Meaning...

Amusement before the final curtain. Is there, or should there be, any other meaning?

If by some small and tiny chance, the only reason we are here is to experience that which is in front of us. Then purpose/meaning etc.,all loose their edge. I have always noticed that each dream comes complete with everything it needs for my benefit. Perhaps the waking dream is no different. In searching for hidden meaning, we may be missing the obvious.

So here we are making meaning by just living. I sometimes think that Victor Frankle was right when that we can choose to make our meaning as will. For example the meaning of my life may just be being on the internet and talking with you here.

And maybe that should be, "So here we are making meaning by choosing how we live." And I don't think that is the entire meaning of your life, Americ, but I do believe the statement is very definitive of/for you.

"So here we are making meaning by choosing how we live." Living each moment, each meaning, each experience, one by one, one dream at a time. Just like sleeping dreams; One at a time, none of them necessarily connected, each complete with everything it needs for resolution.

Yep, cyber-kid is just one of the meanings of my life. Children. Relatives, relationships, playing music, relationships, etc. Lots of things competing for attention. All seem to be part of it. But I think that we are not really grabbing this meaning thing hard enough. Sometimes you have it all, and still life can feel meaningless. We seek a deeper meaning than just the stuff and dreams of this life.

But, if it was outside of this life, wouldn't it be beyond our ability to comprehend, thus comment on?

"outside of this life" yes i don't think we can grasp "outside of this life" and have any need for "meaning" "meaning" and "this life" must be connected i think

Americ says; Sometimes you have it all, and still life can feel meaningless. We seek a deeper meaning than just the stuff and dreams of this life. When you have it all, and life is meaningless, perhaps your at that point where you need to 'dump' it all and start anew. Ooooohhhh but the ego holds on soooo tenaciously to its hard won 'assets'. Maybe you shouldn't let go Americ. Maybe you should haul all that meaningless garbage around with you. Course... If you could let go, maybe you'd be able to see your next adventure. Something deeper? Naahhh

i hold on i let go i hold on i let go every breath itself seems like this ultimate pattern which you call our attention to -- steven thank you

Perhaps, when 'stuff', becomes meaningless, it's an invitation by the "greater self" to let go again, because a new adventure is possible. Is this what Christ meant when he said, "Give up your worldly goods and walk with me"? It seems like the more 'stuff' I let go of, the more fun I have.

Yes, the letting go can actually become a deep pleasure -- a going to a new kind of Self.

And the more "baggage" I give up, the more fun I have!

hmmm...often seems, though, that the more fun I have, the more baggage I acquire...

or am I having the wrong kind of fun?

I don't know nick... sounds like you're having LOTS of fun!! a legitimate question though. yes, what some people term 'fun' might be detrimental to their well being in the end.

No... Does it matter? For once it's over, isn't it no longer reality? *smile*

guess it's sort of like some fun just LASTS longer than other types...

Ahhh, yes, it's over. But the impact remains.

certainly does... (they do, i'm told, eventually graduate from college, though)

Ha!

So in the end we are all dead, but between now and death we have a lot of adventures to go through.

Hopefully...

I like that Americ, it appears to my slightly sick sense of reality.

I used to go to graveyards to meditate. To be reminded about the ultimate fact. Thus to live more fully this present moment.

i don't know... that could be, like st. hubbins said, a "little too much (frigging) perspective", americ...

not in the dark, Americ? The only cemetary I was glad to visit was one in Germany. Very beautiful and peaceful. It was more like a garden of real blooms rather than those K-Mart plastic specials.

well, germans have more cemetary practice than we do...

hey what was that?

what was what? (yeah, i'm in trouble alright)

am gonna let that one slide, this time..........

let what slide? (mein fuehrer?)

Ah, sprechen Sie Duetsche?

omigod... (it is unloosed)

(whatever)

cool. (shall i report to my detention center?)

(why, you into crime and punishment?)

crime can be fun... (beginning to understand the significance of the straps)

(oh boy-i had to ask)

what does this mean? (hmmm...what does this mean?)

just what are you trying to accomplish? let's go back to the "talk" room... and STAY there!

why, certainly... (shall i click my heels, too?)

(smart aleck)

Lo siento, Wolf, pero yo no hablo alemanes... And, Americ, I love to walk through cementaries at sunrise, especially ones where I "know the people." It is very calming and relaxing, and something else that I haven't done in awhile.

Not until fairly recently could I even calmly walk into a cemetery. Seems until I reconciled a few things concerning death (of loved ones & strangers) the stimulus was just too much -- unsavory and uncomfortable.

a friend of mine who first suggested cemeteries to me pointed out that it is a great place to hang out and feel any sad feelings. you know that if you cry there, nobody is going to think your odd. crying for your personal life there is just as good as crying for the loss of a friend. and there is comfort in knowing that my own personal stuff will pass away. boy! extreme stuff. but it happens.

I agree but usually when I walk into a cemetery, sadness is one of the emotions furthest from my mind. I am curious. I am thoughtful. But most of all I am centered.

We should go on a picnic at one sometime, stacey.

I must say, I've never gone with anyone and had a conversation. But, after a bit of consideration, I do not think I'm averse to the idea.

What an eloquent yes...

I am glad you were able to take it as it was intended. *smile*

HELLO, Cemetary Club! What is all THIS talk?! I mean, what does a cemetary do for all you guys that a fridge doesn't do for me?! No, I suppose the reason why I don't need to visit the dead in order to cope with my life, is because I'm a happily incurable insomniac. I have all the time in the world to think deep thoughts, deal with sorrows and all that. I just love the quietness of the night; it is Daytime I can't always cope with so well. Too light, too noisy, too hectic, too impersonal.

thus, the cemetery...silent and peaceful and full of nothing but reflections

And people having picnics . . . thus too crowded for my taste.

perhaps you would like to join us... crowds rarely seem overwhelming when you are a contributing member!

HA-HA! That's a good one. Yes, for an hour or so of pleasant social discourse I could easily seek a picnic with you guys in a graveyard - as long as we can drink wine, eat strawberries with cream and smoke long cigars. But not to think deep thoughts - I'd probably burst out laughing at the drama of it. I find graveyards as ordinary as my back yard in that sense.

so, what you're saying is, everyone's invited over for a picnic in your backyard?

Sure. As long as you bring the strawberries and cigars - I'll provide the wine. Seems I have lured you away from that depressing place and thoughts of death . . . we're making progress. What'll it take to get a smile out of you, oh black soul?

a lick or two in the right places, I suppose!

always works for me.

I Dick or two in the right places works even better for me! Could not resist . . .

not to worry Riette... we all lack typical amounts of self-control and moral obligation!

ha-ha!! So true. So, have you found the meaning yet, Stacey? Frankly, I'm not sure what to look for. Or does this have something to do with the universe and all that again - in which case I'll just shut up and sit in the corner.

don't sit in the corner, we have a perfectly good couch...

Do we? Does it bounce?

depends who all is on it...

"If life had 'meaning' it would drive me crazy." --Mike Bryan

I agree. So what the hell are we talking about here? Why the UNmeaning of life is so pointFUL?

We really need to get over it.

Hmm. But why? Is that not what makes life so much fun? If there were a point to it, a meaning, then we would all know exactly what to do and where to go, and precisely what life had in store for us. Would if even be worth living with the sort of burden it would put on us? No, to search for the answers, to search for the purpose to it all is what makes us human - vulnerable, humble, THINKING creatures.

insert existentialism here.

All ears . . . Feel free to continue, Stacey.

Something with creating one's own values, living by them, living each moment to the full?

Something to do with, that is. Damn!

existentialism actually tends toward the "life in itself is meaningless beyond the meaning we 'inject' into it."

Right. So there IS meaning after all. Only it kind of resembles Pamela Anderson's bosoms as far as the reality of it is concerned . . . And THAT's why she symbolizes the true meaning to so many male persons . . . Think I'm going to go commit suicide now.

And just because meaning is meaningless doesn't mean life is meaningless. For example, to see a tree may be something that we can't experience as meaningful because it's just seeing. It's seeing, it's not meaning anything. But that's meaningful. To say what that means, though, is ultimately meaningless, because it's not the seeing: because the [to say] is just a bunch of meaning-making. Why is meaning meaningless? Because it's somehow irrelevant to the realness of living life. In fact, it gets in the way, if living life is being in direct contact, like truly seeing. I have no idea what I just said. And I hope y'all don't either.....it means nothing. A vagrant just stole my mind. Won't give it back. He walked off and is entering a bullfight with a box kite....the sight of him is getting more and more pointtillist and elongated, the further he moves off from me.

Don't recall having seen you here before, Le Pleppa Plep . . . Are you new here, or haven't you been for a long time? Whatever the case, the things you say seem to make more sense than your name! Mine is Riette - yeah, I know! And I didn't even make it up! Hope you stay.

Newbie. I'll stay....less I get into one'a those kiddy cars tomorrow. I sorta shy, in some ways....in some ways that sorta crest over and around the protocols. Fer that I would like to say I'm sorry in advance. Don't hardly mean no harm by it. Jest is me is all...tiz the way I am. Born wrong, fell on m'noggin real real early or somethin'.

Wait a second . . . where are you from?? You're not in America, are you? Are you English or Scoattish or Oi-rish? From your response I shall place my bet on . . . say, north of England, or even Northumberland? Turn the accent on a little sharper, so I can hear better. Or have I got it all wrong? Well, nevermind. So what is the meaning in your life? Besides looking at trees, that is.

Gotta admit, and I tremble as I say this, there stands a fine tall tree just 15 feet outside my tiny hovel's one and only door (which is like bathroom door-size). The doggone hovel lies promiscuously in Austin.....and I think Austin lies alot, and when it does, if I not mistaken, it lies somewhere in Texass. Meaning can be pretty mean to me sometimes. I try to calm it down some, so it can relax into a warm lone silhouette of a quiet lender of the soothing and tender. Yeah, it's emotion that keeps drawing me in. The emotion in reaction. That part of life, or my life, is what has me wondering the most, I think. Meaning what, I wonder? Wonder, think, emote.....got caught in my throat. Wanted to come to the surface and barely float in this silly post I just wrote. Sorry.

Sorry to interrupt and all, but if I had to put the meaning of life into my own words, it would be: To accept and fulfill, to the best of your ability, your responsibilities. That's it. No more, no less.

And with that he reminds everyone that they really have nothing to live for . . . Bloody hell, you get more depressing by the day! That's not meaning, that's P.T. - physical torture. How can there be any joy in meaning if it is only about fulfilling abilities and responsibilities and all that? I see those two things as important, certainly, my duty to myself, but not the ultimate Meaning of my life. (Far too irresponsible, I suspect.) To have only my few talents and alot of responsibilities to live for, would make me the most depressed person in the world, I think. The meaning lies in pain, but also in the pleasure. The pain helps us appreciate the pleasure, and the pleasure makes it all worth while. One must just go ahead and TAKE the pleasure out of life. One of the things that help me get up on a morning, is the hope that my day will bring not only rushing around and irritation, but amusement and fun while doing the things I have to do. Yeah, I know, it sounds a little like I'm hitting you over the head with a 'Get Well Soon' card! Ha-ha! But are you always this black mooded? You sound so afraid of happiness, somehow. Why?

not afraid of happiness... afraid of wanting happiness, of desiring what you want to deserve... and being let down. For some it is easier to lessen the expectations than bolster the spirit. and a lot less painful. Leplep... I'm glad you're here. You make me laugh and (inconsistently of course) make me think.

Riette, you said, "One of the things that help me get up on a morning, is the hope that my day will bring not only rushing around and irritation, but amusement and fun while doing the things I have to do." Right, taking care of your responsibilities. The manner in which you choose to do so, I did not address as that is a matter of personal choice and irrelevant to the basic statement that I made. Nothing in the statement I made is depressing, you added that sentiment to it when you over layed your world view onto what I said. All I did was reduce my personal meaning of life to its most basic feature, and stated it in my words, as you have asked me to do. Your response is why I sometimes choose to either be silent at times or depends upon another's words. When I state what I feel, I am usually told that I am wrong, or that I need to seek counseling because I am too depressed, or that I need to do this or that to become more than I am because it is apparently impossible for me to be accepted by anyone for who I am. If I am not me, then a) who the hell am I? and b) who the hell am I supposed to be so that I am me? So, as you can see, after awhile all of this gets to be very tiring and disheartening, so once again and with a different set of people, I allow only parts of me to surface and am never completely myself. as to being afraid of happiness and/or of wanting happiness, I am neither. Happiness is not my natural low energy state, and most times I do not have the extra energy for that particular self-delusion. This does not mean that I am necessarily unhappy, however, as one can be content (sometimes judged (and sometimes rightly so) as being complacent) without the extreme of happiness

I'm glad you're here Stacey. I almost can't believe you are. This is blushingly embarrassing to say (please don't read this part) but you had become the heart of what Spring.net came to mean to me. I really shouldn't have said that. The real heart of spring is probably Terry Paul: his spirit certainly has incredible generosity and energy and vision, initiative. I know I know I know: the real heart of spring is everyone who partakes. But I like how you compose yourself, Stacey, and how you bring reliable balance that touches, and hugely topnotch pinpoint humor. You steadied me (and I'd only been a reader of so many of those posts you contributed since you came on, as I've read back over them). And Wer, you've got such a powerful ingenuity....your wherewithal is enormous.... I mean I am staggered by it and by the knockout strength of your humor....[and, yeah, I know, you can make a lotta fun outa the word 'wherewithal' here]. I relish that repartee that goes on with y'all and Wolf and Autumn, in other topics. Nick I definitely like to pay close attention to. Paula's poetry goes way way way into me. Spring.com is a rave. So many other people here make it great. Fun to see what was going on in 1994. Man! By the way, I was liking to think that Wer could, not that he would, feel that a responsibility he has is to die to everything every day so he can see things as they are without distortion, thereby making contact with life where it is, beyond meaning, and where it is the source of all meaning, all everything, all creation, all love. Don't y'all think Wer is all love? I went to church last sunday....and, uh, church was at the bottom of the Colorado River, and who but who did I see down there along the river bottom, no less, and leading the congregation, at that!!??? WER! He was like blowing bubbles, I think, and each bubble had the word 'love' just whooshing around inside it. I guess love makes the bubble go 'round, I thought as I came up from the deep (almost drowned). I mean Wer wasn't explicit at all about what he felt his responsibilities actually are, so I thought I'd take a crack at it. One never know, do one? 'Course anyone should know better than to go speakin' for Wer. Wonder if I'll be allowed to live another day......

I did #86 before reading wer's #85. It's refreshing to hear you elaborate on what you mean, Wer. It's also refreshing to hear you react to what you react to, Riette, Stacey. Interesting how each post made sense on its own terms, quite a bit of sense. Now we intuit this little bit more: of how feelings are affected in ways we hadn't intended, and what those expressed feelings (anyone of ours) tell of what's going on in our inner worlds. It's good. Learning. I respect each of you much more than a whole lot. I respect how this here post of mine can strike any of you as too assuaging, too pacifying....to the detriment of truth and meaning....your meanings. My goof, then.

WER, I am really sorry if that is the way I make you feel. I think that perhaps we just touch a wrong nerve with each other, and for that I apologize. But I do respect you a hell of a lot. Just thought I'd say it. The reason why you touch a wrong nerve with me, I think, is because you are so unbearably realistic - it depresses me, and therefore I probably project it onto you. And then I say the wrong things that touch a wrong nerve in you again, because you can probably not bear my senseless prattling either, and so on. Perhaps we should stop that from happening by using some sort of a stopper. If I don't like something you have said, I shall simply write CORK Just that. No need for elaboration, or animosity. And you can write BUGGER OFF or something like that, and perhaps we'll get on better. I don't just respond ne- gatively to you though, do I? We do have a bit of fun in one of the other conferences too . . .

so be it then, truce... (and, yes, we do...)

back to the happiness... Anyone read "Johnny Got His Gun"? when I do give up and reach for happiness, whose version should I strive for? this is where the selfishness topic came from everytime that I have gone for my version, the resulting pain of those involved, either directly or indirectly, has far outweighed any momentary bliss that I might have received in my moment of selfishness...and yet, when I am not selfish and give in to another's wants, similar pain is the end result also...so, again, am I afraid? no, it just seems a waste of energy to me to force oneself (good or bad) to the extreme of happiness and as for the pain, a good dose of physical pain applied correctly in the right mood is quite an effective stimulant and/or mood stabilizer, but the anguish of emotional pain is as draining an extreme as utopian happiness...there, you have the basis for my black soul and the moods to go with it, although those are also based on dietary imbalances as well

Don't you think that you perhaps expect a bit too much, when you let yourself in for happiness? And that therefore you always get dissappointed? You mustn't try to rationalize it so much. Don't go for one version or the other - go for grey. Expect both happiness and sorrow, don't give in completely, but be willing to bend a little, don't let your fear of getting hurt suppress the good things about you. Just say things as they are right from the beginning. If you're afraid, then say so, because often fear can come across as agression and apprehension, and the other person will never even know that you were merely feeling vulnerable. I mean, one can't always just 'pick up' everything about another person, can one? If you say from the beginning, look, this and this are the things I'm afraid of, and these are the things that make me feel insecure, the other person will either accept it, or drop you there and then - before too much harm is done. And you musn't FORCE yourself to anything! If I thought for one moment that a person was with me, because he forced himself to be with me, I'd tell him to . . . reciprocate himself in hell! Here on the spring you come across as someone with an extremely ironic twist of mind, yet also someone with a certain amount of insight, feministic tendencies, but also as a sensitive sort of person. Which of those sides do you allow to reveal themselves when you really care for someone?

I do that, Riette, and the other person doesn't believe me. What then? They get upset because they don't understand how anyone can be/think that way, and get mad at me because I reacted the way I told them that I would. Then I go off because I told them what to expect, and they chose to believe what they wanted to anyway. I am then called childish for my behavior, and I often wonder if self awareness is but a crutch to use to avoid evolving... sorrow is a given, happiness isn't I show all sides, but from the outside I probably have a tendency to dwell on the why can't this be a compromise, why am I the one who has to change part of my insecurities and tend to come across as somewhat selfish and insensitive at times, as well

and as for going for the grey, that was my point about being content instead of going for the extreme of happiness

my needs, and the needs of others, are almost always prioritized over my wants, and that is usually okay by me because my "reward" is knowing that I was able to help and was there when someone needed me to be there, sometimes however it gets very old always taking care of others and having one's own needs to meet instead of being able to be selfish and irresponsible and getting what one wants, as trivial as it may be at times

I always wonder why was I so scared or hurt or in pain or in love. Why couldn't I have been untouched? It's what I wonder about because, see, I keep thinking that if I wasn't dysfunctional, I could feel what I feel, but it wouldn't throw me so much for a loop. If love were unconditional, it would be just happening easily with everything I come in contact with. Like even with pain and hurt and fear: I would love unconditionally my pain, hurt, fear. It would work like this, in a non-dysfunctional way: I would, without force or even the least little bit of effort, move in so near to the fear, the hurt, that the honest actual psychological facts would then be near and clear, and I can face them and what they mean.....their living meaning and how they seem to play out on a moment to moment basis throughout my day. Can I feel and see these facts if I've become used to them and habituated to them? No, that's how I become dull. I must love these facts about myself, without putting a 'must' in there in my mind, and without facing the facts through the screen of my image of myself, or the screen of words and explanations and rationalizations. Meaning doesn't have so very much of a chance unless my mind, on its own, comes to a stop, goes quiet, and listens in with love to the pain, and not in order to understand it---because that would be creating a motive....in other words: a screen through which it is impossible to perceive the truth in the meaning of the psychological facts of what and how my me goes on about itself through life. Love is so unconditional that it can and does love everything, even our worst discomfort. And seeing with the eyes (heart) of love brings us near enough to suffering, sorrow, pain, fear, to enable us to feel our way into what's actually going on there, understand it, and begin to live in a fuller expansiveness, openness to where meaning unravels, unfolds its beauty, its truth, its intensity, its realness. I was afraid tonight when I saw your post, Wer. I ran from it (the fear I felt). Yep. Sure did. Your post, and what you felt and said, wasn't wrong. Riette wasn't wrong. Stacey not wrong. My running from fear wasn't wrong. It just happened. Those are facts. If I can't face those facts, well, it's not that that's wrong. Wrong gets in the way of facing. It prevents me from moving in near enough for genuine, effortless learning. That's the meaning of love. Love ain't what we ever thought it was. Love isn't positive. It's not a word. It's much more real and totally different from positive. Happiness can only be a result. If it's ever strived for, it's killed, instantly. And please regard the above as further rantings of a moron in need of a knuckle sandwich. I shoulda stayed down there at the bottom of the Colorado. Sorry for passing this junk off on ya jez cuz I happened to need a fix, poor readers of this germ sqirm of words. T'weren't meant for human eyes. Uggghh.

LePlep (BTW, are you French? ha ha), you are a breath of fresh air with your stream-of-consciousness approach to life. Welcome to the spring!

Autumn talking about Spring. You're wonderful. When your leaves turn colors, time stands still and snows premature seconds of sweet cool agonizing ecstacy. I am most honored indeed to make of your acquaintance. I've read you like a book (various other postings you've done that took me by surprise by delight and had me hooked) and I'll try not to forget or overlook that this might sound to you like insincere flattery coming from a dead battery but it's not, and I'm not trying to be a schnook ---By the way, I'm so out of it....I mean I don't know what any of these things mean: BTW, IMHO, LOL, ROFLMAO, TTFN --I can imagine how ignorant you must now think I am, but hey...it's true, I'm pretty naive and stuff ....even so, it feels really nice to be welcomed by you. Thank ya, Autumn. And you really are statuesque? That alone makes my wrists shiver and my thoughtstreams quiver Oops gotta go, there's another dodge ball rippin' thru the air at my head --gee, wonder what the meaning of that really means if the meaning were really dodgy

By The Way In My Humble Opininion Laughing Out Loud Rolling On Floor Lauging My Ass Off Ta Ta For Now and yes, Leplep, welcome, and forgive my tardiness in responding specifically to your presence

Thanks alot, wer. What a revelation. I'll just go right ahead and print that out, tape it to my monitor under a picture of a tall chef --maybe by autumn I'll have these codes memorized. I really like you... your acumen is, whew, i dunno what....Redoubtable --when i read things you say, something shifts inside I think to myself: here it comes...a super-direct take on what's goin' on --it's like nothing I've encountered before BDIFHIYPLW......(boy, do i feel humble in your presence....later, wer)

Oooh, beware of the doggerel! (*beaming*)

Quite a lot hath transpired in a mere 24 hours. Truly wish for a group hug. Does anyone want to hazard a guess as to why we as a whole seem to mesh so swell. not perfectly, not seamlessly, but so well? It reminds me of our love question... what is the attraction. Ours is obviously not physical (or have I just missed to much by telneting??) attraction. And the apparent 'safety of anonimity' is a ruse because if we have revealed anything to one another, we have revealed our true thoughts, questions and in some cases... fears. WFAAILYA(u?) -- warm fuzzies all around I love you all (unconditionally?) *smile*

roflmpaiuu (rolling on floor laughing my philosophical ass into ultimate understanding)

hey, does that doggerel bite harder than I bark?

Good question, wer...time will tell... Stacey, I think you're right, we all deserve each other! LOLYOTVOFAATK (laughing out loud yet on the verge of falling asleep at the keyboard)

.....and then along came post 101..... I feel like one of those 9 kids in your class. The stuff you teach in your posts so often it's about how to get along with real glee --not how to get along in an instructional sense --but just how to do it by doing it yourself I'd totally undergo a seizure of disbelief if any of your students, when they reach their nineties and are lying there on their beds, as their lives are about to close and are asked by their great-great-grandkids if they can remember any teachers that they ever had that they liked and they say anything else but something like: well, Mildred, I mean Lucy, I'm sorry darlin', what's yer name again? oh, Oota? so it is....yes, well, Oota my memory can't get it goin' so good anymore but one teacher stands way way WAY out I had her in third grade, some 85 years ago aughhh, you're making me cry, now, Oota I'm really glad you asked me that it turns out to be a most beautiful question this teacher I could only wish upon you I wish you could have had her for a whole year like me she just did the impossible, that's all, day after day "whatdaya mean, great-great-grandaddy?" oh Oota, dearie, I had many dark and threatening clouds running me down....it was a life you won't have to have, yourself, hon' I needed an anchor, a patch of hope or I probably would've been eaten on the spot by my own dreaded, mixed-up despair and anger and personal demons I felt left out in the cold by what had been happening to me, you see and she was there in the middle of all that she was there in the room with me and the others she was there for me I found out that I was actually an okay person Oota, do you know what that can mean if it hadn't occurred to you? it's so bewilderingly uplifting it just makes you dumbfoundedly grateful you get to have your heart back and your heart drives over to your soul and asks it if it wants a lift anywhere my soul jumped right in and said, "hey, let's go all the way to the end of our lives" heart said, "no problemo, I know the way now" I gotta tell ya something else, too, Oota there were a few of us who really knew how to get teach goin' we would do somethin, whatever it was, and she'd crack up then she had this lightning quick ability to crack us all up right back and I mean time after time after time it could go on and on this was the purest fun that ever came my way and Oota, something else....Oota.... "yes, grandda.....granddad?....granddaddy?...." just a few moments later: "Mom, granddad's eyes closed he stopped breathing...... Mom....he had this.....a smile....he had this gentle smile, Mom"

amen

the meaning I find and hope to continue finding in my job is to have an impact even a fraction of what you just described. thank you.

WER, finally I get a chance to respond to the things you said earlier. I am sorry. I was wrong about you. I honestly thought you were this man who always wore a white hat, smoked alot of cigars every day, which he smelled of, and spent his nights in front of the computer with only virtual reality to keep him company, and not being able to find someone willing to counsel him. No, please don't laugh or get angry. It's just the way it was - I don't know why. But this week you were very different, so kind, and trying to help me, even though you don't like me much and all th t. You are really alot more sensitive than I thought, and not a control freak, and therefore my response was wrong too. I don't know what kind of women you've been dating, but you must find a different type altogether. Some people see the compromises that their partners are willing to make for them as a kind of submission, and see it as their right to control the other person. It's wrong and selfish. I think it is quite rare to find someone with whom, and who will want to be one's equal. That's the problem with love and relationships and all that. People take advantage of one another far too easily. It is a shame, b cause being another person's equal is so much more exciting and stimulating than standing above them. There is just so much more interaction, so much energy, and, oh, just so much more going on on the whole. Those who fancy control and the false sense of power and security it creates, will always be unhappy - because just taking or just giving is no fun - and deep down he/she will know that they will never truly be esteemed and loved for what they are.

(the control freak thing, at times, is a very correct summation)

And now you have control over my user name . . . the very thought is making me tremble. Does that mean I have to be nice to you from now on?

nope, go to http://www.spring.net/yapp-bin/restricted/userinfo and change your password

Nah . . . I can handle you, I think. And besides, I like being so close to you . . . all those knives and forks rattling away as you speak - it gives a strangely musical ring to your voice . . .

that's because you're in Switzerland and aren't getting all the volume...

Oh. Must've been a cow bell I heard then. Sorry.

no need to be... so, where should this here conversation go now?

Let me think - this conversation, you mean, or should be stick to one conference, 'cos this is getting confusing!

this conversation in this topic... (and, actually, I need to run, see ya later)

Bye.

and the meaning in all this... or perhaps we could really stir up the mix and discuss 'hidden' meaning. Oh shit! Here come the worms!!!!!

Catch them and use them for bait next time you go fishing. The meaning? Bullshit is what makes the world go round?

Or at least the world seems to run on it. If it doesn't make the world go round then it's the primary lubricant on the gears. There is so much of it produced, It has to be good for something.

What gives meaning to your life, Tim?

My friends and my religion. How about you, riette?

Family, dreams, the idea that there's still more to see and do, and other spiritual feelings. I am not religious in the concrete sense - but I think alot about spiritual things too. Like where I come from where I'll be going after this, and what and who God is. Are you Catholic?

No I'm not Catholic at all. I'm religious in the concrete sense only. I helped Katie lay a slab of cement in the backyard where she's living. It's gonna be the foundation for her to do welding. She creates unusual-looking objects. I believe they call it art or something. But I haven't seen the slab since it was cement. Maybe it's concrete by now. It's been more than a week. I think I'll venture over there by way of a weeklong pilgrimage. I'll tiptoe the whole way, since it's only a couple miles. The slab is sacred. Intuitively I can already sense the visions I'll have when I arrive there will be holy and abundant.

I was born and raised Catholic. Attended catholic schools until college. Then I Started looking at the history of the Catholic Church and found that their teachings fly in the face of their history. I now attend the church of Christ. Each congregation is autonomous. There is no hierarchy. Our congregation is wealthy, by this I mean we take in many thousand more than we need in contributions. so we support missionaries. Currently we have two churches in Russia, one in Italy, two on Indian reservations in this country, and one in New Zealand. Our weekly contribution averages ten thousand dollars. and we only have 600 members.

That's pretty impressive! I knew you were Catholic though! Hence the many many many siblings!

Everybody says that. My godparents only had one child, and they were catholic. admittedly they were the exception to the rule. Right now, at afamily reunion, limited to first cousins and their children and parents, we have over 300 people

I was the youngest there

But wouldn't have been, had your answering maching been there too.

and they had said I could bring "somebody". I'm so self-centered. Didn't even think to ask it.

You'd have to buy it flowers. Is it male or female?

it's not even hermaphrodite.....it's an it. it turns off when I try to leave flowery messages.

I personally hate when that happens...

Buy whoever you are trying to reach, a new answering machine for Christmas.

He's trying to reach THIS answering machine! He's in love with it, you see. I don't think trading it for another is going to make it any happier though!

True, Riette, But if he trades for the one he wants. then he'll have it. It will be his alone to do with as he wishes.

PLUS it would have more buttons!

And many different kinds of squeaks!

And, he could make music with it.

The perfect partner! Why don't all people not do that? He is just so way ahead of us!

Riette, I definitely prefer the situation that I'm in right now.

You mean you're having a relationship with your hi-fi???

Well, Riette, If I have to depend on a Hi-Fi, I'm in trouble. Because I don't have one.

Master Blaster then - whatever that word is you use! It doesn't matter. But have you given her a name? Like 'Melody'? 'Cos she lingers on....

Perhaps, Riette, you meant boom box. And it is definitely not a woman, because...

You mean it has a THING sticking out somewhere to make it male? WHERE?

Riette, have you ever seen a collapsible antenna?

I see one every night, and every morning.

It receives, then collapses! Isn't that how they all work??

Well Riette, you understand the principle then!

Do you know what that means, Tim? You have a gay radio fetish!

Riette, I've heard of quantum leaps before, but that takes the cake. Explain, please.

I asked you if you had any particular fancy for telephone answering machines too? You said no. So asked about your Master Blaster, and whether you were in love with her too. You said, yes, except she's not a she. And I asked, 'huh'? So you said your Master Blaster is really a boom box, and has a collapsible antenna - which makes him male, right? Because all males have the collapsible antenna thing. So: if your Master Blaster is really a boom box, and male, then you're in love with a gay radio! See? It makes perfect sense!

Riette, that is what I get for not reading the responses through

No, it's too late for excuses, Tim - I know what you did last night!

So Riette, What little bird is talking to you?

off subject, tim, but do you mean the church of christ that one can find in practically any small town in texas? or is your church independent from that?

did i say something wrong?

Slightly, Nick, There is no central hierarchy in the church of christ. Every church is governed by it's elders. No two are the same.

thanks... but can you explain? did you think i was taking a shot at the church of christ? (i wasn't)... was only trying to figure out if you were referring to the church i was familiar with, or some same-named church (i have heard tell of them) with no connection at all... and it was interesting to me mainly because i was raised in the church of christ (which, again, should be regarded as no reflection upon the church)... interesting too because a recent period of church-lessness caused me to re-evaluate my old church, or the several of them, as well as my beliefs as a christian... and i was curious... anyway, if you did believe i was somehow denigrating the church or your choice of it or whatever, i do apologize... as i said, was not my intention at all...

Actually, It's my belief's that I was a little sensitive about. In these conferences, I have been put in the position of defending some really off the wall stuff, simply because whoever replied after me had a pet peave about how I expressed myself. I do not want to be put in that position again. so, when a male that I don't know asks a question about something that I'm not discussing at the time, I just ignore it. If a woman does the same thing I'll reply. The women in these conferences aren't into head games the way that some of the guys are.

i understand (i think)... i'll always have a place in my heart for the church of christ... from my experience growing up, i have nothing but positive feelings... the thing you always hear (from others when they find out that you belong) is the thing about no musical instrumentation (which was true in each of the churches i attended)... and the thing about the exclusivity of church-of-christers among the saved (which, as far as i can tell, has no root in reality at all, cause i never heard a single word about it during all those years)... did try, a year or so ago, to attend my old church (in cherokee, ever hear of it?)... but just outside the front door, just before i entered, i heard a bit of what the minister was talking about, and i sort of stopped in my tracks, and listened a bit... the entire sermon concerned homosexuals, and the tone of the minister (a man i did, and do not know) was stern, hostile even... the words made me blanch- won't relate any of it here, but it disturbed me enough to cause me to turn around and leave... my children were with me, too, and i certainly didn't want them to hear any more of what was being said... afterwards, reflecting upon it, i was a little puzzled by precisely what it was that had troubled me so... after all, i'm a liberal commie-type living in rural central texas... i'm quite accustomed to hearing points of view that i don't agree with, and have learned it best usually just to keep my peace, let it roll, whatever... but this really bothered me, and i guess the thing is, the guy was biblically basically sound in what he was saying... and that realization sort of shook my world, cause there was no way i could see to reconcile these two things that i knew to be true (or thought i did)... wasn't exactly what i would call a crisis of faith, but it was something of a reminder to me of my terribly inept powers of comprehension... have yet to resolve this within myself... (does this make any sense at all?)

Yes, it does, by taking words out of context, the bible can be used to justify anything. The bible does teach against homosexuality, but it does not rank it any worse than heterosexual promiscuity. The one is held to be equally as bad as the other. Also,(MAJOR POINT HERE) these teachings are in the old testament. The old covenant was done away with when Jesus died. A true Christian cannot hold a violation of old covenant laws against another. For that matter the Bible teaches the opposite. The Bible teaches tolerance. The new testament of the Bible says that we are all sinners, and all EQUAL in the eyes of god, no matter what the sin.

Tim, if I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that the Old Testament regards homosexuality as a sin? And the new testament, do you feel it also regards homosexuality as a sin? Is there anything in the new testament that you disagree with? Are you okay with me asking you these things?

i've always viewed the sermon on the mount as a pivotal point in "changing" between the beliefs of the old and new testaments.

i agree regarding the distinction between old and new covenants (as well as the pivotal nature of the sermon on the mount in the understanding of it) don't think there's any doubt that according to the old testament, homosexuality is a sin (along with multitudes of other things)... in the new testament, 'sodomy' is listed as a sin (by paul) a couple of times, this definition presumeably inclusive of behaviors indulged in by heterosexuals as well... as well as 'effeminacy' (by paul again)... it may be instructive to note that paul also said something like, as christ was the head of man, man was the head of woman... that a woman could only rightly pray with her head covered, but that man needn't bother, because he (man) is the 'image and glory' of god... whereas, woman is merely the glory of man... neither of these beliefs is advanced in any way by the reported words of christ himself... so far as i know, christ never made mention of sodomy or homosexuality at all, and only mentioned the story of sodom in reference to other ideas... i think this is significant, because- logically- the most reliable words are those attributed to him... there has been much discussion re: the reasons for great similarities found in the synoptic gospels, originating as each did from geographically different areas, and containing enough deviations in each to make one being source for the others problematic... one explanation is the former existence of a 'Q' gospel, upon which all three were derived... another, more plausible to me, is that the words attributed to christ were by his express desire committed to memory by his followers... while the authorship of each document is open to question, i think it doubtful to the point of absurdity to conclude that eyewitnesses did not have at least some hand in their creation... therefore, when these books were, after the passing of some 30, 40, and 50 years, finally committed to written form they contained those particular synoptic qualities, christ's words... and this is important, especially from the point of view i allude to, because, no doubt, he would've been circumspect concerning which of his words posterity would remember... that he didn't speak of these issues at all rather disempowers those who later did (and do), or so at least is my hope... read that thomas jefferson actually cut christ's words from his bible, and assembled them together, pasted upon blank pages... this, he said, was his bible... .

That is pretty much the way I see it.

Jesus came up with two commandments to avoid sin. "LOVE GOD" "LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF" And that's all folks.........

I like the second one, I'm not so sure about the first

Having just read this topic for the first time, my understanding has been confirmed by words written by others. I knew that and I hope I conveyed the fact that I did understand.

This is long, but really worth the reading... America's Thanksgiving holiday originated when the Pilgrims gave thanks to God for sending them an Indian friend named Squanto. This much you already knew. What you didn't know is that long before the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock, this same Squanto had been captured by two English sea captains, George Weymouth and John Hunt, and abused as a slave for fourteen years. Squanto had been free less than five years when Capt. John Bradford's Pilgrims arrived on the good ship Mayflower. Squanto had every reason to organize a killing party and wipe out the pale-skinned invaders, but he chose to help them instead. Gazing with pity at Bradford's pathetic band of would-be settlers as they huddled around Plymouth Rock, Squanto thought, "If I don't help these silly white men, they're all going to die in the coming winter." And with that, he walked out of the woods and introduced himself. Squanto died two years later of a disease contracted from these same Europeans. When I was a boy, all the movies were about heroic cowboys and evil Indians. And in virtually every one of them, courageous settlers had to circle the wagons to defend themselves against unprovoked attacks from ape-like Indians who said things like, "Ugh. Me want'um whiskey." Would you like to know how Indians actually spoke back then? Consider the musings of Ispwo Mukika Crowfoot, a Blackfoot Indian who was twenty years old in 1803, the year that Lewis and Clark launched their famous expedition. As he lay dying, Ispwo left us with these last words: "What is life? It is the flash of a firefly in the night. It is the breath of a buffalo in the wintertime. It is the little shadow which runs across the grass and loses itself in the sunset." Was Ispwo Crowfoot a particularly eloquent Indian? Not at all. Fifty- nine years earlier, when George Washington was just a twelve-year-old boy, the Collected Chiefs of the Indian Nations met to discuss a letter from the College of William & Mary suggesting that they "send twelve of their young men to the college, that they might be taught to read and write." The Chiefs sent the following reply: Sirs, We know that you highly esteem the kind of learning taught in Colleges, and that the Maintenance of our young Men, while with you, would be very expensive to you. We are convinced, therefore, that you mean to do us Good by your Proposal; and we thank you heartily. But you, who are wise, must know that different Nations have different Conceptions of things; and you will therefore not take it amiss, if our Ideas of this kind of Education happen not to be the same with yours. We have some experience of it. Several of our Young People were formerly brought up at the colleges of the Northern Provinces; they were instructed in all your sciences; but, when they came back to us they were bad Runners, ignorant of every means of living in the Woods,unable to bear either Cold or Hunger, knew neither how to build a cabin, take a Deer, or kill an Enemy, spoke our Language imperfectly, were therefore neither fit for Hunters, Warriors, nor Counselors; they were totally good for nothing. We are, however, not the less obliged by your kind Offer, though we decline accepting it; and, to show our grateful Sense of it, if the Gentlemen of Virginia will send us a Dozen of their Sons, we will take care of their Education; instruct them in all we know, and make Men of them.

Sect. 43 of Wittgenstein's Philosophical Investigations says that: "For a large class of cases--though not for all--in which we employ the word "meaning" it can be defined thus: the meaning of a word is its use in the language." It is quite clear that here Wittgenstein is not offering the general theory that "meaning is use," as he is sometimes interpreted as doing. The main rival views that Wittgenstein warns against are that the meaning of a word is some object that it names--in which case the meaning of a word could be destroyed, stolen or locked away, which is nonsense--and that the meaning of a word is some psychological feeling--in which case each user of a word could mean something different by it, having a different feeling, and communication would be difficult if not impossible. Knowing the meaning of a word can involve knowing many things: to what objects the word refers (if any), whether it is slang or not, what part of speech it is, whether it carries overtones, and if so what kind they are, and so on. To know all this, or to know enough to get by, is to know the use. And generally knowing the use means knowing the meaning. Philosophical questions about consciousness, for example, then, should be responded to by looking at the various uses we make of the word "consciousness." Scientific investigations into the brain are not directly relevant to this inquiry (although they might be indirectly relevant if scientific discoveries led us to change our use of such words). The meaning of any word is a matter of what we do with our language, not something hidden inside anyone's mind or brain. This is not an attack on neuroscience. It is merely distinguishing philosophy (which is properly concerned with linguistic or conceptual analysis) from science (which is concerned with discovering acts). One exception to the meaning-is-use rule of thumb is given in Philosophical Investigations Sect.561, where Wittgenstein says that "the word "is" is used with two different meanings (as the copula and as the sign of equality)" but that its meaning is not its use. That is to say, "is" has not one complex use (including both "Water is clear" and "Water is H2O") and therefore one complex meaning, but two quite distinct uses and meanings. It is an accident that the same word has these two uses. It is not an accident that we use the word "car" to refer to both Fords and Hondas. But what is accidental and what is essential to a concept depends on us, on how we use it. This is not completely arbitrary, however. Depending on one's environment, one's physical needs and desires, one's emotions, one's sensory capacities, and so on, different concepts will be more natural or useful to one. This is why "forms of life" are so important to Wittgenstein. What matters to you depends on how you live (and vice versa), and this shapes your experience. So if a lion could speak, Wittgenstein says, we would not be able to understand it. We might realize that "roar" meant zebra, or that "roar, roar" meant lame zebra, but we would not understand lion ethics, politics, aesthetic taste, religion, humor and such like, if lions have these things. We could not honestly say "I know what you mean" to a lion. Understanding another involves empathy, which requires the kind of similarity that we just do not have with lions, and that many people do not have with other human beings. When a person says something what he or she means depends not only on what is said but also on the context in which it is said. Importance, point, meaning are given by the surroundings. Words, gestures, expressions come alive, as it were, only within a language game, a culture, a form of life. If a picture, say, means something then it means so to somebody. Its meaning is not an objective property of the picture in the way that its size and shape are. The same goes of any mental picture. Hence Wittgenstein's remark that "If God had looked into our minds he would not have been able to see there whom we were speaking of." Any internal image would need interpretation. If I interpret my thought as one of Hitler and God sees it as Charlie Chaplin, who is right? Which of the two famous contemporaries of Wittgenstein's I mean shows itself in the way I behave, the things I do and say. It is in this that the use, the meaning, of my thought or mental picture lies. "The arrow points only in the application that a livi g being makes of it."