Reality and Illusion

~americ Wed, Dec 10, 1997 (23:27) seed

Okay...can we tell the difference between reality and illusion; between heaven and hell; between real and virtual????????????????????????????

~pmnh Wed, Dec 10, 1997 (23:40) #1

illusion (we are voting, right?)

~Wolf Wed, Dec 10, 1997 (23:42) #2

what was the question?

~pmnh Wed, Dec 10, 1997 (23:48) #3

sigh...

~Wolf Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (12:46) #4

think we know the difference and choose to make our own reality.........

~KitchenManager Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (12:55) #5

What if... Depression is normal, Shouldn't happiness be drugged?

~Wolf Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (12:58) #6

happiness is drugged these days (i.e. prozac)

~Wolf Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (12:59) #7

don't think that's what you meant, though (silly me)

~Estaben Thu, Dec 11, 1997 (17:28) #8

I don't think anyone can tell the difference.. We each experience, then label things according to our beliefs and fears etc. How long did everyone believe the sun moved around the Earth? On a different note; Are denial and illusion getting to be synonomous?

~americ Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (01:23) #9

Most of the time we live in our dreams. Is not the first song we learn in school: "Row, row your boart, gently down the stream, merrily, merrily...life is but a dream." So life is just a collection of stories and dreams. We write it as we go along. I suppose there is freedom in this perspective. But it is not clear that we can easly get out of our boxes -- even if we think they are self-imposed.

~pmnh Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (01:57) #10

...I declare my faith: I mock Plotinus' thought And cry in Plato's teeth, Death and life were not Till man made up the whole, Made lock, stock, and barrel Out of his bitter soul, Ay, sun and moon and star, all, And further add to that That, being dead, we rise, Dream and so create Translunar Paradise. I have prepared my peace With learned Italian things And the proud stones of Greece, Poet's imaginings And memories of love, Memories of the words of women All those things whereof Man makes superhuman Mirror-resembling dream. (Wm. Yeats, from "The Tower, pt.3") sigh...

~KitchenManager Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (02:06) #11

and isn't the reality that we allow ourselves our illusions and name those reality? But then, who does the dis-illusioning? And, although not near as well read as you, I certaintly appreciate your quotin', nick

~pmnh Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (02:30) #12

I think that's basically what Yeats was saying... It is tautological, of course, in a way (what else CAN form reality, but our perceptions?... and nothing is proveable, beyond them)...

~Estaben Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (11:02) #13

Given that Yeat's stuff was on the button. Why do so many insist on proving their illusion to be the 'correct' item?

~Estaben Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (11:27) #14

Americ; "But it is not clear that we can easily get out of our boxes -- even if we think they are self-imposed." Perhaps you can't get out if you fear leaving something behind. Like your identity? or maybe your accumulated defenses against the world? Is it fear that is always getting in the way?

~pmnh Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (22:52) #15

mainly fear of incarceration, i think...

~americ Fri, Dec 12, 1997 (23:09) #16

Perhaps you can't get out if you fear leaving something behind. Like your identity? Well....loss of identity can be a fair-some thing. They might lock you up as crazy.

~KitchenManager Sat, Dec 13, 1997 (02:58) #17

~KitchenManager Sat, Dec 13, 1997 (02:59) #18

but what if you have extra identities?...

~Estaben Sun, Dec 14, 1997 (12:12) #19

I speak of the ego identity we think is so important for our survival. The adult. Not the child. Do you take your identity with you when you dream? Is it a fear-some thing?

~stacey Mon, Dec 15, 1997 (18:24) #20

Again, isn't your identity just another manifestation of your reality which is in fact a modification of your illusions and perceptions?

~pmnh Mon, Dec 15, 1997 (19:46) #21

yes. sometimes think, though, that "illusions" are custom-fitted to justify it (identity)... that the integral part of identity is a core-issue, malleable only to a degree... (but i also clapped for tinkerbell, so what the hell do i know?)

~Estaben Tue, Dec 16, 1997 (12:51) #22

With all the musical chair identities out there/here, anybody see a common thread/purpose/theme? Looking for a road going somewhere.

~KitchenManager Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (01:13) #23

Then pick a direction, and we'll follow. Or not. Or maybe we'll all just accidentally wind up at the same place... "The world will end tomorrow. You're welcome." quoted from the Caretaker of the Continuum

~stacey Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (09:58) #24

WER, have you read Donald Bartheme's "The Dead Father?" I think you'd enjoy it.

~KitchenManager Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (12:30) #25

Nope, never heard of it either. Tell me more, or is that what you're getting me for Christmas?

~stacey Wed, Dec 17, 1997 (18:35) #26

A non-traditional journey with some surreal and atypical characters. Interesting. Curious. Odd. The kind of novel you might want to sit down and ponder with a few brews. And I thought you'd prefer something less substantial for a gift...

~KitchenManager Thu, Dec 18, 1997 (01:07) #27

Whichever takes the longest to finish...

~stacey Thu, Dec 18, 1997 (09:43) #28

*grin* Well. You were exhibiting a swiftness problem earlier... if we can get that under control...

~KitchenManager Thu, Dec 18, 1997 (10:19) #29

So, we'll wait and see, huh?

~stacey Thu, Dec 18, 1997 (10:24) #30

Oh my. I'm having all sorts of illicit thoughts! Which frightfully has come solely from public correspondence. What on earth might happen when we meet? I guess I'll just rely on my self-control.

~KitchenManager Thu, Dec 18, 1997 (10:27) #31

~stacey Thu, Dec 18, 1997 (10:31) #32

*sly grin*

~KitchenManager Fri, Dec 19, 1997 (11:04) #33

*knowing wink*

~stacey Fri, Dec 19, 1997 (14:19) #34

*discreet pinch*

~KitchenManager Fri, Dec 19, 1997 (15:23) #35

*reciprocal press*

~stacey Fri, Dec 19, 1997 (18:21) #36

*slight moan* *ear tickle w/ the tip of my tongue*

~KitchenManager Sun, Dec 21, 1997 (01:45) #37

Ongoing example of illusion, ya'll... Now, where were we?

~americ Sun, Dec 21, 1997 (15:54) #38

Off and on, I have been thinking about doing an "InfoTheatre" event. Light show. Three computers. Projectors on to the walls. CyberLove skits. Couple meets in cyberspace -- lots of mind heat. Then they actually meet. Interesting twists are possible. Reality and illusion can play a lot here.

~Wolf Sun, Dec 21, 1997 (17:54) #39

It would be neat to meet the faces behind the words, but scary too, don't you think? What would be really neat is to guess who is who, rather than wear little stick on name tags.........Hmmmmmmmmm

~KitchenManager Mon, Dec 22, 1997 (00:39) #40

Do you want us naked, too?

~americ Mon, Dec 22, 1997 (12:18) #41

Depends on the group. We could have special "screens" to allow people to "see" only what they want to see.

~autumn Mon, Dec 22, 1997 (13:46) #42

That would be fine if wer agrees to leave his x-ray glasses at home.

~Wolf Mon, Dec 22, 1997 (18:55) #43

think he'd set it up so we'd have to see everything! (Probably have someone else pose for him-heehee) Wer, you'd better start workin' out, baby.......

~Wolf Mon, Dec 22, 1997 (18:55) #44

(Oh, I'll be there, for sure-at the gym, I mean)

~KitchenManager Mon, Dec 22, 1997 (23:55) #45

How do you already know I need to work out, Wolf? Autumn, sometimes the right clothes are better than none at all. (Actually, in fact, most of the time! Especially in my case...)

~autumn Tue, Dec 23, 1997 (16:31) #46

They do say clothes make the man.... As far as the gym goes, you work in a restaurant, right? How much self-control could you possibly have surrounded by all that shrimp scampi and tirami su?

~Wolf Tue, Dec 23, 1997 (21:51) #47

No joke! Don't you ever get sick of lookin' at all that food? Have heard from many people that after working a restaurant, they could never eat out again. (But I agree wer, definately wear clothes, something, a potato sack, but not the birthday suit, no way!)

~Wolf Tue, Dec 23, 1997 (21:55) #48

And Americ, you're gonna hafta give some of us time to make ourselves presentable!

~KitchenManager Tue, Dec 23, 1997 (23:51) #49

Depends on your motivation... Sometimes, eating out is research, at others it's relaxing and fun, like a musician appreciating another's work. And yes, the self-control at work comes from being around it all the time. One does become jaded at one's own establishment... I promise to wear something, althought I should get to meet Stacey this week or next, so no more surprises there...

~stacey Thu, Jan 8, 1998 (17:26) #50

were you surprised? and, for everyone else's benefit, he did wear clothes!

~KitchenManager Thu, Jan 8, 1998 (19:40) #51

as did she, the whole time, dammit!!! (still gots my fantasies, though...)

~KitchenManager Thu, Jan 8, 1998 (19:43) #52

As to your question, (I back tracked after the last response...) yes, very pleasantly so...

~stacey Thu, Jan 8, 1998 (20:30) #53

How were you surprised, what did you expect? (BE honest)

~KitchenManager Thu, Jan 8, 1998 (21:09) #54

Honest, you wound me... Haven't we been painfully so with each other so far... (if I do, will you?)

~stacey Thu, Jan 8, 1998 (21:15) #55

are you avoiding MY question????? *smile*

~KitchenManager Fri, Jan 9, 1998 (00:14) #56

Right here in front of the gods and everybody? And that's the deal, I will if you will. Take it or leave it.

~KitchenManager Fri, Jan 9, 1998 (02:04) #57

~stacey Fri, Jan 9, 1998 (18:13) #58

That is not an explaination of what you first thought of me!

~KitchenManager Sat, Jan 10, 1998 (21:50) #59

Maybe not, but it is an accurate summation. First thoughts: This is hard to remember because of the circumstances...Ok, neither your voice or your accent did justice to the preconception in my head, but I adjusted quickly enough to that. However, your choice of words over the phone was greatly appreciated. Appearance wise, I liked the casual dress because it relieved most of the tension I was feeling because I was in my "kitchen attire." More, or can I stop now and you take a turn?

~KitchenManager Sun, Jan 11, 1998 (02:04) #60

~Wolf Sun, Jan 11, 1998 (23:27) #61

and, was this an example of reality or illusion? *wink* I know I've had my share of illusion lately (at no other fault but my own)

~Wolf Sun, Jan 11, 1998 (23:28) #62

(and wer, i wear safari, just in case you were curious or if you were wondering what the hell that smell was *grin*

~pmnh Sun, Jan 11, 1998 (23:33) #63

here???

~KitchenManager Mon, Jan 12, 1998 (10:31) #64

Not sure yet, Wolf, on the reality vs. illusion thing you asked. It is a very appropriate topic name for this discussion, no? (and thanks, I thought my nose was going haywire, and if you knew how big it is, you'd understand the depth of that problem*wink*)

~autumn Mon, Jan 12, 1998 (17:52) #65

I think I prefer illusion, Wolf. I find reality highly overrated.

~Wolf Mon, Jan 12, 1998 (21:55) #66

yeah, but at least with reality, you know what to expect (most of the time)...get the hard, cold facts right in front of you....though i do indulge in illusion as reality gets a bit too predictable (esp. my reality). Wer, who wants a perfect nose anyway, at least you have character (and this is a high compliment)--BTW will try not to overpower the room with my stench! *wink*

~KitchenManager Tue, Jan 13, 1998 (17:15) #67

More answer, Stacey... wasn't expecting the banter outside of the anonymity of this place...that was a very pleasant suprise. Now, it's your turn.

~stacey Thu, Jan 15, 1998 (17:38) #68

sorry... unintentional loss of network connection for a few days! No perfume WER. I don't wear it. My expectations of you were, as I said before, not physically tied. I was neither surprised nor familiar with your presence but I was a bit taken aback by the initial shyness! Once you were out of your work atmosphere, it was hard not to call you WER as you seemed just like you are here. Funny, witty, dry and a little somber. At KL, it was hard not to call you William. A certainly different environment!

~KitchenManager Thu, Jan 15, 1998 (23:02) #69

here, I can be me... nowhere else am I allowed that... the shyness came from not wanting to but in on you and Terry(Paul), I warned you that I'm not a social animal...I do appreciate the compliments, you are too kind... so, do you want to continue the inquisition?

~KitchenManager Fri, Jan 16, 1998 (00:58) #70

Yeah, KL was kinda weird... Zoe is gorgeous though, isn't she? (sorry, it's a dad thang *shrug*) as for calling me WER or William, after much thought, William sounds unnatural when spoken by you, I prefer you to call me WER. And, I do miss hearing you say, "Fair enough." In fact, whenever I hear that phrase, it reaches my brain in your voice. And I had to be somewhat shy at work, as you kept insisting I commit a firable offense. You're such a bad influence...

~autumn Fri, Jan 16, 1998 (12:28) #71

Is Zoe your daughter, wer? How old?

~KitchenManager Fri, Jan 16, 1998 (13:33) #72

Yes, ma'am. She's four.

~autumn Fri, Jan 16, 1998 (13:49) #73

4 is a splendid age. My younger daughter will be 4 in April, and I recall it being a smooth, calm year for my older girl

~KitchenManager Fri, Jan 16, 1998 (15:15) #74

Smooth and calm would be good...

~Wolf Fri, Jan 16, 1998 (19:31) #75

Autumn, April what? My daughter will be 5 on the 12th.

~autumn Sat, Jan 17, 1998 (16:01) #76

Lydia will be 4 on April 3 and Juliette will be 6 on April 25. She is forever asking me why her sister's birthday is first when she was born first. I try to explain that her birthday is 11 1/2 months earlier than her sister's, but she doesn't go for it! Is your daughter entering kindergarten this fall?

~Wolf Sat, Jan 17, 1998 (16:01) #77

yes and I'm already worrying about it...........

~KitchenManager Sat, Jan 17, 1998 (23:32) #78

Hiya, gals!

~pmnh Sun, Jan 18, 1998 (02:56) #79

(those are beautiful names, autumn...)

~KitchenManager Sun, Jan 18, 1998 (09:08) #80

What be the names of your children, Wolf?

~autumn Sun, Jan 18, 1998 (21:37) #81

And yours too, Nick? (thanks, by the way, I always liked the frou-frou names)

~pmnh Sun, Jan 18, 1998 (23:43) #82

my daughters are named nicole (nikki) and erin... sons too numerous to list...

~stacey Mon, Jan 19, 1998 (17:03) #83

My kittens names are Tahja and Rafikki. They'll be six months on the 28th. (sorry, the impulse to conform was overwhelming)

~pmnh Mon, Jan 19, 1998 (17:06) #84

(those are beautiful names, too... origins, please?)

~stacey Mon, Jan 19, 1998 (17:40) #85

Recurring dream about a tiny kitten started about 1 1/2 years ago. In my dream the kitten's name was Rafikki. Odd as it may sound we decided to look for Rafikki rather than find any cat and give her the name. Took us almost a year. She had a sister in the litter that Brandon really became fond of. We took both Rafikki and her sister but had to wait a week until we discovered her name. Tahja just fits her personality. She is pristine and mischevious, never aloof. Both kittens adore people and, despite their growing size, insist on perching on shoulders when we are cooking, reading, sweeping... anything! And they both enjoy showering. Tahja will jump completely in, Rafikki won't walk under the spray but will sit to the back of the tub. A roundabout explanation of where their names orginated. The brief one would be... they just are.

~pmnh Mon, Jan 19, 1998 (17:53) #86

that is a lovely, enchanting story... (and rather unique, must say... first instance i've heard of recurring cat dreams... don't know what freud or jung would make of that...:)

~autumn Mon, Jan 19, 1998 (22:14) #87

I like Rafikki, it reminds me of that mystical baboon in the "Lion King." My sister-in-law is very intuitive about identities also. She sensed her truck's name is Silver Hawk, and her trailer is Moongazer. Her own name is now Brightstar.

~stacey Tue, Jan 20, 1998 (18:14) #88

*smile* I asked my kids today what they thought their names meant and whether or not they thought their name fit them. Only one student (Kyle) said he didn't like his name and didn't think it suited him. He would prefer to be called James.

~autumn Tue, Jan 20, 1998 (20:20) #89

Wow, that's interesting...usually it's the girls who hate their names and want to have whatever is the most popular name (I myself yearned to be a Tammy! Now I am so glad I'm not!) Are you going to start calling Kyle James from now on?

~stacey Thu, Jan 22, 1998 (16:32) #90

I told him to take 48 hrs to think about it. If on Friday he still wants to be called James, yes, I will make an official 'amendment' to my grade book.

~stacey Thu, Jan 22, 1998 (16:37) #91

I figure there are few things these kids can change about their lives, or have any control of... if the name helps... we'll use it!

~autumn Thu, Jan 22, 1998 (16:57) #92

It may make all the difference in the way he looks at his life.

~stacey Thu, Jan 22, 1998 (16:59) #93

*fingers crossed* let's hope it helps!

~TIM Sun, Nov 22, 1998 (21:35) #94

Ok stacey, what happened to kyle or james?

~jgross Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (12:27) #95

and think of the pygmalion effect of this: "I figure there are few things these kids can change about their lives, or have any control of" what if a teacher would figure there are many really important things kids can change about their lives, or have total control of.

~TIM Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (12:52) #96

And there is the other side of that too Jim. What if the kids ever figure out how much they can change.

~jgross Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (12:58) #97

They would be the new pygmalions. And I bet it would sure work, and then the teacher would go through some heavy changes about their own teaching potential.

~TIM Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (13:05) #98

They would for sure. Some of those changes , they wouldn't want I expect.

~jgross Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (13:13) #99

Don't pig out on those pygmalion expectations around any teachers though, Tim. It might turn 'em back around to lowered potentials.

~TIM Mon, Nov 23, 1998 (13:28) #100

It might at that. and then again it might spur them on to higher potential.