Wisdom: a way of seeing ourselves and our world that ... hmmm let me think some more about that.

wisdom is not easy to define. perhaps it cannot be defined at all. Lao Tsu is said to have written: "The tao (way) that can be told is not the enternal Tao (Way). The name that can be named is not the eternal Name...."

Hmmm... Afraid I must hold with Waldo: "The wise- through excess of wisdom- are made fools." (or something like that) And- along the lines of another thought Waldo held- if consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, might Wisdom be described as that of the intellectually myopic? What I mean is, are men even capable of recognising genuine wisdom, or truth, much less holding it? The older I become, the more such things seem to be ignis fatuus...

The older I get, the less I seem to know. Socrates -- for all his faults -- started out believing that the only wisdom he really had was "knowing that he did not know." Plato even suggested that people where not even ready to "do" philosophy until they past the age of 40. It does take a little while to realize how little we know. So what is the value of such consideration in the first place?

I found Hermann Hesse's Siddhartha's words interesting when he said wisdom is not communicable. The wisdom which a wise man tries to communicate always sound foolish; knowledge can be communicated but not wisdom.

Perhaps, it is like being a young child who cannot talk, but can point with its finger at something. Only with wisdom, that which is being pointed at has no specific words that "say it." What is the sound of one hand clapping?????????? P.S. I love Hermann Hesse's Siddhartha.

I look forward to rereading it someday.

Wisdom is knowing enough to abstaing when you know you really have no idea what is the question, nevermind the answer.

So, perhaps, _not-doing_ is an aspect of wisdom.?.?

Knowing when to and when not to.

This "knowing" must be a different kind of knowing from the kind of knowing that we have, say, of when someone is in this room?.. yes...no?

Is there someone in this room? (just wondering)

That would depend upon how you believe.

To paraphrase David St. Hubbins, I believe, basically everything I read (it makes me a wiser, more aware and discerning person than one that believes in nothing, or only some. Of what he reads, I mean)...

Often I believe what others say is their own truth, not necessarily mine -- does that count as believing or not, IYO?

I see that we are starting to come to the question of "truth" -- I think I will open a topic for that, now.

Wisdom: Knowledged gained through experience. And the definition doesn't discount those who are "wise beyond their years." Often one may take another's experience and garner knowledge from it leading to furthering his own wisdom.

Yes. Yes. Actually, I somethings think that some of my children were just born wise. Then, later, they "forget" their wisdom.

Did they actually forget, or just misapply their new knowledge?

Well, I don't think they had any knowledge yet. Perhaps, the wisdom they had got covered up with knowledge. I sometime say, that we must forget our "knowledge" in order to get back our wisdom. Wisdom is a higher order of integration than knowledge. By the time we have "knowledge" we are already broken into fragments. (Man...Am I making any sense any longer????)

Who is willing to spout their 'thoughts on wisdom' when those thoughts are not so popular? How much do we miss out on when our own minds will not even consider big changes? Why couldn't the contemporaries of Leonardo listen and learn, and where would we be now if they (we) had listened? What is it we fear about big changes? Perhaps we do not want to let go of what we feel secure in. Maybe that is why humanities social structure changes sooooo slowly.

Well....Steven....I think the answer to your question is that it seems that most "big changes" just lead to choas. And, choas is not a pleasant thing. One needs peace of mind, rest. Resistance to change may just be an expression of the desire for peace of mind and rest. Change, by itself, is not a good thing.

"wisdom is age, there are no old fools"

sometimes i hear that it is difficult to tell a wise person from a fool. sometimes the most foolish thing we could do might just really be the wisest thing in the end.

Someone was hung on a cross for just that.

Yep.

Americ said; And, choas is not a pleasant thing. One needs peace of mind, rest. People can change real fast when everything is changing in the right direction (relative). It can even be chaotic and they don't mind.... Its the fear of quick change in the negative direction that makes us such scaredy cats. (How do you spell that anyway?). Its sort of like having to let go of everything again, to get ready for the next event. Maybe we are afraid of letting go of that 'old stuff' again.

We, as a, so called "civilized society", live in fear of changes. Fear is a insecurity one has with oneself. So therefor we conform. Conformity can be good, but most of the time it works against a person. No longer does he or she act on implulse. A wise man or woman acts with truth and harmony to others. They will be rejected by people. But that comes with the territory.

Yeshe What happens when your truth is not someone else's harmony? Do you still express? Or do you hold your truth in judgement as non-expressible?

Complete truth in time shall be expressed in fullness... If that makes any sense?????

Yeshe, I understand what you said. How long are you going to wait? Seems like if you wait long enough, it will never happen. I don't mean to rush you though.

Steven -- Waiting/not-waiting. Not-doing/doing. Not always clear what the difference is. If one pushes too hard -- the universe sometimes comes back and just pushes back. Sometimes, doing-nothing, waiting, does everything in the fullness of time.

100% agreement on that Americ. But when the time is right... do we always speak/do? That is our/your dilemna? Harmony between you and the rest of yourself. When the soul speaks/does,.. so does Americ. And when the soul is quiet, Americ just relaxes. My views, The only way I know to get better and better at that is by staying in the heart, and out of the head (old paradigms there). Then letting go of fears. So when the soul wants to play a part, I don't dismiss it as an 'inappropriate thought'. Sometimes, ego created laws, rules, ethics, morals etc.. Created for the purpose of keeping our fears out of sight (ineffectively), get in the way of doing/speaking. It's difficult to find your fears, when the 'utopian world' won't show them to you. Well engineered personal and global armegeddons seem to work well.

Well said, Steven.

Staying in your heart, as you put it, and out of your head to improve yourself and to let go of fear, seems to be a paradox. What is the heart? I assume you are using the heart to describe gut feelings, emotions, and instinct. Fear is an intregal part of these things and thus your heart, are they not? It would seem easier to use your emotionless head to lead you in rational decisions than your heart. What about anger in the heart? Anger is apart from fear and is from your heart. Without the guidence of the "head" or intellect what is to stop you, or ME, from killing someone? Have you never had a fit of rage so violent murder seemed to be a viable option? I have. But it was my intellect which prevented this while my whole heart wanted nothing but blood. So is it trully best to listen to the heart and ignore the head? By guiding my behavior with laws and ethics I am neither ignoring my emotions or masking my fear. My intellect can pursue my emotions without action (such as murder) and only in thought, safely (for other humans). So if a world of lawlessness lead by the heart is what you seek, lets bring on the anarchy and divulge in the bloodfest, perhaps you will obstain from it, but I surely will not. Personally, I vote for "head" ethics. --I'm new here, hello everyone. Jon

Hello Jon, and welcome to our little philosophy corner! I think there is a semantic problem? The 'Heart' as some use it is really just a focal point. It is also called by some "the center'. The place is just behind the breastbone. If you will feel in that area (not visualize), you will pull your 'awareness' out of your head. When successful, and it does take practice, you won't now what is going on in your head, because you won't be there. ( After a time, you might here a voice, or see a picture from that place. It is sometimes called the phone jack of the soul. Though techies give it a URL. Need more info?

About the rage so bad to violently murder, yes, but only towards myself. It is my "heart" that always stops me, because of what I would make others feel, not because of what they would think.

wer, you're starting to worry me... are you okay?

That is another very loaded question, nick. Right now, the alcohol and "medicine" is kicking in, so mellow is starting to rule. What's you're favorite form of catharsis, nick?

that's a loaded question, too... usually begins with a lady... catharsis can be a tricky thing, though... must be able to accept it as it is...

just listening...

Nope, you're here, join in.

by all means...

not feeling exceptionally wise today actually. But I am feeling good: in control, and headed in positive directions. Sometimes its not what you know or who you know... its when you know.

today...i am feeling under the whether.... so i don't think.

hope you feel better soon. I know the weather here is pretty durn low. Snow, snow, and more snow with no sunshine (a rarity for Colorado)

Americ Sometimes big changes in life require the body to shut down a little. Could be its just change.

think that wisdom comes into play when one knows when to follow the heart and when to follow the head.

hmmm... there are other imperatives, you know... (and sometimes wisdom is no more than recoginizing one's own fallability) (and knowing, too, when it's time to get the hell out of Dodge...nowhutimean?)

isn't that what i said? but, haven't lived as long as you =O

nor are you likely to, my sweet...

Yikes!

Wisdom is when the heart and the mind are in complete harmony with one another.

Yes...Yeshe...I agree with you When my mind and heart are in complete harmony That seems to be wisdom for me these days This is what I have always wanted the most all my life

Don't think it can be labeled, It is much more than wisdom isn't it?

Yes. No words for it.

Sort of tells us that the really interesting aspects of life have been experienced so rarely, that no words have been put to them yet. At least not in our culture. Maybe new ideas,words and dissapearing concepts of duality will change our language,

Maybe we need to keep on creating new languages as our experiences get deeper. That has been one of my interests in Sanskrit over the years. It has a powerful set of words for states of mind/spirit.

give us a sample

om tat sat Could mean: "you are that" or "I am that" or "God is THAT." or "This is it." We could spend days on this one.. We could even create a topic around it.

Could mean all of the above in an integrated sense.

Yes. I think you are on the money, Steve. (and ... Steve, ...is that Octagon spa still out there in Rimrock?)

It is as eternal as experience itself. But, still isn't hooked up. bummer huh. We have more complaints about that....

Sorry to here that. Perhaps, we did fail, and I include myself, to built true community. It requires far more wisdom than I have to help make that happen. IT seems like grace to me when it happens.

Wisdom, I like how Athena was born from Zeus's head whole and complete thereby signifying age and a wealth of knowledge. But I also like the idea of the fear of God in the hebrew texts being the beginning of wisdom, the awe in the omniscince of a God, for ever, I think meditation is therefore a key to wisdom, such as what philosphy means love of wisdom and philosophy takes part in discourses.

Yes...I find most of my own wisdom these days in lots of quiet time. And, I find myself saying less and less as time goes on. "Be still and know..." it is written.

When you are still and know you can observe everything as it really is, true reality. Knowing what true reality is and seeing it, brings wisdom. AT MOMENTS!!!!!!!!!!!

the very idea of being acquainted with any "true reality" is frightening as hell...

Nice to see ya back, Yeshe! Even if for just a "moment"!

Why thank you, you are very kind !!! Reality is very scary. But we must face it in oder to accomplish the things that we dream and hope for in life. It can be frightening at times and at other times it is wonderful.

as often as i've said- and others, too- "poetry is truth"- (and it ought to be)- what truth can any man know? images of life, filtered through prejudice and expectation; musings of death- colored by fear (and very practical implications). and love- is (even) love a truth? can it ever really be? it is not a proveable thing- a plaintive sigh, a catch of breath- ephemeral, at best... but that is the thing- the crux of it, well proved- every thing a man holds true vanishes, in the end as it had never been... (i think that's reality)

Ahh, trancience, the major theme of every novel of import, according to my 12th grade English teacher!

Do you think she was right?

Of course, but does it really matter?

What does matter?

In what context?

Nick that is a beatiful poem. And I agree poerty can say so much with such little words. And a comment about the end of the poem that everything true to man vanishes, this is quite true. LIfe works in cycles. What may be true to you today may be just a false thought tomorrow.

the thing is, though, that's all you can really count on... you can fill your life with whatever you wish, love whatever, whomever you wish, attempt to achieve the same- and all you can really count on is that you can't count on anything, for very long, before it dies... and i'm not saying that necessarily detracts from everything else- and there is much, of course- it's just that it colors everything, enough, as it is...

Nick, this is off the topic, but why do your posts always read as short little sentences?

hmmm.. not sure what you mean, autumn... you sure about that? (lol!) (i dunno... maybe it's like a diminished-capacity kind of thing...)

OK you little smart-ass computer geek, I'll figure it out myself! (eventually)

He got used to talking to Wolf. She posts like she's in a chat room, and Nick picked that up to keep up with her. It's easier to read and scroll through lots of responses, also. Or not...

I have been spending more time in silance since the holidays. A great thing to "do". We get flashes of our true nature below the surface of all the passing things.

The true essence of one's soul will always be the same.

If the 'true essence' will always be the same... do you believe in fate? destiny? that an individual (or his soul) can be 'bad' as opposed to good?

*dodging question*

*throwing question out again*

*still dodging* Hiya, sweetie, we're on at the same time!!!

damn, I guess I just missed you last week. Howya been?

odd

I do believe in fate and destiny. No soul is born evil. But we are humans not saints. We must over come fate to accomplish our destiny.

overcome fate to accomplish our destiny... Sheesh! Yeshe, that's pretty heavy.

Ain't it though. There is no way in avoiding our fate. It happens and we get over it. What ever it may be. We benefit from our suffering.

the old "what doesn't kill us makes us stronger" approach? I believe that's different from overcoming fate but a difficult proposition in its own right.

i guess that is true, and beautiful in it's way (the "high and solitary and most stern" beauty attached to things we cannot change)... but it really really sucks...

*smile*

Life is beautiful.

Life is awesome, too.

miraculous! (ok, got my two cents in *giggle*)