Marcia, I have the first picture that I want to post. Could I send it to you to put in? PLEEEZE?

Congratulations, Ree. Namibia now has a place in our collective consciousness.

Wow, my lovely virtual wife has posted a topic about Namibia, I love it, I love it, I love it.

Yeah! You'll love it even more when I show you all the lovely Himba women!

Bring them on without delay, please.

Ree, you may send me anything without asking first - just put where you want it posted and it will be done with great pleasure!

John, do you think I need to start one about Hawaii - or have we spread it throughout the rest of the Spring ad nauseum already?

YYYYYEEEEAAAAHHH!

Please, if there isn't a HI topic in travel, please create one! That's a serious omission if there isn't one.

This is how the Namib Desert looks just after sunrise...Ree Walton

How incredibly spectacular! Watching this download for the first time is awesome. Thanks, Ree...You send, I'll post!

woow! That's amazing... a red river of glowing sand...

I really is amazing. Also, when you look at how small the dunes beneath appear, you'll get a good idea of how high the dune I was standing on is. It is called Dune 7, and it is the only dune in the Namib which is too big to shift. And imagine this: every time you manage to drag yourself all the way up that old monster, you see a completely different dune pattern beneath.

*giggle* yes Ree-head, you really are amazing! and lookit you... coming out of your shy shell and all!

Totally amazing! I thought it was taken from an airplane. Not only is it beautiful, but I must add my compliments to the photog as well. There's nothing like an artist's perspective! That photo is worthy of National Geographic.

What is the ethnic makeup of Namibia? What are the tribes?

WHHHOOOOOOPPPPSS!! Sorry, no that was really not meant as an 'I'! Marcia, the photo was an accident, really! Normally they don't look anything like that! The biggest tribe is the Ovambo, followed by the Oshivambo who live mostly up north in the Caprivi strip. Then you get the Hereros and the Himbas who live in the central parts. The other tribes are pretty small. You get the Kalahari Bushmen, the Namas, the Damaras, the Hottentots, and some other tribes as well - I just can't think of all the names now. I'll try and find pictures.

What are the major industries? Companies?

From Ree: This is Isa on an ostrich farm just outside the town where my mum lives. The farm is called 'Ombu' - the Herero word for ostrich.

That's really cute! Is that in the Kalahari? I know the man feeding the ostrich is not a bushman, but it sure looks like desert land.

That is one of the densest parts of the country!!! It's the savannah. The guy feeding the ostrich is a Herero; he was brilliant showing her how to feed them, and in the end she got to ride one! I'll try and find that photo as well.

Cool. Ostrich jockey, eh?

What's your record in ostrich racing, ree?

I managed to stay on for about 20 strides - then it threw me like no horse has ever managed. The bad thing is, you can't stay down and feel your limbs to see if anything is broken, and whether everything is moving; you have to get up and RUN, 'cos ostriches have a nasty little habit of kicking the $hit out of one.

I was just joking, but you really did ride an ostrich. I wish I had a picture of that.

Don't - it was not a pretty sight! And broken ribs would be all you'd see on the picture; apart from my crying like a baby!!! ha-ha!!

WHY AMERICANS SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED TO TRAVEL The following are actual stories provided by travel agents: I had someone ask for an aisle seat so that their hair wouldn't get messed up by being near the window. A client called in inquiring about a package to Hawaii. After going over all the cost info, she asked, "Would it be cheaper to fly to California and then take the train to Hawaii?" A man called, furious about a Florida package we did. I asked what was wrong with the vacation in Orlando. He said he was expecting an ocean-view room. I tried to explain that is not possible, since Orlando is in the middle of the state. He replied, "Don't lie to me. I looked on the map and Florida is a very thin state." I got a call from a man who asked, "Is it possible to see England from Canada?" I said, "No." He said "But they look so close on the map." A nice lady just called. She needed to know how it was possible that her flight from Detroit left at 8:20am and got into Chicago at 8:33am. I tried to explain that Michigan was an hour ahead of Illinois, but she could not understand the concept of time zones. Finally I told her the plane went very fast, and she bought that! I just got off the phone with a man who asked, "How do I know which plane to get on?" I asked him what exactly he meant, which he replied, "I was told my flight number is 823, but none of these darn planes have numbers on them." A business man called and had a question about the documents he needed in order to fly to China. After a lengthy discussion about passports, I reminded him he needed a visa. "Oh no I don't, I've been to China many times and never had to have one of those." I double checked and sure enough, his stay required a visa. When I told him this he said, "Look, I've been to China four times and every time they have accepted my American Express."

ha-ha!!! You are echoeing all over the place, Mr Burnett!

Yes, I am. I've seen these people and cringe when I do. But I understand that's only part of what gives Americans such a bad name in other nations.

See, Ree...there are Stupid tourists all over - not just bothering the National Park Service Rangers (as in "is this island completely surrounded by water?"). I've seen 'um too...!

Marcia, did you really hear a dolt ask that?

..a dolt adult...and David actually was asked that very question...followed by "Is it the same ocean on the other side of the island?"

HA! Brilliant! I did a really stupid tourist thing in Manchester this time though. I spent my last 2 days in a little hotel on the far side of the Whitworth gallery. I wanted to go into town, so I got on the bus and asked the driver if he was going to the city centre. He nodded. So I asked what the name of the stop was where I had to get of. And he looked at me with that 'DUH!'-look on his face. Then I knew what the name of the stop was!

It could have been some street name...that was a perfectly legitimate question. I might also have asked...!

Some bus drivers have absolutely no compassion for out-of-towners who ask perfectly legitimate questions. Sounds like the stereotype of the snooty and condescending French waiter. Of course, I'd be pissed, too, if people called me "Garcon" all day.

Neat topic, Riette!

THanks, Autumn! I need to put in more photos though. I'm just so damned lazy...

Scan'um and I'll post'um!!!

Ree, have you checked out africa.com. They're running a special on Namibia right now, and I thought of you.

THANKS, Maggie!! Fabulous!

How was it?

africa.com is a very interesting and informative web site. Thanks, Maggie, for telling us about it!

Where IS Maggie?

What did you think of the Namibia coverage on that site, Ree Ree?

To be honest I didn't look at it in detail - it seemed to mention all the popular places. I paid more attention to the countries that I still want to visit, like Egypt, Tanzania and Kenya. Most of all I want to go to Na�robi and from there do a 8-10 day safari; I've always wanted to see the Kilimandjaro (how does one say it in English?) for real. Just imagine this huge Alp lost somewhere in the middle of nowhere in Africa. It must be like a dream come true.

When are you going back to Africa next?

Ree, the only place I have seen Maggie post other than once on one of my topics in the past few weeks was on Phinished conference - she is laboring to complete her degree, and we may just no hear from her till she thinks she has that part finished to her (and her professors') satisfaction! We wish her well!

Defenitely. GOOD LUCK, Maggie! Terry, early December I'm going to London with Chris as a sort of birthday present (it's my favourite city in the world), but somehow I also have to manage a stopover in Glasgow to deliver a painting to the Scot who commissioned it for his new house. AFter that I've got a Cyprus trip planned for February; I was there 5 years ago, and have always wanted to go back to show the girls. So, that's what we're going to do next. In about May or so I want to take a long weekend sometime to go to London with sa - a mummy-big-girl thing, to go see a musical together, because she's a music/dance nut. And in June or July a train journey to friends in Germany, because Elza loves trains. That means we'll probably be in Africa late summer or early autumn when the year's studies have been completed. Have you got any trips planned for the next year?

Hi I'm back! Thanks for the concern. Yes, I am laboring on the thesis. Ree, I'm working on some Namibia data right now. Once it's in a decent state I'll send you a copy for your comments. I'm doing an overview on the language situation in sub_Saharan Africa and the languages used in education - a massive table! But there's also a couple of Namibia papers I've been working on. Sounds like you've got some fun travelling to do Ree! I always wanted to go to Cyprus.

I'd love to read your work on Namibia, that would be very interesting. But the stuff on sub-Saharan Africa and the languages would interest me a great deal as well - that is, if YOU don't mind. I love learning languages, and finding context in and around them, as well their history and the way they evolve continuously. It's just fascinating.

What languages are you fluent in Reehead?

Afrikaans, English, German, Flemish, Dutch. The last 2 don't count though, because it doesn't take much to learn them when you know Afrikaans and German. I speak some Herero, but it's slowly going, because I never practice it anymore. I also know a little zulu from when I visited the Ndebele artists (all women) of the Natal in South AFrica - that's a REALLY beautiful language. I'm trying to locate a zulu person here who can teach me more, but so far haven't had ANY luck. Nama is also a very nice language, with a rather erotic way of expressing things - I know a little of that. Next year I'll be studying Latin as part of my Law course, and that I'm alr ady working on. It's great, and a language that I WANT to become fluent in. And I want to learn Greek. How about you? Do you like languages, Terry, or are you more a person for numbers? I wonder why people who are good in languages are normally not SO good in numbers and vice versa.

Wow! I'm impressed Ree! I'm trying to work on my French right now so I can feel more comfortable in Mali next year. I find it so difficult to learn languages out of context. They also seem to disappear if I'm not using them. I never did learn Latin at school, but I think I'd find it really hard because it's abstract rather than concrete. In the sense that I can't hear it everyday, and just have to learn lists of words. I tried that with Greek which I did a year of at college and had a really hard tim learning lists of words. Maybe I just have a memory problem!!! In the table I've just done Namibia (to my surprise!!) came out as the most linguistically diverse in sub-Saharan Africa using the formula of 'largest language group as a percentage of the total population'. My listing has 28 languages for Namibia! That's just to whet your appetite - more later.

How embarassing. All I know is a tiny bit of high school French. Hey, but Ree Ree didnt' list French in her list so I feel a little better. I think you have to travel and use languages to learn them.

Some Hawaiian, more Spanish but not enough, and a few words in Japanese, Welsh (I can read it more than I can ever hope to speak it)...but like most Americans I am monolingual...*sigh*

Terry, I think if each state in the US spoke a different language, we would be better linguists. In Europe that is the case and they have to learn amost by osmosis if they move about the continent at all. How lovely that must be! Gi speaks several languages, as well as writes in them proficiently.

That's right. If one grows up with alot of different languages around, then learning them is just something you DO - you don't think about it. And that's the key to learning languages, I think; you mustn't think it, you must feel it. In Namibia EVERYBODY speaks at least 2 or 3 languages - most people (especially the black people) speak more. With people who grow up in countries where only one language dominates it must be far more difficult to develop an ear for languages - therefore one has to rely he vily on memory when learning a new language, and that must be pretty tricky, I imagine. Also pronunciation must be so much more difficult when your ear is not accustomed to unfamiliar forms of speech. When I learn a new language now the vocabulary and pronunciation comes really quickly, because for most words I can find a word with a similar meaning in another language, and with a sound that can remind me of how the new word will sound - and so make an association without much effort at all. Even now with Latin. Terry, you're right: I don't speak French. I like the language, but everybody learns French and German and Italian and so on. I know only ordinary sorts of languages; I've decided taht from now on I only want to learn more unusual ones.

But I would imagine picking up French would be a breeze for you.

Did you learn a click language Ree? We used a few Xhosa and Zulu words in phonetics - even learnt a Zulu click song.

Oh, the famous Miriam Makeba song! I love that one, and she is one of my favourite singers. Zulu is SUCH a musical language that all the clicks just happen in rhythm. I don't know any Xhosa though. The most fascinating click language is Bushman though. I don't know it, but have heard it alot, and a bushman girl told me that how the click is pronounced also determines the meaning. The Namas and Khoikhois also speak a click lanuage. Nama is very earthy and quite sensual. They live in the Namib desert and in the spring they go and dig in the sand for !Naras (! is how they write their clicks, whereas the Bushmen use ! or #). A !Nara is is a type of wild melon, with thorns on its skin, and they use the sweet-tasting pulp, which has a strong herbal smell and taste, to make soup, sweets, jam and even pancakes with. Often they also dry the seeds in the sun and sell it to dealers in to ns on the coast, who export them as a delicacy. Well, in their tribal culture, they have a song of praise that they sing to the !Nara around the fire at night before going out to look for them in the morning. I can't quite remember the words, but in English it goes something like this: You round food With many thorns You many-breasted Foster mother of our children Even if I am far away I will think of you You food of my ancestors I will never forget you. I think it is a beautiful way of expressing the significance of the fruit in their tribal existence.

It is beautiful. Hawaiian has chants to the food (and gods responsible for providing them)are almost as eloquent. Perhaps John could reel one off for us when he is finished his radio program today... I do not have any handy and am not sure where in this library of mine I might find one.

Interesting! I don't know Miriam Makeba and although we can 'sing' the song I don't know what it means!!! (dangerous that!) It's been passed on by one generation of phonetics students to another - so it's probably corrupted! (chinese whispers). I've not heard of that kind of melon. Have you tried it?

Yes, the !Nara also grew on my grandfather's farm. It needs almost no water to grow. The taste is indeed a strong, herbal one, but we used to peel it, stick in the freezer for a few hours, then put sugar on before eating it. VERY refreshing when you hit 42�C.

mmm sounds nice.

It sure is. Except if you confuse it with a wild watermelon - which is more bitter than ANYTHING one can imagine. Once I picked up a wild watermelon in the field, thinking it was a !Nara, because they look pretty much the same. It was hot, I had no more water, so I made a hole in the skin, and started to drink the juice. I literally couldn't breathe, and started gasping - that's how bitter it was.

ooh nasty. Our girls liked 'green' mangoes - do they grow in namibia too?

No, we don't have those. What is the difference between 'green' mangoes and other mangoes? We don't have any kind of mangoes - unless we grow them with care in the garden; the climate is far too dry for them to grow like they do in most other parts in Africa. But, because they grow so easily in other parts. we import them very cheaply.

Sorry, green mangoes are just unripe ones. Are they sour! - but the the girls ( and m9st of the local kids) loved them. They still won't eat ripe ones!

;=}

OH! That's weird, Maggie! Why won't they eat ripe mangoes?? No, actually I know already. Because kids are just weird. My grandma always got upset because we'd never eat oranges from the trees - only lemons and limes. I think I'd DIE if I had to do that now.

What's the wierdest thing you've ever eaten????

Meat - just kiddin' Has anyone eaten snails (*shiver*) or frogs ? Can any plant you can think of eating be nearly as disgusting as eating special animals? (Gawd, this should teach me getting vegetarian...)

I've had snails - they're quite good. But when I found out they were snails I didn't like them anymore. And frogs I've not had. In Namibia you get these really huge ants, called 'balla-biter' ants. When I was a kid I used to eat them with red hot peppers from the tree. It was the worst sour and burn together imaginable, and I loved it. I also stole onions from my grandma's garden, and ate them raw. My 3 year-old is like that too. The more spicey a thing, the bigger the chance she'll eat it.

We had fried grasshoppers (?locusts?) in Cameroon, they tasted a bit like crispy bacon? They also had these huge grubs which they fried. I declined. I've never had frogs or snails, although we used to eat Whelks when I was a kid which are sort of sea snails. Do they count? I only remember them tasting salty.

Anyone ever eat coagualted raw pig blood? I have by mistake (thought it was something else at a baby luau) and it is the nastiest thing I can recall eating. Ate raw limpets, also at a luau. I refuse to eat the raw crab or raw sea urchin since they are bottom scavengers who eat decayed "stuff" off the bottom of the tide pools...Eeesh! (I know - so do Lobsters!!!)

Oh, how utterly FOUL!!! Both of you! PEW! Go wash out yer gobs!

Sorry I started it!!!! Now what else can we talk about?

Wash out their gobs? What in creation is a gob? (so they'll at least know what to wash) Or do I dare ask?

(Terry, I think it is your mouth, with which you gobble vittles...but not entirely sure, especially when it comes from our little Ree...*grin*) Did you never have your mouth washed out with soap?!

The mouth it is. Terry, honestly! You can be so filthy-minded at times ...

I guess our colloquial ENGLISH just isn't understood! I did wash my daughters mouth out once when I'd said I would if she swore again at me, and she did, so I had to!

What! You mean a clean cut kid like me?

For a clean cut kid you're pretty hairy, Terry!! Maggie, that's cool! My mum always says, Never threaten them with the kind of punishment you can't carry out, 'cos they WILL find out and make best use of the factI' It sure works with mine! At this stage the most effective punishment is to take their Tom&Jerry tv time away in the evenings. But I must admit that bribery also works wonders....

Better still, do not threaten...Promise! It worked for me, and he knew it! TV is great deprevation and so is scrubbing the porch...an extra time!

OK, hairily uncut kid then.

...but cute, nonetheless...*smile*

Yep. Terry's cool.

It must be the mouldy cheese you keep sending him that is HIS *cute* secret

Hey! That happened only once - when I sent the video, that is. And I bet he fed it to Tami's cat!!!

No, I ate it except the moldy parts. I didn't feed it to the cats. It was delicious.

What kind of cheese was it? (Other than mouldy...)

Some kind of very good Swiss cheese, it had a name that evades me.

(I figured as much.) Were there holes in it? (The Swiss are very good at this sort of thing, and they made oodles of varieties...I am sure it was delicious!)

OK guys(and gals), back to Namibia - Riette, some questions for you to help my research. A while back you said Ovambo is the predominate group. I found that in my listings it's called Kwanyama ( and also Ochikwanyama, Kuanyama, Humba, Kwanjama, Kwancama, Otjimbo, and Owanbo) Is Ovambo the correct Namibian name for the language? Does it mean both people and language? I also have it listed as an 'official' language whereas Herero is not. What do you think? I also can't find any figures for numbers in N mibia, apart from 421,000 in Angola. Is it mainly a second language or are there lots of mother tongue speakers? That'll do for now. Thanks a bundle.

WEW! The Ovambo people and their language are officially called 'Ovambo' in Namibia. Herero is indeed not recognized as an official language, and as far as I'm aware only Ovambo is an official black African language. I think that when Ovambo is spoken it is mainly as a mother tongue. It is recognized as an official language because of the sheer number of Ovambo people in Namibia, not necessarily because it is universally known. I have quite a long article on the Ovambo here, but unfortunately it doesn't contain numbers either. Shall I post it anyway?

If you don't mind posting it then yes, please (I'll email you). I wonder if there's a site somewhere with figures. I tried Unesco.org and it's an interesting place to visit! (Unesco I meant). I have a facinating book on hand at the mement by Putz called Discrimination through language in Africa, perspectives on the Namibian experience, published by Mouton de Gruyter, 1995. Another place you might like to try sometime is oneworld.(org?) Its a platform for lots of NGOs (non-governmental organisations) and is an absolute fund of knowledge about all sorts of things from environmental issues, to countries, languages etc. I'm in a foul mood I just spent all afternoon reformatting my hard disk, lost all my links, although my data's backed up. Now I need to learn to use my new Zip drive properly! Grrrr

Visto gives you 20mbs of disk space with which to store files, you may want to use this as one of your backup sources also. Link from http://www.spring.net to Visto.

Thanks Terry, I'll follow that up. I'm getting paranoid about my research data now - it's getting to critical mass stage!!!

That's good though! It's better to have to sift through material than suffering from lack thereof.

Ree - on the subject of languages. Try http:///www.kli.org/KLIhome.html and tell me what you think..... I think it's a challenge! I also found http:///www.linguasphere.org/ which I think you may enjoy. i tried some of the spin off links from there too. Good luck!