staying safe

Wear lot's of leather and boots. Ride within the limits of your bike and always..always..expect a cager to do the unexpected.

Pay attention.

Entertain a small positive fear.

Very true, Yves. The second I quite being afraid of motorcycling is the second that it ceases to be fun and ceases to be safe. Also, Motorcyclist' cover story this month is "How to ride faster, smarter, safer" (complete with a guy doing a wheelie on a GXS-R--go figure). It's got some good stuff--if only you could remember all these techniques. Next spring I'm going to take another Experienced Riders Course with the Motorcycle Safety Foundation. I find these classes very helpful.

Expect all other road users to be total Idiots, occasionaly you will be pleasantly surprised, Ride within your limits (and those of your bike) Beware wet leaves, drain covers, white lines and (whats the polite way of putting this?) the stuff the animals leave behind, all of which have casued me to fall off in the past

Beware liquids in the road, it's not always water, as I found out once pulling out of my office in Jamaica on the bicycle; I went right into an oil slick and fell. Fortunately the approaching traffic was far enough away for me to be upright and on the side of the road when they came. I always wonder what would have happened if I were on a motorbike.

Only time I high-sided was on oil on an entrance ramp. Very Surprised. The fear factor is one I've had since day one and I think evrything kind of follows nicely afterwards, keeping me safe. I invariably feel guilty along with a rush after a roadrace skirmish. I'd say I run 80-85% 95% of my time. And I see more lunatics on bikes every season.

Yeah, I've had a high side myself--hit a patch of oil in the rain. Totally my fault because the intersection was one that takes about 4 minutes for the light to change so cars just sit there and drip oil. I was in a hurry to get home and out of the rain--well, you can figure out the rest. A little patience don't hurt.

Taught me real good. Had just slowed because I was being eyeballed by a sheriff's car, leaned to exit and BAM saw the bike going under me in the opposite direction; Quaker State can dribbling oil onto the edge of the road. Gravel's even scarier because it's everywhere here. Maybe signs that say "Do ya feel lucky, punk?" might help?

A nice healthy combo of all of the above, ESPECIALLY the first two on Shebees list, gotta watch the morons, cause they ain't watchin for you.... Shane

Hear Hear! And the morons include truck drivers, car drivers, bikers, cyclists, pedestrians, in short: EVERYBODY! The drivers here in Quer�taro are as mad as those in Jamaica!

The cyclists are watching you. They're terrified you'll run 'em off the road either physically or with all that noise!!

Nah, I don't think bicyclists have much to fear from a motorcycle cuz we motorcyclists are really paranoid about hitting anything. A car could hit a bicyclist with only a minor scratch. If you were to hit a bicyclist on a motorcycle, it would be bad news for each of you. I have an uncle who used to ride his bicycle 100 miles per day but he got into three accidents. Made a terrible mess of his back--it's dangerous out there, no matter what you ride.

Always wear boot, long pants, long sleeves, full-face helmet, and gloves. It puts you in a mind-set that you can get hurt out there. There are lots of sensible clothes that can protect you and you don't need any fancy "motorcycle" clothing. Needless to say, do your bike pre-checks and keep that bike in a safe condition.

What about safe cornering? Any recommendations here?

Good question. Mostly the issue of cornering safely is speed (I think most single bike accidents occur in a corner and mostly cuz the person was going to fast), but there is (as in all aspects of motorcycling) the issue of attention. Slow down for the corner, keep your head/eyes pointed through the corner to the exit of the turn, then gradually accelerate. One good thing to learn is how to brake in a corner comfortably and safely. Some people believe you're not supposed to ever put on your brakes while leaned over, but learning to do so calmly and in a smooth manner is a great skill.

What about techniques of landing if the unthinkable happens, and your bike drops in a corner? Can you do things to prepare yourself and land more safely. I once saw a film clip of Evel Knieval landing after a crash and he just rolled and rolled till he popped up unscathed.

Landing techniques, hmm... Terry you are right, try to roll (this also applies to falling down stairs :)) Get away from the bike! Kick it away from you, jump off it, what ever it takes, but dont get stuck under it! Sliding down the road on your own will give you gravel rash at a minimum, sliding down the road with the bike on top of you is worse! You also have very hot bits on the bike, a friend came off with only a little grazing, but a nasty 3rd degree burn on her leg, that needed skin grafts, from the exhaust where she was trapped under it A different friend also suggests, if an impact with another vehicle is unavoidable, at the point where it all goes into slow motion aim for the cleanest, least rusty bit of the car, you dont want tetanus to add to your troubles!

Whew! Landing? If you can think fast enough, protect your hands, close to your body, and try to stay almost in a ball. As Shebee says getting away from the moving mass of metal is priority one. When I got off, I bounced, over the bike, on my back, then went into the balled-up position. Luck helps more'n anything!

You want to low side. If you lose traction in a corner and the bike starts to slide out, leave the brakes locked. If you let off the brakes you'll regain traction and instead of a simple slide out, the bike will flip up and over, likely making you airborne and possibly landing on top of you. That's called a "high side". Trust me, I know.

Well I hi-sided, believe me. Having time to think was out of the question. I feel most go down due to mireading a corner and proper cornering practices of countersteering (Iknow, an old saw). As to going down alone, I don't know; I've seen 3 crashes when riding in small groups, due to the rider not thinking of riding as such but more showing their stuff, and forgetting foolishly about something simple. Trail-braking takes practice at really moderate speed (55) to get the feel for it. Practice includes kno ing the bike you're on, as i find going from a longer wheelbase ride to say, a 750, makes me concentrate on the quickness of handling different lean available.

ouch. Thanks Jim for the helmet plug. As ridiculous as everyone seems to think they are, and those few who rant about "freedom to bash their brains in" helmets are a pretty good idea. Friend of mine was hit by a moving van (running top speed through a red light) and her helmet saved her life. She didn't come out unscathed, though. She was in a coma for 3 weeks and spent a while in rehab. Now, two years later, she is back to her old job -- mechanical engineer and gingerly getting back on the bike again. I strap one on to ride 3 blocks... and remember her story everytime.

I wrote the words "Anti-Tiger Device" on the back of my helmet in Jamaica. Tiger was one of the better dance-hall artists in Jamaica; not much on meaning, but he definitely had style. He generally rode without a helmet, I think he had a CBR600 or a Ninja 600. Anyway, he crashed into a limousine and sustained brain damage. He can function (after long rehab, more than a year), but he can't perform well on stage any more.

I owe my life, such as it is, to Bell Helmets. I see other brands I'm attracted to for one or another reasons, but I'll give my money to Bell, figure I owe it to 'em! Bought Bell bike helmets for the kids too. Only time I get on without one is to move the bike a short distance, even then I feel guilty.

and those few who rant about "freedom to bash their brains in" helmets are a pretty good idea Well, I rant about the freedom to bash your brains in too, but I'll always wear one. I've been around the block sans helmet on a standard style bike--I can see the attraction. And as a civil libertarian I think that it's a personal choice to decide, but you won't see me without one.

They just overturned the bicycle and motorcycle helmet laws in Austin. Except for kids under a certain age.

I always wear a helmet when I ride a motorcycle (unless I'm offered a lift on the pillion and don't have my helmet), but I never wear a helmet on the bicycle. I don't own a bicycle helmet, and I've never seen a bicycle helmet with a proper brim, which I consider to be a very important safety feature, as it keeps the glare out of my eyes. My full-face helmet has the same problem, but I get around that by leaving the visor up to reflect the sun from my eyes, letting my glasses take the brunt of the wind. I've seen an open-face motorcycle helmet with a fixed brim here in Quer�taro for N$300.00 (300 new pesos). If I find that I can afford it, I'll either buy it for prospective pillion passengers or wear it myself and let the passenger wear my current helmet (I bought goggles before I bought my full-face helmet).

Frank (the Bell patriot), Bell has also taken me through 2 pretty nasty bifs. A barbed wire fence and I got into a struggle a few years ago after bombing down a tricky singletrack. Thanks to Bell and Vitamin E there are few reminders of the five strands of wire that slid (uncomfortably) over my head, neck, right shoulder, side and thigh. The other big one was out at the Rifle Range outside of Austin. A perfect endo on "scary downhill" plopped me perfectly on my head -- denng the styrofoam, cracking the sh ll but leaving my head just a little foggy.

Wow! Glad you made it through both mishaps. I've a barb-wire story too but it's not bike related (o;}. Funny thing is how I rode my bicycle for years & years without a helmet and never had problems, now most everyone wears a lid. Twice I've tried motorcycling without a helmet for a few miles and really didn't care for it, the whole "in the wind" deal. I see guys in Connecticut all the time flying sportbikes down the interstate, helmetless, can't figure out how they stand it much less why.

Bell makes bicycle helmets? I didn't know that.

Yeah, Frank, it would be miserable on a sportbike sans helmet because the windshield is designed to force the air in your face. No doubt that these bikes were designed to be ridden with helmets.

You all need to re-think your helmetless short, close to home jaunts on the bike... Just like the automobile, most horrific crashes on motorcycles happen within a 10 mile radius of the owners home, at speeds under 30 MPH.... What is the phenomenon?? Over confidence!! When tooling around close to home you are generally familiar with your surroundings and "know" where you are going..... This automatically causes your brain and senses (or lack of em LOL) to become relaxed and the next thing you know your goi g for a spill, or getting plowed by the guy up the street because "He didn't see you" and you weren't watching for him.... One must NEVER let there attention lapse due to "Comfort with surroundings", It'll kill ya.... Oh, and I enjoy the OPTION of not wearing my helmet pretty regularly, and I have no desire to Bash in My Head, Pick Gravel outta my Arms and Legs, Suffer 3rd Degree burns..... I just like to think that the decisions I make are MINE, And that I am responsible enough to live with the consequences of those decisions.... Shane

I agree Shane. As I said, a helmetless ride for me is usually a parking-spot move, where I don't want to push the bike. I do remember that statistic in the car and on the bike. Going around the "block" here is taking your life in your hands since it's all blind bends and hill, and the drivers are pretty wild despite the "children playing" and "school bus stop" signs. A perfect setup for an accident.

Shane, I respect everyones' decision to "bash their head in" but dammit, if youre the overconfident biker that slides across the lane into my car, I sure as hell don't want your gray (now red) matter all over my windshield and my conscience especially when it was your (hypothetical situation) own damn fault! I'm all for allowing people to kill themselves but just don't take someone else (emotionally or physically) with them! A MTB runnng through sketchy terrain needs a helmet as much, or more, than the ne t guy but if he bites it, it's on no one else's shoulder, windshield or conscience. It's just a shame.

I see it a little differently. First of all you don't have a wreck and say "if he'd had a helmet he would have been fine". There are way too many variables involved and it just can't be determinted. Are you safer with a helmet? Undoubtedly. But you're also safer if you stay home. And statistically you're much more likely to seriously injure another automobile passenger than a biker. Should we force helmets in all cars? Should you just stay home?

Home? Noooo. A plane could lose a motor that fall on your house..Better wear a helmet there too :o) Yves

There ya go Stacey, feedin' the bears....(o;

LOL! Hee. That's funny. You know something? It's actually illegal to wear a helmet in a car. Something about obstructing your sense of sight and hearing....

Speaking o' Bears and Snow, to quote Pooh: "I'm feeling a bit more snowy behind the ears than ever before."

What famous ex-Texas governer rides a Harley Davidson?

Ooops. Sorry, this got posted in the wrong place. If you know the answer, go to the next topic after this one and answer there.

Stacey, take a look at the number of motorcycle fatalities where the motorcyclist is at fault... Oh, and your windshield would wash, and my choices should be no excuse for someones (even mine) lousy driving.... Shane

I wonder if we're going to have to mount and expedition to dig Stacey out of the snow today?

Ann Richards... I'm too lazy to go to the next conference. Feeding the bears, eh? I get into these kind of discussions. And about forcing people to wear helmets in cars (beyond the fact that these people are 'usually' protected by four sides and a roof) we do make them wear seatbelts. Alright guys, enough for me. I better get off the computer before a power surge blasts through my CPU and sends fatal amounts of electricity through my fingertips and cooks me from the inside! :)

American car companies stopped making convertibles in the Seventies because they thought that they would be outlawed for being unsafe (The power of Nader and NHTSA; fortunately curbed now.)

Really stacey, then we'd be talking about you in the cooking conference. Snowgirl!

No one can get a word in edgewise in that conference, so talk away!

O.K., this is off topic, but... Two things. For those keeping up with the saga of my vehicle, I've bought a brand new "Chevy Tracker" (they've canned the GEO badge, which is fine by me--it's still made by Suzuki). Here's a pic (this is the color--it's actually very close to British Racing Green--the ultimate auto color): Notice that XRoads was down for a day or two--we can expect intermittent reliability as I have no control over the administration and upkeep of the server.

What's XRoads?

XRoads = Motorcycle CrossRoads WAS the best conference board for mature motorcyclists of all types, very similar to this board here. Brought together bikers from all over the planet to discuss different aspects of their favoritye sport/pastime. Father: Jon Lind

Frank: "XRoads = Motorcycle CrossRoads WAS the best conference board for mature motorcyclists of all types, very similar to this board here." No offence to Terry, but it still is; although we don't know for how long...

How can this be?

Because the server is in someone else's hands, unfortunately. We yeild control, but not our resolve!

The existence of XRoads relied on me working for an ISP. As long as I had access to a machine that was on the Internet 24/7 and was running NT or 95 we could run the XRoads software. But now that I don't work for an ISP I have no way to host it. That's why I found you. The software is quite excellent. If you'd like to check it out, Terry, goto this address: http://linus.i70.net:8080/ when it asks for a username and password, just invent one.

All this time CrossRoads was for mature motorcyclists and no one told me?

Really like your site Steve. Those Brit bikes are gorgeous. If you know anyone interested in a 1972--all original, extremely fine condition, Triumph Bonneville 650 let me know! For Mature Audiences only! hehe

So that's what you look like! Shame that I don't have access to a scanner! Don't worry, Steve, I don't think they'll throw us off!

OLD is a state of mind! "I have nothing against growing old, its growing "up" I want nothing to do with!" "What do you mean I going through my second child hood? - I havent finished with the first one yet!" I'ts nice to have reached an age where you are no longer childish - just "odd" (I'd be excentric, except you have to be rich to be excentric :) )

Why does Steve's face look familiar? Hmm. BTW, when say "mature" riders, I figure you understand that means squids need not enter, unlike much of what I see elsewhere (MO, CW, a la AOLchats). Yoo're as young as you feel...

SInce "eccentric" means "off-centre", you probably fit the bill!

Do y'all want to see what Stacey looks like? Stacey, is it ok to post that picture I have of you?

What's the deal with you collecting pictures of women Terry? (Very big grin). How much did you say he was asking for that Bonnie, Brad?

I haven't heard from Stacey for days now. Last e-mail I got from her was on Tuesday. I wonder what happened to her?

I have a lot of pictures of women... I just don't have any women! I wonder if Terry has the same (raw) deal?

Jon, the asking price is $3,500. I think my bud is somewhat flexible. He is moving and needs $$$. She's a beauty. A sale would be a real Triumph!

I assume it'd survive a ride from the D.C. area to Colorado.

What was the topic again?

That is a good price for a Bonneville. They usually sell for more than Nortons and I got $4500 for mine a couple of weeks ago. Yeah, the president of the Utah British Bike Club has no British bike but you ought to see what I'm doing to my Ducati!

Putting in rotten gaskets and Lucas electrics? :-} It took me three tries to get the word "electrics" right in the above sentence. What does this tell you about the influence of Lucas?

Steve, thanks for the info. on pricing. Jon, if you are interested the offer stands. The owner is in England (how ironic) right now, but will be back at the end of next week. I'll keep you posted. And Sam, yes, I presume it would survive the ride. However, I would never make a ride like that on a bike I didn't know inside and out. I do have a friend (an HD dealership mechanic) who owns several Triumphs (in addition to HDs) who could give it a thorough mechanical evaluation if someone is really serious. Matching salad bowl helmet is not included. Other restrictions apply.

I might be serious, Brad. I could afford it about 2 months from now. The new Tracker is making things a tad tight right now. I'll check with you then to see if he still has it. As for getting it back, I'd prefer to ride it, but you're right--if it was a low miles, late model Honda (or any of the big four, for that matter) I'd have nothing against flying in and riding back. But that might not be an option with an old Triumph.

Could you post a pic, like you did with your bike?

Oh. I just noticed the "he is moving" part. Damn. Too bad the timing isn't a little different because I could probably be on a plane in 6 weeks to go down and buy the thing. Oh well. You sold the Norton, Steve? Goodness why? It was one of the most fantastic bikes I've ever seen (a picture of). Gorgeous.

I'm putting this in "Safety" cuz it wasn't too safe, but here's the story of storing my bike last weekend. There was a 40 foot stretch of solid ice straight up hill going to my buddy's garage. I had ridden 20 miles on the horrible rear tire to get there. So my brother gets on the bike, gets on the non-icy dirt road and gets a flying start. Wipes out about half way up. Hilarious. After getting that far it took us about 20 minutes to get the ramaining 20 feet. Neither my brother or the bike were damaged very much (he had a sore ankle the next day, but nothing bad).

Jon, yes he is moving, but not out of the area--that's not the issue. The issue is getting $$. He isn't actively selling it yet, but he may put it in the paper soon. I will try to get a pic and scan it for ya. I don't think a couple of months would necessarily be a big deal for him depending on how committed you were. He comes back from England tomorrow, and I'll get some info from him then. You have a name to live up to! :-)

I'm back! I spent the last few days standing out on I-25 heckling motorcyclist w/o helmets and eye protection... windy!

Now Stacey, would you really do that? Respect is a two-way street, lid or no lid. There is honest disagreement about the benefits of helmets, and the statistics are not as one-sided as you might think. Sometimes helmets work well, and sometimes they can be a liability. There are no absolutes, and heckling helmetless riders is nothing more than a fast way to get a sore throat! hehe The best defense against head injuries is rider skill training, not mandated helmet use. It always has been, and it alw ys will be--demogoguery notwithstanding. If you don't agree, you'll be far more effective lobbying your legislators than the folks with the wind in their hair. He who willingly trades freedom for safety has neither.

It doesn't matter cuz the bikers went by so fast that they couldn't hear her anyway.... What about some earnest money in a month or so?

I think that would be fine. We'll talk--I won't let him sell it without giving you right of first refusal, and I'm sure he'd work with you on the $$ plan. Meet my loan officer, Vinny! He likes animals! hehe

Brad must've missed the debate some weeks back. First of all, duly noted with the respect thing see responses way back when. Second of all, there ain't no way in hell I'd stand outside and freeze MY ass off telling some silly fiend to cover his head. I'll take the Darwinian approach and say that those leaving pieces parts of their brain on the highway shouldn't be reproducing anyway. Just keep the blood off my newly washed car! Whoo! I better be careful with my excuses for being absent in the future. I shoulda just told ya'll I was puking my guts out last week! *smile*

Puking would have been acceptable... :o)

(LOL) okay, I'll remember next time. But if you ever see some girl flagging down cyclists on a busy highway... just think about it, okay?

We almost always pay attention to girls flagging us down! hehe Nice pants!

LOL! Hi-larious.

You washed your car? A luxury I can't afford. See, where I live you wash your car and it's covered in mud as bad as when you left by the time you get home. It's frustrating because it's a pretty color paint and I actually *want* to wash it (something that will wear off soon enough). It'll probably be a few months before it gets washed. Ah, the luxury or asphalt.

I wash my car 2x a year on average -- I get noticeably better gas mileage for a few months afterward! The inside even got a vaccuum! Hey Brad, they may not be flagging you, make sure you pay attention to which finger they're waving! *smirk*

Hee. Yeah, as sexy as we motorcyclists think we are, I've never had a girl actually flag me down....

OOooooohh!

One reason why I want a bike, apart from the fact that it can get me to Ocho Rios when my legs won't) is that it has a pillion, to be used just in case... Since this is about staying safe, perhaps I should get some boots...

I'd say get some boots, not just for safety, but because riding will wear out whatever is on your feet. I have some $120 tennis/hiking shoes I could use (would last *maybe* a year as often as I used to ride), or a $100 pair of Wolverines (the soles will last about a year but I can have them resoled three times before I need new ones). It makes good economic sense.

Jon, do you put your feet down when cornering????????Or to stop??????? Yves

Sam, you might see if you can get some of those new "low" boots they have now. i believe Motoport carries good ones for about $75. They aren't high like boots but offer decent protection and durabilty, better than hiking shoes. in your climate and riding conditions I don't know that you'd need a full boot.

Hee. To stop. I use the "right foot on the brake, left foot goes down" technique taught me at the Motorcycle Safety Foundation class so my left sole goes first. When you put 15,000 miles a year on a bike, almost all of it in town, it'll wear out your shoes.

I'd say use a full boot for safety's sake. It's a small trade off to have your foot/ankle completely and securely encased in heavy duty leather to ensure that there's little chance of getting your toes scraped off. Sure, a full set of leathers will cut into your comfort and might not be your style, but the trade for wearing boots (mine are even steel toed) is minor, in my opinion.

We're talking boots..cool. Just bought a pair Cabella's Wellingtons (low heel, rounded toe boot). They're black with 200gm Thinsulate lining and a Gore-Tex booty. They should arrive tomorrow via UPS (or so they promised). I'm tired of lacing up my hunting boots (same lining and booty), though they're very comfortable and heavy. Left foot first, eh Jon? Wonder if you can replace just one shoe..hehe. Stacey, didn't I see you out on I70 a few months back? What? I didn't hear that..eh? er..Speak up..hehe. You had to be joking I presume. This is a good bunch of people. A refreshing change.

This is a good bunch of people. A refreshing change. Hey, thanks alot!

Coulda been joking... but isn't reality sometimes a joke?!?!

Prefer a stiff Hiking Boot........ Not the old brown bombs that weighed a ton but the new ones that they have are almost like a tennis shoe... Lots of ankle support, they are a leather and nylon mix, and they provide great traction, most of all they're comfortable....

Let's get back to the helmets; it was so much fun. Can't understand why people wouldn't want to wear a full-face helmet. Forgetting about safety, the ride is so much quieter and more enjoyable. And what about all those bugs and tree stuff that keeps banging off my helmet? I wouldn't want that stuff bouncing off my noggin. Back to safety, it's like the safety belt issue. It's the law and you gotta do it. If people don't have sense enough to wear a helmet, then they should be required to. It's against the law to jump off tall buildings, a form of guaranteed suicide.

Allright Jim! I'm not fighting the masses on my own anymore!

Yeah, but there's something to be said about the wind in your face--ever drive a convertible? It's the same thing. I've only ridden a bike without a helmet around the block, but I can see the attraction.

Even with a helmet, you can still have the wind in your face! And, yes, I can also see the attraction. It's just that way to realistic visual that gets going in my head... brain matter on the road.

Jim said " Forgetting about safety, the ride is so much quieter and more enjoyable [with a full-faced helmet]. Not for me it's not. I like the feeling in an open-faced helmet. It's lighter, and easier to see and hear. Besides, I bought a bike to have my face in the wind. If I wanted to be isolated from my surroundings, I'd be inside my car. Jim said "it's like the safety belt issue. It's the law and you gotta do it. If people don't have sense enough to wear a helmet, then they should be required to. It's against the law to jump off tall buildings, a form of guaranteed suicide." What's the punishment for that??? hehehehe. Perhaps we should let more of them jump!!! With respect to helmets, the facts on helmet safety are far from one-sided. Sometimes they help you, sometimes they hurt you (like breaking your neck). Riding a motorcycle is inherently risky. IMHO, helmet laws are a politically correct cop out. The best injury protection has always been, and will always be, rider skill training. The rest is called personal responsibilty for your own actions--something too many of us, IMHO, are willing to abdicate. Responsibility? Isn't that why we pay taxes? hehe

One last time--it's called Freedom. Something we take for granted here in the US, but which is being whittled away. Since when is it "the land of the free (if they choose not to hurt themselves) and the home of the brave"? Freedom isn't about doing things that are safe, necessarily. If only those things which are safe are allowed, how is that any different from the worst tyranny? And besides, if you follow that reasoning, the next logical step is to ban motorcycles--even with a helmet they're more dangerous than almost any car. Please tell me the difference between this argument and yours?

Jon Ive stayed out of this one so far, but thats a very valid point

I agree with Jon *and* Brad. There's freedom of choice, and the feeling of freedom by itself. Old me, I remember when there were no full-facers, and I wore 'em. The full face seemed a logical (to me) progression. There are definitley times I like the open face helmet, as in NYC riding, there *is* a definite peripheral vision advantage and increased awareness. Before hitting the thruway I switch to full face, a precaution that takes an easy 3 minutes easily made up once I roll. First "Choice" is always the full facer for me.

Oh, I agree. Unless I'm just putting around town at 2000 rpm, I want the full facer. And on the crotch rockets, they are actually designed to be used with a full face helmet, so I always wear one on the Ninja.

I wasn't trying to be deragatory about wearing full-faced helmets. My point was to simply illustrate that two people can easily see the world in very different ways, and neither way is the "only" way. I have a full-facer too, for the coldest of days. Not a big fan of chapped cheeks--either set. hehe Are you going to jump of this tall building? Here, borrow my helmet! hehe

Isn't it great we can have an intelligent discussion without getting upset. Begrudgingly I must admit that there is more than one point of view. I don't think this is a major issue for bikers. There is a great need for attention to a lot of our needs and I think too much energy goes into the helmet issue.

So true, Jim. Some say it's cuz of me that XRoaders are (for the most part) so civil and we haven't degraded to what's happened at Motorcycle Online, but that's not the case--XRoaders are (luckily) a good bunch of folks.

I don't think it's luck. XRoads attracted a good bunch of folks; it also attracted a psycopath, but fortunately Jon got rid of him. I actually wanted an open-face helmet, but there wasn't one available when I went to the dealer; that's why the "Anti-Tiger Device" is full face. I was thinking about buying another helmet in Mexico to keep on the bike incase I had to carry a pillion rider, but they started at a 300 pesos that I wasn't sure I could afford at the time, and I was carrying a lot of other stuff home as well. Jamaican riders don't give much thought to safety. At least half of the riders I've seen don't wear helmets, almost no-one wears gloves, no-one wears a leather jacket. Part of it is lack of knowledge, part lack of funds, and, as for the jacket, nobody likes being baked very much. (Jamaica is HOT!!!)

Sam, what will be your solution for the jacket?

I have no idea. There aren't any out here, and the ones I saw in Mexico were all over 1,200 pesos. I should have bought the gloves, though, but I was never sure of my financial situation. I'll look for some here, or ask someone in Miami to find some there, and I'll repay them.

Sam, the new perforated leather jackets are a great option for hot weather riding. Would it be worth checking with Tony Scatton to see what he can do for ya? Tony and the Tiger? hehe

Damn, I missed all the fun! Jon, as we've discussed before, you make valid points and ones that I agree with. My stance is and, always has been, you SHOULD wear a helmet. My methods have only been those of encouragement (sometimes through derision !) and I have never pushed for more stringent legislation then already exists. For the individuals I care about, Idemand bicycle helmets. Cars are big and fast and trail rocks and trees are unforgiving. For those who I don't know, and who don't care enough about themselves -- all I ask is that you don't muss up my windshield. Helmets are a bright idea and, when worn properly (not way back on the head and w/o a firm strap hold) are MUCH safer than riding with no helmet. Jackets and boots and the rest of the motorcycle garb... I don't know enough about to have an opinion on. Road rash is a fright on a bicycle (or skates!) but crusing at 60+ mph... all I can say is OUCH! So all you springers... just use your brain. (I think) you're all adults and perfectly capable of making intelligent decisions. I've heard the arguement from one or two that when they wear a helmet, they feel less in control of the bike (for visual and balance reasons). You are supposed to know yourself best and your skill level. Just (as the conference topic implies) stay safe!

Really we don't want to lose *anyone*.

Yeah, I like to wear my leathers. Even with my leathers on in my last little 30 or so MPH get off I had road rash (from my leathers and my jeans abraiding my knees). I can't imagine what even a 30 mph get off would do to you if you were wearing shorts.

Stacey said "Helmets are a bright idea and, when worn properly (not way back on the head and w/o a firm strap hold) are MUCH safer than riding with no helmet." That position is certainly the popular opinion, but not scientific fact. It really depends on the situation. A more accurate statement would be that helmets can provide good head protection in low speed impacts, and provide a barrier to skin abrasion under sliding conditions. The only thing that can make you MUCH safer is good riding technique to avoid accidents in the first place. So all you springers... just use your brain. (I think) you're all adults and perfectly capable of making intelligent decisions. In this case Stacey, I totally agree with you. How about mentioning that to your State Representative? Just (as the conference topic implies) stay safe! That's always the goal. That's why I will be attending another MSF Experienced Riders Course in the spring. Hope many of you will choose to do the same. A good offense is the best defense!

I have a helmet, but no organized riding course and no other safety gear. And, as I said before, I do not have a bicycle helmet, and if it has no brim or visor, I do not want one. If it is a choice between better crash protection and decreased risk of a crash, give me decreased risk any day. That is why, with bicycles at least, give me a cap or hat with a good, wide brim over a shadeless helmet any day. Dark glasses are not an option, I've yet to see an effective pair of clip-overs, or one that lasts more than a week (I'm just about blind without my glasses).

I have clip-overs. So I never forget my clear glasses for night riding, I have them on the nose...

What brand? How much did they cost? Where are they available? Most of all, how long do they last? I have never had a durable pair of clip-overs!

Neither have I, I used to buy 2 at a time and try for the metal-framed ones. Now with contact lenses for 25 years or so I see advantages and disadvantages for both.

I bought contacts for one reason and one reason only (I'm about the least vain person you'll ever meet). I got sick of having to take the glasses off, set them on the seat (where they invariably fell off), put the full facer on, pick the scratched glasses up off the ground and put them on. Contacts are much, much easier if you're putting 1000 city miles on the bike a month and taking your helmet on and off.

Yes but you still have to be careful. You see better w/contacts, just by the pure physics involved. But I have to watch how I turn my head, especially with an open face helmet, so either dirt doesn't blind me or I don't lose the lense, which happened once. And yes, you look *so* much better without eyeglasses!

I have an open face helmet(except for spring and automn driving).I could drive without glasses but for me it's also a safety gear(against durst, bugs,,,). I bought the clip-overs where I bought my glasses so they are (optical and physical wise) of good quality. They cost me $30.00 Cnd. And I well understand for the full face It's really a "bug".

I should have got prescription safety glasses; maybe I will when I get tested again and have my prescription changed! If I wasn't so miserly (or so broke!) I'd get some prescription sunglasses! Maybe those would be the safety glasses!

My only statement on the Helmet deal is this: YOU have a right to YOUR opinion and to decide how safe you want to be, I have a right to mine, If YOU wish to wear a helmet, put the damn thing on and lets go riding... just DON'T push YOUR opinions on me... I have plenty of my own.... :o) Shane

Now if we could all get our State legislators to agree to that sound principle, we would really have something. Bunch of hard heads! hehe

It isn't just the Legislatures... It's private interest groups that get funded by the Government... NHTSB, to name one or the IHTSA for another... Whenever you put special interests like insurance companies in bed with the government there is bound to be trouble.. It isn't about what is right or wrong for an individual, that is the smoke screen, it's all about spending the MONEY they take from us all year long, in order for them to make MORE MONEY..... And thanks for the compliment Brad...... Shane

You bet Shane. Influence (and shaping public opinion) is the name of the game. Unfortunately, it's something MCers have too little of, although we're gaining ground. You gotta fight for your right--not just party! Beastie Toys...hehe

Man I love 2 cents time! Let those who ride decide, that statement goes "BOTH" ways my friends. I am a ABATE an AMA member so YOU can have the right to ride "WITHOUT" a helmet if you so choose. On the other hand, will you all quit giving me so me HELL for weaing a helmet! I wear a lid because I "percive it will help me in a situation", it helps protect my eyes and gives me a quiter ride. I am not a communist because I prefer to wear a helmet, but you'd think so the few times I have botherd going to a ABATE chapter meeting! If you want wind in your hair and BUGS in you teeth, fine by me but I DON'T. This crap that you can't be a "real biker" with a helmet is "Easy Rider Viedo's" BS, as the shirt says $15,000 dollars and 15 miles (ie: to the local bar and back) don't make you a biker and just becuase to "WEAR A HELMET" don't mean that Iam any less a biker than you are! Thank you for the u e of the soapbox, I feel much better!! Tailwinds, BJ

Hey, I don't give you HELL for wearing a helmet, BJ. ;-) I agree! You should decide before you ride. Hey, if you don't wanna wear one, great! If you do wanna wear one, more power to you. I won't go around the block without one, but that's my choice. Just wanted to make sure you knew that I (and I don't think anyone else here, but you're right--some do) is accusing you of being a commie for wearing a helmet. I just think it should be up to you to decide.

Hee, don't sugarcoat it BJ--tell us how you really feel! Just remember BJ, some people in ABATE don't wear helmets because their heads are already too hard! Freedom of choice, not freedom to chastise!

Whoa, BJ!!! Rein in there dude!!! hehehe, I believe the statement I made earlier was 'If you want to wear a helmet, put the damn thing on a let's go for a ride'... I understand your sentiment though. I try to coorect those that I meet who criticize those who excersize their right TO wear a helmet. The whole thing is about CHOICE... I personally think as long as you have the right to make the choice, mission accomplished. And Brad's statement is true, some MRO's get so into the fight, that they lose sight of what the fight is actually all about. ABATE is ALWAYS looking for a few hard heads..... hehehe Shane

Sorry guys, didn't mean to make it sound like it was "directed at YOU"!! It's just that man I am sick of getting crud and being deemed less a biker or less and freedom loving American just because I want to wear a helmet. Infact Iam going back to a full face this year and whoever doesn't like it can bite me!! It get's me really hot under the collar but I know you guys and gals are all cool so if I offended anyone here's my sincere apology. Tailwinds, BJ

No apology needed BJ, Throw on the Lid and Let's go Ridin'..... Even though I prefer not to wear them, I have several of my own.... Shane

Part of the "biker" deal is that you stand up real big for your beliefs no? Anyone who wastes time telling me what to wear & when sees my back real quick.

What's a biker? One that rides a bike, no? Wimps aren't allowed to ride bikes? Seriously, I don't understand the biker "attitude" or the biker "mystique". A biker, as far as I know, is someone who, for whatever reason, chooses to ride a bike. The investment hunters and status seekers see riding the bike as a secondary thing, or even an annoyance or a hazard in some cases. Some ride because they want to ride. When I start riding, I will be riding because it will be more affordable, less wasteful, and more fun than driving. My standing up for my beliefs has much more to do with m y upbringing than any "biker deal"!

To me the definition of a "Biker" was someone who only rode a bike. But now that I own a car, my definitions are changing....

I think that the various attitudes and lifestyles demonstrated in this room would be a good definition of a Biker.... Jon said I was the real thing (biker) the other day... I think he was trying to say I needed a shower... Heee Shane

Well I was brought up to beleive that a "biker" was a outlaw rider, hardcore chopper rider than rode in "gangs". A bike rider who rode many miles and great distances was a "motorcycle enthuist" or high miler or iron butt. All the rest where just a "motorcycle rider". But now it's all jumbled up, when a Electra-Glide riding lawyer who rides 1,000 miles a year is called a "BIKER", then the whole defination thing goes out the window!! Oh and don't forget the "SQUIDS" for the sportbike crowd and "crotch rocket riders" and Lead Slead riders and the Touring Barage riders, see what I mean. Someday, we will all grow up and realiaze we are all just plain old "motorcycle riders" as long as we are on two wheels and that's all that should matter. Ride to live, Live to ride is what we all really want, who cares about the rest! Tailwinds,BJ

AGREED BJ!

Whew! I missed all the fun stuff! BJ, my definition of a biker (as I perceived it) was also someone a little left of the center line. And it holds true in the non-motorized circles. Hard core riders are actually called cyclists -- and the term is not used lightly.

Stacy, well most motorcycle riders call bicycle riders "bikies" but cyclists sounds much better. In the 80's I was really into bicycle touring but it went from "enjoying the ride" to "how much exersize can it get"! It quit being FUN and became work and heavy competition in nature and I bailed! I had 2 multi-state tours, a century and double century ride to my credit and then did some novice Mountain bike racing, it was at least FUN but I never took it seriously! Wouldn't mind finding a good road bicycle again but I doubt they have 3XXX lycra bicycle shorts, ha ha! Enjoy yourself but I will stick to the "motor propelled version's) Tailwinds, Bj

Stacey last week the NY Times had a "business" article about how Cannondale in particular is starting to design & market a new breed of XCountry bikes to appeal to (natch) the "older, more affluent bicyclist desiring a well-made rugged bike with more comfort than the pure mountain machines". Soon the RUBs can have a TrailKing parked next to the Hog!

Ya Frank, but it's really hard to get a trailer through the woods on those narrow little dirt paths! hehe Introducing the Cannondale Soft-tail Cycle!

And they called it SoftRide...

Left of center? I don't know--I'm a right wing biker myself... ;-)

All the bikers in England are Left Of Center... Right Shebee??

Jamaica, too! Caution: Left Hand Drive! heeheehee

Thats me : left of center on the roads, way off center in life! :)

Not trying to freak anyone out. I think these statistics are actually positive. Deaths are still going down! Almost half of the deaths involved single-vehicle accidents (many alcohol-related), and one third involved unlicensed riders! To me, that means there is a lot of potential to dramatically lower the death rate in the future. Let's stop talking helmets and start getting to the root of the problem! �In the United States, 2,075 motorcyclists died in crashes in 1996, down 3 percent from 1995 and 33 percent fewer than in 1975. �There were 52 deaths per 100,000 registered motorcycles in 1996 compared with 18 deaths per 100,000 in cars. �Thirty-one percent of all fatally injured motorcycle drivers in 1996 didn't have valid licenses to operate their motorcycles. �Forty-two percent of motorcycle deaths in 1996 occurred in single-vehicle crashes, and 58 percent occurred in multiple-vehicle crashes. �Forty-five percent of deaths in single-vehicle motorcycle crashes in 1996 involved drivers with blood alcohol concentrations at or above 0.10 percent. An unlicensed/uneducated/untrained/drunken rider = dead rider!

I admit; when I was a kid & found out that you could buy without a license, I went and did, for about a year. Then several friends got popped and I figured "hey I can do this" and got the license, etc. Trouble is many smalltown police look the other way and don't check. "Rider Ed." ought to be mandatory as soon as you're a permit holder IMO. This would contribute all around; state coffer, the MSF school, and the riders themselves. What'cha think? And yes, alcohol + riding = death

In the United States, 2,075 motorcyclists died in crashes in 1996, down 3 percent from 1995 and 33 percent fewer than in 1975. True, but only about as third as many people ride now. But I agree--stay safe and stay sober and you'll probably be o.k.

Frank, I like the idea of "mandantory" MSF training to get a Lic. to me it just makes sense. Iam tougher than you, though I'd like to see a "mandantory" Superbike school required for riders to purchase and ride a "sportbike",(600cc and up). The kids in my area are always on the ground cause the dealers will sell them ZX-7's without a lic. I don't feel the "average motorcycle rider" has any where near the skills to ride a serious sportbike well. MSF will help but a Superbike School would make them reliaze just how powerful machine they ride, maybe they would respect it more. Just because you rode some old "beater standard" for 10 years doesn't mean you can "truely handle a serious sportbike". Required training is the best answer! BJ

Absolutely Frank and BJ--need the skills before you use the tool. BTW Jon, I believe the rate of deaths per 100,000 riders has also decreased, which would factor out any changes in the absolute number of riders. Education is a rider's best friend!

BJ you'd like it over here then recently they have introduced stepped lisencing in addition to the compulsory basic training. it works like this (ish - because i have a full unlimited lisence from years back so I dont know the specifics) 1) you have to do compulsory basic training before you are allowed on the road at all 2) you can then ride a bike up to a low powerlimit, i dont know what is but the bikes are generally 125cc. If you dont take a test within 2 years you lose your lisence for a year and then have to start again with the CBT 3) you can take a test that will allow you to ride a bike up to a higher powerlimit again I dont know exactly what power but the bikes are around 400cc 4) you can then take a 2nd test (class A) for a bike of unlimited cc/power (I think you have to wait 2 years and the test has to be taken on a bike arround 400cc) BUT if you are over 25 you can go from the CBT to the 400cc test immediately. This is the basics of the system here. I belive all of the tests require proper training, just riding around for a couple of years learing bad habits wont get you through! but again if you are over 25 it is possible to take an intensive course that will train you from CBT to class A test in a week! This is what a lot of the 30+ beginers are doing and may be at least partially responsible for the fact that our worst accident statistics are no longer the 17-19 year olds but are 30-35 year olds with less t an 6months experience riding bikes of over 750cc. Training can teach you to pass your test, but there is no substitute for experience in keeping you alive, I dont know of a way to teach the 6th sense that develops over the years, the sense that puts you on immediate alert and warns that warns you : "that driver hasent seen me" or "I can smell diesel, lets not brake hard just at this instant!" An aquaintence fresh out of his test on his 1200 Sporty was nearly wiped out recently when a car in front suddenly changed lanes without indicating at 70mph+ on the motorway, luckily my insticts cut in and I threw my pillion weight to one side and we avoided the impact. His reations just werent up to the unexpected, I was ready for it because I had learnt to read the road ahead and was half expecting the driver to do something silly I agree that training is important, but it should not instill false confidence that you know everything, if I had'nt been on his pillion he would have been splatted! I am still learning after 20 years on the road, but the main thing I have learnt is treat all other road users as complete idiots, expect the unexpected, and occasionally you will be pleasantly surprised. Oh and I dont ride pillion with him any more!, well not for a couple of years anyway :)

Of course you are right Shebee--there is NO substitute for experience. Training is designed to give you the knowledge to make better decisions, but not to substitute for experience. However, the lack of training is surely a receipe for disaster. The English system sounds interesting. I guess I would not think of the cc class of the bike as being a key ingrediant, since the lower cc bikes can actually be MORE dangerous--lighter, quicker, etc...But I like the idea of a graduated approach. I think a different option might be to restrict licenses in to certain conditions. To begin with, no license, no bike! Other limitations might be things like day riding only, or restricting the right to carry a passenger until you can demonstrate the necessary skills. But Americans don't take that kind of regulation lightly or very well, so it probably has zippo chance of being implemented. Remember, this is the same country where you can walk into a store and buy a submachine gun! I think in reality, if we could just get all states in the US to adopt the MSF courses as the baseline requirement for a license and bike purchase, we would see a dramatic improvement. The only change I would make, is that in order to get a license, you would have to pass the test on your own bike! Hey, look mom, no hands!

Shebee, oops You got me wrong there, Yes I do believe in mandantory training but I do humbley agree with you that "experiance" is the only way one learn's to ride well! Personally your lic. system would not work well here as a 125cc bike would get you killed on our interstates but I have no problems with say starting on a 400 to 500cc machine for 2 years. It's stated in our MSF riders courses that the most "dangerous time for a new rider is the first 2 years"!!!! That's why if someone takes the Beginner MSF course, they are incouraged to "take one or two full riding seasons's, then come back and complete the "Advanced Riders Course". My problem is that at current status in the Coloines at the moment, a 16 year old kid can buy and ride a CBR900RR (Fireblade) with no "TRAINING AT ALL", I have been riding for over 20 years and I can't handle that bike anywhere near it's potentail so how can a hormon charged 16 year old do it, he/she is just a fatality waiting to happen, IMHO!! Let's face it a slow moving cruiser or standard would surfice to train new riders on better than a CBR1100XX or YZF-R1 but that's not what the "kids" (the future generation of motorcyclist's) want to ride but it would be better for them. Nothing can replace experiance but I'd sure like to give them a real "fighting chance" to be around long enough to "GAIN THAT EXPERIANCE". Tailwinds,BJ

I agree with everyone, but the key IMO is that the dealer shouldn't sell any bike first without "proofing" for a license. Once that's established perhaps the riding novice can be encouraged towards a formal Rider Ed. course. the biggest problem by far is the unlicensed or "permit" holder riding out of the dealer on whatever his parents co-signed for, be it dirt or streetbike. Horrible. Also, don't we all know some person who has actually been riding for Xm number of years, but not well? I do. Riding with these (guys) is almost more distracting than cages. Like spending "shooting time" with a rowdy, y'know? The hated word "Education", it's got to happen.

BTW at least on dealer demos you've gotta show the license/endorsement. I missed one demo this fall because though I could ride the sidecovers off the bike (a Buell) I forgot my damn wallet when I shot out of my house! But if I just went in and said "I'll take this bike", with money etc., can you imagine the possibilities if I was a disco-squidder?

Well, I can tell you that every HD dealer I have been to requires a license with an endorsement for motorcycles prior to sales. Some even require it to get on the list! Maybe for HD it's a way to eliminate the wannabees and keep the list a bit more managable. They're just not as desperate for buyers I guess. You want some ID? Will my high school yearbook picture suffice? hehe

I don't believe in mandatory anything. A, it would reduce the number of riders and scare some away from getting into riding. But more importantly (and I'm a radical lunatic in most people's eyes these days for believing this) is freedom. We live in a society that's so used to being pushed around that government mandates on how we live our lives, how we take care of ourselves, etc. is completely accepted and even desired. It's a shame that it's gotten to this point that we've forgotten what freedom was like.

Hey, Jon; can ya (legally) drive a car without a licence? In Jamaica you can ride a bike with a learner's permit and "L" plates. You're not supposed to carry a pillion, but I have almost never ridden without one (the owner of the bike!) You can also register a bike on a learner's! I intend to take my test once I've mastered the bike (if I ever get around to fixing it!)

Jon, ok I understand were your coming from, maybe government control in any sort is bad. So we just return to the "strongest survive" and let the squids rot in the sunlight and feed the buzzards! Humm, there is "no way" to have absolute freedom my friend as some sort of social control has to be enforced or you could just "shoot your neighbor" cause his music is to loud. We'd all be wearing 6-guns, yeah ha! Welcome to the Thunderdome! BJ

Hey, I can see not selling a bike unless you have a license. Also, if the dealer decides (and this may not be at all bad, as Brad pointed out with the Harley dealers) that he doesn't want to sell a bike to a guy without a license, or if he wants to somehow encourage the new rider into taking a course, great. And no, I have NEVER proposed that murder is o.k. That's the same argument you hear all the time "yeah, you can't have freedom because then you could shoot your neighbor". Bullshit. Freedom is not about no laws (even in the old 6 gun days you didn't get away with it--people came looking for you, causing you to have to live a miserable life moving from town to town ala Billy the Kid, et al), but a reasonable amount of laws. I'd like a show of hands. How many of those here started out a little wet behind the ears, maybe bought an old bike from a neighbor and took off riding, perhaps saved your money and bought a bike from a dealer, but all in all didn't take the "safe" prescribed root to becoming a motorcycle rider? Was it about doing something because it was safe? Was it about doing something because it made sense? No, it was about riding. The other thing is that this argument about "mandatory safety classes" is identical to the helmet law--it's an arbitrary definition of what's considered an acceptable level of safety. As I've said before, some believe you shouldn't leave the house without full leathers, others think that a T-shirt and no helmet are fine, and some are afraid to leave the house because even that is too dangerous. Should you leave the house without MSF training? See, personal safety should be a personal decision, n t some arbitrarily mandated rule passed to make someone's life safer. The other thing is that we live in a world where we honestly think that we've got some kind of scientific solution to everything. People die in car wrecks? Mandate air bags--it's a magic hand that will save you. People getting pregnant? Classes about the birds and bees. People losing their teeth? New chemicals to keep 'em healthy. People dying on motorcycles? New laws about protective gear and more classes, that'll fix it! The fact of the matter is that you've got to avoid wrecks to be sure to walk away from them, almost everyone knows the birds and the bees and they act on their own morals, everyone knows you need to brush your teeth, and everyone knows that riding motorcycles is dangerous. And, most importantly, everyone has a right to decide at what level of "safety" they want to lead their lives (or whether or not they brush their teeth, etc.). And that's how it should be.

So we just return to the "strongest survive" and let the squids rot in the sunlight and feed the buzzards! I'm going to be crucified for saying this, but why not? Where's the problem with this? We somehow believe that we can have freedom to a certain point, but hand over freedom elsewhere. "The government can't tell me how to live my life, except...." Where do you draw the line? Why is it not o.k. to have the government tell us how to vote, but it is o.k. for them to mandate that we have to give up motorcycling if we chose not to sit in a certain class. See, "The Line" is completely mandatory and is set partially by society and is constantly pushed further and further by politicians trying to get ahead. "I'll pass this law to reduce motorcycle injuries, saving millions of dollars". "I'll pass this law to reduce gun deaths, saving millions". Do these laws work? Who cares? They results or success are never examined, but one thing is for sure--our freedoms are whittled away bit by bit. I'm not some conspiracy theorist who believes that there is some group of individuals plotting to take our rights from us piece by piece. Rather it's complacency. "We're comfortable where we're at, what's a few less freedoms gonna hurt?" Over time, more than you think.

Well Jon, you have stated things well. I understand your fear of the political or bureaucratic "Line". My approach is a little narrower, perhaps; we, as experienced, live motorcyclists, *can* be responsible, without being complacent, to the sport by advocating structured rider training and licensing *before* purchase. My angle is "if you want to really know what it's about, get instruction/do it right" and your enjoyment will increase exponentially. I'm not for giving the "governors" free rein at all. But simple example, by experience: you are not a Squid, you run your favorite route, let's say 3 years, ev ry week. Takes you 30 minutes. You take a Penguin course or whatever. Now you're running that route in 20, smoother, more aware, *enjoying more*, and staying alive.

..I think this sort of encouragement *should* be part of every dealership. I think bikes should *not* be sold used without a copy of a license from the buyer. Yeh, this would make it more elitist in a certain respect, but I think it should be. If you can fly a sailplane, and have 1.2 million dollars, should you be allowed to buy that old fighter-trainer in Robb Report? IMO, NO. I think the HD dealer procedures mentioned make tremendous sense, I respect it. The government didn't have anything going on there, but it helps eliminate a certain group in a way. This has to do with "Staying safe", not "restricting lives", in the long run.

I ask again, if you need a licence to drive a car, why shouldn't you need a licence to ride a bike? I don't know what a driving test is like in the U.S. (it probably varies from state to state), but here in Jamaica, if the system is followed (which is probably rare) one has to first take a written test to prove knowledge of the Road Code, then one has to prove that one can successfully reverse, park & hill-start the vehicle, and finally one must drive the vehicle on the road with one's instructor beside you and the examiner in the back, giving directions. That's for a private car licence, a commercial icence includes a written test with mechanical questions and a test vehicle within the weight limit of the licence to be assigned (I'm probably one of the last people to have an 8000 lb licence, they've gonne metric now!) There's a similar test for motorcyclists, but I don't know the details. I intend to find out, though, and TAKE IT (once I'm competent, that is; I WILL be riding on a learner's permit!) If you have to prove your competence to the authorities in order to drive a car, why shouldn't you have to do the same in order to ride a motorcycle? Hell, if the Government of Jamaica (which is an old draws!) required bicycles to be licenced, I'd gladly pay up IF it is linked to instructions in the Road Code! THere are a lot of dangerous bicycle riders out there!

I agree about the class. I took the first MSF class I could take when I bought my first bike, and didn't get my license until the week after I took the class. As a result the bike sat mostly idle (I did practice some on this little deserted street near my grandparent's house) for a month until I finished the course. I've taken the ERC course twice since then. That means I've taken MSF courses 3 times in the last three years of riding. I think the classes are good. But I think helmets are good and I don't propose forcing someone to wear them. I like to vote for a certain party, but I don't propose forcing others to do the same. But you're right, I don't mind encouraging people to follow my ideas--if I didn't think that they were good ideas I wouldn't have them in the first place. So encouraging the MSF is a great idea. Lots of posters at bike shops, bike shop proprietors pushing the courses, maybe even a new angle especially oriented toward sport bike riders. Not "learn how to ride like a maniac", but something more along the lines of the superbike schools--to make the sport riders feel like they're only doing it halfway if t ey haven't taken the classes.

I never said it was (or should be) o.k. to ride a bike without a license. (I believe in freedom but anarchy doesn't work.) If you get caught, you get in trouble, your bike is towed, etc. I'd say it was a bad idea. If I ever said that riding without a license is O.K., please point out where.

You're right--with a car if you pass a certain level of competency, you're given a license. You don't HAVE to take a class (although many do). Why should it be different for a bike? Because riding a bike is harder? Hell, make the test harder if you must, but don't make it even harder to ride. Besides, I know people who had ridden dirt and street bikes on their farms for years who could out ride me even after I took the class. Why should they be forced to pay $120 for the class and waste three days? Sure, they'd be a bit more safe, but why should *I* have the authority to force that on them?

If your not safe it dos'nt bother anyone. But if your not safe for others, there is a problem.

You can be a threat to others on the road, no doubt, but on a motorcycle you're less of a threat to others than in a car. And let's face it--we've got some real idiots out there driving. I know because I used to be one. I didn't become a "good" driver until I started riding. Nothing like the fear of immenent death to keep you honest! Besides, I think that overall most bike riders are more aware, pay better attention, drive/ride more defensively (the skills learned on a bike translate to a car as well) and generally are safer on the roads. Therefore we should encourage as many people as possible to ride. The second you require an MSF course, you're going to see participation drop off drastically. My dad (only halfway jokingly) proposed that everyone be required to learn to drive on a bike. I think you'd see the general safety level on the roads increase dramatically. Of course, I don't propose this, but I do think that bikers are generally better motorists all the way around.

But doesn't getting a licence require taking a test? Proving that one can competently operate the machine on the road? Or are these courses at a higher level than the riders' road test for the licence?

Sam, in Colorado if you take the MSF beginner's course and pass you don't have to take the "driving portion" of the motorcycle test. As you stated, the motorcycle driving test here is a "JOKE" and the MSF course teaches much more than slaming on the brakes and not dumping the bike and going thru a row or two of traffic cones. Jon, I still don't agree with you but I see your point, I still feel strongly that the "Beginners MSF course" should be MANDANTORY to get a lics. If a new rider is not willing to take the course and chooses not to ride, that's ok with me, who needs more untrained squids on the road!! Now the "Advanced MSF course (ERC)" should be on a "volunteer" basis for riders of "non-sportbikes" but I still firmly feel that anybody who is serious about riding a sportbike should be required to take "Superbike/Class/etc. training". You should have to get a special lics. to drive a "high performance car too" (ie: sport car) IMHO there's a lot of difference between a 911 Targa and a Suzuki Swift! Ok, so am a Tryrant but that's the way I'd like to see it! BJ

All of BJ's statements in the first class apply to Texas too. Take the MSF class and you get an insurance break, don't have to take the riding portion of the test, etc. Even after I took the MSF I wasn't much of a rider, but still passed the test with flying colors. The only demerit I got was for not putting my foot down properly--even though I was doing it exactly as the class taught. The class said slow down and put your left foot down right before you come to a stop. The testing officer said hang oth feet out about 20 feet before you stop. So even the MSF and the DMV aren't in sync! It's o.k. if you believe this, BJ, but if this was implemented it would seriously hurt the sport. You'd see alot fewer riders. Heck, what if you work an important job from Wednesday through Sunday? Tough luck, can't take the class. What if you already don't have a license and were thinking about getting one? I think you'll see a lot fewer licensed motorcyclists. I like you alot BJ, I just don't understand how you can sit here and say "they should be required". You're not the type who likes to push others around. I know plenty who are and want to enforce every control over other people that they can. I guess I just don't follow your train of thought. Besides, you've learned first hand about government interference. Why aren't you getting the Harley you wanted? Because Uncle Sam took half of the money that Jo earned fair and square. Highway robbery.

First of all: I see motorcycling less as a sport and more as a means of transport. I've got a bit of an aversion to thinking about sports on a public road... Secondly, what's wrong with upgrading the test to include what's taught in the MSF course? If the test is a joke then it should be made serious! These are people who will be riding on highways with cars and trucks! Where exactly does individual freedom end and public safety begin? I'm sorry, Jon; I've seen too much madness on the road to agree with you on this one.

I don't disagree about the test. The problem is that the test *does* include everything in the class, but it only takes about an hour. The MSF course takes 16 hours. The problem is that they've got these stupid multiple choice questions. "When coming into a turn you see some sand in the road. You should A-Slam on the rear brake, causing you to slide out and wreck, B-slam on the front brake causing you to go over the top and smack a tree, C-ease off the throttle and maintain a steady rate of travel an lean through the turn." I agree, it should be harder. But I guess we're going to diasagree, Sam (although you SHOULD have a license when you ride--just wanted to make srue my philosophy there was clear). See, I don't think it's my right, as a voter or as a motorcyclist, to tell you how to lead your life, and I don't justify any attempt to control others' lives by saying "it's for your own good". That's a common cry of tyrants (although I *know* that none of you are fascists! ;-)

Your own good, or (as Stacey would say) the good of the driver you fall in front of? Yes, the written test was multiple choice here, too. And I don't know what the motorcycle road test is like here (in the driving test the instructor tried to trick me, but it didn't work!), but I had to take lessons from a private instructor in order to learn to drive for the test, and I took the test no less than six times! Why would riding lessons be a deterrent to people who want to ride? I'm not suggesting anything like the German driving test (God forbid!), but something that will show up the competence (or lack thereof) of the rider!

Jon, ya your point is taken, I guess I just feel like "most people who want to learn to ride, will take the "easy way out" and "not bother" to gain training just becuase it takes a little time and money! The basics are "so important" that unless it's mandantory, many riders may not make it to the "volunteer advanced phase" of motorcycling. Damn, I sure wish they had that kinda training when I learned to ride in the 70's, I almost got myself killed a few times with "minor mistakes" that in real traffic could become fatail errors!! See I learned on a 250cc street bike, went to a 650cc bike then up to the 1000cc+ machines and I "feel" that really helped me become a "surviver", now into my 21st. year of riding a motorcycle and with the ERC course at least every 2-3 years I hope my chances are good to ride till Iam 80! Just can't imagine how a "16-19" year old kid on a new ZX-7 has any real chance of being a "long-term" or life long rider "WITH OUT TRAINING". Your'e gona tell me the "normal" squid kid is gona "VOLUNTEER" for rider training, he/she think they are "indestructable" and are "too young to die"! I guess it's because I love this stuff and hope the future riders will be 'LIFE LONG RIDERS" so the sport can grow but without proper training on how to ride street machines that would have been considered "Superbike Raceworthy" less than 20 years ago, that any 16 year old kid can purchase, the future doesn't look promising, IMHO. BJ

Well, at least they'll be in motorcycling their whole life long, it's just that their whole life won't be long!

Once again, BJ, how many here started with some old bike they bought from a neighbor, riding around little back roads, doing everything "wrong"? I'm sure alot, especially the older riders. Some of that is illegal (as it should be), but again, I think that discouraging others riding because I feel it's not safe is a bad idea. Besides, it's against the law to ride a bike when you're 16 unless you take the class, so that's no argument.

How did you get your start, BJ? I got my start (as noted previously) in the proper "BJ Prescribed Way", with a class, on a slower bike, etc. Most of the older riders I know (and many of the writers of moto mags) got started in a less than "safe" way. One of the best riders I knew was a woman in our class who had been riding for years on the dirt roads around her house out in the country. Again, no license, and it should be illegal to ride without one, but even though she didn't fit the arbitrary defin tion of "safe" (no classes, no license, etc.) she was a better rider than I was.

I'm in the *older* gang, and had my riding licence 'free' with my driving licence, 29 years ago.At that time the only big bike were owned by eeeh *kind of angels...). The "normal" people bikes where under 250cc, and traffic was by very far lighter. I learned (3 years ago)on a 200cc trail bike. But when I took the road, a very important thing I didn't had to deal with was the traffic reading. My 16 years old kid is now driving the car (he took a driving course before), he's riding his dirt bike better than I do, but he'll never hit the road without a riding course, even if it is not request to have his licence. P.S. Each spring I have a refreshing course provide by or local riding club.

Very interesting debate gentlefolks! Jon, I don't think the MSF has to be mandatory--but a legitimate license test should be. You take a class or not, but the test will require you to perform in realistic situations and demonstrate your ability to handle the machine within the legal limits. Many states do this for both bikes and cars. In this respect, training is totally different than helmet laws. Helmets are designed to protect YOU--licenses are designed to keep you from hurting ME or interfering with MY rights to use the road safely! If you can't operate a motorcycle safely within the law, then you don't deserve to be on a PUBLIC roadway--that simple. If you run someone off the road because you can't control your bike, or injure an unsuspecting passenger than you have adversely interfered with another person's rights. No law is perfect--they all require tradeoffs. But turning loose a person on a public roadway without a minimum set of skills is a risk to all of us and the freedom we expect and share on OUR roads. Don't tread on me!

Brad I totaly agree with you.I was unable to write it down clearly you resume exactly what I think.

but a legitimate license test should be. You take a class or not, but the test will require you to perform in realistic situations and demonstrate your ability to handle the machine within the legal limits. Many states do this for both bikes and cars. Hey, I *never* said that you shouldn't have to have a license to ride. I agree, I agree! I also agree that the test is too easy most places.

Jon, I know you didn't say that. But you did say that gov'ts should not require training. What we do agree on then, is that a rider should be qualified to ride to receive a license, by meeting minimum standards. Rider training can be accomplished by whatever means the rider chooses. In DC the "riding test" is literally a figure 8, and one lap around a parking lot! A total joke! The irony is that DC also doesn't accept the MSF certification as proof of rider skills. How about that for encouraging training and responsible driving! In Virginia, successful completion of the MSF course is accepted in lieu of the State road test--a very good idea, IMHO. Yes, I'd like a license and a large fries to go please!

Wow, what a long topic to catch up on. California likewise dispenses with the road test in lieu of taking the MSF course. Brad, you just plain blew me away with the DC law..sounds ass backwards and highly inadaquate. Over 20 years ago I just went out and bought a used Suzuki TS250 enduro. Passed a written test and had six months to go take the riding portion of the test. I think I did alright overall, but wish there had been an MSF course back then. I think everyone who gets an mc license should take the SF beginners course, but agree with Jon that it shouldn't be mandatory. Just make it worth the riders effort to do so. Being able to skip the DMV riding test and a discount on insurance should be a big enough incentive I'd think to take the course. Some are just too damn lazy to do anything about it. Maybe there should be some more incentives to take the course..falling just a bit short of making it manadatory.

Hey ho! Me again! Everyone wearing helmets???? You know it's the law! *cackle* *eagerly anticipating the same cyclical arguement* *evil laugh*

massive groan... Stacey, why did you waste your time (and ours) by writing that? "All the good songs have been sung, What's to be said has been said; You live your life until one day You're dead." The only Sam Blob poetry on the 'Net. (I was trying to make up a song around this, but it didn't work!)

Stacey, not if you live in Colorado, no helmet law here! I wear a helmet"because I damn well want too, end of arguement!!! Jon, yes I learned the "bad way", the MSF courses didn't exist in Colorado in 1976. I bought a used 74 GT250 street bike and walked it "12 blocks" to my apartment. For 3 weeks I practiced at a dirt lot where they were building a Safeway, I took my "test" at the Aurora, CO. police course, we had to do many figure 8's, ride over a 4X4 wood beam, do several low/high speed turns and stopping drills and a tight circle from large to small! I passed it the "first" time, many failed. I still would like to see t e "beginner MSF course "mandantory" for a cycle lics. Your example of a lady is good but VERY RARE, most are kids on new sportbikes that "pass" the local drivers test, because it's a JOKE and when they hit the road, the way they ride shows it! Grumpy old bastard, BJ Ondo

Sounds like Texas is somewhere between what you describe and what Brad describes (I agree with you 100%, Brad). We actually had to ride on the street. A friend showed up with you in a car, and if he didn't have a license you get a ticket for riding without a license, and the officer rides with your friend behind you. They honk once for right, twice for left, and take you on a short course through the town (about 3 miles overall). Pretty easy, but it doesn't have to be. With this kind of test you could get a good idea of the experience/skill of the rider. How he pays attention, how he responsds to other traffic, etc. Instead they pretty much let everyone pass.

The Texas Riders Test is a JOKE!!! My wife was the person piloting the car the testor rode in and when all was said and done she said they were talking so much about fishing he even forgot to send me my "Honk Prompts". I also asked him at the end of the test what kind of bike he rode and his comment was 'You'll never see me on one of them things". Heeeyyyy That's a guy that gives a $#*&, about our "Safety". I also have to comment on MSF courses. There will be a 1980 Honda CR80R under our Christmas Tree this year for my 10 and 8 year olds. They will also receive all the appropriate saftey gear (see credit card invoice hehehe). If they become as addicted as I did at that age, there should be a never ending river of Motorcycles in the Garage... Will I require a MSF course from them?? It will depend on several things like Attitude, Skills, etc when they transition to the street. The thing that bothers me is w at certification does an MSF instructor go through?? I know 2 people who are "Certified" and one can hardly keep the bike upright... NOT where I want to send anyone for lessons. The key to a safe driver is to make damn sure the person walking through the door knows their stuff... The act of waiving a riding test based on an MSF course is absurd!! How many folks here slept through Math, or Reading, or whatever and still passed?? Me says NO to Mandatory MSF.... And I hope no one here wants to say I am not qualified to teach my kids to ride..... I'd compare riding records with anyone....

Ah hah! Perhaps it all comes back to the fact that you have to be responsible for your own safety and there's no "magical combination of words" you can hear to make you into a good rider.

But Shane, you, unlike many others, will see to it that the youngsters follow the legal paperwork at the right time. My gripe is against the chronic outlaws, not the ones "raised right".

I think I have to put in my $.02. Here in B.C. Canada, there are some restrictions on licensing. I got my first bike in 1958 (kind of gives my age away, doesn't it) and there wasn't such a thing as a motorcycle operators license then. Now, when you get your learner's permit you are restricted to riding not over 60 kilometers/hour (40 mph), no night riding, no passengers, no riding on the freeways and to riding with a qualified rider over 18 until you take your "pre-test". This involves demonstrating some iding skills such as a figure 8, rapid acceleration and deceleration, shifting gears up and down etc. When you complete that, you can ride by yourself but all the other restrictions still apply until your final driving test. If you take the test on a bike that is smaller than 250 cc, you have to re-take the driving test to be qualified to ride a bigger bike. the problem is that in the spring a lot of people go out and get a learner's permit and ride all summer for 6 months, then put their bike up for the inter. In the spring the local police will have road checks along the freeways for bikes to make sure you are properly licensed. I usually get stopped 4 to 6 times in the spring. If you don't know a rider, it pretty well means that you have to take instruction from a riding school. The are certified to test you and then all you need to do is go to the DMV to get your licence. I taught both of my sons to ride and they passed first time out ( took their test on a Ninja 600) and neither has had an accident y t in about 7 years. LeRoy Pattison Non Carborundum Illegitimii! (Don't Let The Bastards Grind You Down!) '92 Goldwing SE (210,000+ on the odometer Cacade Classics Bun Burner 1500

Frank, you just hit the nail on the head.... Stricter testing of knowledge and ability is the key here. People who really want to ride rack experience up rather quickly and should not be affected. Do away with situations where MSF courses take the place of the driving tests. Or how about something really novel, like making sure the Tester is someone who has actually straddled a bike a time or two and not someone who was "Ceritfied" via a textbook, and just happens to be the examiner. The very thing yo just praised me for should be the same standard that we hold ALL testors/instructors too. They should all be motorcyclists that have stood the test of time.......

Au contraire, Sam! Twas not a 'waste' of my time. I really get a kick out of you big boys getting so damn touchy over an agreed on, over discussed topic! And, for those of you who were indeed clueless (ie: you have no clue as to my penchant for impish tendencies)... thanks. You made me laugh out loud!

Shane, maybe "YOU" are qualified to teach your kids to ride but I have seen a lot of "lousy riders" who are Dads teach nothing but the "YEARS of bad habits" to their young'ins"!! A "impartial instructor" is best, a father ("NORMALLY"), will be much harder on a child when wanting them to succeed up to "their expectations". I have been riding for "21 years", but that doesn't make me a "GOOD TEACHER". Find a good instructor and tell them you want your kids to learn under "only them", it shows you care!!! Just MHO, and opinon's are like A@#$%)&s, everybody has one. Just looking out for the "future of motorcycling!! Tailwinds, BJ

Shane, gotta part company with ya partner on this one. The MSF is the best thing going as far as rider skills go for those of us without riding dads. The State tests I've taken were far easier, and involved NO classroom training at all. I'm all for strict certification standards for the MSF instructors if there are some bad apples, but based on personal experience and the experience of many, many others, I think the MSF has proved sound in most areas. IMHO, substituting the MSF course is a good idea if the State is unwilling to do a decent job. It gets people in the classroom and on a bike for 3 days of training--not 15 minutes around a parking lot. Until States decide they want to invest in safety, the MSF is the best, and most widel available alternative. You can pass the buck, but you better pass the test!

Brad, I truly do not think you parted company with me on this one. We have basically said the same thing. I do not disagree with MSF training, I agree it may be the best thing going,(I should have been clearer) I even said if my own kids were lacking in skills that I was unable to beat into them (oops there I am too hard on em already hehehe) that I would make them take a course. My comment is strictly that the Best Thing Going leaves A LOT to be desired. The change needs to begin with the people who are giving out the licenses, read that the State. People must be held to a standard in order to have effective control over the streets. I think this standard is often times neglegted in even the best of MSF conditions. The best thing going needs to be put to the test everytime someone graduates, what better way than to take the testing of it's graduates to better levels. The Stat I live in gives a waiver to MSF graduates, however, the agency does not require it's testors to take the course. There is no system of checks and balances. Finally BJ, I understand what you are saying, and to a degree even agree, my father was a terrible teacher (unless it was beer drinking 101) and I do not think that EVERY father should be their sons teachers...... However I think mandatory MSF is a shot in the dark to the bigger problem, piss poor motorcyclists. Just like Defensive Driving is a shot in the dark to piss poor drivers, the only thing Defensive Driving has given these piss poor drivers is 1 "Freebie" of a ticket a year for $25.00. I also ho e you saw the humor in my beating statement.... It truly was meant to be light hearted......

True, Stacey, we've gone on and on with this topic for a while. That doesn't stop me, however, from adding that...... True BJ, but if they're a lousy parent, no amount of government intervention is going to save the kids. And what parent is a "good" parent? My mom was 17 when she had me and made plenty of mistakes, but overall did a good job. That's because the only way to get good at being a parent is to do it--to the misfortune of the children usually, but big deal--it's part of growing up.

I guess I misunderstood you Shane--my mistake. Yes, the states should have serious tests and trained personnel, and the MSF should constantly strive to meet quality standards for certifying both riders and instructors. I just believe that if a state won't do it, then they shouldn't promote a sham--instead they should allow the MSF certification to count. Clearly rider (and driver) training is woefully lacking in many states, and the price is paid with body parts. Just read a story about a middle-aged man who was killed recently when he panicked, locked up his brakes unnecessarily, and high-sided--throwing himself 30 feet and breaking his neck. Several bikers who rushed to the scene saw that the new bike had less than 1,000 miles on the odometer, and it was later revealed that the man (a doctor no less) was a new rider who had no formal training. Unfortunately, that scene is all too common. I've personally pulled a couple of high spirited teens out of the woods after they failed to negotiate turns. Both were relatively new riders on high powered rockets. Some of it is maturity and some of it is skill. Both are needed if you want to survive. Most bikes are far more capable than their riders ever will be

Well, as is the norm here, everyone has made very clear points (hopefully I'm one too). The common denominator is the present lack of training for motorcyclists. In Floyd Cymer's "Motorcycles" book from the 60's there are many pictures of dealers instructing newbies in their own lots, from Honda 150s to Triumphs. What happened? In NYC I've seen helmetless kids fying the opposite way down a 2way onDP bikes on crowded summer days, cops parked watching. I've a neighbor who wheelies out of his drive down the street, a blind incline, went to 2 friends' funerals last summer, etc. Skilled riders are "old men" at 35 now. And if you're 17 with a co-signer, you can still buy that R-1 in January. Doesn't look good to me...

have you ever made a move to increase the amount of riders with formal training? Not that you guys would ever approve of legislation but... if drivers are required to take classes (in all states or no?) couldn't something be extended to motorcyclists? Or at least have training more readily available. Not that I've ever looked but, I've never seen any type of motorcycle ed advertised. Maybe one or several of the manufacturers could work out some programs. Afterall, everyone loves philanthropists and hey, it just might increase sales!

Stacey, what "driver's training" are you talking about? Most new auto driver's are taught by "Dad or Mom" or worse by some other 16 year old friend!! Auto driving training is not "mandantory" by any means here in Colorado. The Motorcycle Safety Foundation beginner rider course is "strictly" volunteer basis. IMHO it should be mandantory but my buddy Jon, is against that due to wanting "less government control", this I can appreciate to a point but riding a "motorcycle" requires "much more" skill than dri ing a "CAGE"!! Shane, yes my friend I know your in jest about the "beatings", I do understand your wanting to "train right". I do agree that the MSF course could be "much more in context and the curiculum tougher. I guess I don't have as much faith as Jon, that "new riders" will make the rational thought" to figure that MSF traing is needed! Just leaving it up to the "whim" of a new rider, doesn't seem to accompish much to gain more skilled riders from the very beginning. Tailwinds, BJ

They're not required to take training unless they get their license under the age of 18. Once you're 18 years old all you have to do is take the test, get it about 70% right, and you're on the road. True, most kids take driver's ed from school and are on the road at 16. But that's a good point, because even with all that training (I spent hours in my class) most are crummy drivers anyway. Tells me that training doesn't do much good and thus the only way to safety is to outlaw all dangerous activities completely. Make everyone take a bus. True, it does require more skill, but you know the best way to become a good motorcycle rider and a better driver? To get out and ride. This sport has too few participators as it is, we don't need to worsen that problem.

Jon, there we disagree totally, "just getting out and riding does not always make a "better rider"! Experiance can and is a "very deadly teacher" my friend. To be honest I don't think my wife Jo would have survived your method of " learning to ride", the MSF course gave her the "minimum skills" for her to be at least "semi-comfortable" and get out on the road. I tried to teach her but after 20 years of riding, there are things I took for granted she should have understood. Example: she kept lanching the ike toward cars in the parking lot, I couldn't figure it out. After the first day in MSF training, she came home and stated:"gee, I never realized the THROTTLE grip went back and forward!!!!! Sending her out on the road without minumum training would have resulted in a disaster for sure. In Colorado Jon, School's "no longer have drivers ed", you must pay "big bucks" for a private driving school or be taught by parent's or friends. That's why Teenager's have the highest death rate per vechical in the state of Colorado. I was lucky as back in the 70's it was offered as an elective class, but not in the 90's. I guess my friend we will never agree on this topic but it's fun beating it to death anyway. Tailwinds,BJ

But that's a good point, because even with all that training (I spent hours in my class) most are crummy drivers anyway. Tells me that training doesn't do much good and thus the only way to safety is to outlaw all dangerous activities completely. Make everyone take a bus. Jon, I know you're not suggesting that training is useless. People who want to learn will, and those that don't--no license! I'm not saying that we should force less than perfect riders or drivers to take the bus. The idea is to have a realistic minimum standard for skills. And that means some education and some practice until you can demonstrate competence. True, it does require more skill, but you know the best way to become a good motorcycle rider and a better driver? To get out and ride. Well, that's certainly the best way to perfect your skills. But frankly, I don't want untrained pukes next to me on the highway! There is a minimum level of skill you must have BEFORE you enter the public roadway. That's why the MSF is conducted in big parking lots. Perhaps MSF rider training should be expanded to include some basic road work after passing the beginner skills test. Unfortunately, there are a lot of clueless, licensed riders and drivers on the road today without even minimum MSF skills. These people pose a danger to YOU and ME. Ever done a group ride that included a couple of unskilled riders? I have, and it's scary as hell. This sport has too few participators as it is, we don't need to worsen that problem. I agree. Let's make sure that folks that enter the sport stay alive long enough to enjoy it and contribute. The quickest way to damage the long run viability of the sport is to sanction the demise of untrained and unskilled participants. MSF--Maturity + Skill = Fun!

I gotta lean to Brad & BJ Jon...no one's got the slant to "outlaw all dangerous activities" in the established participating group (motorcyclists). That's where I think it should originate from, the idea of increased skill-training. From the cyclists, dealers, and ultimately the manufacturers(whose small-print disclaimers are a shame). I'm not saying " the government should pass a law blahblah..". I'm saying the dealers *at least* should make an effort to corral the young guns before they get killed witho t knowing why. I feel if i'm always bending someone's ear about how great it is to ride and they bite, it's my responsibilty to do my best to get 'em at least to a MSF group first, then show 'em why Ducati's a superbike.

What would Jerry Springer do with us? (o;{

Allright boys. Seems to me you're merely complaining and not offering any suggestions. BJ, what would be YOUR suggestion? Shane? Jon? And unfortunately, by the time I get back online this may be one big spam fest... but I'd really be interested in what you think might help the situation. Excuse me for possibly treating you like several of my students but they tend to do the same thing -- present problems and discount any solutions presented. I encourage them to come up with workable plans... as I now encourage you.

Stacey, you need to re-read this thread. It's chaulk-full of suggestions, from increased licensing requirements, to mandatory MSF training. The question isn't finding proposed solutions--it's agreeing on which one(s) are best! And even the best laid plans require political leadership. This country doesn't have much of that, which is why our reps. spend their time instituting no cost and politically expediant helmet regulations instead of focusing money and people on useful rider education and training ;-) Pick a card, any card!

political leadership? Why Brad, I didn't not know you also appreciated a good oxymoron. And yes, it is full of suggestions. As a non-rider that is all I feel intelligent enough to add. And you cannot agree on which solution is best until you propose a few and get some modifications going. So I will ask again... do you have any?

The idea that I am trying to get through to ya'll is very simple.... If the Testing requirements were tougher the "New" or "Crappy" rider would be placed in a position to HAVE to seek out the help of MSF or a more experienced rider in order to pass the test. There would be no "Common Sense" to it. When I had to take Statistics in College I employed a tutor BEFORE I got into trouble. I had seen the class, knew I couldn't take it for granted and was forced to spend some extra time and effort to get the l ttle piece of paper that is now tucked away in a closet somewhere, here I am years later and if I had to do statistics again guess where my butt would be?? (Hellllloooo, Show me what the hell is going on!! hehehe) The same would hold true for ANY rider. If some non-chalant jack-ass walks into the DMV and fails his test because he has to know more than 75% of a motorcycles braking power comes from the front brake, he would be more inclined to seek out MSF. The decision should be "How bad do I want to ride" and not "Do I want to take a course or not". The current testing allows for literally ANYONE to get a license, regardless of skill level (same for cars) I have been riding a long damn time and would want to do what I had to do to maintain that status, or find another hobby like fishing, for which I KNOW I can get a license for...

Oh, and just to help you sort out the changes there Stacey, My proposal between all the windiness there is: Tougher testing by the state that is more in line with day to day operation of motorcycles. This test should be administered by people who actually RIDE motorcycles. Potiential licensee's should have an option of going to a class where they can recieve instruction on passing the test, (MSF). Pretty simple really...

And yes, it is full of suggestions. And you cannot agree on which solution is best until you propose a few and get some modifications going. I think Stacey just wants to see a good fight! hehe OK, here's a modification--I agree with Shane, except I don't think many state legislatures and DMVs will step up to the tough licensing plate. Why? They have no political will to take on the folks in the line at DMV who don't want tough standards! I can just hear those people who get rejected screaming about fairness, personal freedom, and overzealous, government regulation (Jon correct me if I'm wrong here! hehe). IMHO, until a State commits to tough testing, they might as well provide a small incentive for rider skill training by allowing the MSF to count towards fulfilling their licensing requirements. Something is better than nothing. Can you ride? Yes. Ok, go to isle 3 please.

What I get outa all this IHMO, is (like Brad) to require tougher state administered tests. You can, in lieu of taking the state riding test..take the MSF course (but I don't think you'll see the MSF course mandated..though it's not an unreasonable idea). And I think Brad is right in that getting states to do this is like trying to pull teeth from a gorilla who isn't sedated. Do any states allow you to get a mc license w/o taking the riding portion of the test?

Kevin, I like the analogy! Shane and Brad THANK YOU! for the easy-to-understand suggestions. Now, for the layman, has anyone ever attempted to push these toward that pie-in-the-sky political realm? (Don't snicker if the obvious answer is yes, I am an admitted NON-rider curious, that's all) As antiquated as it may seem... somebody's gotta start the ball rolling. And, I'm not flaking out on ya'll, but I'll be outta virtual touch for a bit (no access at home and 2 weeks o' vacation starts today!). After you breathe your collective sighs, someone snag me by email and give me the answers that arise... stacey@www.spring.com. I am truly interested in seeing something done about this and, if it's going nowhere fast, my jumping on the bandwagon certainly couldn't hurt! (Hmmm... well, we can all think about that one!) Smiles and happy holidays! Stay safe whether or not you chose to ride with a helmet!

I wonder if Stacey's related to JSun...

To my way of thinking, there is not enough regulation for either new riders obtaining a license or dealers who sell new riders a ride that is beyond their capability to handle. On more than one occassion, I have had to pack up the personal effects of one of my young sailors who managed to take their brand new shiny toy up to the top end and kill themselves, before they took the mandatory safety course required for military motorcyclists to take before they can ride on base (there is a backlog and 30 ay "grace" period...a young guy coming back from a deployment can take his money in, buy a super wham-dyne bike, and head for Texas, or Arkansas...wherever he/she calls home without the benefit of any training). It is easy for all to sit back and be very cavalier in attitudes and talk about how we are overregulated; I will tell you this, it hurts when you are the one trying to talk to a father or mother when they are in tears asking you why their youngster died. At that point, there isn't enough regulati n...to prevent that one death, those "freedoms" you talk about, I would gladly give up. That part of my life is behind me, but I remember those instances in lots of detail. I am in favor of mandatory safety courses, and some sort of conditional licenses such as SheBee talked about, and dealer controls. My two bits worth. Ed

Test

Damn! I had a great response and got an "Internal Server Error" and it's gone. Anyway, I never said that "just going out and riding is the best way to do it", but that many motorcyclists probably wouldn't be riding today if there were a bunch of severe regs. You can say "yeah, but we don't need 'em", but we'd be without Peter Egan, and Jimmy and Buster (the retired guys who I used to hang out with who helped get me started in riding) and many of us here. As for the "if it saves one life it's worth it" argument, you can't follow this logic. This is basically carte-blanca to hand over your rights. Banning rock climbing and snow boarding and bungie jumping would save lives. Banning fatty foods and implementing a government mandated tofu diet would save thousands. Lowering the speed limit to 30 nationwide would save thousands. Why don't we do this? Because it would make life not worth living. Life is dangerous and there are no guarantees. You may live a long life doing dangerous things (those old guys I mentioned earlier did all kinds of crazy things and will probably live to be 90) or get killed at an early age. The point is that life is worth living because we DO have our freedoms, unlike some places in the world. And NO ONE has to preach to me about suffering. About 6 years ago my cousin was in a severe motorcycle wreck that left him paralyzed on the left side of his body and has screwed up his life. He had never been on a bike before and didn't have a license! Did the laws do him any good? Would stricter laws help? The answer on both counts is "no". And there's a huge part of this regulatory plan that is being ignored--who's going to fund it? Either you'll have to drastically increase the cost of the class (already it's about $100 and already partially government funded) to fund the newer, larger beauracracy (no government program works without one--it's naive to say "it won't happen this time") or pay for it with tax dollars. And guess what the first area to be cut by the non riding legislature is going to be? See, you can't hand over your rights to a government system that has no interest in protecting you as a group. They'll write you off and sell you down the river in an instant.

Jon, ya know MRF is looking for a Colorado State Representive as we speak, you sound perfect for the job my friend!! So you don't think that if you cousin had "taken training" before he rode, it "wouldn't have helped"? Still sounds like your saying to hell with any regulation, let me ride and if I kill myself, it's "my right"!! Humm It seems there is no "REAL ANSWER", between "FREEDOM" and "SAFETY". So the only thing I can see is to make MSF training function by "PUBLIC FUNDS" (ie: Donations or set fees), with no government backing and "strictly voluntary" in nature. This way the squids will just kill themselves off early in life and not be a problem we have to deal with! Seem's a little "EYE FOR AN EYE, TOOTH FOR A TOOTH" old testament kinda logic to me. It's just an opinion weither it's right or wrong is strictly a judgement call at best. Tailwinds, BJ

MRF? Whuzzat? Sure, it would have helped, but he never would have taken it. He was at a party and decided to hop on someone else's bike and take it for a spin. He had no desire before then to ride a bike. Public Funds will never happen. The non-riding politicians don't know or care. We're very naive if we actually think that in these cash strapped days the government is going to spend money on us. Eye for an eye? Eye for an eye means "if you hurt me, I'll hurt you", what does that have to do with anything? No, that line of thinking is more Darwin than Old Testament. But the bottom line (as always) is that freedom means being allowed to make decisions, whether or not BJ or the government or whomever thinks it's safe. I understand where you're coming from, but to me libery and freedom are what makes life worth living. I personally took the class before I got the license, but I don't see how it's my right to force someone else to do the same.

I think what Jon meant by his cousin is, he'd have been riding that bike w/o a license no matter what regulations were in place (ending in the same result)..it just wouldn't have helped in this case and many others like it.

Ok, I get the jest Jon. Still looks like a "no win" situation in my book. MRF= Motorcycle Riders foundation, the MRO that's has a true "lobbists" in Washington, DC. and is the "source" that ABATE seem's to work thru at the capital level. I guess your right Jon, freedom usually has a "dear price" to pay for it's usage, didn't realize I was "putting on the thumb screws" buy wishing for a "mandantory MSF" training. Just wonder if it possible to really be "that free" in a modern society, doesn't seem really probable as our lives are all ready "severly governed" in most daily aspects. I guess adding one more didn't seem a "real loss", you've open my eyes a little. Tailwinds, BJ

RESPOSIBILITY, not regulations and classes, is what's most important! Handing a loaded gun to someone who's never shot, interested or not, is irresponsible. Handing a key to a motorcycle or car to someone who's never "done it" is the same. This is my gripe against dealers and sellers in general, and IMO wjere the problem starts. I remember a guy who talked truly perfectly about how he'd ridden dirt for years wanted a shot on my Laverda, a mature guy in most respects. I refused, he proceeded to take the key to my buddy's Duc 750GT, got about 50 yards and dumped on the right side, damage to bike & person. Red-faced confession: He had *never* been on a 2 wheeler in his life. C'mon!

Gee, the "real man theroy" at work, ha ha. It amazes me that it's so "looked down on" to just admit, "I ain't got a clue"! I agree with you Frank, I got to know a person real good before I would let them ride my one and only bike. Right now there is only one other person I'd "truely" trust riding my bike. We've been best friends and riding buds for over 15 years. Had a bud with a "brand new" ZX11, he let a supposed friend with years of experiance ride it and within 3 blocks he lost it hit a car and fliped the bike, it was totaled!! Guy had ridden small dirtbikes for a year or so on the family farm, beware!

Oops, that was a brand new ZX10! BJ

Again, there is already a law against riding without a license, and it's unlikely that you could pass even the stupid tests they have today without some experience, so I'm not going to defend a concept I never advocated. I agree, Frank. Personal responsibility is a foreign concept these days as many expect the government, their parents, (someone else) to make their decisions for them. It's up to you to make responsible decisions, as it should be. Anyway, I'm not going to argue this anymore.

I let a friend of mine who had his license, had taken the MSF class, and had been riding for years ride my Ninja the day I bought it. Had a wreck within one block.

I've only let a couple of people ride my RS. Being such a big bike (wants to swing wide in the corners) you have to be real careful..just as careful as loaning out a sport bike that you know is beyond the capabilities of most riders. In each instance with my two best friends here locally and my good buddy Jon here, I let them ride it on an open country road where I was behind them (not that Jon needed looking after..hehe). It was just as strange an experience for me on Jon's Ninja as it probably was for J n on my RS. So you should not only be real careful with who rides your bike, but make sure that you know their capabilities. I knew Jon had owned a Gold Wing, so the big bike wasn't going to be his first experience. Besides..he has such a trusting face..LOL.

Hee. LOL. Yeah, but my new policy is NEVER loan a bike out to someone. There's too much risk. 'cept maybe to Kevin, he seems like such a nice guy...... :-)

Well, I enjoyed the RS, but it's not my style of riding. Going from the Ninja to the 'Star on that tight little mountain road, well, it was downright frustrating. :-)

Yeah, I understand Jon. I've had several of my younger brothers friends plead with me to take the RS for a ride and I just smile at em. I also understand how switching to the RS from your Ninja could be frustrating..you're so used to being able to lean into a corner and have the bike do exactly what you want. At that point you're fighting the RS..not comfortable to say the least. It was fun though. ;-)

The person who taught me to ride said that I was the only person he'd trust with his bike (He even said that after I dropped it...), but that was several months ago when I was still in practice. He also warned me that when I got the bike fixed (still hasn't happened, maybe over the Christmas holiday...) I was NOT to lend my bike to ANYONE!!!

Any time I've been given the key to another guys bike it's someone I know and have ridden with for quite a while, and I'm a stickler with my keys myself. When my friend (whom I taught) offered me the Road King key i refused like 4 times because I just don't feel comfortable on huge bikes (plus I don't have 20G's!). After I sat behind him a few times I "broke down" and rode it (o; but I felt i was breaking a personal rule..maybe old fashioned, I dunno. I had a mechanic offer me his Darmah once after I got tuck in the city, but he had the Laverda as collateral!

"You wanna ride MY bike??" "Can I see your License, Insurance Cert, Birth Cert, Credit Card, Marridge License, Mortgage papers, Alien Registration Card, Credit Rating Report, Soc Sec Card, Student ID card, Work ID, DD214, Certified Driving Record, Gun Registration forms, high school year book picture, and finally IRS form 1040 (a) with the raised seal of certification, ?" "Don't have all that on ya? See me when you do" hehehe I will generally let people I know and trust take the bike for a spin if they want, with the understanding that if "You wreck it, I hope you enjoyed the ride, cause you and me are going bike shopping" "Ohhhh, I'll take the Road King AND one of them Triples!!!"

I like your choices Shane! ;-) Have a cool Yule!

Have to add my $.02. Letting someone else use your motorcycle (even for a short ride) is risky at best. I believe Shane's advice to be sound. Earlier this year, a long time friend of mine took one of my bikes for a test ride as a prelude to buying the bike. He has been riding bikes for over 10 years. He dumped my 83 Seca Turbo (which is nearly impossible to find parts for) and then had the audacity to tell me it fell over on the kickstand. The paint was scraped up and one of the turn signal lenses br ke. Said he would pay for the damage but checked out the "excuse book" instead. Needless to say, we are now ex-friends. It turns out the guy is a real deadbeat. Know anyone that wants to buy a scraped up Seca Turbo? By the way, the police chief in our town told me I was responsible for the damages and that if the individual would have been hurt--he could have sued me/my insurance company big time. Hoop

I agree Hoop (is that a first? --grin--). I've loaned my bike out and been burned THREE times. I'm nothing if not stupid. My brother wrecked my low miles, never wrecked, looked like new '83 Nighthawk. But now that I think about it, he wasn't supposed to be on the bike. He replaced almost everything, but I couldn't bring myself to ask him to cough up the bucks for the exhaust. Man, that exhaust was primo without a bit of rust or road rash. Damn.

I almost never let anyone ride my 'Wing. My son, who has a Ninja 1100 has ridden mine(he gets tired bum after a while and so we'll trade bikes ) the only other person who has ever ridden my bike is Kathryn (Kasey) and she rides it because that lady knows how to ride! If I don't let others ride and they figure they can't be my friend, thats OK with me because I still have the bike. If they ride it and wreck the bike, I don't have the bike or a friend. Leroy Pattison Non Carborundum Illegitimii! (Don't Let The Bastards Grind You Down!) '92 Goldwing SE (teal) 211,000+ on the odometer Cascade Classic Bun Burner 1500