Amy, Look what we have here. Let us continue our discussion of Mists of Avalon and Mary Stweart's trilogy - as well as trying to master Welsh and Gaelic...! Please, anyone with an interest in The Matter of Britain...please feel free to post!

These comments are copied and pasted from a previous discussion: (Marcia)I have also read NZB's Forest House. I'd like to get all of her books, but I really think I am most satisfied re-reading Mists of Avalon...! I keeep trying to make the others into it and am disappointed each time. (Amy Keene) I know what you mean--I read "The Lady of Avalon" and it just wasn't the same. I think I tried to read "The Forest House," but I never finished it. (Marcia) Whatever you do - don't waste your money on the anthology of other authors who write similar-type stories "in honor" of NZB. It is a waste of time to read and hou will resent the money you spent to achieve this book...it's really disappointing. I think I shall stick with re-reading MoA and be happy with that! (Amy Keene) "The Mists of Avalon" is kind of like "Hamlet"--no matter how many times you read it, you can always find something new and it's always interesting! (Marcia)Indeed - and the mark of a truly great book. If you have not yet read Mary Stweart's Crystal Cave, Hollow Hills, and The Last Enchantment....RUN and secure these little gems for your very own...my entire family (my ex and my son included) read my copies...and I re-read them regualrly. It is the Arthurian story from Merlin's viewpoint and superbly done! (Amy Keene) Have you read Bernard Cornwell's The Winter King, Enemy of God, and Excalibur? They are quite good--told from the point of view of Derfel Cadarn, one of Arthur's warriors who eventually becomes a saint. Cornwell brings back some of the characters that were taken out of the original Welsh versions of the story by the French. (Amy Keene) Oops, sorry! Have you read "Guenevere, Queen of the Summer Country," by Rosalind Miles? It's a really different take on the King Arthur legend. Amy Keene) Have you read Bernard Cornwell's The Winter King, Enemy of God, and Excalibur? They are quite good--told from the point of view of Derfel Cadarn, one of Arthur's warriors who eventually becomes a saint. Cornwell brings back some of the characters that were taken out of the original Welsh versions of the story by the French. (Marcia) I learnt what Welsh I know translating The Mabinogion and The Welsh Triads which Rachael Bromwich kindly left in the original language. Have not read the books you mention, but I am surely going to look them up! (Amy Keene) Holy cow, you translated those?!? How amazing! (Marcia) I am probably one of the few people in Hawaii with a Welsh Dictionary and Welsh grammar books...Cymric, that is *smile* It was the very thing that set me off on my five year search for the Kelts...! (Amy Keene) I have tried to teach myself Irish Gaelic, but it is almost impossible to do on your own. About all I can say is "C�ad M�le F�ilte" and "Pog Mo Tho�n"! The pronounciation is so much different than the spelling! Is Cymric the same way? (Marcia) It is far worse than Cymric...all they did with that language was to replace the vowels with consonants and to string all the words of description together as though in English we wrote Thechurchofsaintmaryinthewoodsbesideawaterfall. Gaelic, the brother language to brythonic, is far more difficult...at least it appears to be to me...

Okay, so we've talked about the modern stuff, but what about the oldies? I've read "Yvain" (in both French and English,) "Le Mort d'Arthur," and "Tristan et Yseult." I became interested in Arthurian literature when I read "The Mists of Avalon," but I really started liking it when I had a French lit class. When I was in European lit, my professor (*smirk*) let me teach the class French medieval literature because he knew I loved it so much, and I learned all sorts of things preparing for that presentati n.

My interest in archaeology accrued me several-to-many books on digs concerning the "places" associated with Arthur. Which made me wonder how they knew...which sent me to Geoffrey of Monmouth's Historia Regnum ...(have my own copy), and to the Welsh Triads, the Mabinogion and other source material. Since I keep trying to peel back the layer to find the original ideas, I needed to study the people whose tradition carried the story with them. Aha! The Kelts! And so on. I have Idylls of the King, Once and Future King(disliked it), Le Morte D'Arthur, and all the other popular modern permutations including Mark Twain's A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court I have no medieval texts in the original languages but I do have Tolkien's Sir Gawain and the Green Knight plus translations of Perlevaus, Tristram and Iseult, Eric and Enid plus a whole bunch of others...

Somebody should make "The Mists of Avalon" into a movie. Women would flock to it in droves. (Yes, I've read the book. It was actually required reading in an Arthurian Legends course I took...and I did like it.) But please. No Kevin Costner as Arthur or Lancelot (or Richard Gere, either). Sean Connery is great, but too old (sorry). But more importantly, since this is a feminist retelling, who would play Morgan Le Fay, evil sorceress cum revisionist legend heroine?

Interesting thoughts proposed here. It would make a spectacular movie with special effects and the *right* performers. British, preferably. Cannot think on anyone off hand - but needs be a tall verile sort (not, I think, despite my adoration for him, Colin Firth!) Let me think about that...Not Vanessa Redgrave in any part of it...like Connery, she would be splendid but too old for the role. Gonna read it again and see who I can imagine in the roles...Just what I needed! Another excuse to read the bo k! (I brought mine on a garage sale table for $1 and I think it was unused when I bought it....one of the best bargains I ever found!) Kevin should stay with baseball and wolf themes...!

I never thought of it being made into a movie, and I hope Hollywood doesn't, because I'm sure they'd ruin the whole thing. I don't recall any visions of actors coming to mind when I read the descriptions of the characters. I think Sophie Marceau would perhaps be a good Morgaine, but I don't know that the Morgaine character should be splendidly beautiful. If they did it, I would almost want them to do it with a lot of non-star actors (at least who aren't stars in the US,) so that there would be a better chance of having a quality film rather than a silly piece of oversexed fluff.

I think it should be done in Britain with british actors and personnel. Nothing coming out of Hollywood would seem appropriate it seems to me...! Morgaine should be enchanting enough to lure Arthur into her bed...ah, but that was the other version...not this one. She should probably be "nice" looking but not dazzling!

I agree--no Americanized silliness in this film! If I wanted to find a role for Colin Firth, I think I'd give him a cameo as Gorlois--he's described as dark, elegant, and Roman-looking, so I think Colin might do.

And he could do evil and sensuously-driven very well (ask all those who Drool *grinning broadly*). You will love the way Mary Stewart handles him - very erotic, indeed! Never thought of CF as Gorlois...fascinating!

I can't imagine Gorlois as that erotic--I thought that's why Igraine went for Uther in the first place!

There is a scene where Merlin is dreaming and has visions of her trying on his crown as he stands behind her and cups her ...chest?!...one in each hand. Merlin is more than a little surprised that she continues her conversation as though this was nothing out of the ordinary...I can see it in my mind's eye through hers(mary Stewart's) and his (Merlin's)...you MUST get that trilogy!!!

Igraine was married to the guy Merlin sent to his death so Uther could come to her to conceive Arthur...she was not into Gorlois except remotely, as I recall. (...need to read those books again!)

Yes, Igraine wasn't crazy in love with Gorlois, but she thought he was a decent enough husband. (In "The Mists of Avalon," I mean.) But with Uther, she experienced true desire for the first time--it was more of an animalistic attraction.

Agreed... The way Mary Stewart saw it, they were in such "need" of each other (Uther and Igraine) that when Merlin came for the infant she did not protest his taking him away to raise. I know that visceral attraction, and it can be more powerful than the need for food and air, sometimes...but it can burn-out both parties involved...(I was much younger then...*smile*)

Isn't that sort of what happened in MoA? After the lusty attraction wore off, Igraine sort of resented Uther because they had nothing else on which to base their relationship.

Agreed... The way Mary Stewart saw it, they were in such "need" of each other (Uther and Igraine) that when Merlin came for the infant she did not protest his taking him away to raise. I know that visceral attraction, and it can be more powerful than the need for food and air, sometimes...but it can burn-out both parties involved...(I was much younger then...*smile*)

Yes, indeed it was! (We are smoking the Spring again with the duplicate split posts...very odd!)

I forgot to mention that at one time, I wrote out a whole list of names which I might give to my children, and some of them were from Arthurian legend. They were: Branwen Alysoun Avalon Laoise (pronounced "Lee-sha") Broc�liande �lysie I doubt very many people would be able to pronounce them, but I really can't imagine not giving my children literary names.

Broceliande...Ah yes! It fairly tumbles out of ones's mouth in a joyous profusion of syllables. it is most musical...

And wouldn't it just suit one of my pale children with glossy black hair? *smile*

Yes, indeed it was! (We are smoking the Spring again with the duplicate split posts...very odd!)

Um...Yes *grin* It most surely would!

What did you think of the most recent version of "Merlin" that was on last year (I think)? I liked the special effects, and Miranda Richardson was pretty interesting as Queen Mab, but I'm not sure about the other characters. Some were good and some were not.

Broceliande...Ah yes! It fairly tumbles out of ones's mouth in a joyous profusion of syllables. it is most musical...

(there is a nasty echo in here and I am not doing it...!) I was hoping for a much more "meaty" version of the story than we got, but I was happy to see it at all. I liked the actor who was Merlin and MR as Queen Mab...it is a little vague now in my mind. They took liberties, of course, but who has not, including Geoffrey of Monmouth!

I only recently found out (from reading Bernard Cornwell's introduction) that the French added the character of Lancelot and changed the story so that Arthur and Guenevere didn't have children! I was astonished! Did Geoffrey of Monmouth write "Historia Regum Brittaniae"? I remember that was on my list of source materials for Arthurian legend when I taught my European lit class French medieval literature, but I can't remember if he was the person who wrote it.

He (GoM) did, indeed, and my copy is right beside me.

Actually, the Welsh/Brithonic Arthur (Dux Bellorum) and his adventures were of a much cruder sort - not much civilization in the 400's AD. Marie de France was the first one to write chivalric stuff concerning Arthur. Eleanor of Aquataine continued the fashion and it has never been the same. More and more ladies and deeds and holy grails and loathsome trolls and Fisher Kings and loads more knights were added. Malory wrote them down and now we each have a copy! Legends of Teutonic origin blend in from ime to time...it is a very interwoven tapestry, and perhaps that is why it continues to fascinate. In the original Welsh trilogies, there were three Gwennies...none had children - even in the earliest times. She was barren - thus setting up the contest between his heir and illegimate incestuous son...Doomed!

Hmm, in "Guenevere, Queen of the Summer Country," she had a son, Amir, who went along with his father to a battle when he was about seven, and he was killed by a Saxon. This set up the whole conflict between Guenevere and Arthur--she blamed him for taking her son along, and she left him, leaving him easy prey for a scheming Morgan who seduced him and got pregnant with Mordred. In another book, which I looked at but didn't actually read, she and Arthur had three sons, and I think they all died before adulthood.

Let me check Norma Lorre Goodrick's book which is a total bibliography but written in readable form....my eyes are getting tired and so are my fingers...might I do this in the morning when I am fresher?! I have several sources to check.

Do it whenever you can--I'm about to turn in for the night myself!

Tomorrow!!! I am most interested in the evolution of Guinnie, myself. If I do not speak to you again before you close out, G'night Amy!!!

Sam Neill (an Australian actor) played Merlin. I think he's terrific. Miranda Richardson might make an interesting Morgan/Morgaine. As for Colin Firth as Uther--probably a natural--yet another cuckold role (but he keeps working).

Of course, I meant Gorlois instead of Uther.

...Just as long as they keep the Feinnes brothers out of it. The Morgan, Morgause, Morgaine, character would be a really interesting choice for Miranda Richardson. Yes! Sam Neill - loved him, but he was not my Merlin for some reason. Arthur, perhaps...but not Merlin.

Uh, Marcia--Morgaine and Morgause were two different people. Morgause was Igraine's sister, remember? I like Sam Neill as an actor, but I agree that he's not quite what I had envisioned for Merlin. I thought the guy who played Merlin in "Excalibur" (which was a pretty rotten movie, but I thought it was the coolest thing in the world when I was 5--especially where the crows are pecking out the eyes of the knights hanging from the tree,) was pretty good, and more like how I envisioned Merlin. He'd have to be someone very distinguished, very English, and preferably have "Sir" in front of his name.

They get lost in the translations from book to book. Since I do not have a source book on the Morgan / Morgaine character, I cannot definitively speak on this (gotta get out all those years of notes I took), but I have seen authors use the three names interchangeably...which is quite odd. I guess they could no decide who was a sister and who was a daughter as regards Igraine. Will check further in my texts to see what they say. (Some of these characters were added to the mix by later authors, and it g ts very confusing.) Excalibur was a pretty rotten movie...like a nightmare! Yes, Merlin should have distinguished bearing and indefinite age...something other-worldly, as well, would help.

I am still hunting for Morgause, but found this http://www.uidaho.edu/student_orgs/arthurian_legend/origins/arthur.html Origins of Arthurian Legend Was Arthur Myth or Man? That's a question we can't answer with certainty, but we can guess that Arthur is a blend of Fact and Fantasy. According to Geoffrey Asche, the historical figure from whom Arthurian legend sprang may have been a fifth century warrior king called Riothamus. Written references to Arthurian-type figures begin with the work of Gildas, a sixth-century monk who wrote De Excidio Britanniae ("Concerning the Ruin of Britain"). Gildas' lurid description of battle against the Saxons culminates with the British "remnants" rallying behind a man called Ambrosius Aurelianus. Nennius, a Welsh monk who wrote around the year 800, was the first to refer to Arthur by that now-familiar name. In his Historia Brittonum, Nennius lists Arthur's twelve great victories over the Saxons, finishing with the triumph at Mount Badon. Mordred's role in Arthurian legend may also begin with Nennius, who mentions a son of Arthur, killed by his father. By the twelfth century, the legend of King Arthur had become very popular. William of Malmesbury wrote in Gesta Regum Anglorum of Arthur's prowess as a warrior. This is a dressed-up version of the tales of Nennius and Gildas with one vital variation: in this tale, Arthur's role appears to be not that of overlord, but of general. Geoffrey of Monmouth's Historia Regum Britanniae appeared about the same time as Malmesbury's work. Geoffrey claimed his story came from an ancient book handed to him by the Archdeacon of Oxford. The existence of such a book cannot be disproved, but it is entirely likely that Geoffrey's fantastic story came from a compilation of contemporary romantic tales and his own inventive imagination. A number of Welsh manuscripts dated to this period also deal with Arthurian legend. (The stories themselves, however, may be even older.) Culhwch and Olwen details the exploits of Arthur and his company, while the Triads of the Isle of Britain lend us a tantalizing glimpse of stories lost to us.

For a little glimpse into the pronunciation of things Brythonic, Culhwch is pronounced KILL'hooock

Here's what it says about Morgause in "British and Irish Mythology" by John and Caitlin Matthews: The second child of Gorlois of Cornwall and Igerna. She married King Lot of Orkney by whom she had Gawain, Gaheris, Agravaine, and Gareth. Her fifth child, Mordred, was the result of her incestuous union with her half-brother, Arthur. She had a dark reputation, much like that of her sister, Morgan le Fay, and eventually perished at the hands of her own son Gaheris, who caught her in bed with Lamorack, son of the Orkney clan's greatest enemy, King Pellinore. I had never heard that she was the mother of Mordred--I always thought it was Morgaine--but that's what the book says.

I think the three names for her are just from different sources...French, Brythonic and a collection of others which ended up as the English tradition. Morgan / Morgause / Morgaine was the 1/2 sister of Arthur whom she seduced and produced Mordred - something Merlin knew about immediately, but Arthur did not for years...! Your book is correct!

Read Mary Stewart - she casts the figures in solid stuff then footnotes the whole thing.

But the book also casts Morgaine as an entirely different person: Daughter of Gorlois of Cornwall and Igerna, half-sister to King Arthur, mother of Owain/Uwain by Uriens of Gore. According to Malory, Morgan was "put to school in a nunnery, where she learned great sorcery." She becomes Arthur's most implacable enemy, attempting by means of magic to destroy him and the Round Table Fellowship. She was responsible for stealing the sword Excalibur and when this was recovered, succeeded in losing forever the scabbard which protected its wearer from all wounds. To the writers of medieval romances of Arthur, she was no more than a sorceress behind her stands the figure of the ancient Celtic battle-goddess the Morrighan. Vestiges of this earlier identity remain embedded in the character as we now have it, such as her appearance with two other shadowy queens on the ship which takes Arthur to Avalon at the end of his days. In Geoffery of Monmouth's poem the "Vita Merlini" she is described as ruling over a magical kingdom with her twelve sisters, while in later medieval romances such as "Huon of Bordeaux" she has become Fata Morgana, the Queen of Faery, who steals away mortal men to be her lovers. In more recent times her name has become synonymous with witchcraft, although there are again signs that she is becoming restored as a more ancient and powerful figure more in accordance with her origins. She may also be identifi d with Modron, another aspect of the Celtic Mother Goddess.

Interesting, Indeed! Igerna and Ygraine and Igraine are just different spellings of her mother. It seems to me that she is the same - just in different guises. Must I rush you my own tattered-beyond-belief copies of Mary Stewart's trilogy? It is the best you will ever read about it - even better, but different from Mists of Avalon. Trust me on this, and you will have a better picture of her and her sisters.

Bradley obviously thinks of Morgaine as separate from Morgan - which is her right as a fiction writer...This is entitled "Morgain" also known as Morgan Le Fay. I am the half sister of the Great king Arthur Pendragon. History claims I am a witch. On this page I would like to show you another side of my personality. I often am characterised as an evil witch, whose only goal is to ruin Arthur's reign. The only one who really understood me is Marion Bradley. Her book, The Mists of Avalon, is a reliable source of information on my family-history. In this book she tells the true story about me and the other women around Arthur. These women, Igraine (our mother), Morgause (my aunt), Vivian (my aunt and Lady of the Lake) and me, of course, are the main characters in the book. I am not an evil witch, but a priestess of the Goddess. Being a priestess, I have great knowledge of herbs and magic; I think it is for this reason that people believe I am a witch. It was during my education that faith (or the Goddess?) brought us together. http://www.missgien.net/morgaine/morgaine.html

Morgause Wife and widow of 'King Lot of Lothian and Orkney'. Mother of 'Gawain' (See Gawain), 'Agravain' (See Agravain), 'Gaheris' (See Gaheris), 'Gareth' (See Gareth). Half-sister of 'Arthur' as the second daughter of 'Igraine' (See Igraine) and 'Gerlois' (See Gerlois). Sister of 'Morgan le Fay' (See Morgan le Fay) and 'Elaine of Garlot' (See Elaine of Garlot). It is suggested in some of the later works that Morgause may have been the mother of 'Clarisant' (See Clarisant), although prophecies were made pertaining to the fact that Morgause was thought to have had five children. As she is known to have conceived 'Mordred' (See Mordred) by Arthur who was under an enchantment by Morgan le Fay it has been suggested that Mordred rather than Clarisant is the fifth child. Yet there is the possibility that the fifth could be 'Soredamor'. Reputed to have been the lover of 'Lamorack de Galles' (See Lamorak). She was killed by her own son Gaheris when she was discovered with Lamorack. Morgause, together with her four sons, and a small army of soldiers is described in some legends as having gone to make peace with Arthur, carrying a flag of truce, despite her husband's previous opposition to Arthur being ruler of Britain. She is said to have begged forgiveness, promising the loyalty of her sons and herself to the royal household. Her sons were granted Arthur's protection, trained in the craft and arms and Knighted by Arthur himself. Some legends indicate that the sealing of this bargain with a kiss passed between the King and Morgause is one of her own sacrifice to him. Arthur, unaware of his relationship to her family, believing himself to be of the 'Ector de Sauvage's' (See Ector de Sauvage) family, is unaware of what such an involvement in a relationship with Morgause would mean. Later versions of the legends play upon this fact when developing the enchantment that befalls Arthur leading to the conception of Mordred. In some legends she becomes Arthur's mistress before his involvement with 'Guinevere' (See Guinevere). He is said to suffer with the darkest dreams whilst he is with her. 'Kay' (See Kay) summons 'Merlin' (See Merlin) as Arthur grows steadily weaker. He learns the truth, that his mistress is also his half-sister. Merlin prophecies that the son conceived from their union will one day attempt to usurp him, and destroy all that he achieves during his reign. Despite his attempts to find Morgause and his desire to kill her, a child is born on the first day of May, and Arthur's fate it seems is sealed. Arthur hoped to find the child by ordering all those born on this day to be found and brought to his court. The babes were placed in a boat and cast out to sea to be destroyed, as Arthur hoped that this would ensure that the child conceived with Morgause would be killed. Of course his illegitimate son survives and returns to revenge his own abandonment and to destroy the King and the Knights of the Round Table http://www.mystical-www.co.uk/arthuriana2z/m.htm#MORG

I am so confused....! This is the most complete listing of all things Arthurian from anywhere. It is worth spending time there: http://www.mystical-www.co.uk/arthuriana2z/index.htm

I'm confused too--I guess it's because most of the books I've read have Igraine and Morgause as sisters (if Morgause appears in the story at all,) and Morgaine (whom I thought was the same person as Morgan le Fay,) as the daughter of Igraine and Gorlois and the mother of Mordred. Every movie I've seen, every book I've read has Morgaine as the mother of Mordred! I think I might email my Shakespeare professor, who also knows a lot about King Arthur, and see if she has any input on the subject.

Ah yes...good idea. Do ask her...and say hi! for me...*grin* I am surrounded by "source books" on things Arthurian, and apparently a lot is up for interpretation since it was oral tradition of the Bards which kept it alive ... and each Bard added something of his own to the story. I am surprised we can trace it as well as we can at this remove!

Legends can be molded and remolded to fit the whims of the storyteller.

Sorry, Marcia. I'd kind of envisioned Ralph Fiennes as Arthur and Joseph as Sir Launcelot Du Lac. ;))))))))))))))) (just kidding!!!!!)

True...and the whole cloth from which Arthuriana is derived is so flimsy that almost any liberty can be taken with it without causing alarm or even eliciting negatitive comments. Unfortunately, at this far remove it will almost be impossible to recover anything of the original tales (though that Arthurian A-Z URL is pretty thorough). It is also impossible to tell where the real Arthur stops and the legend begins. Like Stonehenge and other parts of our treasured past, we interpret them for our times and needs - forget about the real details!

JOHN! LOL...I figured someone might say that...!

I'm still trying to figure out just where the hell "Malagant" in First Knight (dreadful movie, but love both Connery and Julia Ormond) came from. Oh, well, expect anything from a director who casts Richard Gere as a kung-fu fighting Launcelot.

There is a 4th book about Arthur after the Last enchantment called "The Wicked Day." It is about Mordred growing up and finaly meeting his father who claims him and gives him a seat at the roundtable. It goes up to the Arthur's last battle which is against Mordred. It names Morgause as Mordred's mother.

There are actually 5 books in the series...and I have them all well worn. I thought I had posted as synopsis of The Wicked Day...but cannot find it..will tomorrow if I cannot find it above. Melwas aka 'Meleagraunce', 'Meliagrance', 'Meleagant', 'King of the Summer Country', (See Summer Country). Also 'Melwas, Prince of Death' and 'Melwas, Princely Youth'. Reputed to have been an evil man, and a terrifying Knight who captured 'Guinevere' (See Guinevere) taking her to his own land where she was rescued in the earliest Arthurian romance legends by 'Arthur' (See Arthur), but later it was 'Lancelot' (See Lancelot) who was the hero and victor over Melwas (who appears to have disliked Arthur intensely, determining to war with him). The depiction of Arthur as the hero is included in the work entitled 'The Life of St Gildas' (See Gildas). 'Chr�tien de Troyes' (See Chr�tien de Troyes) depicts Lancelot as a hero, and a man so in love with Guinevere that in order to save her he is prepared to travel to where she is imprisoned in a cart, a mode of transport utilised for criminals normally. Lancelot is described as having to cross the 'Sword-Bridge' (See Sword-Bridge) to reach Guinevere. Melwas of the Otherworld (See Otherworld) later became Sir Meleagraunce in the later developments of the Grail romances, and changed from a King to a Knight, but still defeated despite all his best endeavours. According to the earlier account of the relationship of Arthur and Melwas, it was also written in the work entitled the 'Life of Caradoc', (See Caradoc) that mediation between the feuding kings was attempted to achieve peace. This process could not have been conducted by Caradoc himself as is often suggested as he was a Welsh saint of the twelfth-century, a completely different time period to the historical Arthur. The romances of the medieval period the French 'Vulgate Cycle' became a major influence on all later developments of the story, some of which solicit the help of 'Taliesin' (See Taliesin) and also 'Galahad' (See Galahad) to secure the Queen's release.

O.K. so the mysterious Malagant did appear--as several other close, but no cigar names--at least in legend, but did he kill Arthur in any of your books, as he did in First Knight? I always thought that Mordred (how appropriately named) did...

Marcia: re your second to last paragraph post 56 "historical Arthur." I am under the impression that the "historical Arthur" is a perhaps, not a certainty, despite a strange grave in Glastonbury.

I wish I were descended from a "historical Beowulf." Then I could proudly tell people "I'm a Geat!"

I have an interesting Beowulf file I just might send you one of these days...I am not sure if you are old enough to read it...*grin* All of these Arthurian names are so old that they have endured many different spellings. ONLY Mordred killed Arthur - it had to be that way to complete the tragedy unfolding. Hey, I'll call you Johnlemagne anytime you wish...'cause I think you are!

Historical Arthur comes from the West Cadbury (nothing to do with chocolate) hillfort excavations and their results. A Castrum, or fortified hill fort was found to have been there in the 400's AD and had the fortified entrances and exits. Only such a fort could have been held by a Dux Bellorum or Duke of Battles - most likely Arthur's title. There is also some evidence that someone named similarly to Arthur existed then...perhaps the legend is an amalgam of the two! There was a ready supply of sling s ones in the nearby stream...I have driven by it several times on the way to Glastonbury...a lovely ruin, but not Arthurian, by any means! No more than Stonehenge was Druidic (Yeesh!)

That's evidence that there was a Dux Bellorum...not necessarily that Arthur actually existed. I know there are references in stone to "Arthurus" and "Arthurius" just as there were shrines to Kilroy everywhere in World War II, but nobody actually met him, either. It would be cool to think Arthur actually existed--but the legend is too fantastic, just like I would love to think Beowulf existed--but if that means Grendel (and Grendel's mother) did also, I'm going to have a nightmare!

I have come across some even more confusing information--I was looking in Wolfram von Eschenbach's "Parzival" to see what I could find, and it says in there that Arthur's sister (a full sister, not half) was named Sangive, and she married Lot and had Gawain. It also lists Arthur's mother as Arnive, which I suppose could be a variant of Igraine, and says that Arthur and Ginover (as it is spelled here) had a son named Ilinot who was killed in service to his lady Kanadic. I can't find any reference in here to a Morgaine, Morgause, or Mordred character, except there is a character called Terdelaschoye who is a fairy and "closely associated with fata morgana." I think the farther this story got away from England, the crazier it got!

Wow.

You said it all, Amy, when you said the farther away from England this story got the crazier (and more fantastic) it became. Each tradition added their own particular nasty beasts to conquer, more ladies in convoluted relationships with the main characters - some made up just for the sake of drama... John, I think there was not as much doodling at the time of Arthur as there was at the time of Kilroy, simply because the implements hard enough to scribe stone were not readily available to just anybody...and the stones on which he is mentioned are the sort of memorial stones which take a lot of work and thought. It is still up for grabs - he is probably a compilation of wishful thinking, legend and two or three real Dukes of Battle (my guess)

I do love the fact that they were doodling with a chisel--and in Latin.

During Roman rule in Britain there was an apparent lack of things to do at Hadrian's wall. There is more chisled graffiti there than anywhere else I can think of in that time period.

...and, as you point out...it is in perfectly good Latin. How scholarly it makes it all seem!

Illegitimi non tatum carborundum.

There's supposedly a graffity in the Hagia Sofia in nordic runes, spelling "Halfdan was here".

Isn't that funny--we look at graffiti now and say, "Oh, look what that idiot did!" But if someone did it 1000 years ago in Latin or Nordic, we say, "Isn't that interesting?!?"

Oh, Indeed! But the sentiments expressed are often the same - whoever was here, and so-and-so cheats at cards...! Nothing changes =)

They saved some of the russian graffitis in Berlin's Reichstag when it was renovated. Many of them where removed, some read like "Adolf I f***ed your mother" e.g. Many germans don't like it that they weren't removed totally but I think it's part of our history and this should be conserved. When I visited a rokoko-chinoise pagoda in Kassel, there were graffitis from soldiers looking for women after WW II. If they will ever be removed by renovation I hope they at least photograph the whole stuff...graffitis can be very interesting, historically...

Indeed - graffiti served as the local bulletin board before such things were set up formally. It is a little window on the world in which the writer lived at the time. Remember to date your graffiti so future generations will know exactly to what you are referring !

I talked to my esteemed Shakespeare professor about the Morgaine/Morgause question, and she said that they are indeed two different people, and that Morgaine is indeed the mother of Mordred. She said that she considers Malory to be the authority on these matters and when there is any question, he's the text to which to refer. Does that help?

Yes, it does help. Malory is highly suspect in some circles, but when you are dealing with these legends where they change from day to day and author to author, her authority is as valid as any. The Welsh used her as a triad of the same woman - three faces of Morgan/Morgause/Morgaine See what you think when you read Mary Stewart and read her references on the subject. This is a subject with no "correct" answers!

I know--that's what my professor said. She said that it's hard to argue about these things, since there are no right or wrong answers. It's very interesting to see what different modern authors do with the legends, in some cases creating entirely new versions of the myths.

...which leads newbies to trust the first one they read and say that is the true version. It is well to read widely in Aruthuriana. I prefer Mary Stewart's version simply because it is such a good read. Much better than TS White (who I disliked intensely for making Merlin into an old fool) and far more readable than Malory.

I think the adventures themselves of the knights are told best by Malory. Women--except for Morgan, who is important, if one-dimensional in her evil--are slighted, of course, in his versions: as damsels in distress, Guinevere as both the embodiment of Mother Mary (which no flesh and blood woman can live up to) and as the sex object of contention between Artie and Lance, and even Igraine is nothing more than a vessel for Arthur's birth. Thus, Bradley was a welcome change of pace although it is a little d stracting seeing Morgan/Morgaine go from w(b)itch to heroine and Guinevere to villainess. Still, a well-written story.

I don't think Morgaine was entirely likeable in MoA--I liked her at the beginning, but then when she married Uriens (I think it was) I started seeing the bad side of her coming out after all. I thought, "Morgaine, you're screwing up!" I actually liked the Guenevere character in that book, because she tried so hard to be perfect, but when it came to Lancelot, she just couldn't do it. However, being a hypocrite wasn't very becoming to her...

After all, I think Morgaine was just as dogmatic about her beliefs as Guenevere was, it's just that Bradley presented them in two entirely different lights so that I didn't even notice that at first.

Good point. Christianity was presented as THE ENEMY, which villainized Guinevere (I don't remember the Gaelic-like spelling Bradley used) and to a lesser extent, Arthur himself.

You will be interested in how Merlin views God in Mary Stewart's books - I think she did the best job of walking the theological tightrope. John, I just might have to lend you my copies of her books! I know you would enjoy it - all from Merlin's viewpoint, and Frank liked it as did David - and David is a non-reader!

I've read Stewart. Required in the course I took.

But unlike you, I liked White...it was "Camelot" I couldn't stomach.

Perhaps that was my problem. Camelot (and not a Kennedy fan, either, but don't tell anybody!)...yeesh! You must have had a very good course - who taught it? I am more than a little pleased that Stewart was required reading. Guess you can tell that I loved her version...every last word of it - would not have changed anything. Your opinion?

I'm nearly halfway through "The Crystal Cave," and I must confess that I'm not enjoying Stewart's style too much. She goes into long descriptions of places and things, but they don't really function in the story. I find myself saying "Come on already!" because sometimes the minute descriptions hold up the flow of the story.

I wish my university had a course in Arthurian literature! Maybe I'll ask around and see if anyone would like to create one.

I'm nearly halfway through "The Crystal Cave," and I must confess that I'm not enjoying Stewart's style too much. She goes into long descriptions of places and things, but they don't really function in the story. I find myself saying "Come on already!" because sometimes the minute descriptions hold up the flow of the story.

Ok, she is laying the ground work for the rest of the story. The Hollow Hills has most of the great magic in it. Big time and I am getting chills thinking about scenes therein. She paints a very detailed picture, but you are not left wanting when she is finished...it is all very good stuff. I guess that is what draws me back each time...I do not want it to end!

Well, I thought that might be the case--since Merlin is just a kid and doesn't even understand the magic he has within himself, it's kind of difficult to have really spectacular magical scenes. I'm being patient, really!

I have a geode which I cal The Crystal Cave because it is just as I imagined him crawling into for his blinging visions. I thought I had bad headaches on occasion, but the ones he must have had were incredible. As he says, the Gods exact a price for letting you have these gifts. Has Ambrosius come into the story yet (other than a brief mention at the beginning?)

Yes, he's staying at Ambrosius' palace right now. Is Ambrosius' brother Uther THE Uther Pendragon? I thought he was younger than Merlin.

Ooooh...its gonna get really good really soon now...! Yes, Ambrosius is Uther Pendragon's brother....that is all I can say right now. Do not want to give away anything, but keep reading. I am all excitement!!

That would make Ambrosius Arthur's uncle, eventually...

That it would. I found Stewart an acquired taste, much like Faulkner for exactly the same reason Amy mentions. But it was my professor (David Miller, who has published several articles on the "different" Lancelots of different authors) who told me to be patient and it would pay off--and I found he was right. Being a longtime radio and television news writer, I'm kind of a get to the point person, which is one of the reasons I love Hemingway. And although Stewart's painstaking descriptions sometimes se med perhaps too detailed, at least she is sticking to the point and not meandering in her style. Certainly her Merlin voice does have a propensity towards purple prose. White, on the other hand makes me laugh. I love his description of Pellinore nearly killing Arthur and (a third-person) Merlin having to save his butt. Very few pieces of literature make me laugh out loud, but Twain's "The Cat and the Painkiller" chapter of Tom Sawyer and White's narrative of Pellinore kicking Arthur's arse both do.

A knight and his men return to their castle after a long hard day of fighting. "How are we faring?" asks the king. "Sire," replies the knight, "I have been robbing and pillaging on your behalf all day, burning the towns of your enemies in the west." "What?!" shrieks the king. "I don't have any enemies to the west!" "Oh," says the knight. "Well, you do now."

LOL John, If that is from White, I'm gonna read him again. I tend to worship whatever MS wrote about Merlin and regard what is in her stories as the "true" version. Hers is a serious style and no fooling around...and I judge all others by her criteria. They all fall short for me, but I shall read White (own it, actually) again and give it a fair chance. btw, David Miller should have taught a good course...did he?! (Don't have to answer that, of course.)

That's not from White. That's simply a joke I'm relaying.