I knew nothing of mine until I checked my Birthdate and birthstone in http://www.gemstone.org/gematic.html and discovered mine (and all ) had their own talismanic gems. Check it out!

How did they know? Amethysts, garnets (and amber) are the stones I love most!

You girls lost me - what's the connection between gems and angels again? (Please speak slow - I'm male)

We have no idea, but go to that URL and put your birthday month and day in the little spaces and hit the submit key. It will tell you all sorts of stuff!

and i created this topic so we could talk specifically guardian angels and keep general angel discussion in its topic. and about that url, how does one guardian angel watch over the many people born on the same date? think it's interesting but am sure we each get our own.

Perhaps we get the one we deserve - like we supposedly get the politicians we deserve...Wanna bet?!

I am searching for relevant web sites and am not having much luck - found the ghetto vigilantes, though!

we get the politicians we vote for based on their empty promises! i think guardian angels are much more substantial!! *grin*

Oook, I also see they are a group of adults trying to get pedophiles. This might just be the hottest topic you ever created, Wolfie! WoW!!!

eeeuuuwww! you know that wasn't the intention of this topic.....

Wolfie, how come the guys I vote for never seem to get elected lately?!

maybe it has to do with electoral votes...we go to the polls but those guys do the real deciding, methinks....

considering they were put into place when only land-owning MEN could vote...I am not surprised...!

hmmm...something to think about. you got politics on the brain tonight, marcia?

Not necessarily - do not like the stuff, actually. It just happened to cross my mind when I was searching for Guardian Angel sites...

so, did you have any luck finding sites?

here's a site i found while searching for guardian angels. it's interesting to say the least, but i don't know how valid it is. haven't gone all the way through the site, but if it does have questionable material (i.e., hate, porno, etc.), i'll remove the link. http://www2.dgsys.com/~jkirk/page3.html

here's a really pretty site on the subject of angels. the link i have here is what the bible says about angels. http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Quarter/2724/angel5.html most of the guardian angel sites we're finding have to do with street vigilantes.

My above Response 11 is the first page of that site which seems to be most about Guardian Angels as we mean the name. I also do not know if it contains objectionable material...I am surprised there is not more on the web about them.

The second site your mentioning in post 18 is most beautiful done. It reminded me of those wonderful turn-of-the-century Guardian Angel pictures you can get at fleamarkets. People had them above their beds. I always wanted to have one but they've gotten very expensive...They often show little children sleeping and an angel watching over them.

There were some very nice copies of reliefs at the Thorvaldsen-Museum in Kopenhagen...Angels carrying little babies.. but they were to expensive for me, too...

Isn't this beautiful? : http://www.goddesses.com/shopping121.html

i checked out the rest of the site in 11 and it's clean.

#22, that relief is beautiful. it won't come out any clearer? that's too bad.

Absolutely beautiful! But, they are all portraying them as women, and Angels are MEN! Every last one of them.

angels were made without sex, i thought. but that does raise a question, why were they all given male names? hmmmmm.....lemme do some reading....

I guess if we wanted to we COULD call them Gabriella, Daniella and Michaela ....

maybe they were just given those names just to call them something. what if they were given gender neutral names that are so popular now-a-days, like tracy, tory, alice (!!), dakota, tyler, taylor, etc....

Or the angel WOLF for that matter!

Good point, Ree. First I called Wolf a him, and William corrected me. Then I thought it was her last name and thought her husband was german...I am so confused...*sigh*

haha!! you're not the first to think me and he! i'm german, the AM is french-canadian/polish and wolf is way tooooooo short to be my last name!

I know....I went back through the chronicles of Spring and found your married name...I'll bet you have to spell that mouthful each and every time you use it! It is very lovely old southern, though!

i have to spell both parts of my name nearly everyday!

Wolfie's name is Elke and then that fancy French business at the end of it, right?

I went from Hemming to Little then back to Hemming again. To Little they wanted to add a y instead of an i so they could fancy it up. Hemming is another problem. For some reason they keep wanting to add an s to the end, even though I am just one Hemming...or drop one of the m's....Ree what was your maiden name? (Longer than Walton, I'll wager!)

No, no, a good little jewish name - Steyn. Marcia, you were called 'Little Marcia'?? That's really cute!

Oh yes, I was called that, but I am 5'6" so I am only petite in dimentions of ands and feet and other things...I told you I had l o n g legs...! David was iki which is Hawaiian for little...and his email still uses that name. The only really authentic Dutchman I ever knew had the last name of Balvoord. I am sure you had to spell Steyn (Like the German Stein? or more like the English Stain?) each time you used it. Walton is such an easily recognizable name. In just about any language!

Jewish name? But I thought you had just converted...or are you returning to the faith of your ancestors?! (None of my business, of course! Just curious!)

Back to the ancestors' faith, I guess. The great grandparents decided to become protestant in order to share in the privileges that protestant whites had above blacks, jews and non-protestants. Selling their souls as it were. In that regime protestantism and fascism inevitably went hand in hand. In trying to be what they weren't they became so radically fascist that it was pretty unbearable by the time I was born into the family. Imagine! Jews suppressing blacks! Identities don't get alot more scre ed up than that, I suspect! Made me turn away from religion altogether between ages 15 and 22. That didn't work either. So in the end I felt the best thing would be to go back to being what I would have been. That's when I converted back, to Juda�sm; things feel as it should now. My sister has become an athe�st, so in the company of strangers we are more or less regarded as walking identity disasters! ha-ha!

Ree, I think you chose wisely. I wish your sister well, but somehow, we do not seem able to do it on our own. I was married to an athiest and they end up calloused to delicate things which conscience makes us think the better of. Perhaps she will see the wisdom of what you have done and rethink her choice. Again, you prove a most worthy sister and companion *hugs*

�smile� That's kind of you, Marci. I don't think she'll rethink easily though. She's a scientist, more of an intellectual than I am. But also a great deal 'nicer' - meaning vulnerable, and I t think it's more or less impossible for one like her to become hard. She's just naturally kind, but felt such revolt at the wrongs she saw done under the banner of religion that she cannot believe it exists now. I think that conscience or lack thereof is something that depends on the individual entirely. My sister is asically a more decent person than I am, and here are alot of religious bastards in the world as well. And who knows, perhaps there really is no God. I sometimes think that whether there is or isn't a God depends on people rather than the truth. I actually learn as much about myself and what I believe from my sister's lack of belief than she does from the strength of mine. It's cool to have such a sister.

I am happy you and your twin have such closeness. She sounds much like me (not that I am claiming all of her loving attributes), but I consider myself a deist or perhaps an agnostic - simply because I do not KNOW. And, I do not know how to know...so I keep trying to be nice and loving and open-minded. I am a scientific sort, as well, and if you look up vulnerable in the dictionary my picture is there as an example. However, no matter your convictions, no one can doubt the horrors done in the name of o ganized religion, and the self-appointed self-righteous of the world will continue to alienate those of us to whom God has not yet chosen to reveal Himself.

Back to guardian angels - why did this topic start? Has anyone experiences? I believe I've met mine twice, but I never talk about it cos ....

why? afraid they won't come back to visit you? if i met my guardian angel, i know i would mess my pants....so just knowing that they're around is enough for me *grin* i had a jacob's ladder dream when i was nine. remember it to this day as if i dreamt it last night. i was looking out the living room window and suddenly a ladder came down from heaven with clouds surrounding the top. Jesus came down in dark blue and dark red robes along with a bunch of angles. He said "Come" and i did. the angels went with me to school and gave me help in art (one of my fave subjects) and math (my worst subject) and there were angels for everyone. after the day was over the angels ascended back up the ladder with Jesus.

(that would be a bunch of angels not angles!)

No I'm not scared - it's more that being English you don't talk abut such things - people think you're wierd. I think that's a lovely dream and it's no wonder it's still fresh for you. Faith and life is (was) much simpler when we're children. I feel quite vulnerable here.

not to worry, maggie, no one will laugh at you here. afterall, that's what this topic is for, to talk about our experiences *hugs*

Thanks. Well, here goes. First I was seven, we hadn't long moved house and I was in bed in my new bedroom feeling very wierd and rather frightened. It was dark and there were lots of unfamiliar shadows. I am sure i was awake and not dreaming. A light appeared in the corner and just sort of grew until it filled the space (of the corner) and everything else was dark. There weren't any features as such but a sort of warm friendly presence, and a 'sort of voice' just said 'go to sleep, I'm here'. So I did and from then on I knew I was being looked after. The second time was many years later when I was nursing and living in the nurses home. A friend and I were concerned very deeply about something, and we had decided to spend a day praying and fasting about it. Sometime in the afternoon we both became aware of a light in an area of the room. It was very similar to my childhood experience, same friendly presence with no features, except my friend also saw it. This time the 'voice' said (to us both) 'get up and eat, you're hungry, it is done'. So, although we had planned to spend much longer in prayer, we stopped and ate, and felt that a battle had been won.

can you say goosebumps? wow, those are remarkable experiences maggie, thank you for sharing them. i've heard calming voices too but they're usually inside my head. it was like praying and being answered with words but only so i could hear. another time i was standing at my bedroom window marvelling at the clouds in the sky and a voice said "you are my child" and it was calming and wonderful.

I've often had that, but only the two times the visible presence. I soon learnt (as a child) that you just don't talk about it though. Even in Christian circles it's not done. In some ways it's more difficult now there's so much on 'guardian angels'. As a child I took it for granted that everyone had similar experiences. I don't know where you're coming from on all this, but I had a pretty regular 'Anglican' upbringing, and had a comfortable relationship with God. (I still do) I also had my own language to talk to him in, and had another strange experience, when I was about five. I was skipping to school on my own singing in my 'language' when I met this black man. Now in London at that time, this was not a common experience. He stopped me, looked at me very kindly, and said 'child, you are blessed'. I carried on to school, turned to look round, and he had gone. From then on I was almost convinced that my angel was black, except he shone. This seems really wierd talking about it!!!!

that's so cool! i think your angel would show themself in a way that you would remember them. i've always been comfortable with God but my upbringing was strict and i always thought God was like my own father-i'd be punished harshly and always loved out of fear. only as i've grown have i learned it's not like that at all. He has blessed me indeed! have always known angels to be real. wanted to see mine in all it's glory but told God that probably wouldn't be a good idea as i'd have a heart attack on the spot! i've always joked with God and i know i've heard Him laugh! (i'm a real punster sometimes)

Me too. I just know God has a sense of humour. He must have to make me anyway!

me too! and do you talk to Him like a regular person? i've never thought that He liked to be talked to as if He were far away. to me, He'd rather us talk to Him like we do each other. well, that's the way it is for me, anyway...

True. Sometimes, I think I'm probably a bit too flippant (is that how it's spelt it looks odd?). I think those childhood experiences certainly made a difference to me. On the other hand I also feel pain at things too when things aren't right. Can't explain, but I think it's sort of the flip side.

definitely think my relationship with Him as a child has influenced my adult relationship with Him. still talk to Him as a child would.

I think that's positive, don't you? Do you think this concept of guardian angels is wider than judeo-christian? If so, why is that?

i think guardian angels exists in all religions. as our talk in geo, perhaps those are the beings that came down from the sky....

maggie, this is most excellent conversation! i've gotta run (mardi gras parade time for me) but will be back so please continue to post your thoughts!!

Wow! I feel left out of the heavenly stuff. Mayhaps I am still being refined or something...

Naah - you must be perfect - we're catching up!!!! *lol*

I am honored and full of chicken-skin at being allowed to share in your incredible experiences. It must be a terrific comfort that if all abandon you, you will never be alone. I am terrified (irrationally, I know) of being alone. Please continue, ladies, as you get the chance!

I think being terrified is a normal human experience, and (as you know me a bit now Marcia) I feel isolated at times. I think the difference for me is the knowledge of a safety net. There's a whole lot of difference between feeling and knowing. I didn't say I never had doubts!

Oh, I totally understand about never having doubts - it is the human condition. I should think it would give you a self-confidence to tackle things the rest of would shy away from simply because of that safety net. You were meant for greater works than those not chosen, I believe. I have always fetl apart from the rest....However...!!!! I remember something! A few years I was just about incapacitated with back spasms and relegated to lying on the living room floor for most of the day. One evening the man of the house went out to a meeting and left me along. I felt very vulnerable and frightened. Suddenly, I was flooded beginning from the top of my head to my encompass my entire being with the most comforting feeling. Nothing hurt, I sat up and the feeling remained for many minutes. I knew I would be alright. It was most remarkable.

Why am I not surprised???

*grin*

me either! it's hard to take comfort knowing that "we are not alone" when you aren't able to see your comforter with the human eye. you have to just believe and that can be disheartening when you feel so far away.

It is, indeed. They must know that, too...

indeed they do....did you see city of angels?

...no...

oh, well, it made me cry...but i don't think angels can fall in love with people. they can turn against God and fall, but in love with a person? are we that fascinating that they'd want to? it's a romantic idea for sure (and who wouldn't want their angel to be nicholas cage?)...don't think he was a guardian angel for her, just happened to be there....

Angels are male or non-gendered in The Bible. I am sure they are not suceptable to human wiles and infatuations. Unless they are inventing a non-Biblical being with a lot of wishful thinking, romance is impossible! (Yeah, I know...kill-joy was here!)

(I had someone else in mind, actually...)

Have either of you read This Present Darkness by Frank Peretti? If you haven't may I suggest you try and find a copy. It's really a novel about what we are talking about. I found it very moving, and amazing that someone else 'saw' things as I did. I don't have a copy at the moment because I gave my last one away to the insurance salesman who we've known for years and who was talking about the same sort of things! From the publicity blurb: Ashton was not a big town, orimportant - just a name on the map. Yet it was here that three very different characters would face the hardest tests of their lives. Marshall Hogan - an ex-city newspaper editor with an eye for a story and a nose for something rotten. Hank Busche - the young pastor of a small church in danger of tearing itself apart. Tal - captain of the angelic warriors summoned to make a stand against an encroaching tide of evil and deception. Each one fighting an enemy that was callous and clever, often hidden, never asleep. And each one needing the others more than any would dare to believe. 'Understanding that this life is not a battle between flesh and blood butwith unseen principalities, our abilities to imagine the spiritual world is crucial. This present darkness is quite a springboard into that arena. I have to tell you the book ISN'T frightening any more than this discussion is, but I found it quite gripping. I have the sequel too.

High recommendation, indeed. I shall look for it!

It was in the Christian bookstores a few years back, but I guess soemwhere like Amazon.com should have them.

I have another strange story for you - but I shall leave you waiting for it while I go and watch a reconstruction of a victorian wedding on the TV followed by my favourite archeology programme Time team.

Time Team is coming to either Discovery or The Learning Channel. I am loooking forward to it very much! I am delighted that you recommend it so highly! *waiting semi-patiently* for your strange story....

it is? (time team) and hurry up, the suspense is terrible!

*not breathing out yet and turning blue and woozy*

"Ancient Voices" (Stonehenge, pyramids, ElDorado, The Holy Grail, Dead Sea Scrolls so far) is a joint effort of the BBC and TLC. I have their brochure in my lap as I type. Looks fascinating!!! A set of books I'd love to have is by Time-Life also brochure in lap concerns The Real Arthur, Dancing with Wolves, The Enigma of Egypt, Tibet's Lost Horizon, Forests of the Vampyer, Greeks, Norse, Romans - sigh! I hope they make videos out of it! I just talked to the house male and he reminded me of the books I have lost to bugs....arrrrrrrgh!

OK *breathe Marcia!* here goes. Setting: mud hut, Gambian village on the night we were to leave the village for good. (Yes it's one of those again *lol*) T and I were in bed. He's snoring, I'm wide awake. then I'm aware that there are group ofpeople sitting somewhere up around the ceiling. (Remember I'm wide awake). These were african men, looking just like any men in our village, sitting talking, not looking at me or anything, but just there. It's so vivid I can see it now. It wasn't scary or evil but just wierd. I realised they were talking about us, and noting the fact that we were leaving. I nudged T and told him to look. He couldn't see anything of course and rolled over back to sleep. We left the village the following day [school kids lined the street out and waved as we drove past. I felt like royalty.]. We stayed in a hotel for a few days before leaving for England. I met an older missionary who had lived in that village for twelve years. We got on well, so rather nervously I told her my story. 'Oh you saw the village guardians' she said, not apparently at all surprised, 'they were just noting you were leaving'. It carries on - we had been looking after the village ducks in a mud brick duck house complete with pond on our compound because people said they were 'safe' with us. The night after we left a black mamba snake came and took three ducks.

Phew! Maggie! It was worth the wait and I am all chicken skin again. You must be super-sensitive to those things like Wolfie is. How lovely to have seen that angels come in ethnicities so they don't worry the "natives" whether they be African, English, Polynesian or whatever. I never thought about that! I should have thought it a tremendous privilege to be allowed to see them.

i don't know how you just laid there and watched this! they must have given you a sense of calm and safety. and that about the ducks, wow! thanks maggie!!

I wonder if it is like the visionaries who are in a state of suspended animation during their visions?! Maybe Maggie could not move?!

No, I was perfectly OK, sane, just rather curious. It wasn't frightening at all. It didn't even seem like a vision just sort of normal!

I don't know about being particularly sensitive. I think it's more like bening aware of another dimension. I think ofit as like the wind. I've never seen the wind as such, but I see it's effects and feel it and therefore believe it's there. That's often used in Christian circles as an analogy for the Holy Spirit or often belief in God. I'm not totally sure what I 'saw' were angels in the sense we've been talking about, although they were definitely spirits of somekind, and they felt neutral although not personal. In fact the overwhelming feeling was the normality of it.

Not sure about that, Maggie. I am super-aware of my surroundings and hear things hardly anyone else can but I have never been chosen to be seen by spirits of any kind.

marcia, they'll show themselves and how do you know they haven't already, in a form that is pleasing so as not to frighten you? maggie, i wouldn't have been able to lay there and watch....

Unless they are the kind strangers who come with the visiting teams or the occasional supportive male in my life, some of whom I have never seen...I cannot think of anyone who might have been these enchanting beings. I will be alert for them from now on!

Haven't you heard of entertaining Angels unawares? *lol* Very biblical I can assure you!!! I think one difficulty with this kind of talk is the tendency to divide into haves and have nots and I don't like that. I checked with husband - he says I am sensitive in the way we were talking about - so I guess I'll just have to accept that. I just don't like being different and don't feel special or anything. Marcia, somewhere else, you said you didn't believe in the paranormal (I know it was in a totally different context), but does belief have something to do with this, as well as awareness? I don't think it's necessarily related to how we're brought up, my family didn't go to church and are not religious at all, yet I had that awareness of God, and for want of a better term, 'the other world' as far back as I can remember. I can certainly sense 'bad things' and that goes back as far as I can remember too. One reason you won't find me in some topics here is because of that. I'm not being condemning, but it's not right for me. I'm thinking with my fingers here, so this isn't necessarily well thought out arguing or even what I'll wish i had said later. Back to what you said wolfie about not being able to lie there and watch. Well, it just didn't feel 'wrong' so I wasn't scared or anything (and I have been believe me). With any of the 'right' things I can't emeber being scared because what was happening felt so normal. I've never been in a trance in my life, or had extatic visions. Occasionaly when I've been praying for someone I get pictures or insights, but again these are always very low key and 'normal'. methinks I am protesting too much!! Shut up maggie.

i know what you mean, maggie, there are some topics in here that i won't delve into because of how i feel about them...and one reason why i haven't opened a witchcraft topic, yuck....i don't feel special, because i dream about angels....this is normal for me, just as it is normal for me to dream about dead friends and animals who come to tell me everything is ok for them. nothing scary about it either. you can be around angels all the time and not even know it (well, you are at any rate), i mean being able to see them. my family stopped going to church when i was a teenager. it was only me going every sunday because i needed to be there. and because i was able to do so on my own, i believe it depended my relationship with God. now, i'd be a liar to feel like i'm all alone, esp. when i went through therapy and felt all that anger. i knew i wasn't alone in my heart, but because no one came in and fixed things, i sure felt alone and forgotten.

I can identify with that. We still need human company,hugs, appreciation etc. I think without it we wither and shrink emotionally. Somewhere within each of us the child we were is still remembered and feels that aloneness, abandonment, and yes, anger. You realise I'm speaking personally too. Therapy can help the child to grow up and be assimilated into the adult, but I think that somehow the scars are still there. Sometimes, just like physical scars from injuries they can get inflamed from rubbing and boy does it hurt! However, as you said, underneath all that we have the assurance that we are loved, and cared for and are not alone. Strangely I found a relationship with Jesus more difficult that a relationship with God. This is a bit away from guardian angels, but I think behind what we were talking about earlier is 'comfort'. I'm convinced that revalations of the type we have talked about are never accidental but always for a purpose. Have a hug!

thanks! needed one (am stressing big time, leaving me anxious)

oh, and i've always taken Jesus hand and hand with God. feel bad sometimes because i'll go straight to "the man" a lot, but that's alright, i know, because they both listen....and it's not far off the topic of guardian angels, because who'd ya think gave them to us? *grin*

i also think therapy can help us bring out the kid in us whom we've supressed because of all the mistrust and betrayal around us, growing up too fast....

Mmm not sure why I had the difficulty. Funny really because my Dad was never close, he had a bad war experience and it affected him. I'd have thought that would have affected the 'God the father' bit. I found a nice 'angel' peom i think you'll like. I'll stick it in Angels for variety!

thanks! my mother was the distant one in my household and i know it had to do with her background. but you still blame yourself, it's a human fault....

Maggie, you are not different - I think I am and I have always been made to feel that way by my very dysfunctional family. This Spring experience is the first time I have not chosen to sit in the corner and be passive. Anyone who accepts me nowadays is an angel to me, You and Wolfie included!

When I said I did not believe in the paranormal I should have qualified that statement by saying it is just because I have never experienced it that I am aware of. My family considered me something like Cinderella without a prince charming, so I always considered myself somehow unworthy. Please do not shut me out. I want to know and see and believe! Please!!!

(*going back to my silent corner*)