The thing is that we keep "forgetting" the wonder of existence and awareness over and over again. So we constantly need to remember.

don't mean to sound arbitrary, but that is wholly a matter of perspective... owing entirely to our lack of understanding... what i'm saying is, isn't "wonder" an inevitable casualty of introspection? doesn't it kind of wear off, as we become inured to what we (believe we) understand? (maybe it's just me, but i rarely feel that anymore)

nick, I would agree that "the wonder of existence" is purely a matter of perspective and a phrase often used to conjure up emotions of 'not understanding' so we may sit back in wonderment on the same note, different tone... I spent the day hiking alone off Mt. Falcon with a borrowed camera. We received several inches of snow last night but the sun was bright and the wind calm. As is often the case, I soon forgot about picture taking and wandered off into my own little existence... and was grateful if not amazed. *centered smile*

Yes, Stacey, I believe an indiviual/soul can be all good, all bad, or anywhere between.

the soul is the bottom line, it's what we do with the messages it tells us. but as for wisdom? don't know where mine went, lost it today......

"Went into the bar at 3 am, seeking solace in a bottle, or possibly a friend..."

"...what help is here? there is no help, and all these things are so: and all the world is bitter as a tear. And how these things are, though ye strove to show- she would not know..." (swinburne) (i dunno, it just popped in my head)

"I wake up in the morning and I step outside, and I take a deap breath and I get real high, and I scream from the top of my lungs, 'What's going on?'" Four non blondes, the other was Indigo girls (i dunno either, same thing, *POP*) have I driven everyone off with the melacholy, Nick? figured everyone would be used to it by now...

no, we're just worried about you... lately, it's just seemed a little deeper, maybe, than melancholia... just wanta be sure you're okay...

here's the general formula for me... no sleep plus no food equals depression, depression plus time to think equals state of assholiness, I've gotten used to saying whatever on here and it is hard to remember sometimes that I shouldn't do that, apologies around, just ignore me next time 'cause it is not crying for help, or attention, just looking for some sort of focus and trying to let some of the demons out as I can only handle a few at a time...I really am sorry everyone

you all are safe, and my largest collection of friends, being an ass here doesn't screw up going home or make work worse...I know I've said before that I'm not a social creature (asocial and antisocial I've got down though), and a lot of times when I'm being really crappy there is usually some person that I want to talk to the most, and when circumstances are such that I can't, things go even further downhill, I'm very analytical and shoot for the worst possible scenario so that hopefully I won't be surprised at how bad I've screwed things up between us, thus self-fulfilling my own destructive prophesies... I try sometimes to issue warnings about how screwed up my thought process is, but lately it has hit me that I'm just trying to avoid responsibility for my particular sociopathy, did, however, get back on the vitamins yesterday, and I think that the two Shiners didn't hurt either... *smile*

ah... the Indigo girls. glad you're on the road to typical abnormalcy, WER! Lemme know when you need that Rocky Mountain High...

thanks, Stace... *wink*

Think we all get a bit like that wer. Especially when we think things aren't going the right way (at least what we would like to see). Since I'm a leaper, let me offer this, always wear a parachute! *wink* Don't jump until you know all the particulars (like wind, elevation, landing site, and when to pull the cord).......

good advice however, I tend to respond more rashly. at least I'm not prone to leaping out of high flying situations. Mine is more of a get in the car and see how many state lines you can cross before you have to stop for another Big Gulp

well, wer, if you try stacey's way, wear a seatbelt, have plenty of gas, and plenty of bills (NTM, rest areas!) (Stacey, i don't mean literally leap-can't figure out why folks wanna jump from perfectly good airplanes)

Can't imagine wanting to bring that kind of chaos into your life....

Have had those urges to get in the car and go. Thank goodness my job sends me to school twice a year. Love the drive (not being in the car that long) just being able to drive and stop when I want, listen to what I want, have the windows all rolled down and singing at the top of my lungs!!

What kind of work do you do? What kind of training do they send you to--and where?

(chaos is what's real though, don't you think? everything else a carefully manipulated illusion... perhaps the thing to do is learn to, i dunno, appreciate it... like, go with it... or don't... i dunno...)

government contracting, Autumn. Since the field is constantly changing, I go to classes on a regular basis. March will be Norfolk Virginia. hi nick

hi... what's doin'?

nut'in honey.....you?

uhhh... i be chillin'... (velvet underground..."jesus")

i be's sleepy. changed some stuff at my site, go and check it out, y'all.....

Chaos Rules! Long live Entropy! (Next time you go, Stacey, drive by and pick me up...)

almost left last night and, from previous experience, when things get THAT bad they either get much better or I leave. we're working on much better this morning. I took your advice (general comment) nick, and let it all out. Nothing saved, nothing reserved, this is how I feel. And oh my...

(sigh... i hope that's good)

yeah... kinda like scrubbing the gravel out of a road rash wound... gotta be done and you'll feel better for it in... (a couple of weeks?)

excellent analogy... to be willing to endure that scrubbing is indicative of love, or high character (or both)... either of which elicit envy, 'cause i've not yet been willing/able/ whatever to sit through it... couple of weeks seems a small price to pay, i guess (though that's easy to say... the gravel's not imbedded in me)... godspeed to you, ms vura... hope you come out of the other side of this thing soon...)

hi

(you say that now...)

(yeah, what're you hiding behind your back?)

(everything i can)

heehee

thanks nick. for the kind words and kind thoughts.

(any time)

HI! My name is Ri�tte - I've only been going in to the Bront� conference, but I enjoy outrageous philosophical talk, so here's my opinion on wisdom: It can simply not exist. I think wisdom has a great deal to do with honesty with oneself, and this honesty is a very inconsistent character trait in even the best of people. Wisdom must therefore be an illusion, created by those who speak great words, and seem authorotative, who drown their ignorance in impressive words and gestures, thereby having their ignorance seem wise judgement to others. Honesty can exist some of the time if we accept the challenge it presents, but wisdom is beyond our human capabilities.

i like the view that wisdom has a great deal to do with honesty with oneself but i disagree about it being a very inconsistent character trait. it is a character trait that one must work hard to strive for but it is aattainable. perhaps striving for that trait has something to do with becoming a wise person.

in some circles, Riette, your pronouncement on wisdom above would itself be considered wise...

My first response is to Ray: Ray, are you honest with yourself all the time? If you are, I hereby declare that you must be an angel or some other kind of unwordly creature. I too strive for honesty, and though I am honest with others - because I dread my being found false and perfidious by others, I am far too human to be honest with myself all the time. Therefore I posess no wisdom.

TO Wer: If you happen to be one of those who might consider my pronouncement on wisdom wise, then I am sure that all I have written, and all you have written in response is merely a fragment of your imagination . . .

no, i'm not honest with myself all the time. but, i try, and i think about it all the time, and i think i know most of the times when i am *not* being honest with myself. the contemplative life is the wise life.

inre #142: that's as valid a belief as any other... now if I could just get everyone who believes that I exist to stop, I might get caught up on my sleep...

You guys have to stop 'coming' two at a time . . . you flatter me, and I don't like flattery - there's another topic for discussion; I shall go open it. Anyway, Ray, I admire you your contemplative life, but it merely proves you to be a good and virtuous person, not neccessarily wise. A question: Are you honest because you enjoy it (which is essentially against our human nature) or because you want to plant your mind above injuries? Be honest with yourself now . . . WER, some persons, when something is beyond their reach will present the matter in an impertinent or curious light, and so would have their ignorance seem wise judgement . . .

I am wise enough to know that there are times when it does not behoove me to be honest with myself.

excellent point...

You mean you are sensible enough . . .

What is wise and what is sensible is often the same, no?

Uh-Uh. What is sensible and rational is often the same. There is no such thing as wisdom, remember?

Oh, that's your reality....or doesn't that exist, either?

SURE it does - but I'm not wise enough to prove it. How do you define wisdom, Autumn? Great thoughts, great words/deeds?

Following my intuition.

Sounds good . . . in theory. I can more or less believe that following their intuition can work for some people - and you sound a sensible one. Frankly, my intuition frightens me! I tend to rely on what the head says - and even that turns out to be a disasterous decision at times!

Wow--you can't rely on your reason or your intuition? Bummer!

Nope. I try to rely on reason most of the time, but often emotions get in the way. And if I think, ah, perhaps I should now rely on my intuition, the warning signals start flickering in my head, and I switch to auto-pilot - reasoning. I suppose that is why wisdom cannot exist for me - I mean, if one can't even decide when to follow the heart or when to follow the head, then one cannot possiply be wise. Do you always, always rely on your intiution, Autumn? How do you manage it - I mean, how do you know it is 'right'? Or am I too obsessed with what is right and what is wrong?

I think I must be a naturally intuitive person and am very atune to auras. I cannot explain the process of knowing what to embrace and what to avoid.

And so what are the rest of us supposed to do? How do we know when to follow the heart or when to follow the head? How can the mind know when to follow the heart or when to follow itself? I mean, if the mind follows the heart, does this not mean the mind denying itself? And how can the heart follow the mind without abandoning feeling?

compromise.

You mean doing things halfheartedly and with half a mind??

At the same time?

no. not at all. do you and Mr. C often agree on everything to the same extent? Do you ever have to bend in one area to be compensated in another. Sometimes you have to use your head to know that it is time to think with your heart. Sometimes, you have to use your heart to really figure out what the result will have on your head. They are too interrelated (in me anyway) to separate fully. I do tend to think with my heart but my head knows that this is my tendency and can step in when disaster strikes.

I like the way you put that, Stacey.

Yes, perhaps that's where my problem lies - I tend to draw a clear, straight line between the two, THEREBY denying the one or the other. And therefore often make the wrong decisions. Can't believe I was unable to figure that out for myself - moron! Thanks, Stacey!

Your welcome Riette, I think. (glad you're back)

Yeah, me too - just feel sorry for the rest of you.

why would that be, Riette?

Oh, I don't have to explain, do I, Wer?

nope

is it wisdom or intuition, or something completely different, that helps us interact with those we care for most? (for if it is either, I am surely lacking)

Why do you say that, Stacey? You seem to interact with people just fine - or have storm clouds gathered over the Vura-household again? I don't think wisdom plays ANY role in relationships - if it did we'd be sitting in a pit of desperation ALL the time, not just some of the time. I think it must be the very fact that we care that helps us interact - but don't take advice from me please, I'm a real bummer at interacting at the moment, as I think you might have noticed . . .

an honest question... and perhaps a storm or two brewing...

Well, it happens. Sometimes it just has to. But I'm still sorry to hear that.

Riette, wisdom plays an important role in any relationship. You have a lot of wisdom. It might be easier for you to understand this, if I give you another name for wisdom: "Common Sense". When a person's time comes they have to die! There, THAT is the only thing that HAS to happen. Everything else is changeable.

Do you think that it is because everything is so changeable that one is never satisfied with anything?

YES!!! The grass is always greener. By the way the grass is greener works on cattle. If you want them to eat something that they don't particularly like, put it just outside the fence. they will eat it all.

That is also the best way to ride a donkey. You bind some carrots on a stick, get onto its back, and hold the stick so that the carrots dangle in front of it's nose, but just out of reach. Then you just point the stick to where you want to go, and off you go! It really really works!

Unless the donkey gets mad at you. and decides to get you off his back.

That's what happened with my donkey.

He only threw you off, because you gave him cooked carrots, Jim!

After he threw me off, he came over to me and put his 2 hind hoofs on my chest and started pressing down, so it was hard for me to get these words out, "Now I feel like a cooked carrot." He pooped on me. My face didn't like that. But he left me alone and walked off and away towards Hawaii or North Korea or Netscape.

Well, may he get blown up by a volcano for doing that! You shouldn't let donkeys DO that to you, Jim. Next time you have to be ready for him! The question is: what will you use for amunition? Remember, this is poop you're up against!

down against. wish I coulda gotten up. donkeys sure can put alotta oomph weight on their hind legs. and boy do they move fast when they gotta take a poop. I am glad I didn't have my big fat mouth open at the time.

Eugh! What a picture. Kick the damn donkey's ar$e! That'll teach him!

or get you knee deep in more $hit...

Better watch it, Riette, Donkeys kick back.

I'd rather be kicked that $hite upon!

I mean: I'd rather be kicked THAN $hat upon!

What about being kicked into the manure, Riette?

Nope, that would not appeal. I'll make sure I'm facing a chocolate fountain.

Riette, just make sure that it is the right kind of chocolate.

As long as it's sweet, I don't care about right or wrong.

Ok Riette! let me rephrase that. Make sure that what looks like chocolate, IS.

Well, I'd HAVE to taste it one way or the other - I'll let myself be surprised!

UGH!! What a surprise, Riette!

As long as it's a surprise! Won't go for something rough textured - one musn't go LOOKING for $hit! So to speak....

Good point, Riette, It pays to have a positive attitude.

ha-ha! What now? Do you have any philosophy regarding wisdom? Or does wisdom lie in the experimenting with foolish things?

WoW what Insight Riette. I do have a belief about wisdom, that it's common sense and the second half of your answer would also apply.

That despite knowing it's wrong one should try it anyway, just to be sure?