Some comments from Dale Smoaks on George Foremans farewell fight. I watched George Foreman take apart Shannon Briggs, a man half his age, tonight. George lost the first round, but even by the end of it, you could see he was going to get to him sooner or later. He'd solved how to reach him, and once he did Briggs often looked like he was fighting through fear. In the middle rounds it looked like George was on the verge of ending it. Briggs had little pockets of effectiveness, and confidence, but mostly George drove him around with his jab. Briggs conquered his fear enough to pick up a couple of the later rounds, and then George beat him all over the ring in the 12th. Even though George is not a sleek athlete, his technical control of how he fights now, especially compared to his "prime" 25 years ago, is really astonishing. He looked great. His footwork was terrific; he's so good at cutting off the ring. I always felt that he'd have a good shot against Lennox Lewis. I was as surprised as I'd ever been at a decision to hear it go majority for Briggs. I had it 6-5-1 Foreman, and it didn't really feel even that close. Foreman thoroughly dominated some of the rounds he won, although with no knockdowns they weren't good enough to give to him 10-8. When Briggs would stay at angles and throw more punches instead of just trying to defend himself, he'd have the better of it enough to take a round, perhaps. George looked right after the fight like he knew he'd won it, but in the interview, he refused to badmouth the decision, or to even say he thought he won. He was gracious, and just as unflappable as ever. He praised Briggs, said that he'd come back from a lot and that he hoped the win would help him. When asked whether he'd retire, he said that he'd had a great career, and that he felt that he was done. For his part, Briggs looked to me like a man coming to terms with having just received the greatest gift of his career, and having to talk about it on television on the fly. But what stuck with me was that interview afterwards. I really was stunned at how gracious he was. He didn't talk in sports cliches; he meant it. Here's a man who won in the Olympics in 1968, and became known for waving that little flag around the same week that John Carlos and Tommie Smith raised their fists. Foreman was basically a bully con, who was powerful and wild. He destroyed Joe Frazier. He destroyed everyone, until Ali got to him by fighting both a brilliant psychological fight and a brilliant tactical fight. Foreman landed on his ass that night. He was losing very badly to Ali by the 8th round, but when he actually got KO'd it was as much from giving in to Ali as anything else. Then Foreman lurched around for a few years, and ended up losing to Jimmy Young. And retiring. He ran a poor ministry in Houston, had several sons named George, and daughters all with the same name, too. And then come back after 10 years. His comeback was an honest one. Instead of making some big money cameo the way Sugar Ray Leonard did this year, George started fighting stiffs and worked his way back over about 20 fights. In other words, he did it seriously. And he started beating good fighters. The night he fought Moorer, he wore the same trunks he'd lost to Ali in. He spent the whole night setting Moorer up for a straight right hand. Moorer was the type of fighter George couldn't beat by decision. He had one chance, and after losing 9 rounds, George landed that right hand. 45 years old, and 20 years after losing the title, he's undisputed champion again. I can't think of anything in sports quite like that. And he did it after that long layoff almost entirely remade. He had a bigger body. He had learned relaxation and control in the ring. In some ways he's looked to me better than he was when he was younger, although it's hard to believe that he could be. And he came back an entirely different person, too. He'd been this brooding, angry man the first time he was champion, and when Ali penetrated his psyche, it broke him. Then he comes back after 10 years a much more serene man. It took awhile to see that side of him because of the jolly facade he presented, but it's there. After he knocked out Moorer, it seemed clear in retrospect that Foreman waged his second career as a quest to regain the title. He made a lot of money, and always said he was doing it for the money, but after he KO'd Moorer it suddenly looked like his whole purpose had been to redeem himself. Maybe for quitting against Ali. Maybe for who he had been. He certainly picked his opponents carefully after that, and he had some close calls. But after dominating his last couple of fights, it looked like he was going to just keep going. It looked like that until the decision was announced, anyway. To me he's been the most interesting person in sports in recent years. His career pattern was unique, and he accomplished what he did by transforming his basic identity as a person. And given how he handled tonight, I'd say he went out on top.

Dale, Just thought I'd add my $.02 on George Foreman. I have followed his "comeback" career very closely and would have to be considered one of his admirerers. I perceived George to be an extremely likable fellow. Then George fought Axel Shultz. In my opinion (and others I'm sure), George lost this fight by a wide margin. This fight wasn't even close it was so lopsided. The judges gave the victory to Foreman in what surely must have been a fixed fight. After the fight, Foreman bragged about his victory w en being interviewed. My respect for George Foreman ended that second--never to return. George has more bullshit than a fertilizer factory. If he lost a decision he should have won, it serves him right! Just my $02 worth!! Hoop

I ran into someone in the Q Club hot tub yesterday who's an up and coming pro heavyweight boxer. His name is Humphries. He played for the UT Texas Longhorns in college, for the Vikings till he go hurt as a running back and now he's prepping for Floyd Patterson's son, anyone ever heard of thsi guy? I was surprised at how small he was, though well muscled, and he told me all these guys like Tyson and Holyfield are small in real life and look deceptively large on the tv screen.

From ESPN, the end of Mike Tyson: Saturday, Feb. 20 9:02pm ET Tyson in detention after apparent jail tantrum ESPN.com news services ROCKVILLE, Md. -- ESPN has confirmed that former heavyweight boxing champion Mike Tyson has been placed in administrative segregation at the Montgomery County Detention Center pending a hearing that is set for sometime Monday. The detention stems from an incident that happened Friday afternoon when Tyson received a disciplinary infraction for allegedly throwing a television at a set of bars. Tyson's outburst could make it harder for him to gain an early release to resume his career. "Mr. Tyson was going through some problems Friday night," Eric Seleznow, spokesman for the Montgomery County Department of Correction and Rehabilitation, told Reuter news service on Saturday. "He threw a TV. He was written up and remanded to the facility's administrative segregation area. He threw it against some bars with people on the other side. No one was injured." Tyson has been in the Montgomery County jail since Feb. 5. A judge sentenced him to 12 months imprisonment for punching a 60-year-old man in the jaw and kicking a 50-year-old in the groin last August after a traffic accident in the suburban Washington community of Gaithersburg. He pleaded no contest to two misdemeanor assault charges in December. County officials said he has been housed with about a dozen other inmates who are secluded from the general population of 640 prisoners. The Maryland jail term has meant fresh trouble for Tyson, a convicted rapist who was suspended from boxing for more than a year for biting the ears of world champion Evander Holyfield in a June 1997 title bout. Before Friday's incident, Tyson faced the possibility of being sent back to jail in Indiana for up to four years for violating probation after early release for the 1992 rape conviction. Tyson backers also have warned that the Nevada State Athletic Commission could revoke his license for good because of the Maryland incident. "He's been generally compliant and reasonable until this incident," said Seleznow. County officials have said Tyson could resume training within three to four months if he were to gain early release for good behavior. But the prison officials who preside over Monday's disciplinary hearing could impose punishments ranging from a loss of good-behavior time to a loss of visitation rights and other privileges.

he's a freakin psycho!

He's had all the chances he's gonna get. His career is through, and he's got no one to blame but himself.

honestly, I'm not sure he'll put two and two together on that one... I'm not sure he understands 'accountability' and/or "cause and effect" but thankfully, I think you're right... his career is finito!

Apparently, Tyson was on the phone and a guard came and hung up the receiver, and Tyson went in to a rage, picking up a small tv set and throwing it in the direction of a couple of guards. They weren't amused. Tyson's toast, alright. He could have had millions and a good life, now he's on the way to a life behind bars.

Wasn't that where he'd just been? Or do I mix something up?

I saw the fight in the smoke filled Yellow Rose titty bar down street from me. I went to watch the Longhorns game which was also pay per view but decided to stay and get my money's worth. I got a table dance from my friend Liz, which was fun. It was a good fight because I like the finesse matches better than the slugfests. De La Hoya deserved the fight because he landed about 100 more punches. But Trinidad landed slightly more straight punches, De La Hoya is a jabber. The final rounds should carry more weight, and apparently that's what the judges felt. Worst outcome: Don King gloating and the post fight. Lesson: Don't take anything for granted, even if you have a big lead.

If Don King is in the opponent's corner, don't let the fight go to the judges' scorecards (even if Arum is promoting the fight). You know who has greased at least two of the judges.

I am a licensed fight judge in the state of Hawaii. I haven't judged a pro fight in ten years, although my license is valid anywhere in the world. I still judge amateur bouts, and when I lose about 50 more pounds, will get back to refereeing as well. I don't believe the final rounds should carry more weight. That's why cards are taken between every round and tabulated. But still, you can't trust judges, and although boxing--unlike pro wrestling--is usually real, the outcomes are sometimes paid for. he one judge who called the fight a draw, Glen Hamada, of Tacoma, Washington, is originally from Hawaii. I judged the fight 115-114, DeLa Hoya. Still, that is so close that greased or not, I can't really squabble about a difference of two points on another judge's--who saw the fight live--card. And you don't get a totally real view on TV. Nothing beats the judges' seats, ringside center.

I think you scored it right, De La Hoya socred 100 more punches but they were lighter weight punches. And De La Hoya played it too safe at the end.

Although I have strong anti-Don King feelings, I can't really blame the judges for this one. Judging, even honest judging, is a subjective art.

This whole thing cries out for rematch and re-rematch, mo' money for Don King and company. I wouldn't have seen it except for the Horns game. Next time may be better because De La Hoya has something to prove. And he'll not let up. What's up with Evander Holyfield and Lennox Lewis. Is Lewis really the champ of the future? And have you seen this guy Butterbean? And what about women's boxing. Things to talk about.

IMHO, it is hard to consider Lennox Lewis, at age 34 "the champion of the future." He is the current WBC champion, while Evander Holyfield praises God for the "providential" decision giving him a draw against Lewis (a fight Lewis clearly won) and letting him keep his WBA and IBF titles. Lewis is clearly the best heavyweight out there now. Holyfield, age 37, is someone all factions of the fight game agree that they still need--hence the protective decision. He doesn't wear dreadlocks, has never tested positive for marijuana, praises God and trains year-round (despite the fact that he has sired several children out of wedlock, something you don't hear much about because the press loves him also). Mike Tyson's boxing skills have clearly eroded, as has his image, but he is still the number one draw in the heavyweight ranks, much as people love to see train wrecks, despite their revulsion. Tyson can also still change the complexion of any fight with one lucky punch, or one bite, as the case may be. The real champion of the future may be Michael Grant, age 27, 6-5, 230 pounds, undefeated (31-0, 21 KOs). He hasn't fought top flight competition yet, but has all the physical tools, except that his chin is untested (which may also be a good thing; he hasn't taken beatings, which age the body). Eric Esch (a.k.a. "Butterbean") is an anomaly. He won a couple of national "tough guy" contests. He weighs over 300 pounds and is clearly flabby around the midsection. But people love to see him. He has charisma, is white (a factor, politically incorrect or not), and has decent boxing skills despite the WWF circus-type atmosphere that surrounds him. The powers that be gave him a "special title" and refer to him as the "four round champion" (hype). He refuses to fight more than four rounders, which r legates him to undercard status, but is on the undercards of the biggest events. I do like to watch him, but don't take his act too seriously because he, despite obvious skills, refuses to get into shape and try to take his act to a higher level, suggesting a certain complacency and lack of ambition. He is happy to be a well-paid sideshow freak. I have mixed feelings about women's boxing. Women have the right to fight if they wish. Some women are good fighters. I, as a consumer, would watch them on the undercard, just as I would Butterbean, but exercise my right not to pay to see a Christy Martin or Tracy Bird fight as a main eventer, just as I would not pay to see Butterbean in a main event, either, unless he lost weight and fought his way up the ranks (unlikely since he is in his mid 30s). If there's sexism in that, (as emperor Joseph of Au tria said in Amadeus), "Well, there it is."

6 foot 5, wow, reminds me that Wilt Chamberlain once claimed he could beat anyone in the ring but he never actually entered the fight ranks. What does Michael Lewis have to do to break into a title fight? Sounds like he's prime material.

At 6-5, Michael Grant is still two inches shorter than Lennox Lewis, who is the tallest heavyweight champion ever at 6'7" (Primo Carnera was 6'6"). I think his handlers are doing him well. He may be a year or two of seasoning (maybe even three) away from being ready for Lewis. Older warriors' handlers also don't want a young hungry upstart like him upsetting the apple cart until the public clamors for the fight. He may be ready for Holyfield, but there's no way that fight will be made as long as Grant is not a number one rated contender (always a political process) and the fight becomes mandatory. His handlers want a fight with Tyson (King wants nothing to do with it). King, a shrewd sort, would rather have Tyson waltzing over "tomato cans" until/unless he can get another title shot. Lewis hasn't taken the beatings that Holyfield has and may have another several good years left in him, even at 34. Grant is improving, but he still got into boxing rather late (at age 22) after a college football care r. There was hype in the mid 60s about Wilt wanting to fight Muhammad Ali (Chamberlain would've won as Ali would've been disqualified for breaking his kneecaps--repeated blows below the belt *LAUGHING*). Seriously, Chamberlain, a decent martial artist, would've stood little chance against a marvelous ring technician and physicist such as Ali. Ed "Too Tall" Jones, a 6'9" former Dallas Cowboys defensive end took a year off to box, went 6-and-0 against undistinguished competition, but took a beating in a ight he won and retreated back into the "safe haven" of the NFL.

Wasn't Buster Douglas in a fight recently or scheduled to fight again against Tyson?

Yes, and was denied a license to box for being majorly out of shape. Considering that Butterbean is allowed, Douglas would have to be incredibly out of shape. He has ballooned to over 400 pounds in the past, though, and is a diabetic. Shame. But there is an old saying which is (sometimes) true. Fighters do only two things: fight or get fat. Certainly that was true with Douglas, George Foreman, Roberto Duran, and an old untalented former amateur light-heavysweight named Burnett (John, not former pro ight-heavy contender Jesse "No Relation" Burnett).

What was your record as a fighter John?

All amateur (1969-72) 31-12 (8 KOs). Slow, not much power, but a decent bodypuncher and good chin, which counts more in the pros than in the amateur ranks. Speaking of marginally talented boxers, do you remember Randall "Tex" Cobb, a heavyweight contender back in the late 70s, who has also done some TV and movie roles, mostly as a villain? Cobb was, and is, a large, genial, funny and smart (degree in philosophy from Abilene Christian) man. Howard Cosell resigned from boxing blow-by-blow after Cobb too a fearsome licking from then undisputed heavyweight king Larry Holmes. During the fight, Cosell had called on the ref and the ringside physician to stop the one-sided bloodbath, which they did not do. When informed after the fight what Cosell had done, Cobb quipped, "I'll go another 15 rounds with Holmes if Howard will quit announcing football!"

That's a great story and a great record. Did you ever fight anyone we might have heard of?

Ken Norton beat me like he was my daddy, knocked me down twice, but I lasted the three rounds. Mate Parlov (a Yugoslav--don't know what ethnic background he was), former (at that time future) WBC light-heavy champ, I lost a surprisingly close decision. Former light-heavy contender and for a short while (I had forgotten) IBF cruiserweight champ Jesse (No relation) Burnett, gave me a sound whipping, but didn't knock me down. The only two times I was KOd, it was because of cuts, not knockdowns or disorien ation. Neither fighter who KOd me went on to pro careers. One was on the Cuban national team (I can't remember his name offhand, but he was good).

No concussions, then? Ergo no brain damage. Excellent news! Was not Alberto Juantoreno (spelled wrong, I know!)??? All Cuban boxers are better than average of anywhere else...I guess they have to be!

No, but I saw Teofilo Stevenson, the great Cuban heavyweight, fight after I took my lumps. He easily outpointed Buster Mathis, Sr., who was a hell of a fighter, despite his ample midsection. I'm sure I suffered some brain damage, but I was never knocked unconscious. I certainly was knocked silly, but nothing I didn't recover enough to fight from after getting up or being administered the "standing eight." Stevenson was the best three round fighter I ever saw. I remember him cold-cocking the favored a d highly-touted Minnesotan "great white h(d)ope," Duane Bobick, with a single punch, a few years later.

BTW, if I'm not mistaken, Alberto Juantorena was an 800 meter Olympic runner, was he not?

Lasting more than 30 seconds in the ring with Ken NOrton is impressive, in fact, 3 rounds is very impressive. This was one of the all time fight greats and onetime heavyweight champion. Now, *that's* something to tell your grandkids about! Does anyone else in your family have your athletic ability?

Yeah, he was. But I knew if i threw a name in the ring you would think of the correct one and we would all know!

Tell us more about the Norton fight, your training, feelings going in and after, and where it came in both your careers. What year was it? Do you have a film of it?

It was a Navy-Marine smoker in San Diego. He was the Marine champion at the time and close to getting out (1970). He turned pro shortly thereafter, while still in the Marines. I had signed up for the Navy and was sworn in, but hadn't reported for active duty yet. Since I was officially in the service, I used the Naval Training Center's gym facility, since I could so for free. Since I was an amateur fighter, and they needed a light-heavy for the card, I was pressed into action. Elmer Martin, the Navy s light-heavy champion at the time (who I lost a decision to later that I thought I won) was supposed to fight Norton, but had suffered a training injury (sprained wrist). I had been sparring with him and did what I thought was pretty well, so I felt as prepared as I was going to be. Something in me knew that Norton was a lot better fighter than was. I was relatively inexperienced, I think it was my 11th fight, but I really wanted to to it, just to see where I stacked up. Three years later, I'm off th coast of 'Nam, and Norton, who developed into a heavyweight, broke Muhammad Ali's jaw. I knew he had a future as a pro, but I didn't know how much of one. I actually think that Norton had to really train himself very slim to fight light-heavy, but he had a bigger man's frame and knew how to use it. He was a nice guy, intelligent, well-spoken and gracious in victory (as well as in defeat when he lost his heavyweight title to Holmes in 1978). Marcia, I still can't remember the Cuban fighter's name. I as so stoked to see Stevenson (like everyone else in attendance)--and glad it wasn't him I had to fight. That bout wasn't televised...I don't know if any private films exist. I lost all my medals, pictures, and memorabilia in a house fire on the North Shore of Oahu in 1976. All that's left is memories (what's left of them) and the foundation to become an official.

I have three cousins who were All-American football players at Arkansas. One of them, Bob Burnett, was the AFL rookie of the year in 1966 as a running back for the Buffalo Bills. I'm not sure I was all that talented...just hard-headed.

Without a doubt, you are one of the most fascinating people I have ever met! And, you really know how to tell a story, but I already knew that...I am such a huge fan of yours...*sigh* I gather there are no petite people in your genetic line. But, there sure are talented ones *smile*

My dad, who had polio as a child, was smallish (5'8", maybe 160). But not other than him. Not everyone in my family is tall, but we all, including my dad, were stocky...even when not fat.

I remember one of Norton's all time great quotes, after getting KO'd in the first round by Earnie Shavers: "No excuses. He did to me what I wanted to do to him."

That's a great story about your Ken Norton fight, John and that's awesome that your cousins were all All American razorbacks. Tell us what you remember about the Norton fight iteself. How did ig go, blow by blow?

I remember being overwhelmed. I certainly wasn't calling blow-by-blow in my mind, at least after the first really hard punch hit me, a great left hook which just missed "the button" about 20 seconds into the fight. At that point, thoughts of survival took precedence over any false bravado that I may actually win. I remember landing one good body combination in the first round, a left to the side and right to the solar plexus. I connected solidly, and when he didn't gasp, especially with the second blo , I realized how well conditioned he was. He was willing to let me have the body, if I could reach it, to protect his head. It was smart, because he was faster, with longer arms, and it was difficult to get inside to bang the body. I connected with some random body blows throughout the bout, no more combinations, and no more solid blows to the solar plexus. I don't think I hit him even once solidly to the face...a few grazing blows at best. He hit me with mostly jabs (amateur strategy), and he had a traight, jarring one, and a good left hook. His right cross was not yet well developed, it was looping, and I was able to avoid most of those by either ducking or moving laterally. I went down twice. Once towards the end of the second round. I never saw the punch. I was told it was a left hook. It clipped me right on the chin. I was able to hear the count from four on and got up at seven. I went into a defensive posture for the rest of the round and survived. My corner wanted to stop the fight. talked them out of it. My head cleared between rounds and I went into a crouching, defensive style for the third round. I abandoned any thoughts of hitting him in the head, and when he either tired of hitting me or regrouped to take a breath, I threw body shots, some of which landed, but if they were to have effect, it wasn't going to happen in three rounds. I went down again just before the end of the fight. Again, I didn't see or feel the punch, but I was told it was the hook again. This time I wa in serious trouble and couldn't make out the count. I could only hear that counting was going on and see the ref moving his right arm. I got up, grabbed the ropes, and when Norton came out of his corner, the first, last, and only thing I heard, was the bell saving me. I was cloudy, I was exhausted, both my eyes and my mouth were puffed, I was bleeding from a nostril, but I didn't really feel the pain until an hour or so later, at Balboa Naval Hospital, where they kept me overnight for observation.

Wow, you took a pounding. Did Norton say anything to you while you boxed? Or before or after the fight?

Norton was a sportsman and a gentleman. He didn't do any trash talking. In fact, that was rare back then. Muhammad Ali did, of course, but his was funny and almost an art form, not the crude "yo mama" stuff of today. During pre-fight instructions, Norton listened intensely without trying to stare me down. He said nothing while fighting. He didn't have to; his dukes were quite eloquent. After the second round, he nodded and smiled at me. I think he was surprised I got up. If I been thinking about t, I probably would have been surprised, too. After the fight we talked briefly. He was both well-spoken and soft-spoken. He complimented me on my guts and my chin and encouraged me to stick with it. I recall telling him "it was a privilege getting thrashed by you." He laughed.

That's funny. Great story, and Norton sounds like a fine person. Have you seen his son, Ken Norton Jr. I think it is, play for the 49ers. He's a helluva an athlete too. And he does this thing of punching out the goalposts after a great play every now and then. What interesting fights are coming up?

I haven't really checked. I'm in my postfight withdrawal after Trinidad-DeLaHoya. Call me sexist, but here's a sure sign the apocalypse is upon us: Seattle (AP)-The state Department of Licensing has approved an Oct. 9 boxing match between a 36-year-old woman and the second man to agree to fight her. The state had previously given the go-ahead to a match between Margaret McGregor of Bremerton and Hector Morales, 23, but Morales backed out last week. The bout approved Wednesday will pit McGregor, 130 pounds, against 34-year-old Loi Chow, 125, of Vancouver, British Columbia. The department's boxing program treated this fight application like any other, said spokesperson Geraldine Calvo, since Washington state law doesn't prohibit male-female boxing. "If we feel it's a fair match, we go with it," she said of the first pro mixed match approved in Washington. Chow, a jockey and weightlifter, has a 0-2 record. McGregor, a landscaper, housecleaner, and former kickboxer, has a 3-0 record against women since turning pro in April.

Norton's son is a fine linebacker, and probably the only guy in the NFL who can't whip his daddy. Maybe that's why they are reportedly estranged.

Tonight Shane Mosley makes his debut at welterweight against Wilfredo Rivera, and there's also the rebroadcast of De La Hoya's "domination" of Trinidad.

"Sugar" Shane is quite the stylist.

Tell us about the bout, I missed it, if you saw it. And a second look at the De La Hoya bout revealed that Trinidad fought a better fight than I thought. I had the sound on the Longhorn game so I didn't have the announcer bias factor.

I missed it. Live in a building where everybody has basic cable, but premium services are unavailable. I miss HBO and Showtime. I saw Trinidad-De LaHoya at a local watering hole.

Are you in Bayshore? Lagoon Center? Mauna Loa Shores? I am not sure I know where you live, my dear! (Don't need to tell me, of course...just wondering)Too much good stuff is on the one-better-than-basic option. We do not get all the sports channels and food and such - ex pays for that too, and I don't want to take advantage of his generosity!

John, Allow me as a newcomer here to bow in awe at your boxing pedigree. As has been remarked, to have fought someone of Norton's calibre (and survived 3 rounds) is a triumph, but to tell the story so well (and fairly) is mastery of a second art-form also. I understand your public is interested in the celebrities (I am too) but can you give us a blow-by-blow on what you consider your finest win? I am also delighted at the recognition that Lewis won the Holyfield fight, and sorry that the reputation of boxing judges was tarnished that night.

Hiya, Mark, and welcome to the Spring!

REally, welcome Mark, and the story of that Burnett lifetime high would be very interesting. I agree, it's one thing to hold your own against Norton for three rounds and another indeed to recount it so eloquently.

He is back to teaching this morning. You will have to wait till afternoon our time, but I am sure it will be worth the wait. John is a wordsmith of rare talent. I got him to post, and it is the most fortuitous thing I think I have done for The Spring ! Welcome, Mark. Delighted to see you. Terry, Mark is a cricketer - if you can find anyone who might like to run a topic, I am sure he would find a little time to add information...he just feels he does not have the time to host one. (I'll hold him down while you twist his arm...!)

I'm afraid that working on the radio this weekend (no sub was available there) while still sick and chasing down the crashed plane story yesterday has left me not quite well enough to take back my classes today. I am "playing hooky" for one more day. Will be back in class tomorrow. Mark, welcome. I don't have any victories over anyone you probably have heard of. Everyone I fought who went on to a professional career beat me. I believe the best fight of my career (also a loss on the scorecards, although I still believe I won) was against the then-Navy champion, Elmer Martin, who I sparred with previously and therefore had knowledge of his style. He was a Navy "lifer," a chief petty officer and career amateur. He was about 30 when I fought him and I was 19 (ironically, I was the one close to ending my boxing career, not him). It was the 1972 Navy championships, held at Great Lakes Naval Station north of Chicago. Martin was quick, but a light-hitting stick-and-move artist. I was more experienced when I fought him than when I had faced Norton. I found his jab annoying, but not really hurtful. I was able to slip some, take some, and get inside to bang the entire fight. I scored the fight's only knockdown (midway through the second round) on a combination left hook to the right side, uppercut to the chin. To his credit, he got up at five. Unfortunately, in amateur bouts (20 point must system at the time), a kno kdown counts no more than any other clean scoring punch. He was hurt. I could see it in his eyes, but I only had about 30 seconds to try to finish him off. He was taller and had better foot speed. He got "on his bicycle" and I pressed too hard, trying to go for the KO. I wasn't able to connect solidly before the round ended. He continued to jab away in the third round and I kept going to the body (a smarter pro than amateur tactic, but it was my best weapon). I got him to drop his hands midway through the final round and I tagged him with a left hook to the side of the face (missed the button by about an inch). He sagged against the ropes and the ref called a standing eight. His head cleared and he survived. It was a split decision. One judge gave it to me 59-58, the other two saw it 59-58 Martin. He wasn't famous, but did fight a few times on national TV (Wide World of Sports) sometimes telecast international amateur and national AAU bouts. Each military champion got an automatic berth in the national AAUs back then. Now that's only true if the state they are stationed in don't have state AAU championships (a few don't). Otherwise now, they must win the state AAU title to advance to the nationals. Martin was a good ring technician, better than I was, but I know I administered a beating to him. I had one slightly swollen eye at the end. He had a completely swollen lip and was bleeding from both nostrils. But he was brave and game and knew what to do to survive. I also think he got some consideration from the judges for having had the belt for several years.

John, really interesting (and how lucky we are to have you another full day)...know anything about Cricket?

Good story. Would your career have taken a different turn had you won that fight? Was it pivotal for your boxing career? It sounds like had you won, you would have been on Wide World of Sports. Sure, cricket is so mysterious to most of us, it would be good to pump up the topic that might be there already.

Marcia, I am pitifully ignorant. I used to watch Samoans play at Kapi'olani Park and Ke'ehi Lagoon Park in Honolulu and enjoy it, though. They have wickets (some sticky, I gather), the bat is triangular with flat faces, and the equivalent to a pitcher is called a "bowler." I marvel at the athleticism of Samoans, as I do when I watch them play rugby, American football, or box, as well. I take it, Mark, you're British.

Terry, I ended up getting sent to sea for the final three years of my enlistment. That effectively ended my career. If I had won the Navy title, things would assuredly have been different. I would have been allowed to remain on shore duty and might even have reenlisted. But things happen the way they do for a reason, and I don't have any regrets about that. And I didn't suffer any more brain damage, other than what an occasional brewski does.

Maybe it was for the best then.

Yeah. I really didn't have a future as a pro although it might be nice to have a Navy retirement check monthly. I got into radio and had fun and then started teaching a few years ago.

Mark, like Delderfield's God, is an Englishman. Which topic in sports might be fair game...(one not being used for much right now is as likely as any, I would imagine...) Sticky wickets are forbidden. A little cross-piece sits across the tops of the wickets and it that little bale (the cross-piece) that you try to knock off - the ultimate end of the game. The batter swats the ball away from the wicket to protect it. If you have put some sticky substance on the wicket to keep the bale more securely at p it, that is a *big* No No ! (You also get 6 automatic runs for hitting out of bounds!)

Now we have a cricket topic! I was surprised there wasn't one.

Mahalo Nui Loa...I just emailed Mark with the URL so he will see it when he gets to work tomorrow morning (his only access to the net)...*smiling in happy anticipation*

Good fight, John. Unlucky with the decision (contenders always get the short straw against champions). I still think the scoring system is crazy. You can get knocked down, and back off for the rest of the round without throwing a punch, but you'll always get nineteen points. And twenty for the round winner. Not much differential there.

It's silly, especially when you consider that point totals are not announced in amateur fights. TV may have them, but they aren't announced to the crowd (at least in the 20 point must). I've never judged a fight with electronic scoring (where two out of three judges must agree within one second that a punch has landed cleanly and then the fight score is the number of clean punches landed for each fighter). I like it in theory, but in practice, I've still seen some worse than questionable decisions.

. . . like the Holyfield win over Lennox Lewis?

Actually it was scored a draw (Lewis pounded him). Electronic scoring is only done in amateur bouts and at this point only in Olympic and high-profile international competition. I'm afraid it doesn't make judging any less political and nationalistic or any more honest.

Laila Ali, the youngest of Muhammad Ali's nine children, makes her professional ring debut in October. Ali is 5'10", with the face and figure of a model or movie star. She has had plenty of offers for both modeling and acting and has turned both down. I have seen two televised news accounts about her, and her opponent was not named in either story. But I saw her hit the heavy bag and throw punches at a mittened trainer and she looks more than comfortable. It will be interesting to see how she does wh n there is another human being throwing punches at her, if no other reason than her name is Ali. BTW, there is a new number one on my top five babes list: Laila Ali. She is that beautiful. Hopefully she has excellent defensive skills and will remain so.

Her opponent is called April Fowler. The bout is in upstate New York Oct 8th.

Never heard of her opponent, but you can bet she's been handpicked to be cannon fodder.

I did a search on (highly recommended) google.com and found this pic. She's into good causes like her dad, in this case, against stun belts that are used to torture animals. http://www.amnesty-usa.org/rightsforall/stun/press-ali.html And a bunch more articles here: http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Field/6251/wboxnews.htm google.com has just replaced infind.com as my favorite search engine.

That pic doesn't come close to doing her justice. I think she's now about 20 pounds slimmer than that pic. She's listed as age 21, 5'10", 165, bu she's buffed with washboard abs.

She is a pretty lady! If, as you say, she is buffed and has washboard abs, that means she has whittled her fat percentage so low that you gentlemen's favorite part of the female form is minimalized. Hmmmm.... does that somehow make her less than desirable?

Not to me it doesn't. I'd like to whittle myself down enough to "spar" with her!

...but I thought there was a "no clutching allowed" rule...!

BTW, John, God never intended for you to whittle yourself to the size of that lady. Don't even think about it! (Unless you are thinking in some other way that I am not...)

She spars with her daddy. If I can get down to 200 pounds, I can spar with her.

Ok...I agree with that! Go for it!!!

What roles to trainers and managers play during a fight, what is said to fighters in their corner, for example, what do you think Oscar de la Hoyas corner people were telling him? Who are the great corner people in boxing and what are their roles?

Managers, unless they are trainers as well (and there are many manager/trainers, should stay out of the corner. The manager himself is a dying breed in boxing. Most managerial duties have been taken over by trainers and promoters. In the older days (before Don King and Bob Arum), managers were the number one person in charge of a fighter's career, other than the fighter "himself" (before women's boxing). The manager dealt with promoters and matchmakers to get his fighter fights, negotiated the purse, hired the trainer and other corner people (a cut man is necessary in addition to a trainer in the corner), collec the check and see to it that it is distributed--hopefully honestly and properly (after training expenses, which usually comes out of the fighter's share. A good trainer is part coach, part psychologist, part teacher, part confidante, part drill sergeant and has to know which role to take and when to take it. In the corner, between rounds, the trainer should be the only one talking to the fighter. He should have the water bottle ready in one hand, the towel in the other. The other man, who carries the bucket and has an array of tools in his pocket is the cut man. Some corners have more than two people in the corner, but that is totally unnecessary, and can sometimes be detrimental. The cut man is a first-aid wizard and skin magician. He should be able to slow or stop the flow of blood from all but the very nastiest cuts, stop the flow of blood from the nose unless the nose is broken, and stop swelling of the eyes. His tools of the trade are: the towel, q-tips, vaselin , zinc oxide (related to what lifeguards use to keep their noses from sunburning, but mixed differently) to close smaller cuts, adrenaline capsules to stop larger cuts, a skinlike patching substance of recent invention, and end-swell (a small pressing-iron like device kept on ice to apply pressure and cold to swelling and bruised eyes. There have been a lot of great cornermen (also known as "seconds") throughout the years. Lou Duva (New Jersey) stands out among those still working. Fighters Duva handles or has handled include Holyfield, Bobby Czyz, James Scott, the Mayweathers. Greg Goosen (Ten Goose Boxing Club in L.A.), a former major league catcher, is an up-and-coming trainer/manager who has handled Michael Nunn, Michael Moorer, and Hawaii's own Jesus Salud. Teddy Atlas is a dynamite trainer. He handled Mike Tyson early in his career and Moorer (who didn't listen to him) when he lost to Foreman. Atlas also threatened Tyson with a gun while Tyson was still an amateur over allegedly trying to force Atlas' sister to have sex. It may be too bad he didn't pull the trigger. Legendary trainers (dead, retired, or semi-retired) include: Eddie Futch (Joe Frazier, and a host of fine Philadelphia fighters), Angelo Dundee (Rocky Marciano and Muhammad Ali), Pat and Goody Petronelli (Marvin Hagler), Gil Clancy (George Foreman), Ray Arcel (Willie Pep, Ezzard Charles, Roberto Duran). I could tell that DeLa Hoya's people wanted a more proactive approach from him in the later rounds of the Trinidad fight. They were right, but Oscar was certain that he had put away enough rounds "in the bank," and went against their advice. A smart fighter will listen to his trainer--that's what the trainer is paid for. If you don't trust the trainer's advice, fire him and hire another. The bulk of the trainer's work is done when the fighter steps between the ropes, but the smaller and most important job begins then. Keeping the fighter focused, motivated, positive (without bullshitting him if he is behind or doing something stupid) and working as a second pair of eyes, noting weaknesses in the other fighter's defense that the fighter might not notice. Maybe the opponent doesn't snap his jab back after throwing. A good trainer would pick up on that and tell his fighter to continually hrow a counter lead right over the lazy jab to take advantage of the opponent's open chin. If a fighter does a good job of covering the head, the trainer will remind the fighter to "take the body, the head will follow." (Cliche, but tried and true.) Teddy Atlas kept telling Moorer to circle to his right against Foreman, which Moorer did for most of 10 rounds (the fight was scheduled for 12). That gave Moorer, a southpaw with better hand and foot speed than Foreman, the advantage of getting his quick r ght jab off into the left side of Foreman's face, and also kept Moorer out of harm's way from Foreman's thunderous straight right. Moorer put the first nine rounds in the bank, but then started to go against his advice, standing still to trade and eventually circling to the left. Moorer was moving to his left when Foreman connected with a short, sweet right ro the chin that Moorer neither saw nor felt on his way to dreamland. Angelo Dundee noted that Sonny Liston hadn't taken Muhammad Ali (then Cassius Clay) seriously enough and had sloughed in his training before their first bout. He told Ali to keep baiting him with the "big, ugly bear" line, which truly pissed Liston, an incredible physical specimen, off. He told Ali to keep jabbing and talking, jabbing and talking, and keep moving to the right, away from Liston's right. Liston finally realized he couldn't catch his younger, faster, constantly tauting challenger and refu ed to come out for the seventh round. A new champion and legend was born.

Wow! This is really interesting stuff! We used to watch the Tuesday-night fights on ESPN, but not sure if they still carry it. I always wondered what exactly the cut man was using and the efficacy of the stuff...it is truly impressive. You make it sound like an art form...!

You're probably the reason they call it the "Sweet Science" ... or am I confused and mixing metaphors? 'Twould not be the first time...!

They do call it the "sweet science" but I'm not the reason. I'm not sure, but I think that nickname started from the beauty and sheer physics of Sugar Ray Robinson's ring mastery (he won his first 123 fights).

When I was a kid and all these now-legendary boxers were active, they were tall, their muscles well defined and they had a grandeur about them. Now they are shorter than I am and almost as slender of frame. What happened?!

You got bigger and less impressed. Finely trained boxers are still wonderful physical specimens, but most eschew weight training in the belief that it makes their muscles too bulky and slow. Some, though go on specialized regimens of weight training designed by consultants such as Mackey Shilstone, who helped bulk up Michael Spinks from light-heavyweight to heavyweight.

I am sure your analysis is correct. To a little kid, they looked like giants - like that statue of David by Michelangelo, even. But, I did get bigger and was impressed more by other things, I suppose. Call me jaded! Michael Spinks was had a great physique as I recall...they are still out there. And, I understand about all that muscle - nothing but heavy weight hanging around on you not being used if it is not utilized in your sport. Good point to remember. Thanks!

eeeek...Michael S. had a....(kill the "was")

That was a great explanation of the cornerman's role, worthy of being a magazine article or something, informative as hell. What is the role of the promoter and what are some of teh great promoters of today and the past. Specifically, how has Don King affected boxing?

The biggest thing a promoter is is a salesperson. The promoter has to put up the money to put on a fight card. The promoter can use his or her own money. If he or she is wealthy, so much the easier. But then, the promoter singularly assumes any and all risk. Most promoters use OPM (other people's money). It's not necessarily unlike being a Hollywood producer. The promoter is a person with a dream--in this case of getting two fighters together (the main event on a fight card). The promoter tries fi st to sell other investors the dream, then when all the elements are put into place (money is there to pay the purses of the main eventers, the undercard fighters, the arena, security, advertising, transportation costs, on-site training expenses, hotels, performance bond--a necessity in today's shaky market, especially since a fighter could get injured in training and pull out, referees, judges, sanctioning fees if it is a title fight, and of course, the promoter's employees salaries) the promoter goes ab ut the business of selling the public the dream as well. Advertising is a must, but smart promotion also means getting the media interested to get as much copy and air time possible to generate word of mouth among fans and other possible spectators (consumers). Don King, like him or not, is the ultimate promoter. He knows exactly how to sell the dream. He is keenly intelligent--if amoral--and preternaturally media savvy. He first comes up with a slogan to position the fight as more than a fight. It is an event. Then he uses the media to plant that slogan as a mantra in the collective public mind. "Rumble in the Jungle, "Thrilla in Manila, "The Pride and the Passion," "The Power and the Glory"...King knows how to make his fight a must-see in the minds of fa s. He has redefined the role of the promoter, or perhaps refocused it. King, who likes to be the master of all he surveys, has taken a proactive approach that has essentially cut others out of the loop. When he finds a fighter whom he considers promotable on his terms, he tries to cut ties with that fighter's manager, if the fighter has one (e.g.: how King got Tyson to cut ties with manager Bill Cayton, who allegedly had an iron-clad contract with Iron Mike). King: "Do you need Satan?" Tyson: "Huh?" King: "I meant, Cayton, but the question still applies." King will take over all facets of the fighter's career, including hiring a trainer--with the fighter's money-- who answers to King, not to the figh er. If King is unable to cut the ties, but the fighter is determined to go with King, the manager is paid off to become a low-level consultant and in effect, King has become the fighter's manager as well as the promoter (would you want Don King to be accountable for distribution of money in your camp?). But King has the heavyweight division almost all wrapped up, and nearly all fighters seem powerless to tell him no. George Foreman has made sure that King has no paper ties over his career. Foreman will fight a King promoted and managed fighter, but will sign no pact with King himself, other than just to fight. The main person Foreman is beholden to for his career (he is self-managed) is Seth Abraham, programming czar at HBO. Fighters like Mike Tyson and Julio Cesar Chavez have become virtual slaves to King. Some fighters are perfectly happy with the situation, but King, like what Colonel Tom Parker did to Elvis, e acts a much larger share of any purse than what I would consider fair, reasonable, or even conscionable. There is also little doubt in my mind that King has at least three sets of books: his own, those he shows fighters, and those he shows the IRS. King's top fighters, although they have fought for all the alphabet soup sanctioning organizations' belts, are almost always a lock for a WBC (World Boxing Council) title. It is said that the WBC, which is headquartered in Mexico City, is basically just another arm of Don King enterprises, and that WBC President Jose Sulaiman is basically just King's translator and entree into the seemingly endless supply of talented Latin-American fighters. The only other huge event manager out there is Bob Arum (Top Rank, Inc). Arum seems benign compared to King, but he is a cutthroat New York lawyer who just happens to have a much nicer public face. He is more of a delegator than is King, but really has no more interest in a fighter's well-being than King has. If I were a fighter and wanted to go with a full-service stable (management, promotion, training), I would try to sign with Lou and Dan Duva. The Duvas run a family fight business out of New Jersey. Father Lou is a legendary cornerman (manager/trainer), son Dan is a lawyer and handles the promotional end with his sister Shelly. The Duvas have a promotional partner, Shelly Finkel, a New York attorney with experience as a rock concert promoter (which really isn't that much different, and with mosh pits, ould be just as violent). Cedric Kushner, a South African promoter, also has some "juice." He is the promoter/producer of Fox West Sports' "Fight Night at the Forum." The unseen artiste in any good promotional organization is the matchmaker. The matchmaker is charged with putting together good, competitive, fights that will please the public, especially on the undercard. Matchmakers probably know more about boxing and boxers than anyone else in the promoter's employ. King does not have a matchmaker; Arum does it by contract per card; Lou Duva does it himself. Other legendary matchmakers include: Teddy Brenner (Madison Square Garden), Don "War a Week" Chargin (Kushn r, the GW Forum), Joel "the Lip" Lipsitt, who is often contracted by Arum...Lipsitt used to be the matchmaker for the late, legendary Hawaii boxing promoter "Sad" Sam Ichinose. Back in the early 1980s, I worked part-time as a matchmaker for a promoter named Mario Silva, a former boxer and an alleged Puerto Rican mobster who for a couple of years promoted fights in Hawaii (until he killed a man in a bar brawl in New York and went to the joint for manslaughter). Silva, despite his background and alleged c nnections, was always good to me. Casual boxing observers (but never veteran railbirds) would often ask Silva, "Why do you need that hippie as a matchmaker?" He always gave me my propers. He'd smile at people and say, "Because that hippie knows his shit." King, BTW, started off as a numbers runner for the Cleveland mob. It is good training for what he eventually became. He also did time for manslaughter after killing a gambler with his bare hands. A small promoter has to be creative. He has to go low budget and try to get as many things as he can for promotional consideration. He will use posters as much as possible as an advertising medium and look for the best radio/TV deals and go around to writers, radio personalities and TV sportscasters and bang the drum. He'll also try to get discounted or complimentary hotel rooms, air fares, rental cars, etc. for including the hotels, airlines, and transportation companies in advertising (logos on poste s, TV and print ads, and quick mentions in radio spots). Promoters have not yet learned to use the internet as a medium for promoting fights, but I'll bet a guy like King or Arum will figure a way to make it work for them sometime soon.

This is another awesome rundown, these responses are worthy of being a feature article on a major publication website like ESPN! We're lucky that you're sharing these insights with us. I was intrigued about your comment about promoters getting to the Internet, how do you think they'll utilize it? Will there be pay per view events? Are there any decent boxing websites out there? What kind of stuff did you do as Silva's matchmaker?

There are some pretty good websites out there. Mostly run by computer savvy railbirds and gamblers. The official sites (The Ring, WBA, WBC) suck. I'll put some up later when I have time to look (I'm terrible about bookmarking, but have a decent memory). Internet pay-per-view is certainly one avenue, but is not all that viable yet because so few customers have T1 or ISDN connections. Sites devoted strictly to pre-fight hype and mentioned by graphics in TV commericials and voice in radio commercials is a major possibility. As much hoopla as surrounded the Ali-Foreman fight, King could have drilled it home even further if he'd had the web then. How about "www.rumble.com" Is that a memorable URL or what? As Silva's matchmaker it was my responsibility to put together the best fights possible on the budget available (purse, transportation, etc.) He would usually take care of the main event himself, although sometimes one fighter would back out, and if that was the opponent instead of the local fave, I would be charged with the replacement. I would compare records--both numbers and who they fought--look at recent trends, if someone was in their prime or slipping, styles, boxers, boxer-punchers, runner-surv vors, and try to get the best bang per buck. Ideally you would get as even matches as possible between fighters with crowd-pleasing styles. I would use contacts I knew, mostly referees and fight judges around the country, if a fighter looked good to me on paper, but I'd never seen him in person or on TV or tape before. I was starting to get pretty good at it, and we were making a modest amount of money--not losing--which is rare for Hawaii promotions, when Mario got into trouble. I don't have the "kah nes" to promote, myself. Too risky and I'm already a poor man.

Have you thought of doing your own boxing website? You certainly have the expertise and writing skills to pull it off!

I don't have the time...and it would be hard to sell it from Hawaii. I log on to the Spring too much *SMILE* Enjoy most of the smart people here. Here are what I consider the best boxing sites: 1. Honest Howie's @ http://www.boxingranks.com It is a gambler's site, run by an oddsmaker. Gives his own independent rankings. 2. http://www.boxingpress.com good independent rankings, plus the official stuff as well 3. http://www.boxingtimes.com 4. http://www.boxingonline.com 5. http://www.boxinginsider.com All have their own agendae...some are run by writers, some by gamblers, Boxing Insider is a beautiful site with excellent graphics and decent analysis, but the writing appears to have been proofread by fifth-graders. Still, all these sites have their merits.

Great stuff, as usual, John. Much thanks!!! Why do I immediately cringe and become skeptical when your first URL is "Honest Howie's"...?!

Wow, Honest Howie's heavyweight rankings: Heavyweight Division Champion - LENNOX LEWIS 1. Ike Ibeabuchi 2. David Tua 3. Hasim Rahman 4. Andrew Golota 5. Michael Grant 6. Chris Byrd 7. Kirk Johnson 8. Evander Holyfield 9. Mike Tyson 10. John Ruiz Holyfield 8th and Tyson 9th (no surprise). And Lennox Lewis deservedly at number one.

And it the controversy dept: SEATTLE (Reuters) - In the long and checkered history of professional boxing there has never been a match quite like the battle of the sexes on the card at Seattle's Mercer Arena Saturday -- a chance for a man and a woman to slug it out legally. The fight pitting Margaret ``Tiger'' MacGregor, 36, against Loi Chow, 33, the first officially sanctioned male-female bout, has attracted international media attention along with howls of outrage from professional boxing circles. The Association of Boxing Commissions, citing ``very real health and safety concerns,'' is recognizing the fight only as an exhibition. One well-known trainer offered $5,000 to call off the match, and a state representative wants to make mixed-sex boxing illegal. ``We really think it's a dangerous precedent, and it's something that women's boxing is not embracing in any form,'' said Rick Kulis, a longtime sports promoter and founder of the International Female Boxers Association. ... more at http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/19991007/sp/boxing_sexes_1.html

I saw some coverage on the subject of the mixed sex boxing match on ESPN's SportsCenter. Very weird. No matter what the outcome, someone will have valid excuses for it.

I'd posted an AP story about it previously with a remark about the apocalypse being upon us. I just plain don't like it--and it doesn't matter who wins.

It is worse than having women in combat as far as I am concerned. This is complete idiocy and they can count on my not watching it!

BTW, Marcia, yes the name "Honest Howie" is used-car laughable, but you'll get the straight scoop from him long before you will from the WBA, WBC, WBO, IBF, IBA, IBC, NABF, or Don F-----g King. I'm also quite partial to the Boxing Press site, as well.

Ok, I will take your word for it because I trust you! Howie and the Boxing Press for my boxing news...the rest are "waste time"!