I'm not twisting anything, Amy. That's essentially what it is. Otherwise, she could have made a Miss Bates the heroine in Emma's place. Also, she would have greatly lessened the diversity of the characters' faults and lessons learned, greatly simplifying both the novel itself and the general notion of what maturity is.

Oh.

Is that an I-understand-where-you're-coming-from "oh," or an I'm-shining-you-on "oh" ?

Amy ] twist this into a growing up book. In my opinion there is no twisting required! Emma is more than just a growing-up book, even Northanger Abbbey is more complex than that, but Emma is a growing up book, amongst other things. Kali ] I DON'T consider Austen a moral propagandist (life as she writes it is more complex than a bundle of moral lessons!) Kali, I agree with you on this point, it's what I meant when I said I considered Jane Austen to be moral but not a moralist in the Irony and Morality topic. In Eric's absence there be no-one in this group to argue the contrary case. Kathleen ] Elizabeth is amused by other people, and she enjoys her life, but her potential for doing harm to others is less than Emma's, Kathleen you have summed up my opnion on P&P compared to Emma much more elegantly than I could have done; thank you. A few days ago Kali (I think) asked me in chat why I find Emma much less light-hearted than P&P; this is the reason. My view of these 2 books is strongly coloured by the way I look at the central character. One could well argue that many people are badly-off at the end of P&P for reasons social and/or financial, whereas Emma ends happily for most. However the happy endings in Emma arise despite Emma's meddling; she inflicts considerable and undeserved emotional pain on Jane Fairfax, Harriet, Miss Bates, Mr Knightley. The happy outcomes at the end come from the grace of Jane Austen alone. So, I find Emma 'darker' than P&P because of the pain Emma inflicts on others and because of the damage that 'good fortune' (in the shape of the author) alone averts.

I have read that most writers write about what they know and have experienced.This could be the case with Emma and Persuasion but with Pride and Prejudice what I beleive this was the her dream of the prefect man she would like to have married.

After reading through these posts, I think I have figured out why I prefer Emma the least of all of adaptions I have seen. Yes Emma needs to grow up but she lives in a bubble. I never really connected with Paltrows's version of her; I am hoping that Kate Beckinsdale's interpretation will move me more. JA and morality. I strongly believe JA was intensely moral and it is evident in all of her novels. Morality does not have to be preachy or negative. Nor is it simple. If morality were easy to determine, Darcy would have been solely a pompous proud man. Sometimes good people do bad things and bad people do good things. The key was often determining who the bad people were and not judge them but do not have them as initimate friends. Question re ITV/A&E Emma. I posted this one another thread but here it goes. Why are two versions of Emma out so closely together? Is it similar to the Dangerous Liasions/Valmont situation?

I think you're right, Donna... --- Anna, forgive me for recovering this ground, but I'd like to go on record with it...;) The happy outcomes at the end come from the grace of Jane Austen alone. The same could be said for P&P. As far as I see it, had P&P been reality, Lydia would remain a ruined woman, and the rest of her sisters would pay for it in spinsterhood, dependent upon the Collinses for support. To me, this fate is much worse than anything Emma could possibly have brought upon herself. In the case of Emma, Emma is blessed with an unusually small and doting circle of friends. They are hardy, essentially decent people who like and respect her very much, and aren't seriously or permanently affected by any of her childish actions. Emma is rich, well-meaning, and well-loved. And she's a smart girl - she WILL come around eventually, the question is, how long will it take, and how miserable will she make herself before Mr. Knightley gives her the good yelling she needs to makes her realize that she's not as important as she thinks she is? Even at her deepest dispair at offending Miss Bates, at losing Mr. Knightley, and at totally misunderstanding Frank and Jane, her fears are overexaggerated (which is quite natural...especially in young people so used to flying glibly through life without cares). Any heaviness we might feel as readers, it seems, is that which Emma is feeling herself. But then we realize, as Emma does, that the fears are unfounded, we can be happy again, and w resolve to never, EVER again set up ANY of our friends...or gossip...or go on picnics when we're PMSing... ;)

Kali, I think I understand what you're getting at, but we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Emma bothers me more than P&P, possibly because it's closer to some of my own unpleasant experiences than any thing in P&P. It's more an emotional response derived from my own history than a rational response, and thus not susceptible to change by argument. You are right about the picnics though ;-)

Well, I think this thread has attained a most excellent level of argument and discourse! I find myself agreeing with just about all of you, though we might be at loggerheads over some particular points. As far as Austen's morality, I think she is a very _subtle_, even a guerilla, moral propagandist. She is not hitting us over the head with a steel bar like a Dickens or an Eliot; however, I think she makes it pretty darned clear which characters & traits she approves of; and which she decidedly doesn't. If Austen had no moral agenda, perhaps she would have conveyed that Lydia's elopment with Wickham was perfectly fine, and that Miss Bates deserved to be dissed in public for being a chatterbox. However, where propriety, sense, and the all-important understanding are concerned, she remains incredibly consistent throughout all of the six novels. One could say that her moral P.O.V. is practically unwavering. I also wanted to say that I too see Emma as more than just a "coming of age" book -- the lessons s e learns about herself are certainly just as profoud if not more so than Lizzie's: "Until this moment, I never knew myself."

From Kali: ). She can't be her daddy's little girl forever, which brings up the fact that she could end up like Miss Bates, cocooning herself in self-congratulation for her "help" to others, as Miss Bates shields herself from the chill of the reality of her situation through incessant yammering. First of all, in Miss Bates's defense, I would characterize her as admirable for her ability to appreciate the small blessings of her life. I don't sense self-congratulation here, but rather an cheerful outlook in what could be a really grim situation. Emma could do a lot worse than to be like Miss Bates, in some ways. Granted, Miss B is incredibly irritating, and would sorely try my patience. Next, a comment on all of our relative ages. I do not want to offend anyone or make it seem as though the opinion of a 21 year old is worth more or less than that of someone older or younger. Our ages influence our perspectives, certainly, and may contribute to our differences above? Kali, at Emma's age (but more fun, and nicer) sees Emma in terms of the maturing that Emma needs. I'm older (38) but can still relate to Emma's mistakes: do I need to grow up, or can I interpret the lessons of Emm in terms of perception/self delusion, an issue for any age? When I read Emma first (in my early 20's) I disliked her intensely, and found the whole plot to be irritating and disturbing, as it was clear that Emma was endangering Harriet's happiness most seriously. After another 2 readings I have come to like her much more, and appreciate her human frailty.

I'll go with the self-delusion theme, with Anna's ideas about damage, and I think our age does colour our ways of understanding things sometimes, as jane mentions. I also don't want to forget the comedy in Emma. As for gossip and pms on picnics....wish us luck in Aust in Feb.!

Amy2, "coming of age" is not necessarily followed with "unpoignant"! I think the benefit of a coming of age story is that so much can be done with it! After all, coming of age is to understand the situations and motivations driving the society around you. It is the most universal rite of passage that any social being experiences. It is a period of time when general knowledge, morality, politics, and psychology begin to gel together in your own mind. This is the time when you become able to build a fr mework of beliefs, knowledge, and ideas for yourself, and in turn use that frame work to conduct your own life. Life's events and experiences suddenly appear interconnected. It becomes evident that life is humorously, bitingly, fittingly, even, ironic (Thanks, Alannis!). It is a wonderful time, full of high highs, and some very low lows. In general, it is a hopeful, positive time, however. Some of the most important discoveries of your life will be made at this time...but not all! Emma is great beca se she recalls to you your own coming-of-age expereinces, while at the same time reminding you that you haven't gotten everything figured out just yet (thanks again, Alannis!)... The experience in Emma is brilliantly conveyed because in so many ways, it is realistic, universal, even commonplace (even though the main character herself is not necessarily someone we can all readily relate to). As I said before in I&M, the value of experience in Austen is not so much the "lessons learned," but the process of learning itself. I think that Austen understood the value of education through one's own experiences - and others' too, but not to the same extent. I DON'T belie e that she was a guerilla propagandist. Her messages and themes come through clearly enough. THe fact remains, however, that they must share space with eachother, within her "slices" of life. Jane, rest assured that I was not intending to accuse Miss Bates of being self-congratulatory! I was accusing the alternative-dimension Emma of the future of that fault! ;)

I was thinkig of "coming of age" stories in terms of classical mythology/fantasy, along the Joseph Campbell lines. I guess we've just seen so darned many of these in movies & books (STAR WARS, for one; & usually from the Young Man's perspective) that at this point, it bores me completely. I do think EMMA is about a lot more than just a young girl growing up, tho this is certainly an integral part of the story. I'll go with Amy's theme of self-delusion, applicable to all of us AT ANY AGE, as the central trope of the story. As far as Alannis is concerned -- do you think we can start the Alannis Morisette Channel? Cause that's all you hear on the radio these days!!

coming of age : in a way, that makes me laugh, since were learning every day whether you're 7 or 77 :)

That is true, too, Johanne, too true. I feel positively 12 many days.

Amy, you're ahead of me. Most of the time, I feel old & tired.

While searching for something else (a Crowded House article - Hilary ;), I found an interview with Gwyneth Paltrow which you might find interesting. Sorry I can't do those cool link things, but it's at: http://www.theage.com.au/ent/ (Melbourne's The Age newspaper) Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but I don't have time to read through all the above articles. It looks like there are quite a few graphics which I can't see because of my text-only browser. Enjoy.

Hey wow - it does those "cool link things" automatically!

Thanks, Saman...I'm glad you posted that...

'coming of age : in a way, that makes me laugh, since were learning every day whether you're 7 or 77 :)' Much what I was thinking while reading. The traditional 'coming of age' that happens around say 18 - 21, is, as Kali says, a very exciting and mecurial time. But it happens just as markedly in many different forms and times.

For those of you who share my great affection for Mr. Jeremy Knightly (Kali), I have a new offering. I rented PHENOMENUM tonight - and while I've only just started watching the movie, it was already money well spent - there's a promo for EMMA on it! So I, of course, got out my Snappy and have several photos to post to my Jeremy Northam pages (some sound files too - but it was my first attempt at creating .wavs and I didn't do a great job. Did manage to get "Try not to kill my dogs", though).

Oh Kaf! I like that pose and mischievious side-long glance very well! ;-)

Oh, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!!!!

Isn't he a definite contender to an honorary drooling thread here? The demand will certainly rise in next March

Yes Kaffein,this man undoubtedly has got both looks and a look. I particularly remember how becoming those white shirts are to his skin colour. Certainly worth some drooling space. And his body is rather ligth and pleasing, especially when MrBeveridge�s(?) tune is played.Thanks for pic.

Shall we secede and start our own drooling topic, Ladies?

Pretty please

Of course, you are welcome to introduce a Northam topic, here. But maybe Kaf's site could use your enthusiasm.

Okay, I'm going for it...anything for you, johanne...

We can do both...

Pretty please

I just read something of interest in The Hollywood Reporter archives. Apparently, there's yet A THIRD version of Emma in the works -- this from the BBC, and it's another five-part mini-series. It's not scheduled for later in '97.

No way! (re 3rd Emma) Why? Why not try MP or something?

I agree, Amy...

I love JA adaptions, but this will mean OVERKILL!!!

Hey, we should produce our own version. We can have, like, ten of each character in this one...it will get it out of everyone's system for good that way...

I think Emma deserves more than a two hour treatment. I wish it had been the P&P2 team, but I'm open to others.

Maybe we should do an adapatation that combines all six hours, and it can run longer than a double feature of GWTW & HOW THE WEST WAS WON!

Maybe we should do an adapatation that combines all six novels, and it can run longer than a double feature of GWTW & HOW THE WEST WAS WON!

Maybe we should do an adaptation that combines all six novels, and it can run longer than a double feature of GWTW & HOW THE WEST WAS WON!

Amy2, I like the suggestion, even three times :)

Sorry -- I was having a lot of trouble with the Spring at that moment. I guess if you really want to make a point, repeat it thrice!

#133 through 135: Is it really possible to have too many Jane Austen adaptations? Bring them on, I say; they're still preferable to most of what else is out there, and besides, don't we need more to talk about?

] we need more to talk about? hence the DDL drool thread... ;-)

Just spreading the drool around...

I was in a bookstore today and saw an article on the new A&E Emma in (dare I say it) Romantic Times. For all those enquiring minds that want to know I bought it to exerpt some of the article here. It's got four very nice photos of the 2 and a half hour production. "We at RT have seen the critics' screening of "Jane Austen's Emma" and assure you it is a fine and authentic production, quite accurately depicting the lifestyle of the period. You will be able to enjoy the lush English scenery much as it was in Ms. Austen's age (1775-1817) in this version, which was filmed over six weeks in the heart of the English countryside. "Lovers of historic costumes will revel in the splendid 19th century attire designed by Oscar winning costume designer Jenny Beavan.... "The stately homes featured in the production include Trafalgar Park, former home of Lord Nelson, near Salisbury; Sudeley Castle in Gloucestershire; and Broughton Castle near Banbury.... "The village of Lacock, in Wiltshire served as the fictional village of Highbury." (Lacock also served as Meryton in P&P2. When I visited it last summer I had lunch at the Red Lion Inn and saw a letter displayed on a wall from the producers of Emma thanking the village for their hospitality. Shooting had finished about a month before I was there.) The article continues about the food production - had to look lavish and yet still be edible. "Said screenwriter Andrew Davies, ... �Emma is a longer book than P&P. An awful lot of it goes on in Emma's head, so I had to find a way to show her thoughts and feelings and at the same time, portray her character so she didn't come over as just an interfering bossy bitch who plays God! In the end, the two elements had the same solution--we filmed her match-making ideas as imagination sequences picturing couples' future lives together.' "The other major change comes in the latter part of the book which Andrew compressed into one scene. �There are 40-odd pages resolving the various strands which I pared down, putting the essential meaty bits of it into one scene at a harvest festival supper. I'm sure Austen devotees will be a bit shocked at first, but I hope they will understand the reasons for it,' he said. "Sue Birtwistle, ....this time around has joined into artistic collaboration with screenwriter Andrew Davies to co-create "Emma" as well as wear the producer's bonnet. And, along with "Emma" scriptwriter Susie Conklin, Sue has penned the insightful "Emma" companion book, The Making of Emma.

VIDEO RELEASE DATES: A&E EMMA MARCH 7,1997 JN 7 GP VERSION:.......................... APRIL 15,1997 info:http://www.tbvg.com/

JN & GP version....................APRIL 15,1997

Not until April 15? Rats!

Ooh Amy! I really like how that outline frown looks against the white background! Cool!

That's the main reason I like while backgrounds -- no transparentizing required.

Is there a blunder in the Miramax version of Emma? I was reading Emma recently and in my book it says she falls in love with George Knightly. But, in the Miramax version, Emma says "I love John..." Isn't John Knightly her sister's husband? Can someone who has the book also check this out for me? I'm not sure if my book is wrong or if the movie had a blunder. Please E-mail me at narf197332@aol.com if anyone finds out. Thank you. Angie

Emma is referring to her brother-in-law when she goes through the "I love John, I hate John" dialogue. If I remember correctly, this is a result of Emma speculating on advise that John will give George regarding Harriet and herself.