Hey, WER... funny you should mention He/She/It/Them/Us... I bought a really good "Biography" of the Devil at 1/2 Price. I'm almost finished and I'll bring it to you shortly.

yeah, i've got a copy of nixon's memoirs, too...

*chuckle*

You beat me. I was going to create a topic called "Mammon" to follow "God". Devel will do. I have thought about the devil. I often equate the word with the sanskrit "samsara" or illusion. It's just the path of illusion. And, illusion, by and large feels real, or it would not be illusion.

i dunno, americ... perhaps the darkness is merely separation/absence from God/light, but i believe it to be as "real" (as tangible) as anything... (and how else can you explain bob novak?)

And, besides, in usual usage, Mammon refers to greed...

yeah, that's true, that is the modern understanding... originally conveyed anything not of God, which by extension becomes of the Other One...

You're starting to sound like a Southern Baptist, nick...

no, i've got more hang-ups than they do... (as you know, that bunch really swings) i'm what you might call celtic-christian...

Cu Chulain as the Christ? Or Diana as Mary. Hmmm... Can just here Bing Crosby singing, "I'm dreaming of a Druidic Christmas".

*roflmao* very nice, wer...

of course, mary (in that scenario) would be viviane, or rhiannon, or the lady of the lake... (and bing is irish, you know...)

Must have gotten them all right. Still can't transfigure Cernunnos, however... (oh, hell, I might be part Irish, huh? really believe its Scottish, though... Pictish would, of course, be the coolest... But then again, I can usually pronounce Welsh...)

i'm pictish-scotti...(of the tuatha de danaan)... it's all the same blood, though... don't know if cernunnos is pictish (though prob. not, because there is no pictish written tradition)... she is the goddess with a rack, correct (of the horned variety)? don't know what she represented, though she sounds like some kind of fertility goddess (though that could be natalie influencing me)...

Every period has its miseries. The misery of our time is the so-called philosophical justification of evil. Our ancestors, too, knew human fraility, but they did not canonize disorder; and when they yielded to the unhappy inclinations of the flesh, they did not place it, with the august name of Reason, on an altar. We have progressed, and the justification of evil brings, now-a-days, its natural consequence--the restoration of Satan, who first committed evil, and inspires it in us. from Appendix C. The Devil's Advocates in the Nineteenth Century of The Devil Does He Exist and What Does He Do? by Father Delaporte of the Society of Mercy

has jim bakker read this book?

(sorry, don't know what that means, either) just 2 points, each of them sort of obvious (as mine invariably are)... first being, inclinations of the flesh are not necessarily unhappy, nor can they necessarily be postulated as being "evil"... and, though some inclinations are undeniably so, these are only manifestations, i think, of larger "evil" inhabiting host/manifesting person (not talking "the exorcist" here, you know what i mean)... and second, evil's always been among us, as has "satan"... he just uses better p.r. people now... in so very, very many ways, our times are superior to those of our predecessors... any student of history can tell you that this era, as poorly conceived as it may otherwise be, is a vastly easier one to inhabit (for most of us on this planet) than probably any other... (which does not, of itself, justify it, i realize, but still merits consideration)...one thing that comes to my mind is the treatment of/life-choices for women... i have 2 daughters, and the idea of any man (other than me, of course) telling them (just kidding) what to do, think, be, etc... makes me crazy... they are precious to me, and the very idea that their life experience could be inhibited from their births is repellant... yet, if i did not live in this era, t'would undoubtedly be the case (and i would probably pass my remaining years in prison...which is still distinctly possible, i do concede)... the flip side is the dimunition of standards, which permeates this american epoch... "liberation" implies such for all... it is indiscriminate, and applies equally to mediocrity, which our species replicates, and nurtures, with something akin to enthusiasm (and with appalling ease)...truly is, like don henley (a prescient irish-texan, after all) said, "a graceless age"...

Thank you nick! will have henleyisms spinning in my head all morning -- not a bad way to start my day! About satan. I do have a few problems with everyone focusing on him as the personification of evil. It is within all of us. Evil that is. And those who fall victim (if I may) only heed more of the dark side than some. Satan did not start out all bad, he was just overcome by a few longings (hell, aren't we all!) and never resurfaced. I'm all fer the rest! and in such case as mediocrity can be related to evil --- public school systems are on the backend of their fall from grace! BTW, I'm not all that coherent today, if you couldn't tell from the indiscriminate babble. Today would be the last day of school before winter break. All have been anticipating it... four VERY weary days... but chocolate will make everything better... i just know it... one more day... just hours away from rest...

he's a shriner, too (most people don't realize that)

more... Milton, and English poet of lofty genius, but thoroughly imbued with the spirit of the so-called Reformation, in his great poem "Paradise Lost," painted the demons, and especially their chief, as of grand and beautiful physiognomy, although not attempting to excuse them. Literature and the Stage caught up Milton's idea, and, carrying it still farther, re-opened the gates of heaven to the Devil, disguised as an interesting victim. "Long live hell!" (Vive l'enfer!) cried the slayers of priests and the demolishers of churches in 1793. And that savage cry has more than once been heard at the period of more recent social commotions; it has been raise, in Switzerland, as a war-cry against the Catholics. But all is eclipsed by the versification of the thinker who has written the "Contemplations." The philosophy of M. Hugo reduces itself to metempsychosis extending to all. All suffers, but all is going helter-skelter to joy. We must love all, esteem all, even the worst scoundrels; there can be no exception-- but the race of devotees.

Was the Lucifer, God's favorite angle? He just had a great fall.

Don't know if he was God's favorite, (is He able to do that?) but Lucifer was up there in angel ranks. Guess he got a big head and God put him in his place. Course, Lucifer didn't go alone.

That's the popular version of the mythology, Americ.

and more... According to him, the instrument of crime, and the bolt that secures the criminal in his prison, alike share his sufferings and the sufferings of his victim. Pity the prisoner, but pity is the bolt. * * * * * * The axe suffers as much as the body; the blood Suffers as much as the head, O mysteries from on high! Thanks to these sufferings, (very mysterious, truly!) every criminal makes his own punishment. And the thorn, Caiaphas, and the reed, Pilate... Cry out to the Adorable Being... The vulture says to the sparrow in the shade: Pardon! Of their crimes the stones are heard to accuse themselves, And, under the softened eye looking down from above, The whole abyss is but one immense sob...

lemme guess who's side you're on.........oh, wait, you were there! That's right. So tell me how it really goes ;)

First, if you would sign this for me. Here, use my pen...

and more... Before this immense sob of vultures and stones, of the wicked become shrubs, and axes saddened by the bloody trade they are made to ply, divine justice must feel itself disarmed. "Universal softening is the prologue of universal reconciliation. Hydras shall be seen emerging from the abyss, with stars on their foreheads; horns shall be changed into aureolas; claws shall hold palms; the damned shall go up to heaven, Belial at their head; finally, Jesus shall embrace his brother, and lead him to God."--(Louis Veuillot.) Both shall be so beautiful that God's own flaming eye Can no longer distinguish, delighted Father as he is, Belial from Jesus!

having a christian upbringing always makes me think, good ol' lucifer was called the angel of the morning, how then can a god so good create evil, would not be more like a child questioning his father. Though more a theological question, perhaps an anology Jungian idea?

God likes questions, though. Lucifer was trying to be God.

he wanted what God had, is that such a crime?

no, but he coveted. (never heard Lucifer called "angel of the morning")

Yeah, but would you think it has something to do with dualalities. Its son of the morning Isaiah 14:12.

Sinfear -- perhaps, you might not mind if I bring back the top of "God" I retired for a while. IT is a difficult one -- but I think it has a place in philosophy.

Yeah that would be a cool idea,

Until God comes back to Philosophy, I'll post this here... To this day God is the name by which I designate all things which cross my willful path violently and recklessly, all things which upset my subjective views, plans, and intentions and change the course of my life for better or for worse. C. G. Jung

and more... Very good for M. Victor Hugo! The Supreme Intelligence so dazzled that it will no longer distinguish the Holy of holies from the worker of all evil! And yet there are people who read this blasphemous nonsense, and do not say: "It is absurd!" The restoration of the invisible disgraced one is become, in the unbelieving world, as sort of accomplished fact, big with threats for the future. But a word on the two best known advocates of poor Satan. The first is M. Proudhon; the second, M. Renan.

Too bad this topic died...it is very interesting...but today. when I am beset with devils, there is no one around with whom to discuss the subject. Is anyone alive on Earth besides me? Is there really a point to all this? Why?

...and what is more demonic than pronouncing someone unfit with whom to talk, discuss, exchange pleasantries...be civil...cruelty!

Ahh nold's new movie is about the satan coming to New York at the Millenium to find a bride and father a child. Hey, not a bad pick gals, he's been around a long, long time, he has a steady job and he wants to have kids. Could be worse picks right?

End of Days

...but, Terry! He sounds so monotonly stupid. I think I would have a real problem not throttling the guy or just walking away out of sheer boredom. He may have all those vacant-minded good-lookers. Give me someone with a great mind. That is very sexy, indeed!

Marcia... why so down on Thanksgiving day? And why did you spend it alone??

In retrospect, I had two choices that I was aware of. I could have spent it at the Civic hauling stuff around (heavier than I need to be hauling)in preparation for the Basketball Tournament starting the following day, (that is where my Inconsiderate Other spent his day) or I could have stayed home and talked to my son for a few moments. He now has the love of his life on board and he rightly spent his time with her. I chose the latter, and while waiting for the evening banquet to begin, I discovered that I was the only human life-form on the Internet. I should have buried myself in a good book, but instead, got lost here and felt really alone. Other years I have volunteered to feed the homeless at the Salvation Army. I will NOT spend another holiday alone. Thank you for asking.

(sorry I could not put it into words better than I did - but I was truly miserable and there is no way I can think of to describe my feelings...)

Marcia, a couple of days ago you said - Is anyone alive on Earth besides me? Is there really a point to all this? Why? - Sorry, i'm not throwing it back at you :-) but it really rang a bell. It's stange isn't it to sit at a computer, linked to the whole world and yet feel so alone. I guess that's my idea of 'hell' in a way, isolation. I found a graphic a while back which portrayed two desert islands with a guy on each sitting at a computer. Sorry I didn't pick up on this one on thanksgiving or I'd have loved to talk to you!!!!

Thanks, Maggie...I really appreciate your kind words. I don't usually get that far "down", but I did that day. I will surround myself with interesting things to do for Christmas because it will be another holiday without my son and others I love. However, I am an upbeat person normally, so I will stay out of Philosophy for the rest of 1999 and come back only when I have something of value to contribute. Thanks, all, for your thoughtfulness.

(((((((Marcia))))))) I've been offline for two weeks for surgery -- just got back here tonight. I know that loneliness you speak of, and it's profound; it pushed me to realize that for myself, being lonely at the computer keyboard was a way of running away, into distraction, so I didn't have to walk through my pain. I hope it's not that for you, but if it is, I'm willing to talk about it.

(((((((Nan))))))) Welcome back! I was just about to hunt up an email address for you so I could enquire as to your well-being! It is and unfortunately I cannot talk about it here. I know your email works so I will talk to you there.

Glad you're back, Nan. Tell us more about what's going on!

Thank you, Paul. What's going on is slow healing and lots of clumping around on crutches (can't bear weight on my left leg until the end of January!) -- and this weekend, trying to finish grading tests and papers so I can turn in fall semester grades by the 23rd.

'Tis a familiar lament heard throughout the land. Usually, it is preceeded by student wailing and trying to cram a semester's worth of work into on night.

When do you estimate you'll toss the crutches away?

I hope they'll give me a green light for walking by the end of January.

My goodness, Dear! That is a long time. Hope they got it right! Take care. It is so good to see you posting in here from time to time. *hugs*

I hope so too, moonbeam. I'm pulling for you to be walking in the new Millenium.

thanks, you all! :) i'm really feeling so much better now, it's hard to not cheat and sneak around the house without crutches.

Oh, Behave! (I know all about that - high twitch factor in me!) We are delighted you are feeling so well. No ice skaing for a while, though, please! *hugs*

Speaking of ice skating, one of my new roommates at Quail Creek is manager of Austin's Northcross Mall ice skating rink. The other potential roomie, coming by tonight at 7:30, is a lady who is the sports medicine therapist assigned to Major Applewhite, James Brown and took care of Ricky Williams. She's a swim instructor so naturally she's interested in the house with the pool.

Terry, do you know how to pick'um or what?! At least now we will not worry about you so much with all that in-house expertise. You work on the building and they work on you...How sweet it is! It's about time something good happened to you this year!