They're about to pass legislation banning elephants from cicuses. Circuses won't be teh same, but I can see why such large animals would be hard to care for on the road. I wonder woat the rationale is and who is behind this?

I don't go to circuses, I can't see how the animals are treated there. A baby-giraffe in a disco-spotlight? Can't have it!

elephants are social animals. the isolation is enough to make any critter lose it. plus, trainers are not trained to treat such a large animal (or small)with respect. think it boils down to education and compassion. i've not been to a circus in ages. not even the ones that pass through here. really don't care for them.

Absolutely hate circuses. Don't like clowns and the animals are so sad, and the freak show is revolting. Other than that...they're ok...! I think circuses are a guy thing.

I love love love the circus. The animals are rather sad, so I think it's good if they have legislation against that. The horses seem to enjoy themselves a good deal though. And I love those juggling acts and the contortionists and trapeze acts. Clowns are naff things though - they should dress them up as animals and make them take the elephants' place; that would be far more entertaining than blowing whistles and hooting hooters and pretending to fall over their own feet.

We've got one big Circus in Europe called Roncalli (Isn't that even a Swiss one, Riette?), which doesn't have exotic animals, just horses, dogs, cats and even ferrets! That's a nice one! Many of the little circuses think they must have exotic animals to be interesting, but they don't have the money to feed them and they are not even able to handle them right. At one of the circuses visiting our little village (and if they come here, they have to be REALLY little)I saw them beating up the camels and then wondering why the poor animals got so embarrassed!

Roncalli? I've not heard of that one actually, Isabel. The only famous Swiss circus I know of is Knie. Apart from them we get the Connelli and another one, but I never go to those; nothing happens. Knie is excellent though. The best circus I've ever seen was the Boswell Wilky, an African circus with a VERY african feel. Lots of music and dancing and stuff.

Circus owners and bookers are generally fly-by-night shady operators with no compassion for either the people or animals in their employ. Six or seven years ago in Honolulu, a circus came to town with an African elephant named Tyke. Tyke had rampaged and in three or four cities before, including Syracuse and Dayton (the circus had covered that fact up, but one of the Honolulu dailies uncovered it), and had to be tranquilized, but the circus did not take her out of service. Tyke snapped again, trampled er trainer to death and went on a rampage through town, breaking the leg of one of the publicists who tried to shut a chain link fence on her (DUH) and making a beeline for the state's largest shopping center, Ala Moana. Honolulu police didn't have tranquilizer guns (and for some reason, neither did the circus). HPD also didn't have a large enough caliber weapon to kill Tyke, so they pumped round after round into her with riot guns and .45 service revolvers, taking 20 minutes to bring her down and anoth r 20-30 minutes to kill her while hundreds, including dozens of traumatized children, watched. If that isn't reason enough to outlaw circus animals, I don't know what is. Also, dolphins in captive "swim with humans" programs have also been known to act agressively and unpredictably. Humans love being the lords and masters of all we survey, but I don't believe that God put these magnificent creatures on Earth for our amusement.

A-men

I also don't think wild animals should be in circusses - it is cruel. Circusses would be just as much fun without them; humans at least enjoy putting on spectacular performances.

They had a big story on this on Dateline NBC last night. They have these big metal hooks they poke the elephants with and some trainers just beat the elephants up because they're having a rough day and the elephants dont' talk back. Well they do, actually. After years of abuse some elephants go berserk and are often shot to death to stop them. But they are responding to all the abuse. There were a lot of graphic scenes of trainers whipping and beating the elephants with big sticks. The biggest problem is that they have to confined in boxcars and cages so much of their lives, and are only let out when they have to perform stupid tricks they're not in to doing. They did do justices to the ohter side and showed some examples of good treatment.

$hit, I wouldn't beat up an elephant, even if a bus ran over my big toe.

John, I well remember the Tyke incident. Terrible. Again, I say I can't stand circuses. Cirque de Soliel (spelled wrong, I know...) is only the two-legged variety of performer, if I recall correctly. Has anyone seen it?

nope but heard of it...

Cirque du Soleil is a wonderful performing troupe...I don't even really think of it as a circus. I antagonized my boss at the radio station a few years back when I refused to ride on the back of an elephant in a parade through town. Captain Craig Kamahele did it instead (he admitted afterwards how scared he was). Tyke rampaged a year later. I went to that boss (now deceased) and told him he owed me an apology. He died without giving it to me.

How about bullfights? Every summer now (since 2 or 3 years ago) there is much discussion in Portugal because a small border village has its traditional festivities which include bullfights in the spanish style, with the bull being killed in the arena, although this is forbidden by portuguese law. They discuss whether to stop this forcefully or pass a special law for this village alone, and in the end do nothing. The hypocrisy of it all angers me. I hate all bullfights and all animal suffering, be it for "entertainment" or "scientific" purposes. I usually and consciously play the ostrich about it, though, bury my head in the sand to not see, because I get too sick when I must face it.

Regarding the Cirque... I've seen 'Quidam' and 'O' live I've seen 'Mystere' and part of another (the name I cannot remember) on television. Gosh... incredible and enthralling are probably the most appropriate adjectives to describe the Cirque. Mystifying and engaging... Amazing... and yes, animal circuses tend to make me ill... as did the last trip to the zoo. The tigers had to share a habitat pen so they had these teeny 'cages' and then for a couple of hours everyday, they were put out in the 'habitat' (also very tiny). With all the animals sharing, most tigers spent the whole time just pissing to mark it as their territory again. Except for one tiger... he just kept licking the plexiglass... neurotic behavior, brought on by captivity...

How incredibly sad...!

I've seen the Soleil - they're FABULOUS!! Zoos here are absolutely appalling - even though THEY think they're doing a great job. I don't understand how they can take lions out of africa and stick them in a zoo; in Namibia, as in most african countries, there are SEVERAL rehabilitation programmes for orphaned wilde animals - there is no excuse for sending them to zoos. Cats are hunters - you take the hunting away from him, you might as well kill him. It's like taking away a person's Think.

Zoos may be a necessary evil if we want to preserve animal species, but keep encroaching on their habitat. But circus, making animals "entertain" humans and locking them up in small cages instead of large outdoor habitats is absolutely cruel. And as much as I love Hemingway, I hate bullfights and cheer for the bulls when the testosterone-overloaded morons run with them in the streets of Pamplona.

Zoos should hold those animals which are growing extinct, not lions and zebras and giraffes. Those animals HAVE a home - zoos make them into a circus act of another kind.

Good point.

this is true, but many people never get to see these animals in reality to understand what they're about. this is why i like busch gardens and their open habitats. the zoo in san antonio made me sick. i paid 8 bucks to keep these animals in concrete. it's education. that's what it boils down to. and to understand and have compassion. this is also why i'd like to work in a zoo. but zoos these days are all politics. i met an animal behaviorist (just what i want to do) who worked in the san diego zoo and he said he had to quit because he couldn't deal with the b-s anymore.

My ex began as an animal behaviorist but could not stomach the stuff they wanted him to do to the test animals just to find out things we do not need to know. Somewhere, somehow, rational people who cannot stand animal abuse must confront these things where they happen and promote legislation to outlaw them. It is just so hard to get anything going...and not be tossed off as an environmental whacko!

well, just like some folks like math and others english, there are people people and animal people. i am of the latter, for sure. there are some things i condone that some of these radical protestors would be infuriated over. you know, stuff like eating meat! wearing fur coats if you can't get a synthetic coat (i.e., native peoples), hunting but only if you eat what you hunt, etc. everything in moderation, you know? people just want to belong to something and then lose their mind in the middle of a "herd" movement. for this reason, i am against greenpeace, who promote violence in their efforts to help animals, and abortion clinic protestors who kill the doctors.

Amen!!! I could not have said it any better. I agree totally with what you say and your reasons for it. Moderation - whatever happened to it?! Sorry to post this herem but we need to get the word out as widely as possible - and your conferences seem to be busy (hey, I am a host here, too!!! Yippee!) If you value Spring and the discussions herein (not to mention the venting going on), do you realize this is Terry's web site for which he pays all the bills? Please, it is time to help with any donation you can afford. He has some pretty big bills to pay and he needs your (and my) help to sustain all of the stuff we are posting. Think if he had to cut back and eliminate some of - or all of - the conferences?! Please! Send contributions to: Paul Terry Walhus The Spring 9011 Quail Creek Dr Austin, TX 78758

Lawmakers Try to Ban Elephants at Circuses TALLAHASSEE, Fla. (Reuters) - The death of a Florida elephant trainer and the subsequent killing of the elephant responsible prompted two state lawmakers to file bills on Tuesday to ban the animals from most traveling circuses. Citing repeated incidents of abuse and the deaths of six people from elephant stompings since 1989, Rep. Curt Levine, a Democrat from Boca Raton, called on fellow lawmakers to ban elephant rides at circuses or traveling shows and prohibit the confinement of elephants for more than 36 hours at a time. The latest death occurred Jan. 26 when an 18-year-old, 4,500-pound (2,025 kg) female African elephant named Kenya killed Teresa Ramos-Caballero, 52, at the Ramos family's compound in a rural area near Tampa. On Saturday Kenya was found dead of undetermined causes. A criminal investigation was launched. ``These animals are perceived to be money makers for circuses,'' Levine said. ``But these attractions have enough else going on ... I think the shows would be better (without them).'' The measure also would prohibit the participation of elephants younger than 7 in circus performances and would ban the importation of elephants into Florida unless they spend 300 days a year within the state. Sen. Daryl Jones, a Miami Democrat, filed a companion bill in the state Senate. Animal rights activists have blamed occasional outbursts of violence from elephants on abusive training techniques that leave the massive animals wary and dangerous. ``The incidents we see are the direct result of abusive training,'' Pat Derby, director of the California-based Performing Arts Welfare Society, said.

Just seen a news thingy that three camels have been remanded in custody in Russia en route to some Zoo or other. Apparently their papers are not in order. The Russian Ministry of Agriculture has demanded they put down. I find this incredible.

were the camels on their way to a zoo in russia? i hope not, how would they stand the cold? granted it gets cold in the desert but not THAT cold..... i'm not surprised that they were held because of not having the proper papers. animals as well as plants can be smuggled with the false pretense of going to zoo or someone's garden. the plants i ordered from gurney's came in with a statement right on the package about them being legally obtained and stuff.

thanks maggie, that's the first i've heard of it (haven't been watching the news like i should)

I think they were en route to somewhere else. I'll let you know if I hear anything.

I found the newsitem. No further news. Three camels from Kazakhstan have been ordered to be destroyed after spending weeks in Belarus, held up by bureaucratic wrangling. The camels were bought last year by a zoo in the Czech Republic and were being delivered overland through Russia. But when they reached Belarus, the authorities said their papers were not in order. Eventually, the only zoo in the country agreed to give them a home. But then the Belarus Agriculture Ministry stepped in, and said the animals must be killed, because of the danger of disease. Belarus State Television was outraged, calling the decision barbaric and pointing out no ministry vet had even examined the camels. Customs officers refused to carry out the death sentence, and officials say a final decision will now be made on Friday. From the newsroom of the BBC World Service

Please keep us notified as to the result of the final decision. Terrible stuff!

no, all they have to do is quarantine them and get them examined by a vet. why do people think it's easier to destroy them than to deal with them. see, if i had room and lots of money, all the wayward beasts would be safe in my menagerie.

There is a lady in Virginia who was on Discovery Channel who does that with old circus animals and all of those sorts of lovely creatures. I can just see all 4 feet of you tall trying to lady-handle elephants and camels!

all it takes is a kind word and gentleness (i firmly believe that)

I don't think I'll try! *lol*

Wolfie, you are such a tender morsel you'd better have me hanging onto your feet just in case they are putting you on!

haha!!

i also believe they sense the inner you and know the kind of soul you are, so if you have a gentle soul, the better time you'll have with the wild things! (and a dose of healthy respect doesn't hurt either)...i wouldn't throw myself in with lions thinking saying "here kitty kitty" would prevent them from eating me! *lol*

Good! I shall rest easier knowing you are not gonna play Daniel in the Lion's Den. My house male loved ALL dogs until we were canvassing door to door to get people to register for the upcoming election last year. We were met by a land-shark (Doberman) who sword-swallowed his little umbrella and came for the arm attached. Fortuately we made it to the far end of the chain before the dog did and we never looked back. I no longer do door to door stuff for anyone!

*lol* he was doing his job, marcia! *haha* i don't blame you, if you see such a dog chained up in the front, don't chance going to the door!

Yup! I think he had just eaten the Welcome Wagon Lady and was looking for dessert. I do not get anywhere near strange dogs anymore. Out here Pit Bull mixes are big favs amongst the Pakalolo growers!

they make good guard dogs but because of their breeding (dobermans included) they are more aggressive even with gentle handling....

...and I understand from their owners that they are one-person dogs. So much for a family dog!

with brains as small as theirs, i can see why....

Drunken Raccoon Czechs In - Stowaway Lived on Beer and Dog Chow V I E N N A, May 9 � The stowaway arrived in the Czech Republic with a nasty hangover. The illegal was apprehended by the authorities � but not without a fight. But instead of being sent back on the first ship out, he�s become a star. Meet Vaclav, the raccoon who survived for weeks on beer and dog food. Did it Come With Cable? �He was one lucky raccoon,� says Vladimir Thichor, head of the animal clinic in Pardubice. �If that consignment of beer had not been on board, he would not have lasted three days.� Vaclav � named by Czechs with a wink at their ex-dissident President Vaclav Havel, another great survivor � traveled in a container all the way from Canada to the East Bohemian town of Pardubice, deep in the provinces. He probably crept in for a free meal when the container was being loaded in Toronto. But when the door closed, he was trapped for more than three weeks. Vaclav tore into the packs of dry dog-food, then looked for something to quench his thirst. Something told him to sink his sharp teeth into a six pack, and from that moment on, Vaclav was one happy puppy. So to speak. Didn�t Want to Leave As a result, when the container was opened, Vaclav did not want to come out: he had found beastie bliss. Two policemen specially trained in the capture of vicious animals were called in. Clad in protective suits and armed with gladiator nets, the team spent two hours trapping the rancorous raccoon, who fought them tooth and claw all the way to his allotted cage. There, he sulked in a corner and slept it off, suffering the raccoon equivalent of cold turkey. Nor was he charmed when he was given a bath to wash the beer residue out of his matted coat. Vaclav is now the darling of the Czech media. The Pardubice animal clinic�s phone has been jammed with calls offering him a home. Director Thichor, however, was not moved by the outpouring of sentiment. �A raccoon is not a family pet,� he said. �Vaclav will go to a zoo where everyone can come and see him � and where we will try to find him a mate.� Now if he could just get a television and a six pack ...

Don't forget the remote to go with the television. He's just a regular guy, albeit a bit furry.

Yup! Gotta keep 'um occupied.