so far, so good!!!

yeah well, already had my first request. to delete a couple of topics.....

really? who'd a thought?

no joke!

none? not even a dirty limerick?

my creative juices aren't flowing right today, sorry.

hey, Wolf, before you delete topics, will you please let us know because you deleted stuff I wrote that I don't have a copy of...

it's in the archives, sweety, i retired them....i had stuff in there too, and it was so nice of the person who requested the deletion to think of us....

okay, so how do I look at it?

gotta ask terry. didn't kill anything. my guess is in a file something like spring.net/archives.html, i dunno.

Don't think I'm going to open this topic in art!!!! No, it's okay, I will, otherwise I have a feeling Wer might do it FOR me!

look... i only requested that poetry i'd posted be deleted... there was no animosity, no bad feelings of any kind, involved in that request... i've posted at other boards, and as a matter of course the poetry is only displayed for short periods of time... no longer do i post anywhere that archives my stuff, because- as i told you- the idea of my words lingering like spanish cyber-moss on the net creeps me out... some of the things i've posted, particularly here, are intensely personal... and- as i also told you- i have a bizzare relationship with words... they affect me, excessively no doubt, in ways that are probably difficult for others to understand... realizing this i apologize... but only because you obviously do NOT understand, and i regret that... as much as i use them- words, i mean- and as much mileage as i often get from them, it is surprising to me sometimes how completely they fail me when it matters... please, simply try and see that nothing i've said or done was intended to hurt... it's just the words, you know? they- some of them- are real to me, regardless of how neurotic or unnatural or whatever that may be... and the idea of some of the things i've written- and you know which things i'm speaking of, i'm sure- being left behind, to be disparaged or trivialized by those that don't know me and didn't know her- well, that is upsetting to me, even if it is illogical, and even if you cannot fully empathize with my feelings, or even agree with them... it is how i feel, and that i do not apologize for... because i owe... i'm all that's left of her... she deserved one hell of a lot better, one hell of a lot more, but i'm all there is... and no matter what the cost, even if i cannot create the kinds of lyrical monuments for her that i would wish, i can ensure that she never be disparaged, dishonored, whatever, because of my clumsy attempts at doing so... if you knew her, you would know... you'd see, you'd understand... but you didn't, and all i can do is ask you to please appreciate my feelings... and to understand, once and for all, that i meant, nor mean, malice to you, nor to anyone else...

(shit... first stirrings of post-poster's remorse)... (sorta like the deer poem, mystery girl)

elke... im sorry if you found the request (to delete my topic) selfish, or rude. i realized that my topic, or even his (nicks), though i shouldnt really speak for him, wasnt just ours and ours alone. other people put into it their words, and their thoughts, and their poetry and i can see why you and other people would be offended when i, or he, ask for them to be deleted. i understand what nick feels, about his writing and how personal it is to him and i feel the same. so, im asking, as he is, to just del te me. us. him. no one else. it has nothing... NOTHING to do with anyone else. there is, in my conference, a peice of writing, from... leplep, i think it was, and if he wants, i could copy that and give it to him, if he doesnt want it erased along with my conference. i know there are some of nicks poetry in there, but im sure he has a copy of each. if anyone else has written something in there that they want saved, i can do that. ill go there and save it. or you can keep them there. or put them in another conference. or anything. its just my writing that i want gone. and, i know i s id it befere, just thought id repeat myself... it has nothing to do with anyone else.

excuse me, folks, but it was not taken personally. since i retired the topics, there have been requests for pieces written there. that is still available to those who want it. nick: don't think anyone would've desecrated your writing, nor anyone elses. and in the future, if you have something you want to say to me, do so in email, please. this isn't the place. poetry is not just written for one's own self, it is to be enjoyed. if you don't want anyone to misread it, for goodness sake, don't post it on a public conference board. and again, on behalf of myself and the other poetry readers/posters, we're sorry you feel this way. please find a place to continue your work, they were very good.

I don't think that that is what was meant, either, there was a personal piece I wrote in one, and I thought it was gone...you see, for all I can remember, once I write it down, it is out of my head, gone...so when I thought that piece was irretrievably gone, I just wanted to let Wolf know to issue fair warning so that anyone may retrieve their words...unfortunately the way this place is set up, the ability to delete specific posts is turned off, you gotta wack the whole topic. I wasn't upset at Wolf for bouncing the topic (what is now retired is probably better off forgotten anyway...), or upset at anyone for wanting certain things deleted. I wish some things I've said weren't open for public display...but I said them and will deal with the cost of my freedom to speak. This does not mean that I don't understand about your all's points of view, either. I hate reading or listening to the "experts" talk about what someone's writing actually meant way after said person is dead...read it, enjoy it or not, but don't go digging throught it looking for flaws, or hidden meanings, or an antiquarian's idea of the historical context one should have to truly appreciate the writing. Personally, I feel the only fate worse than death, is a biography... now, everyone's friends again, right? and don't tell me you leavin' the Spring for good, Nick, 'cause you about the only sane male outside of Terry that posts on this place... and I have really enjoyed and appreciated your work, Paula, and hope to be exposed to it again at some point... and to you, Wolf, I apologize. I meant no harm when I asked for fair warning and am glad that you agreed to hostess this conference.

(poster's note: post 16 should be read before post 15...Wolf is just too damn fast...)

do ya need to? gotta warn you though, I'm in a weird mood...

yeah? me, too! (and yes)

goin...

beat ya, mr. man!

Topic 19 of 23 [poetry]: Constructive Criticism for Your Host Response 8 of 23: Wolf (wolf) * Sun, Jul 5, 1998 (22:46) * 2 lines it's in the archives, sweety, i retired them....i had stuff in there too, and it was so nice of the person who requested the deletion to think of us.... (you're right, elke... some sentiments are best expressed via e-mail)... as far as the hazards of posting my stuff on public boards... well, again, you're right... i won't do it again, not in any place where i don't have absolute control over it... thank you for the practical demonstration re: why... wer, of course "still friends" and all... didn't know (wasn't sure) re: the ability to target specific responses for deletion... did find the poem you were speaking of, and mailed it to you (hope you've received it)... it just never occurred to me when i posted my poetry here that it would be here permanently... i'm glad you understand... (thanks)

Paula, I got mine---no need to copy it for me....thanks....your mystery will never die, as long as I'm alive....I plan on bein' alive through the year 4068. Nick, I see what you're sayin' about the effect words have on you---quite intelligible; and it felt good to see you saying you like your writings in a temporary setting (that attitude just appeals to me)---I like to post poems in non-poetry topics (it's not the same feeling as a preference for temporary posting, but it's outside standard procedure, for some strange personal or subjective or demented reason). Wolfie, I can see your new hosting role is going through some tough challenges for you, as you are someone who wants to care for everyone's different best interests. In this kind of emotion-packed situation, it's easy for each of us to feel the pressure and to say things that will step on people's toes or cause some or all to wince. Of course, this is the place for that kind of thing to happen---constructive criticism (and reactions to it) isn't always perfectly constructed. It makes sense to me that e ch of us responded the way we did.....it's an interesting experience to respect that. Couldn't a whole topic be copied to a file outside of Spring, then delete certain responses from it, then copy the remains back to this space right here where it says "Enter your response in the area below:", then click on the 'Submit response' button, then archive that?

Oh, come on!!! Stop patronizing Wolf! She had all the right in the world to react like that - just because she was the one being criticized doesn't mean she can't defend herself, for heaven's sake!! Everyone has the right to criticize another, but just so does the one being criticized also have the right to defend him/herself - what on earth is wrong with that? - yet alot of you people have a major problem with that. I mean WHAT? People can't always just say, oh, thank you so much for telling me I'm this and that even though it's not true, and I should have done this and that like you would have done it, how very kind of you to point that out, and you one hundred percent right, EVERY time they get criticized for something. Have they no right to explain their side of the story too?! Have they no right to have and express an own opinion about the matter? Oh no, I forgot, having an opinion that happens to be different just makes one selfish and egotistical around here. If Wolf felt she was being criticized unfairly in this case, I think she was absolutely right, because I thought so too. I merely tried to stay out of it because of unpleasant past experiences with just that sort of thing. But i won't stay out any longer, no matter what you or anyone else thinks of me. All I have ever seen of Wolf has shown me that she is kind, and considerate, and not the sort of person do just do things in her own interest all the time (if you want to accuse someone of that, then here I am - if you have the guts to take me on). Yet from the moment she became host here no-one could be bothered in the slightest to show her the same kindness and consideration she hands out with such ease and grace to others, and that I very much criticize right now. It would have been a hell of a lot more helpful to her if people could actually be of help instead of just telling her about all the things she was doing wrong. You people think you can just jump in and criticize left and right, and hey, everyone remains friends all through it - as long as the one in that position takes it without complaining and standing up for him/herself once in a while. NO, then you're only too quick to get on your little horses, playing the poor unfairly treated one ever so convincingly. Well, I think that should stop. Not all of us around here are crawlers, and for that I applaud you, Wolf. If we want to criticize others, then we should also be prepared to BE criticized. Wolf, I am sorry this topic has turned so unpleasant for you. Just want you to know that you have ALL my support ALL the way ALWAYS. Jim, it's just my luck that you had to be the last person to respond - this is not directed against you specifically; but seeing as I'm in your black book anyway I decided that responding at this point wasn't going to make much of difference, and I just had to. I couldn't bear it any longer.

take YOU on????? (who in the hell are you?) you and emily (BRONTE, for crissakes) have been here 2 1/2 minutes... and already... christ, listen to yourself... you have no idea what's going on here (but when has that ever mattered, right?)... well, you and emily (bronte) have a nice time here, okay? elke... really sorry... hope you get over being mad... but that (just posted above) was precisely what the hell i was talking about (when i wrote you)... ugghhh, you know?

You know, Nick, that's exactly, precisely the sort of reaction I expected to my response, and it merely proves my point about those who criticize so easily not being able to take being criticized themselves. And you obviously only bothered to read the bits which could potentially threaten your fragile ego - didn't bother to read the rest of it. Sorry, I don't think I need to have an idea about poetry when I see a person being treated unfairly - I will jump in, because THAT IS who the hell I am. I can't stand seeing a nice person like Wolf get treated unfairly. But I think we both agree about it, so let's have truce for her sake, and make this conference a pleasure for her to host.

Cheesecake??? Have no idea how to bake it, so some people around here will think me out of line expressing an opinion on it, I'm sure; yet that will not deter me from saying that I just LLLLUUUUUVVVV cheesecake. Just the sort of thing to soothe the temper too. Which reminds me of something: Nick, you accuse me of expressing an opinion on something I have no idea about, yet you express pretty wild opinions on persons (Emily Bront�, who by the way is considered a VERY important figure in English poetry, as well as me) - both of whom YOU have no idea about. Doesn't that kinda devalue the whole statement you were trying to make about me? Wer, hand me some cheesecake - it's flarin' up again, I think. Yum-yum, that's better; tastes like flesh almost - do you put coriander in it? YUM-YUM!!!

Nick, Paula, Jim, WER, Elke... thank you for sharing your poetry with us. As sad as I was to see the emotion and the smudges of the past evaporate into cyberspace, I am happy to have been exposed and thus so deeply affected (in more ways than one)to your vivid pleasure, pain, ecstasy and heartache. The emotions were real, they made me think, feel, want and desire. As you may, or may not, have noticed, I have been far too insecure and possibly even selfish to share personal works with you... because either I don't trust all of you or else I value your collective opinion too grea ly to risk sharing more parts of me. (Oddly enough, I believe the latter may be a bit more accurate). Anyway, thanks. Your thoughts will never be abused in my heart or in my mind and I will keep some of those emotions very close for years to come.

Emotions that attribute negative motives (or actions or reactions) to others are sometimes very difficult to express constructively, am I right? When those kind of emotions lash out vehemently they can often tend to cause a backlash of the same provoked emotions in others. Short term, that may be quite satisfying to get that release, for example we might feel we're communicating tremendous honesty. Long term, it may leave a mark that can produce a negative influence. We can learn about this together and mature together. I'm not saying we should, I'm asking does anyone else see this as a positive? I would like to suggest that when any of us feels real incited about something that bothers us, that we try a few things at that time: We could begin by seeing if it's possible to move into a perspective that is cool, calm, collected and friendly. With a certain amount of humility, we could first try to understand, then try to be understood. We could stop and ask ourselves, "How can I say this constructively? How can I put this proactively? How can I do that without neutering what I really feel, and yet be able to show in the words I use that I care about and respect the other person or people I'm talking/writing to?" Anger is a very volatile energy to shoot from the hip with, and just one alternative (among many) might be to instead simply state what we feel are the issues from all sides, then state what is upsetting for us about those issues with the desire to be one contributor among many to the solution, a solution where we would like to do what we can to help jointly arrive at beneficial results, and to help them be borne out of fairness and understanding. We can feel that the issues could take a little talking out (that we can't vanguish the problem with one slashing group of assertions or convictions) and that we might like to kindle well-disposed (non-agressive) cordiality as the responses go round in the talking out of it. We can see that those who see things much differently from how we see things, we can see that as being a natural healthy result of how we're all living through very different experiences in life. When we see negative, pumped up (or even trumped up) emotions in another, we can be the first to take the initiative to offer a peacemaking gesture, then proceed with the rest of our response, without then attempting to place expectations or pressure on their heads to conform to acting (or saying) what we want them to. If our responses are clear and specific and connect up with the facts by not playing loose with our logic, then the others listening will be enabled to follow more easily what we're attempting to say and mean....they can more likely respond receptively, though not necessarily agreeing with us, of course. It can be seen as important to be sincere and concise and to carry that to the others with a certain innocent poise and mercy, while being firm, forthright, and somehow conveying a genuine desire to reach out in a fellow effort to bring to the table what is good, in the way of progress and solution. We could even try listening with our hearts to the other's heart (you mean even when we're hopping mad? Surprisingly so, especially then). We can ask them how they feel about what we just said, rather than just telling them off. If we do right to others, they might do right to us. Ya gotta do unto others like you'd have 'em do unto you. These things take practice and some reflection and some gradual development over the long haul. I gotta long ways to go with it, myself, I know (we all know). Are we learning together about this? Are we interested? Do we have markedly different viewpoints on this? Hello, I'm Leppy, I'm purty new here.....as you can see, I'm only just adding another dot to the background of the newspaper photographic image....I is only a leeetle part of the picture....ya didn't know that, either?....so good to know.

no need to apologize to me, nick. riette, stacey, leplep, wer (yes, i will take a piece) thank you for your support. this is NOT the place to air our grievances, especially when each person only has their own side. yes, i was quick about taking out the topic, silly me, i thought it was something to be done quickly (per your tone, nick) and in doing so, i forgot about all the other pieces in there and wer called me on it. so let's just stop all this damn bickering. alright?

if any your poetry wants to come out and play in the Spring time, Stacey well, we're standing here in the mud we wanna see what our new friend looks like she doesn't wish she would've stayed home does she? look---a yellow leaf just fell off....it coulda fallen into her hand i would've wanted to see her face when that happened i would've wanted to secretly receive her

Have any of you tasted Wer's cheesecake? Wonderful stuff, I tell you! Here, I'll cut it - hold out your plates.

yes, LePlep, i think it has turned into a positive... and, yes, the leaf and Stacey received each other, she just doesn't say much about stuff like that because she sometimes mistakes it as a weakness, and she can't stand that because it dulls her competitive edge...I think *wink* and Wolf, I love the announcement in the header...that is above and beyond what I was asking...you're doing great!

mistakes it as a weakness... maybe. certainly as a door to the inside of me...

and how is you, today?

I fixed your pawprint, Wolf...

if'n the 'you' is referring to me then... i'm just groovy. field trip to the fire station was fun and THANKFULLY uneventful in the way of accidents. gonna strap on the skates and go to it for a few hours!

spent a long time dancing with a yellow leaf today Leplep...

thanks, wer *hug* stacey: didja have fun? i spent the day cleaning house and laundry, woohoo!

riette, i apologize for the tone of my last response... as well as for the disparaging remarks i made re: emily bronte's poetry... (considering where i am, actually surprised to still be breathing after that)... it seemed to me that you weighed into a situation that you weren't totally informed about, and made judgements that were only half-formed, as a result, that only exascerbated an already sort of emotionally volatile situation... actually, that is what you did... but i'm hardly one to throw stones re: this sort of thing, having done precisely the same thing myself a few times... (notably when i perceived mike was being attacked by the droolers... my comments, i realize, were not particularly helpful)... undoubtedly, your motivation was a good one, though... and i am genuinely sorry for the way in which i responded... please do not inhibit your participation here, or anywhere, on my account... it isn't necessary, i promise... leplep, your words were wise, and appreciated... i think what you wrote (resp. 32) is an excellent guide to the kind of relations we should try to maintain here... don't know that i'm up to it (possessing, as it were, the most fanatic of "fanatic hearts")... but i will try... and... (shit)... i owe you an apology, too... i responded inappropriately to a thing you wrote awhile back, in this conference... it was posted in the topic "the kiss"... and it was my perception that you were disparaging a thing i'd posted some time back, a thing called "raison d'etre"... that was written about... someone i was rather sensitive about, guess you could say... felt, at that moment, as if "she" was being disparaged, illogical as that sounds (illogical being among my particular areas of speciality)... mystery girl has been telling me ever since that i was being an idiot... (yeah, she knows i'm an idiot sometimes... doesn't seem to mind... which is a very good thing, because i'm afraid it's congenital or something)... and, as much as i hate to admit that she was right (because, god, she really LOVES being right), she was... and i'm sorry for what i said... elke... (shit) what can i say? i hope we're still friends... i wish you nothing but the best (you should know that)... and i hope you invigorate this conference, do it proud and everything... (just don't color everything pink, okay?)... wer... an intrinsic part of being a great warrior is to value peace... you make peace with the best of em... (luck with the cheesecake) stacey... nomb... but you should post some of your poetry... it would be a privilege to share it...

Nick, seems to me we all just had a hard week last week. Did you have a look at the other conferences last week? Did you notice how EVERYONE got into a fight with everyone? And after your rebuke I was quite happy to stay out of it, I can tell ya! But it really wAS a crazy week, and you and me were by far not the only ones. It was not nice, but perhaps we just ALL needed to get something off our chest, and it's probably better for us to target each other for that, rather than take our frustrations out on our loved-ones - so in that sense, I think it was positive. Thank you Wer, STacey, Jim for maintaining a measure of sanity during that crazy week.

did the new bars I put in run everyone off? I didn't think they were that distasteful... speaking of, the contest previously mentioned is this Sunday...

hey wer, the bars are off-center on my screen. what's up with that? i dunno why everyone left. do i smell or something?

I haven't adjusted the template... thought of how I shoulda done it after I already had... can't smell nothing through my screen...

well, when i visit this site during lunch break at work the bars are centered (but i have a larger screen). wonder why....

Computer poetry!

is this a suggestion, riette? you know, i want to bring more people here and i visit several sites via webrings, but i don't want to be like *whispering* the fab market babe and sort of push myself onto them. how do i go about bringing outside poets here?

Don't know - looks to me like we've managed to scare all the others off already!!! Have you noticed that we're the only two here?!?!? But perhaps it's understandable - what with you being a wolf, and me being a boer.... Now, about the webrings..... Why don't you plant the odd mysterious looking little paw print amongst their poetry-like conferences, with a hyperlink to poetry? I don't know how that works - can you do that? Don't advertise yourself - just the paw, perhaps make it flicker or something to make it more alluring; surely ONE or TWO are going to want to see where it takes them. I mean, the Fabulous Market UNCOOLbabe went wrong in that she was so totally unsubtle about her intentions! I mean, she practical y threw herself at us, open legs and all. And the minute she caught poor Terry and Wer in her fabulous net, she dropped them like rotten potatoes! ha-ha!!! Actually the whole business was pretty hilarious to me!!!

Yep, our babe cheated us and ran off. Probably she's doing the same thing with some other unsuspecting gents down the line. Wham, bam, thank you m'am! Go for it wolfie, subtle plane them!

And you and Wer fell for her!!!! HA-HA!!!! Gullible pair of innocents!

Yep, innocent.

Suppose it was inevitable with your being a virgin and all.....

Yep, yep. Keep spreading those rumors, good work!

HEY PEOPLE, THERE'S A VIRGIN FREE FOR THE TAKING ON SPRING NET!!!

there's several, actually... so, what do you think of the current redesign, Wolf?

I take it you mean yourself, muffin, and so we'll go slow with you... I know you didn't ask me, but I think Poetry is looking totally cool! THis is a really nice green, and the little colourful lines inbetween are great! Easy to read as well, unlike some of these silly conferences with their silly, over the top colours that no-one can make a thing out of! I don't know who the hell gets it into their heads to design crap like that!

haha!! Yeah, wer, i forgot to say that i do like the changes. we need to put our heads together to do something about the buttons (you know, previous topic and all that)....

you know, this used to be a pretty interesting topic itself... didja notice, Wolf, that on the add a link option on Main Menu that a poet has added a link to his web pages? and, the last I looked, he was the only one that had done so?

yes i had. this place used to be hoppin'. i don't know what happened. for me, i've been really busy. my muse has taken a sabatical!

Hi, Wolf!

hi wer! i was afraid someone was giving me a hard time about the lack of activity here. i don't know if everyone has writer's block like me or have left due to lack of interest. whatever it is, i'm sorry it's empty here.

me, too, maybe this'll spark some activity again!

May I give you a couple of suggestions for new topics, Wolf? I would like to see an Elizabeth Barrett Browning topic, and possibly one for French poetry (either in French or translations.) Whaddya say?

you got it!

...we're doing our level best to keep this anthology afloat...

(...in response to a comment made some time ago...) Thanks for the wonderful new topics - especially for Ogden Nash...*grin*

couldn't do it without you!! *hugs* you all, please help me stay afloat here as my muse seems to have vanished without a ransom note or anything! haven't read poetry in awhile, either (aside from what's posted here). so if you come up with more topics, gimme a holler!

Will think on it. For you, Wolfie, anything! *hugs*

Might we have a William Wordsworth topic for John??? Please?

I second the motion!

...ah Romanticism...may it flourish and increase under our care and tending!

Thank you, ladies!

...ah Romanticism...may it flourish and increase under our care and tending!

we're steaming up the spring again - it is double posting stuff...not I!

yes, i'll put up a woodsworth topic!

Many thanks!!! I habve just posted his magnum opus, I think!

you're so welcome!

ok guys, i dunno what's going on with this page but all the pictures are GONE (as if you can't tell for yourself). your host is also suffering from the biggest writer's block ever but don't let that stop you from posting your stuff.

is this a dead topic? has everyone gone somewhere else? Wolf... I need a guide dog sweetie.

not a dead topic by far, your host is trying to recover from writer's block! it's just, um, hybernating, yeah, that's it. hopefully, i'll be able to tend to this conference as my work schedule is much more predictable! glad to see you around again, gena!!

glad to be here wolf! hey email me off list... I lost your web address, or rather I had an old one. Nothing there now ;-)

I didn't know that wolves hibernated. Then you're definitely not the average wolf, Wolfie.

*laugh* a previously undiscovered species, that's me. gena, my website is in dire need of updating and i've been trying to get together with terry to get my files on line (have 2 now--midnightwolf.net and .com). will let you know when that happens (but be patient) *giggle*

You want some help? I'm home almost all the time. I have Frontpage. I have an FTP program. Email me (spazzdog@comcast.net) and we can discuss. Now, since this is the Poetry Forum: Roses is red Violets is blue Make me stop rhyming Before I boo-hoo I feel better... hate hijacking topics off road.

thanks for your offer, gena, i've got those programs too, it's just a matter of getting them to transfer to the correct location on the spring server! your poem sounds like a blues song! i can just hear it!