they were fearful of a killer on the loose in Buenos Aires. I believe there was mass hysteria back then. People were disappearing by the hundreds. That is why the felt safe behind their masks. It was another way to detach themselves of the outer world, Buenos Aires.

(Lisa) and isn't the cross that Jack gives to Adrian ( for his mother) from the dead woman? (Moon)I agree about the cross, Jack probably took it from that dead woman and planned to give it to Adrian for his mother I thought the cross was given to Jack by Vanessa (gay guy). Jack had been in his/her apratment before he went in to Apt 0...When he saw Adrian distraught, he said ..."here...I got this for your mother today in ? (sounded like some flea maarket)"

Hi everyone! I am a fan of Colin Firth and have been following your Apartment Zero discussion and had to join in. This movie was always very upsetting and unsettling for me until now. I think I have been able to understand it better because of your discussion. I have a question. What do you think is the underlying statement this Apartment Zero is making?

Glad to hear our discussion is helping you understand it better, Caribou. I think we are slowly working our way to answer your question. Stay tuned. :-)

(Lisa) Do you think Adrian gets caught for murdering Jack and assisting with the disposal of Claudia? Does he continue to kill? No, I wouldn't think he continues to kill and he probably wasn't caught for either murder. Claudia's would be chalked up to being political retribution as she was a member of that group trying to uncover the identities of the death squad. (Moon) There is a scene with different shots of Claudia and the next scene is Adrian waking up in bed, a bit shaken. The scene of a man and woman in a cafe is seen through Jack's eyes. Yes, Adrian wakes up a bit shaken, but he is hearing Jack's sobbing in the other room. Toward the end, after they've dumped Claudia's body, Adrian has little flashbacks of Claudia at the theater. (Tracy) What I also saw (or thought I saw) was Jack's hand squeeze Adrian's trigger finger as he was aiming the gun toward himself. Having just rewatched this sequence over and over to try to sort out the hands and fingers, I don't think you can tell whose finger is on the trigger. However, it sure sounded to me like Jack says, "do it," which would mean Adrian actually pulled the trigger. (Evelyn) Jack was already dead according to the authorities...didn't the man in the raincoat tell him that? Jack actually tells this to Adrian in the car after dumping Claudia. In the men's room, the raincoated man tells him he doesn't want to see him anymore. (Moon) Comparison with Psycho Both had a shower scene. ;-D (Lisa) Now I am confused. Join the club. I got totally confused, so just rewatched. ;-D (Lisa) but were the first two murders in the film "hits?" I think so. Why else would Jack continually be meeting up with the raincoated man in BA? He's getting his orders. (Lisa) I don't remember the news coverage of the first murder supporting this. Although the death squad activity was technically over, the news coverage did mention that the method of killing was the same as by the death squad members. (Lisa) isn't the cross that Jack gives to Adrian ( for his mother) from the dead woman? The woman wasn't wearing a cross. (Caribou) What do you think is the underlying statement this Apartment Zero is making? Get three solid references before renting. ;-) OK, onto a question I have: Jack's eyes intrigue me. As Gi mentioned early on, he uses them to seduce people. But a couple of times, Jack is wearing sunglasses, covering those mesmerizing eyes. When he tries to leave the country, the customs official asks him to take off his glasses and they do a little staring, but Jack doesn't get his way and is denied. Later, he wears the sunglasses when Claudia is at the door. What do you think is going on? Who noticed that the name on Adrian's mother's door was Princessa? ;-D

Who noticed that the name on Adrian's mother's door was Princessa? ;-D VG, Karen! Since that was the ambience that Adrian grew up in, it explains his standoffish attitude with the rest of the neighbors very well. It also makes the change that takes place at the end a harder one, more psychological. ;-) When he tries to leave the country, the customs official asks him to take off his glasses and they do a little staring, but Jack doesn't get his way and is denied. Later, he wears the sunglasses when Claudia is at the door. What do you think is going on? He has lost his identity and tries to hide behind his dark shades. He is starting to lose it and he does not trust what his eyes might reveal.

(Karen)Who noticed that the name on Adrian's mother's door was Princessa? ;-D This just adds to the feeling I get that Adrian's mother represents Eva Peron. The scene where he sees her lying on the bed in the glowing white room hauntingly reminded me of seeing Evita in her glass coffin.

If Adrian's mother "represents" anyone but herself, then I guess Adrian must be a symbol too?

If Adrian's mother "represents" anyone but herself, then I guess Adrian must be a symbol too? From a CF website: "Director Martin Donovan: "Apartment Zero for me was a metaphor for Argentina. For me, Adrian LeDuc is Argentina - old-fashioned, elegant, detached. He senses himself invaded by a presence which he at first finds positive. By the time he discovers that it is not, it's too late. He's grown used to it." [Giuliana Mercorio, September 14, 1989]" So his mother could be construed to be Evita. Thanks Caribou for that insight. and Karen for picking up the clue of her name on the door...

Interesting... Thanks, Evelyn.

So what must that make Jack? Hmmm, let's see. He's the horrible foreigner (or American) that is all things to everybody but screws and kills them all. Work for you? ;-D

If Adrian represents Argentina, then the other neighbors could also represent some part of Argentina. The old English ladies that stayed = the colonization of foreigners ie. Maldinas. The young woman = loneliness and isolation. Vanessa the transvestite = the non-morals of present-day society, etc. Argentina is not stable, Adrian is not stable. They are both being taken over by different circumstances, mainly the killings, and the desaparecidos. Jack loses it with the passport. He had become comfortable with who he was, the mercenary. He has to change identity once more and feels comfortable with Adrian Le Duc�s passport. But when that one does not work out and he has need for another passport a once more a new identity, he loses it completely. Adrian loses it with the death of his mother. Of course, these two circumstances occur at about the same time. Visually we see the crypt doors close on Adrian. The next scene goes to Claudia entering Apt. 0 and the door closing behind her. With his mother dead, Claudia is now the only other woman Adrian likes and actually talks to. With Claudia dead, Adrian is completely trapped. But why does he help Jack? Maybe it is the only way he can know what happens to the body. It is the least he could do for Claudia.

In the beginning of the film Adrian says, �A James Dean retrospection always works miracles�. At the end Adrian has transformed himself into a James Dean type. It is a miracle he got through it all, as Argentina has. I watched the end again and saw that Jack did put his thumb over Adrian�s finger on the trigger. So we can assume that they both pulled the trigger. In the creepy scene at the end we see Jack dressed in Adrian�s suit and we also see a hole on his right temple. In the end shot in front of the movie theatre, we see Adrian dressed liked Jack and he even has the stitches on his right temple. Adrian took full responsibility for changing Jack, the Gemini once more.

Good conclusions, Moon. I must watch it again.This film is like a mine field. (Moon)at the end we see Jack dressed in Adrian�s suit and we also see a hole on his right temple. In the end shot in front of the movie theatre, we see Adrian dressed liked Jack and he even has the stitches on his right temple Probably dressed in Jack's clothes.Completing the exchange of personas.

(Moon) In the beginning of the film Adrian says, "A James Dean retrospection always works miracles". Have always had a problem with Adrian's comment. James Dean only made three movies. How could that solve his financial problems? ;-D More later

At the end Adrian had put up black curtains to separate the living room from the dining room where Jack waited so patiently for him. ;-) The drama, the stage, the pretense, the actor, all things that attracted Adrian were now more than ever part of his life. He could handle it. The rest of the house could stay a mess, but his stage was set.

(Lisa) isn't the cross that Jack gives to Adrian ( for his mother) from the dead woman? I think I found the origin of the cross necklace. Something is happening off-camera when the scene opens with Jack in Vanessa's apartment . There is an exchange of some sort and a thank you. I think Vanessa gives Jack the necklace and he is still holding it when he comes home to find Adrian there early in the day. (Karen) So what must that make Jack? Hmmm, let's see. He's the horrible foreigner (or American) that is all things to everybody but screws and kills them all. Work for you? ;-D Jack is the American that shows up to help Adrian with his financial problems but he is almost like the American Adrian wishes would show up. Adrian says he reminds him of James Dean (America "Hollywood style"). It's almost a dream come true for a fan.

Wow! karenr's BJD is number one on google.com now when I search for "Bridget Jones Sequel". It's ahead of some pretty big sites. Not surprising, since the content there is head and shoulders above everyone else. Great work, Karen!

Have been waiting patiently for the last several days and was just wondering: what is considered a quorum for the purpose of discussing WOF? Have been watching it multiple times in order to be able to participate. Since I have missed all of the very interesting and entertaining discussions to date, am eager to begin. Please advise how long these things usually take.

Usually, we just set a date to start it off - which we haven't done yet. I think a number of people were going to be ordering it from Amazon or elsewhere. How does a week from Monday sound? June 11? Should it be sooner? Let's hear some opinions.

Not sooner, please! I will extremely busy in June, but will add my two cents, and my two euros. ;-) It hope that gives everyone enough time to get the tape.

June 11 is fine with me, if it gives everyone time to join in. I'll look forward to it.

Gaaah! I just looked at the paper for the first time in days and realized that we were supposed to begin discussion of WOF today. I haven't had much time lately to put my thoughts together, but if someone else starts I will gladly jump in with my comments. I thought this was a pretty interesting choice for CF. I wonder if it was because he wanted to work with PO'T. I found CF's character to be the most "normal" in his behavior--perhaps intentionally, since he was the only person on the island who was famous only due to his connection to a famous person--by proxy, as it were. Since he had never been famous while on earth, it didn't bother him when his fame in the afterlife turned out to be fleeting. That's all for now. Will be back tomorrow when I have more time.

I'll throw my two cents in, but I'm starting with 2 very prosaic questions: 1. What was the name of the resort where it was filmed? 2. What do you think the reason is that Bianca won't go back? Is she too afraid that she won't be able to handle regaining her memory and would rather be in the vacuum?

I think it's because Bianca doesn't think she is even dead. And what's with Dr. Frische (am I spelling that right?). Why is she there to talk to the guests and then it turns out she was never registered at all? It's almost like Smith is taking Valentin on a journey of self discovery (in his wirter's head) in order to show him how awful it was that he stole his manuscript and to appease his own anger at the same time. Did you notice the plaque on Smith's door in the afterlife? It read: Brian SMITH 1957-1966 Murderer. Those dates make him only nine years old. Was that a mistake or was that when the book was published or something? The movie is very surreal to me. Is it possible that the whole movie, starting at the point he takes the gun, is in Smith's head? Remember he says to Valentin at the dock, I didn't say "I did," I said "suppose" (about killing him). I do love the way CF pronounces Bianca's name--more like "Bi-Anka" as in Paul, the singer ;-). And I love his look, at the end, when he watches the teens (who he gathered) ask Valentin for autographs. Very sweet and satisfied. When he walks off, is he going to Paris (it was on the departure board that he looked up at)? Maybe to research and write about Bianca's life in order to keep her comfortable in the afterlife (if he couldn't take her with him), if that was a reality or is it to immortalize her? I guess it's the same thing... And what's the symbolism of the dolphin earring? I'm not sure where reality and imagination begin and end in this movie. And where was the movie shot? Is it supposed to be London (everyone speaks in British accents, except a reporter in 1966 and the two Valentin retropective participants in 1990)? So many questions...sorry...it is a very strange and hard movie to understand completely. More comments to come on CF's performance which was very subtle since he had to seem like a fanatic fan at the beginning, but was really angry writer because his manuscript was plagiarized.

Thanks to all our new ladies for starting us off so well. I'll be with you soon. Started watching it last night, pausing to take notes, which I won't be able to decipher later. This process makes a 2 hour movie at least 4 hours long... What we don't go through. ;-D Couple of quick things: (Lora) Why is she there to talk to the guests and then it turns out she was never registered at all? I think she lost her fame on earth, so in the hotel's eyes, she doesn't exist anymore and that's why the attendant said she wasn't registered. They too forget their guests. (Lora) I do love the way CF pronounces Bianca's name--more like "Bi-Anka" as in Paul, the singer ;-). Me too. :)

"It read: Brian SMITH 1957-1966 Murderer. Those dates make him only nine years old. " I noticed that as well. Also, how long do they spend on the island? In real time it doesn't seem to be that long, but I can't believe that when they go back Valentin is such a total unknown. I know it's supposed to mean fame is fleeting, but I can't believe it goes that quickly for a star of Valentin's repute. You are so right. It is sweet that Colin arranges for those girls to ask him for his autograph.

(Karen)I think she lost her fame on earth, so in the hotel's eyes, she doesn't exist anymore and that's why the attendant said she wasn't registered. They too forget their guests. That was my take on this, too. (the way people were moved around made me think of "The Prisoner") I was disappointed when she faded. I loved how she was helping Brian deal with understanding the place. A sane, caring person in a sea of egos. I found Bianca very confusing. At first I thought she was twins, or maybe schizophrenic, because she didn't remember bumping into Brian in the maze. didn't even recognize her own earring, but then later she was looking for it. I expected her to turn out to have been a suicide--that maybe the loss of memory was the result of her erradication of her own life. From a movie-making point of view, I think Bianca doesn't go back with Brian because it serves the plot better to have Valentin go back with him. But we wouldn't expect Brian to choose Valentin when he could take Bianca. When Bianca refused, I wasn't surprised to see that Valentin was the one he took back. It gives the movie a nice symmetry. And I did love the autograph set-up that was such an act of kindness. On a more frivolous note, I thought Colin looked good, although I still prefer his hair to be curly. But wavy is OK. And did they lighten/highlight his hair, or is it naturally that light? (I know it isn't naturally "Darcy-dark" but is it that light?) And there were lots of opportunities to see that wonderful loping walk. Finally, does anyone remember an interview from the P&P days, when Colin said something about not wanting to be terribly famous (so famous that you can't go out for a bog roll without it being in the press)? I wonder if his distrust of fame comes from doing this movie (does he ever think of Brian when he walks past lines of drooling fans?), or did his distrust of fame draw him to this project?

(Karen)I think she lost her fame on earth, so in the hotel's eyes, she doesn't exist anymore and that's why the attendant said she wasn't registered. They too forget their guests. So many of the artists that started to lose their fame went to the attic first, though. She was the only one that just suddenly and completely disappeared because of its apparent loss. (KateDF)I loved how she was helping Brian deal with understanding the place. A sane, caring person in a sea of egos. I missed her presense, too, which is why I wondered how and why it happened so completely. Could it be that society on Earth had become so cynical and self-absorbed (in 80's & 90's)that her psychological theories could not exist for them anymore? Valentin sought her advice, too, and she helped him start to treat Brian as an equal. I think that it is a lot of time that passes (maybe 15 to 20 years or so)for Brian Smith and Cesar Valentin because when they return to Earth there's a video game machine in the train station restaurant (you can hear video music in background)and Brian has a little bit of a surprised reaction to having the electronic glass doors open for him at the train station as he and Valentin walk through. When were those invented? Probably later than the late 60's. Yet time seems to stand still for them - no clocks, sundail doesn't move, and when the man asks Valentin what year it is in the lobby, the man is surprised that it's *already* 1966.

(Louise) I found CF's character to be the most "normal" in his behavior--perhaps intentionally, since he was the only person on the island who was famous only due to his connection to a famous person--by proxy, as it were. In a sense he is normal as Brian Smith and is caught up in the glitter of others' celebrity, but look at the pen name he has taken: Norman Eliot Trigorin, which even Valentin says is "fairly pretentious in its own right." [Norman Mailer, T.S. Eliot and Trigorin, the fictional famous writer in Chekhov's The Seagull. I'll give you more about the latter in a bit.] (Toyce) What was the name of the resort where it was filmed? Have no idea. Didn't see anything in the credits. To me, all that marble in the hotel's lobby looked more like a museum than a hotel. (Toyce) What do you think the reason is that Bianca won't go back? Is she too afraid that she won't be able to handle regaining her memory and would rather be in the vacuum? IMO she's very confused and may even be a little schizo, as seen in her warnings to Brian at the party not to believe them about returning to life (just like all the lying about being dead, everyone's a doctor, etc.). During the shag scene, she repeats, ahem, among other things, "this reminds me of someone...I'll find it." Then there's this strange look on her face as if she had remembered something, but afterward, returning from the window, she tells Brian that she "Can't remember." I think she did remember, but chose not to, just as she chose not to return to the living. Something back there was too painful for her and she wants it blotted out. (Lora) It's almost like Smith is taking Valentin on a journey of self discovery Absolutely, yet the admissions he makes do not show much growth as a human being. More about that later, as I get my thoughts in order. BTW, I never noticed the dates 1957-1966. I can't believe the filmmakers were this negligent. Surely, there must be some esoteric reason for this. *haa haa* (Lora) Is it possible that the whole movie, starting at the point he takes the gun, is in Smith's head? Remember he says to Valentin at the dock, I didn't say "I did," I said "suppose" (about killing him). I took this more as a part of the cat and mouse or head game that Brian is playing with Valentin. (Lora) And where was the movie shot? Is it supposed to be London (everyone speaks in British accents, except a reporter in 1966 and the two Valentin retropective participants in 1990)? From the credits, it might have been shot in Belgium and France. The present-day scenes don't look very London to me and I thought I caught a sign behind the Metro that looked like it might be a Flemish name. (Toyce) how long do they spend on the island? Judging from the modern appearance (hair and clothing) of the people at the end, I'd put it some 20+ years later. Plus Bruce Springsteen's Dancing in the Dark is in the jukebox and that was 1984. (Kate) I expected her to turn out to have been a suicide We can't rule that out. All we are told is that it was a car accident. It may not have been an accident. Fits with her wanting to blot out the past and not return as I mentioned before. (Kate) When Bianca refused, I wasn't surprised to see that Valentin was the one he took back. Besides, who else did he know? That old hag who was throwing herself at him? ;-) (Kate) On a more frivolous note...And there were lots of opportunities to see that wonderful loping walk. Not a frivolous thing to me. Why do you think it took me so long to get through this movie? Man, oh man, that overcoat was just swinging away. ;-) (Lora) She was the only one that just suddenly and completely disappeared because of its apparent loss. Or the basement. Who knows the rules of this place. ;-0 (Lora) Could it be that society on Earth had become so cynical and self-absorbed (in 80's & 90's)that her psychological theories could not exist for them anymore? Excellent thought and would require that she get the boot immediately. (Lora) Yet time seems to stand still for them--no clocks, sundial doesn't move, and when the man asks Valentin what year it is in the lobby, the man is surprised that it's *already* 1966. Time goes very quickly.

Lora: "I think that it is a lot of time that passes (maybe 15 to 20 years or so)for Brian Smith and Cesar Valentin because when they return to Earth there's a video game machine in the train station restaurant (you can hear video music in background)and Brian has a little bit of a surprised reaction to having the electronic glass doors open for him at the train station as he and Valentin walk through." You're absolutely right. I can't believe I missed this. The scenes at the railroad station did look like current day (1990ish?). If I remember right, video game craze was either in the late 70's or early 80's. (A couple of my brothers were obsessed, but I found the repetitiveness of early video games boring.) The idea that time passes quickly in the afterlife is pretty standard. It seemed like only a couple of days had passed on the island. I noticed that the pool was full at the beginning but was empty by the time CF and PO'T had their little confrontation on the high diving platform. Something else I thought of: this appears to be a German (or possibly Dutch) production. I wondered about the significance of the title--there was a film back in the '80's that also touched on the afterlife called "Wings of Desire", which I believe won awards at various film festivals (maybe even best foreign film Oscar?) It was directed by Wim Wenders and was about an angel in love with a circus performer. Very surreal also. I haven't seen it since then but wondered if the "wings" idea was a quote of some kind and how it related to the two films. Re the Bianca character: I think her refusal to admit that she was dead may have been related to a couple of things. When you pass from life to the afterlife, what determines how you perceive your existence? Ghosts are supposed to be people who don't know they are dead--hence they hang around the places they knew when they were alive--usually the place where they died. Someone has to convince them they are dead before they can travel to the "other side". Is this Bianca's problem? Is she "lost" (i.e., unaware of her "real" plane of existence) because her fame removed her from the place where she died and put her on the island? Another question I'd wondered about: who were all the people swimming and wailing around the island? Were they people who were semi-famous, and didn't quite make the list, so they were trying to get there by swimming? Were they people who had once been on the island, had been banished when their fame ran out, and were trying to get back? And what was the significance of the fact that the Russian poet who didn't want to be famous tried to get off the island by swimming, but didn't make it. Also, what is the significance of the fact that CF and PO'T arrived by boat (a la river Styx) and departed by superspeed train (if any)? One thing the existence on the island reminded me of was a play by Sartre called "No Exit" ("Huis Clos"). Unfortunately I haven't read it since college, but from what I remember hell is eternity in a room with no exit with someone you can't stand. Oh well, that's enough of my "stream of consciousness" for now. However, I'll leave you with my favorite from the film: when CF decides to leave the session with the "new age" guru, he says, "This is bulls**t. I'm off." You gotta love a man with that attitude.

(Lora)Brian has a little bit of a surprised reaction to having the electronic glass doors open for him at the train station as he and Valentin walk through. Yes! I noticed the reaction, but totally missed the significance. And contrast the Metro cars. The ones from 1966 didn't look as sleek as the ones at the end. I liked the use of the newspaper (Daily Mail) with the article about John Lennon saying that the Beatles were more popular than Jesus. (I remember that this statement raised quite a fuss) Lennon was killed by a fan. Would anyone know who Mark David Chapman was if he hadn't killed Lennon? I wonder if this "hint" was placed there to give the audience the expectation that Brian was an obsessed nut case/stalker?

Yet time seems to stand still for them--no clocks, sundial doesn't move, and when the man asks Valentin what year it is in the lobby, the man is surprised that it's *already* 1966. (Karen)Time goes very quickly. Karen, you are so right. The surrealism of the movie plays tricks with my head. Time on the island/in the afterlife does go very quickly. I guess it's just the sundial that makes time or the measurement of time stand still and non-existent ;-). (Karen)[Norman Mailer, T.S. Eliot and Trigorin, the fictional famous writer in Chekhov's The Seagull I loved the sound of his pen name (especially when CF said it). I caught Eliot, but not the others. Very interesting. Would love to hear about Trigorin reference. (Louise)I'll leave you with my favorite from the film: when CF decides to leave the session with the "new age" guru, he says, "This is bulls**t. I'm off." You gotta love a man with that attitude. That was great, Louise! All that humming and ear lobe touching was too funny and too embarrassing for ODB to be a part of ;-). But did you notice that the red-headed woman followed him out and then he came out of her room in the next scene with a giant smirk on his face? Of course then she slapped him *Ouch*. But I couldn't tell if they did something naughty in that room together or not? Why did he have that "cat that ate the canary" grin on his face? Then he goes and washes his face in the sink, something he does in a lot of his movies when he's upset. So what do you think happened in there ;-) ;-)? I didn't catch that grin until the second time I watched it.

A little housekeeping request regarding the format: Please put the person's name who you're quoting or responding to at the beginning in parens. If your own comment is there too, make sure it's labeled. Also, no quotation marks are necessary. All this will make my life easier for editing and everyone can follow who said what. Thanks, ladies. This is a going so very well. Come on, you old Colin hands, dust off that tape and get in here. Back later. ;-)

(Louise) "Wings of Desire"...It was directed by Wim Wenders and was about an angel in love with a circus performer. Very surreal also. I haven't seen it since then but wondered if the "wings" idea was a quote of some kind and how it related to the two films. The title does harken back to that film, plus the overcoat that Brian wears is reminiscent of the angel figures. However, the big difference between the Wenders classic and this one is that this one didn't put me to sleep! ;-D

Karen: However, the big difference between the Wenders classic and this one is that this one didn't put me to sleep! ;-D Wot? You mean the sight of Columbo in a raincoat did not have the same effect on you as sight of ODB? Can't say that I blame you. Now that I think of it, maybe that is the significance of the whole raincoat thing (which was repeated in "City of Angels" as standard issue for the well-dressed angel)--Columbo obviously had an enormous influence on Wenders and subsequent directors of angel movies.

(Karen)To me, all that marble in the hotel's lobby looked more like a museum than a hotel. Or a mausoleum. (Lora) Then he goes and washes his face in the sink, something he does in a lot of his movies when he's upset In his plays too....3 DOR, Act II. Very impressive ladies...I'm lurking here, but will soon finish film and jump in.

(Lora) Why is she there to talk to the guests and then it turns out she was never registered at all? (Karen), I think she lost her fame on earth, so in the hotel's eyes, she doesn't exist anymore and that's why the attendant said she wasn't registered. They too forget their guests. Agreed. However, the big difference between the Wenders classic and this one is that this one didn't put me to sleep! ;-D This will be the biggest of all the differences in our POV, Karen. Wim Wenders is untouchable and this film is so deep... put those BJD books away! Which film came first? Are you sure it was WoF? A great classic to do a compare/contrast with would be "Last Year at Marienbad" an Alain Resnais film. Come on, you old Colin hands, dust off that tape and get in here I don't have too much time now to contribute as I would like, but, you asked for it, Karen. Now let's get to the existencial question: Is he happy? (She asks as she dips into her bowl of cherries. ;-)

OK, the final scenes took place in Brussels. Check out the Metro map (M logo matches, plus they exited at De Brouckere as the sign was visible, and the little girls were speaking French. (Moon) Which film came first? Are you sure it was WoF? Oh no, Wings of Desire was first (1987), that is, after Last Year at Marienbad, but existentially speaking, does it really matter? ;-D

Took another look, paused and stared at the screen. It's 1937 not 1957, which would make Brian 29. Perfect. :-)

(Lora)Yet time seems to stand still for them--no clocks, sundial doesn't move, and when the man asks Valentin what year it is in the lobby, the man is surprised that it's *already* 1966. (Karen)Time goes very quickly. I've been thinking about this. Time goes very quickly for them on the island/in the afterlife, but it also stands still because they do not age! Which made me think about Brian Smith's plaque again. I thought what you thought, Karen, that 1937 would make Brian the more appropriate age of 29 (probably Colin's age when he made the movie since it was probably made in 1989). Then I put the tape back in and used the still button when they focus on his plaque... (Karen)Took another look, paused and stared at the screen. It's 1937 not 1957, which would make Brian 29. Perfect. :-) Lo and behold, if you use the still button on that shot, the number changes every other frame! It goes from 1957 to 1937 to 1957 to 1937 and so on! I even had my kids watch to make sure that my eyes were not playing tricks on me ;-). Try it if you have the still frame capability. So, maybe it is supposed to be a forshadowing or hint that Brian goes back to Earth (was he reborn in some way in 1957?)and when he does it would have to be in 1986 (video games and Dancing in the Dark help support this)which would keep him at 29 years old. That's why the plaque really appears to be both numbers (definitely playing tricks on your eyes when it runs at normal speed)!

(Lora)(probably Colin's age when he made the movie since it was probably made in 1989). Sorry, I'm wrong about the 1989 date. I just re-read Karen's #1841 post (under map) that the movie came out in 1987. The *video* came out in 1990 (I was looking on the package for a date--bad idea). So CF was only 27, but of course he can play any age ;-). But in the movie he needs to stay 29, so it must be 1986 when he returns to Earth (from the 1957 year of birth). Wonder what Valentin's plaque says? We don't get a look at it. We do see Einstein's, which is correct...I think.

I�ve only viewed WOF once this time. Have to agree that it is surreal. I don�t usually like this genre (popular with the Europeans, I know...but then I�m ..NOT).Can see why it was a hit in the FF circuit and no distributor would touch it.These stories are always difficult to decipher and I don�t think we ever will. I would not go to see this film except for ODB. Still, it is intriguing and the acting is pretty good. CV & IMDb says he filmed this in 1989...after Valmont.... �The Difficult Years� Lots of loose ends & symbolism all over the place. But at the end we can all agree in how much Valentin and Brian have changed. Brian is calmer, not as angry and in control. He saunters out of the train first, followed by a humbler -clothes -ruffled Valentine. I like the way he accepts Brian�s authorship of the book and asks him to sign it with his pseudonym. To reciprocate Brian asks the girls to seek Valentin�s autograph. Each one has achieved self -esteem. Now...as for Bianca..that takes another viewing... Who are the hoods in black who come storming out of the troop-carrier? The moaning ,drowning swimmers must be the people who are no longer famous and have been banished.

(Louise) Someone has to convince them they are dead before they can travel to the "other side". Is this Bianca's problem? Did Dr Frisch fail to give Bianca her orientation tour? ;-D I tend to believe--based on absolutely nothing mind you--that she was disturbed before she died and wanted to forget something that occurred around the time of her death, which may even have been connected with it. Aren't most causes of amnesia due to trauma...or a clunk on the head (another kind of trauma)? (Louise) And what was the significance of the fact that the Russian poet who didn't want to be famous tried to get off the island by swimming, but didn't make it. I think he just represented a "type," a revolutionary type who didn't want to be there on principle. ;-D He didn't make it because the people there had no ability to control their fates. (Louise) Sartre called "No Exit" ("Huis Clos")...from what I remember hell is eternity in a room with no exit with someone you can't stand. I love it! There's really quite a lot going on in this movie. Merrick (guy who asks about the year) is supposed to be Sartre, who also refused to accept his Nobel Prize for Lit. One of my favorite bits involves Merrick and Valentin at the pool. Their conversation is hysterical, especially this bit:Merrick: The simplicity of the actor's mind is fascinating. You must make a novel...a very short novel. Valentin: What would that be? Only 200 pages.(Kate) I liked the use of the newspaper (Daily Mail) with the article about John Lennon saying that the Beatles were more popular than Jesus. Actually, I thought that was pretty nifty myself. Not only did the headline establish the year, but it also spelled out the film's subject: our celebrity culture and fame. (Lora) But I couldn't tell if they did something naughty in that room together or not? I think she slapped him because he disrupted their meditation and was rude (true but rude). Nothing naughty in the way I think you mean. ;-D Love what she calls him to return the insult: "You're nothing, a common assassin." Little does she know he's far from that. (Evelyn) Still, it is intriguing and the acting is pretty good. That's funny, because the first time I saw WOF I thought the supporting cast was pathetic. But now, I'm either more tolerant of them or seeing things in a new light, i.e., that they're acting caricatured parts intentionally. (Evelyn) followed by a humbler-clothes-ruffled Valentine. Since you bring up clothes, I find it very amusing that Valentin's first request is for a change of clothes, but poor Brian wears the same outfit throughout. While watching the credits, I saw so many names for the wardrobe crew and had to laugh as I pictured 4 hangers allocated for Colin's wardrobe and racks and racks for PO'T. ;-D

(Karen) Aren't most causes of amnesia due to trauma...or a clunk on the head (another kind of trauma)? Didn't the waiter at the coffee shop at the end say she was in an automobile accident.That would account for the head injury. (Louise) Someone has to convince them they are dead before they can travel to the "other side". Is this Bianca's problem? If she has amenesia, then all she knows is the present. Why would she want to go back? She does not remember a life back there. It means nothing to her.

(Evelyn), The moaning ,drowning swimmers must be the people who are no longer famous and have been banished. This made me think of one of the rings of hell in Dante's Inferno. (Louise) Sartre called "No Exit" ("Huis Clos")...from what I remember hell is eternity in a room with no exit with someone you can't stand. Yes! And Sartre is the father of existentialism which brings me to my question: Is Brian happy? He finally gets the chance to be around Valentin all the time. Was that not an earthly pursuit?

(Moon)He finally gets the chance to be around Valentin all the time. Was that not an earthly pursuit? Yes, I think it was an Earthly pursuit in order to talk to him about stealing his manuscript, not because he was a fanatic fan. In the afterlife, he finally gets to confront him on the diving board at the now empty pool. He seems like he is waiting for him there, doesn't it? Also in this scene I love how Brian gets Valentin to save him (Brian) from falling by appealing to Valentin's vanity about his role in Julius Ceasar (even though Brian had never seen the film). Brian seems to be more in control (over Valentin) in the afterlife than he was on Earth and he seems to know that he has that power. When Brian is out on the patio area listening to those people talk, he is sitting at a table that has a surface covered with a layer of sand. He seems to be drawing the labyrinth in the sand with his finger like he is trying to figure it out. Then he wipes it away (with great Darcy-like aloofness). Is he trying to understand Bianca a little better here? The only thing Bianca does remember is how to do is get in and out of the labyrinth. No one else can do that without going through the hedges. I don't think Brian is happy on Earth until he returns there with Valentin and each of them has reached a new understanding about each other and about themselves.

Moon: Is Brian happy? He finally gets the chance to be around Valentin all the time. Do you really think this is what Brian is after? IMO what he really wanted was recognition in his own right--as a great biographer. During his stay at the island he realizes that being famous may not be what it's cracked up to be, especially after you're dead. In life, you may have nuts in every cheering crowd who want to kill you for their own, obscure, twisted reasons. In death, you're only as good as the memories of the fans--which are fickle and unreliable, at best. I think he also realizes that in the end it's more important to be remembered by those who love you rather than by a bunch of strangers. Maybe the latter is just my interpretation of the Bianca thing--what a tragedy that he loves her and will remember her forever and she'll forget him as soon as he's gone. Brian sees that even though he envied Valentin in his (Brian's) former life, he does not really want what Valentin had because it turned out to be such a pathetic thing in the end. O.K. that's all I have time for now. SPOILER ALERT: If you haven't seen MOTM, do not read beyond this point!!! I have a quick question for you "old-timers": is there a discussion somewhere in the archives about MOTM? If so, please tell me the approximate time frame I'm looking for. I have looked on this thread and did not see it. I just saw MOTM and am very interested in your interpretations of CF's character and his father's illness--were they supposed to be suffering from the same mental disorder, just in different stages, or were SW's actions just a "one-off", but one he couldn't live with? P.S. I hope it's O.K. for this to be here, I wasn't really sure where it belonged. This film really intrigued me, and I would like to find out more about it. Thanks.

(Lora)Also in this scene I love how Brian gets Valentin to save him (Brian) from falling by appealing to Valentin's vanity about his role in Julius Ceasar (even though Brian had never seen the film). Yes, very clever how he uses this to get saved, and then tweaks Valentin by admitting that he hadn't seen that film. Considering that Brian was an expert on Valentin, I wonder if he had, in fact seen it, but couldn't resist teasing Valentin. Interesting that this is also the film that is shown in the Valentin retrospective (after they return). Didn't the projectionist tell Brian that it was the last one, as in the last exisitng print of the film (or possibly the last print of any of Valentin's films)? If so, Valentin got out of "wherever" just in time to avoid becoming unfamous and getting dumped in the water with the other forgotten souls.

About MOTM: No, we haven't held a formal discussion of it here. *************** (Evelyn) If she has amenesia, then all she knows is the present. Why would she want to go back? She does not remember a life back there. It means nothing to her. She seems to want to know her past, trying to understand her dreams. But then again, she also confuses the present with a dream as on the staircase. (Moon) Is Brian happy? He finally gets the chance to be around Valentin all the time. (Louise) Do you really think this is what Brian is after? IMO what he really wanted was recognition in his own right--as a great biographer. What makes you think he's a biographer? My take on the situation is that he wrote a story (the manuscript) and probably sent it to Valentin (for some reason or other) and Valentin appropriated the story, renaming it his autobiography. I do agree with you , however, that Brian sought recognition and an acknowledgement from Valentin that what he did was wrong. Initially, Brian envied the celebrity lifestyle, was in awe of it, but he does finally see through it as Valentin's loss of fame takes its toll. At the end, Brian appears happy, but that kind of happiness was not what he sought. The one thing that I really like is that, once they arrive at the place, the tables are turned. At the beginning, Brian is pursuing Valentin. Later, Valentin pursues Brian, wanting to know who is and why he shot him. I love how amused Colin is with the reverse in roles, taking every opportunity to be enigmatic and to give him the slip. And what's with the toothpick chewing? ;-) I've also heard that both Colin and Marie Trintignant had body doubles. Naturally a stunt man hung from the diving platform in the long shot, but it's just not possible for the bedroom scene. The credits show stand-ins for the two, as is done for all movie leads. Someone has to stand there for the boring lighting tests, etc., but come on, how would that be possible?! No way.

(Karen)I've also heard that both Colin and Marie Trintignant had body doubles. I don't believe it, either. He certainly hasn't been shy in other movies! I wonder if the person who originally said this misunderstood the role of a stand-in? Or was misled by the fact that the credits show stand-ins for CF and MT, but not PO'T? (although he would probably have had one as well)

I can't tell you *how* many times I've watched that scene (purely in a technical capacity, mind you) and there's no way. Hmmm, maybe I should get the magnifying glass out to see if I can match up those moles on the back of his neck. Gosh, somebody's got to do the heavy lifting here. ;-)

If your eyes get too weary, Karen, and you need a "designated watcher," I'm willing to fill in! When I went to check on something in WOF, I popped the tape in and discovered taht I had left it "parked" on that scene. Can't remember why, but I think I might remember...

You know, my WOF tape is stopped in the same place. And my P&P2 tape is stopped on the pond scene, etc. I'm sure the fool who said that CF had a body double was just jealous because his girl friend did the same thing with her tape. I did think it strange that Marie T refused to be topless but was not opposed to being bottomless in that scene. At least they didn't try to cover the action with a sheet--just CF's back. By the way, am I the only one who loves the way CF says "So what's all this about a paraffin heater, hmmmmm?" It's so sexy. Jeez, the man could make vanilla pudding sound sexy. I also love it when he smiles smugly, which he does a lot in WOF. Sigh, I'm off to rewind to the good part again.

So what's everybody's second favorite scene ;-)) Mine is at the end when Valentin asks Brian to sign the book...and Brian gives him a big smile *sigh*

I enjoy this film because there's so much going on and has a lot of clever parody. Was it ever released to the screen? Some of the acting is strained and the interior sets are pretty cheesy but I think it's a pretty sharp statement on fame's fleet flight (sucker for alliteration). I'm trying to find Peter O'Toole's second volume to his autobiography to see if he ever mentions this film but I can't find the book in my local library. (Toyce)What do you think the reason is that Bianca won't go back? Is she too afraid that she won't be able to handle regaining her memory and would rather be in the vacuum. She doesn't want to have to face her demons again? I like what Kate said about her possibly being a suicide. What kind of a life will be waiting for her on real earth? (Karen) Something back there was too painful for her and she wants it blotted out. or She doesn't know she's dead so in her mind Brian can't be taking her back to the real world. She thinks she's already in it. She doesn't know where he thinks he's taking her. (Lora)And what's the symbolism of the dolphin earring? Good question. Surprised no one's taken you up on that yet. ;-) Has always bothered me too that Dr. Frisch was completely obliterated while others hung on. You'd think the slide to obscurity would be less dramatic. I guess there were all different level of dealing with lost fame. Perhaps it wasn't her loss of fame but her perception of life on the island that was dangerous to her existence there. Found the untouchables interesting too - Albert Einstein, for one. No fear of him losing his fame. He's even exempt from the game at the end. We don't see Lassie or the Lindbergh Baby there either. ;-) I noticed there's no artwork in the hotel. Even the lowliest Budget Motel has something on the walls. They don't perpetuate anyone's fame, do they.

I wonder who Dr. Frisch is IRL. I think all those people represent *someone* who has been famous.That architect who is surrounded with the model and places the swatika on top of one of the buildings..the Russian poet. I bet they are all identifiable. The dolphin earring...only one, and she wears it later.The waiter did say at the end that she died in an automobile accident. Perhaps it was self-inflicted. Her voice sure sounds like Edith Piaf.

(Evelyn) I think all those people represent *someone* who has been famous.That architect who is surrounded with the model and places the swatika on top of one of the buildings Albert Speer? Is that actress related to Jean-Louis Trintignant?

It is his daughter.

This discussion is great. I need more time now to get into it. Like the dolphin earring, will have to think about it.

(Louise)At least they didn't try to cover the action with a sheet--just CF's back. I think that they did cover some *parts* of ODB, however :-). I used my still button on this scene which allows me to go one frame at a time (just like on the dates on Brian's plaque ;-)) and you can see that CF has what looks like white bikini underwear on which are about the same color as the sheets. If you look at that scene one frame at a time you will definitely see them. And once you know when they appear you can even pick them up for a split second when the scene runs at regular speed. So maybe a body double wasn't necessary afterall ;-). Try it! (Heide) Has always bothered me too that Dr. Frisch was completely obliterated while others hung on. You'd think the slide to obscurity would be less dramatic. I guess there were all different level of dealing with lost fame. Upon another viewing of the scene when Dr. Frisch and Brian are walking and see the Lindbergh baby, he asks her where are the old chaps? (The Shakespeares, Gallileo's and Mozarts). She answers him with, who says there is only one island or hotel around here. So maybe she goes suddenly to *that* level of fame. I guess it's also possible for a guest to go in the totally *opposite* direction, to permanent fame (Brian and Valentin kept seeking her advice and wanted more even after she left). (Heide)Found the untouchables interesting too - Albert Einstein, for one. No fear of him losing his fame. He's even exempt from the game at the end. We don't see Lassie or the Lindbergh Baby there either. ;-) Except that Einstein does seem bothered by the gong from the ceremony when he comes out to steal some more chalk (and maybe an eraser). He still keeps at his formulas. Even Dr. Frisch said that she really missed her mice and rats, I guess to keep at her experiments since she said that she learned more from them than from people. They are all more afraid of oblivion than death (as she told Brian on their walk). BTW, was that Hemingway struggling up and jumping wildly from the platform into the pool? What is it that he doesn't want to lose? (Evelyn)The dolphin earring...only one, and she wears it later. There *is* only one and dolphins usually travel in pairs or schools/families. So she is without the pair. So maybe her lover died with her in a car crash, but he wasn't famous, so she is without him? Is she looking for him in the other men? She does seek Valentin and she and the dart thrower had something at one time. Brian seems to take his place for a while... (Evelyn) I think all those people represent *someone* who has been famous. Ironically, I was reading a review yesterday of the new movie, Bride of the Wind. The female lead is Alma Mahler, the wife of Gustav Mahler, and who was famous for being his muse and the muse of and lover to artist Oskar Kokoschka, architect Walter Gropius, and novelist Franz Werfel. She sounded a lot like the fictional muse in WOF (who is described similarly on stage)! Also why isn't Brian ever held in contempt for being a murderer? There's no reaction from the registrar or Dr. Frisch. And why, as a murderer, is he *rewarded* with winning the lottery and getting the grand prize (which is never repeated)? Also thought is was interesting that the only Americans in the afterlife were maybe the astronauts ;-).

(Lora)And what's the symbolism of the dolphin earring? (Heide)Good question. Surprised no one's taken you up on that yet. ;-) Heide, thanks for bringing it up again. I meant to include your statement above. I took a stab at it myself, but I think there must be a lot more to that earring. I look forward to more discussion about the earring and other things as well. Like you said, there is so much going on!

Re Bianca: a couple of things. She feels safe at the center of the labyrinth. What do we know about labyrinths? The only thing I could remember was the story about the minotaur. Didn't Ariadne help Theseus to kill the minotaur and provide a way out for him by unwinding a ball of yarn? I can't quite make the bridge from that tale to WOF. However, I looked up labyrinth on the internet and came up with the following: This is the classical or seventh circuit labyrinth. Seven circuits refers the seven paths that lead to the center or goal. This is an ancient design and is found in most cultures. It is sometimes dated back more than 4000 years. Also known as the Cretan Labyrinth it is associated with the myth of Theseus and the Minotaur. This design was found on Cretan coins. Labyrinths have most likely always been used in a spiritual manner. They can create a heightened awareness of the human condition and aid psychological and spiritual growth.To build a labyrinth is to create a sacred space. To walk a labyrinth is to imbue it with power and meaning. The more a labyrinth is used the more powerful it becomes as a symbol of transformation. The classical labyrinth has an association with Christianity. A cross is the starting point used to construct this labyrinth. The cross at the center can become the focus for meditation and the experience of the labyrinth. The classical labyrinth design is found in many churches in Europe. You'll notice that Brian Smith doesn't seem to be interested in taking the meaningful path into the labyrinth. He just wants to see Bianca as soon as possible, so he barges through the hedge instead (I'd always heard the phrase 'looked like he was dragged through a hedge backwards', but this was the first time I'd actually seen it). So Bianca is a seeker of the meaning of (her former) life and what her dreams can tell her about it. Brian, on the other hand, is more of a pragmatist. He goes after his goal, and is interested only in the best way to achieve it. He's not interested in the journey. As for the meaning of the dolphin earring, I also looked up dolphin in mythology: apparently it can be associated with birth (same root word as Delphi) and the god Apollo. I'm not sure what, if anything, this has to do with WOF, however. I'm just throwing things out to see if they ring any bells. I noticed that Bianca's hit song was called "L'Amour partira demain" and the flip side was "Tous les deux". As far as her relationships go (with Valentin one day and Brian the next), it would appear more like "L'Amour partira hier" in Bianca's case. She's searching for someone to help her regain her memory, her 'life'. She leaves Valentin because he only wants to talk about himself. She leaves Brian because he keeps trying to tell her what she doesn't want to hear--that she's not an amnesiac in a mental hospital, but a dead soul in the afterlife. I wish we knew if Bianca's character was supposed to represent a real person, or not. A lot of the other characters on the island are based on real people, so why not Bianca. Does anyone know about a French girl pop star of the '60's who died in an auto accident? It might make her character make more sense if we knew. I've got a feeling that we're missing quite a few things in this film because we're not familiar with the originals. I'll have to watch the film again to see if anything else pops out at me.

Hmmmm, need to get back in here, but Lora's comment about that famous woman in WOF reminding her of Alma Mahler Gropius Werfel reminded me of a very very funny song by Tom Lehrer many years ago about her. Too bad you can't hear it, but this is his intro (it was a live performance) and the lyrics which were to a waltz tempo song: Last December 13th, there appeared in the newspapers the juiciest, spiciest, raciest obituary that has ever been my pleasure to read. It was that of a lady name Alma Mahler Gropius Werfel who had, in her lifetime, managed to acquire as lovers practically all of the top creative men in central Europe, and, among these lovers, who were listed in the obituary, by the way, which was what made it so interesting, there were three whom she went so far as to marry. One of the leading composers of the day: Gustav Mahler, composer of Das Lied von der Erde and other light classics. One of the leading architects: Walter Gropius of the Bauhaus school of design. And one of the leading writers: Franz Werfel, author of the song of Bernadette and other masterpieces. It's people like that who make you realize how little you've accomplished. It is a sobering thought, for example, that when Mozart was my age he had been dead for two years. It seemed to me, I'm reading this obituary, that the story of Alma was the stuff of whic ballads should be made so here is one.The loveliest girl in Vienna Was Alma, the smartest as well. Once you picked her up on your antenna, You'd never be free of her spell. Her lovers were many and varied, From the day she began her -- beguine. There were three famous ones whom she married, And God knows how many between. Alma, tell us! All modern women are jealous. Which of your magical wands Got you Gustav and Walter and Franz? The first one she married was Mahler, Whose buddies all knew him as Gustav. And each time he saw her he'd holler: "Ach, that is the fraulein I moost have!" Their marriage, however, was murder. He'd scream to the heavens above, "I'm writing Das Lied von der Erde, And she only wants to make love!" Alma, tell us! All modern women are jealous. You should have a statue in bronze For bagging Gustav and Walter and Franz. While married to Gus, she met Gropius, And soon she was swinging with Walter. Gus died, and her tear drops were copious. She cried all the way to the altar. But he would work late at the Bauhaus, And only came home now and then. She said, "What am I running? A chow house? It's time to change parters again." Alma, tell us! All modern women are jealous. Though you didn't even use Ponds, You got Gustav and Walter and Franz. While married to Walt she'd met Werfel, And he too was caught in her net. He married her, but he was carefell, 'Cause Alma was no Bernadette. And that is the story of Alma, Who knew how to receive and to give. The body that reached her embalma' Was one that had known how to live. Alma, tell us! How can they help being jealous? Ducks always envy the swans Who get Gustav and Walter (you never did falter), With Gustav and Walter and Franz.I know some people feel that marriage as an institution is dying out, but I disagree and the point was driven home to me rather forcefully not long ago by a letter I received which said: "Darling, I love you and I cannot live without you. Marry me, or I will kill myself." Well, I was a little disturbed at that until I took another look at the envelope and saw that it was addressed to 'Occupant'. Speaking of love, one problem that recurs more and more frequently these days in books, and plays, and movies on, is the inability of people to communicate with the people they love. Husbands and wives who can't communicate; children who can't communicate with their parents, and so on. And the characters in these books, and plays, and so on, and in real life, I might add, spend hours bemoaning the fact that they can't communicate. I feel that if a person can't communicate the very least he can do is to shut up.

BTW, Alma died in 1964 so she's very likely the woman who inspired all those creative geniuses. ;-)

Hilarious. *wiping tears* "She said, "What am I running? A chow house? It's time to change partners again." What woman hasn't thought *that* one...

Karen! I can't believe you typed out that whole song! I love Tom Lehrer, and as soon as someone mentioned Alma, that song came to mind. Lehrer isn't as well known as he once was, so thank you for helping to keep him out of the water with the other formerly famous souls! I'll have to watch WOF again and try to see if I can recognize anyone specific. I did notice the astronauts. Since they were "in uniform," I wonder if they were supposed to be the ones who died in a pre-launch fire--can't remember how long ago that was. And was the red-haired woman supposed to remind the viewer of Rita Hayworth, either specifically as an individual, or as a "type?" Her hair and dress were Hayworth-ish. As for the dolphin earring, I haven't a clue what that represents. Louise, I like the labyrinth symbolism. Excellent point! Bianca is definitely trying to get something--probably self-knowledge--out of her experiences in the labyrinth. As you said, Brian isn't interested in the journey. He wasn't interested in the meditating/chanting experience, either.

I didn't type it out, but found it on a Tom Lehrer website. In fact, I wouldn't even be able to play the song as I only have the old LP and, of course, no turntable. ;-) I'm going to have to get the CD as am humming: "First you get down on your knees..." The other woman wouldn't be Rita Hayworth, as she hadn't died yet. (Louise) am I the only one who loves the way CF says "So what's all this about a paraffin heater, hmmmmm?" It's so sexy. Jeez, the man could make vanilla pudding sound sexy. I also love it when he smiles smugly, which he does a lot in WOF. No, you're not the only one. I thought his chewing on a toothpick was pretty damned sexy. ;-) He's quite smug every time Valentin catches up with him and tries to get him to answer. A little role reversal going on (the star chasing the fan??) and Brian is vastly amused at Valentin's expense. (Evelyn) So what's everybody's second favorite scene ;-)) LOL. Well, if I have to pick another one, it is right before the shag, in the labyrinth, when Brian is holding Bianca. Oh, I could just get lost in those arms. But I also like when he's yelling at Valentin on the diving platform. (Heide) Albert Einstein, for one....He's even exempt from the game at the end. Didn't see Bianca in line either. (Evelyn) Her voice sure sounds like Edith Piaf. It does? Not to me. She sounds like all the Euro pop singers, something which has never caught on in the US. (Lora) you can see that CF has what looks like white bikini underwear on which are about the same color as the sheets. Am shocked that our eagle-eyed compatriots have never noticed this before, as with that smidgen of blue showing in Femme Fatale and the illusive Nessie. I'm off to pop that tape back in the VCR shortly. (Lora) Also why isn't Brian ever held in contempt for being a murderer? How one gains fame doesn't appear to matter. It's one's degree of fame. Remember the people trying to amuse themselves outside, and the one lady asks how everyone died. One guy said he was a serial killer of women. The lady didn't look pleased, but nothing happened. Also, you had terrorist there as well. No one cared. (Lora) And why, as a murderer, is he *rewarded* with winning the lottery and getting the grand prize (which is never repeated)? He held the lucky number, so them's the rules. ;-) Loved the riot that ensues. (Lora) Also thought is was interesting that the only Americans in the afterlife were maybe the astronauts ;-). Why do we presume they were Americans? Was the flag patch visible? They could've been Soviet cosmonauts. I'm sure a number of them died in accidents. (Lousie) Labyrinths have most likely always been used in a spiritual manner. Great stuff on labyrinths. Brian doesn't want to go back to meet Bianca there either. It all fits with his pragmatic approach to things in contrast to Bianca's search for more spiritual meaning. Plus she does say that the center of the labyrinth is the only place she feels safe, i.e., a sacred space.

I found a reference that said that in some cultures, dolphins lead souls into the afterlife. I don't know if this was the reason for Bianca's earring, but I suppose it could be. Also, I don't think we've touched upon something that is a critical part of Brian Smith's experience on the island, which is when he asks Dr. Fritsch an important question: Dr. Fritsch, do you believe there is love after death . . .the love of a man for a woman? Her response is that of the pragmatic scientist: The only emotions I have observed here are jealousy, vanity and anger. Brian thinks he's falling in love with Bianca, but isn't sure about it and decides to ask Dr. Fritsch's opinion. When he sees her with Valentin, he is indeed angry and jealous. But later I think he realizes that to Valentin, Bianca was more of an "audience" than a lover. The more he knows about what makes Valentin tick, the more he forgives him for stealing his book. In the end, he tries to make amends for killing Valentin by paying the young girls to ask for autographs. Who is redeeming whom in this movie? Is Brian's purpose to teach Valentin a lesson about not taking his fans for granted? Is Valentin's purpose to teach Brian that all the fame in the world doesn't amount to much if you don't leave people who love you behind when you die? And what is Bianca's character supposed to be telling us: don't deny the truth in front of your face just because you're afraid to admit it? Or maybe it's that you should never turn down a free trip back to earth with a gorgeous guy unless you really are crazy. I don't know the answers to these questions, I'm just trying to figure this movie out.

(Louise) I don't know the answers to these questions, I'm just trying to figure this movie out. And you're doing a brilliant job of it! I love your find about the dolphin. Bianca keeps losing her earring, which prevents her from going to the afterlife. Dr. Fritsch, do you believe there is love after death . . .the love of a man for a woman?...The only emotions I have observed here are jealousy, vanity and anger. I've had that one marked down as well because her observation bothered me. On surface, it would appear correct, but how do you explain the gay couple? Right before the party, what they had looked like love to me. Brian may have been falling in love with Bianca, but I put that down to his not belonging in that place. He wasn't truly one of the famous people. But I would need my mice and rats to test that out. ;-)

Well done, Louise.I think you've hit on something here...but why only one dolphin earring? (Louise)Is Valentin's purpose to teach Brian that all the fame in the world doesn't amount to much if you don't leave people who love you behind when you die? Just a thought.... Is "fame" in this movie a symbolic term for immortality? Is "loving" on earth the only way we can be remembered after death?

(Karen)Loved the riot that ensues. Me, too ;-). (Lora) Also thought is was interesting that the only Americans in the afterlife were maybe the astronauts ;-). (Karen)Why do we presume they were Americans? Was the flag patch visible? They could've been Soviet cosmonauts. I didn't say they *were* Americans, remember I said *maybe* ;-). I couldn't make out a flag patch, but I did see three of them sitting together at the front table during the ceremony. The pre-launch fire that killed three American astronauts, Gus Grissom, Edward White, and Roger Chaffee, was in Jan. 1967, so that would work date-wise. (BTW, I also thought I might have even caught a glimpse of Eleanor Roosevelt as Brian leaves the ceremony to go look for Bianca, she died in 1962.) They could have been cosmonauts, I just don't know that history very well. I was just wondering if there were *any* Americans. (Louise) In the end, he tries to make amends for killing Valentin by paying the young girls to ask for autographs. I hadn't noticed that he paid them. I'll have to look again. I did, however, love what you said about Brian learning so much from Valentin about the price of fame and how ugly it could be. He seemed changed so much for the better when he returned to Earth and I couldn't put my finger on what was the catalyst. You wrote so clearly about Brian's observations of Valentin in the afterlife and how that taught him how fleeting fame could be. You explained his metamorphosis very well for me. I wish I could copy those comments from one of your first postings on the movie, but I fear I'll lose what's here. (I'll try it at my next posting ;-)). (Louise) And what is Bianca's character supposed to be telling us: don't deny the truth in front of your face just because you're afraid to admit it? Or maybe it's that you should never turn down a free trip back to earth with a gorgeous guy unless you really are crazy. I quite agree with you that she gave up a really grand opportunity there ;-)! One thing I have noticed about Bianca, though, are her attributes: everything is circular or almost a complete circle -- her records, her record player (have never seen one quite like that)& she carries it with her a lot, and her bed are all circular. The hair at the sides of her face and the dolphin earring are roundish but not complete circles--maybe representing the gaps in memory she has. Doesn't the circle represent something here? Unfortunately, everytime I have a theory about Bianca, I end up at a dead end just like in a labyrinth when one doesn't know the way ;-). My second favorite scenes are when Bianca says to Brian outside the elevator: You can look really mean, did you know that? (thought of what many said about Darcy--but didn't know the real man inside), and what Brian says to Bianca as he is about to go through the hedge into the heart of the labyrinth: I'm coming in! (and in he goes *heehee*, like the pond scene ;-))

Re Bianca: She has sleepy eyes and voice and is always talking about dreams. I think she represents some sort of dream-oriented psychotherapy. Re the labyrinth: the concrete sculpture behind Brian and Bianca has a bow and arrow on it. Maybe it belongs to cupid but it also reminds me of the bow and arrow that the woman uses to chose Brian to return to earth. This movie is sometimes disorienting because things happen for no other reason than the plot requires them to happen. Such as, the workers are all-knowing and all-seeing like when one walks into Valentin's room and straight over to Bianca hidden behind the wall. But then, when Valentin needs to know who Norman Eliot Trigorion is the desk clerk is totally frozen. I think Dr. Frisch disappears because she had furthered the plot as much as she could. I am enjoying watching the film for the art elements in it. Two of the outdoor scenes by the pool look surrealistic to me. I think one of Dali's melting clocks would fit right it. I don't know a lot about cubism but a couple of things remind of that kind of art. Has anyone else noticed the one table in the dining room that had more than a white tablecloth? It had some glasses and then, colorful shape things that didn't seem to belong. Also, did anyone notice the orange jello served to someone at the ceremony? I always thought this was an "art" film but I don't think all of them actually display art like this one.

(Lora) I didn't say they *were* Americans, remember I said *maybe* ;-) Actually, you're probably correct. Thinking logically, the Soviets never let on about their space failures, so how could their cosmonauts become famous? Doesn't the circle represent something here? A circle typically represents wholeness/unity, no beginning; no end.The circle is a universal symbol with extensive meaning. It represents the notions of totality, wholeness, original perfection, the Self, the infinite, eternity, timelessness, all cyclic movement, God ('God is a circle whose center is everywhere and whose circumference is nowhere' (Hermes Trismegistus). As the sun, it is masculine power; as the soul and as encircling waters, it is the feminine maternal principle. It implies an idea of movement, and symbolizes the cycle of time, the perpetual motion of everything that moves, the planets' journey around the sun (the circle of the zodiac), the great rhythm of the universe. The circle is also zero in our system of numbering, and symbolizes potential, or the embryo. It has a magical value as a protective agent, ... and indicates the end of the process of individuation, of striving towards a psychic wholeness and self-realization.BTW, I've found some references to the labyrinth being a key image from the Marienbad movie, so I've picked up the movie (not as easy as I thought) and am anxious to see how closely WOF follows. (Caribou) Such as, the workers are all-knowing and all-seeing Except when Brian slips out from the party and behind their backs up the grand stone staircase. Did he magically find a pair of crepe-soled shoes? ;-)

Hermes Trismegistus Now you are moving into alchemy too! This is my type of discussion. I regret that I don't have the time to get into it. :-( the labyrinth being a key image from the Marienbad movie, so I've picked up the movie (not as easy as I thought) and am anxious to see how closely WOF follows I am very impressed, Karen! You know how much I like that film. I had a little crush on Alain Robbe-Grillet, the writer, and imagine my surprise when he came to UCLA for a conference! I had a very long chat with him en francais.

(Karen)BTW, I've found some references to the labyrinth being a key image from the Marienbad movie, so I've picked up the movie (not as easy as I thought) and am anxious to see how closely WOF follows. I seem to remember from a film class I took in college something about concentric circles of time in the film, Last Year at Marienbad. How time is in the form of concentric circles, events fitting into each other which have the same center, but not following each other like in regular chronological time. In WOF, this seems to apply since people are not seen going from one place to another usually. The film goes from scene to scene without concern for chronological time, sometimes with characters wearing different clothes from the scene that you thought came before it (except for Brian who always wears the same clothes ;-)). Wish I could remember more or what concentric circles of time mean here. I'll try to think about it some more as I clean out all the cobwebs ;-).

(Louise)During his stay at the island he realizes that being famous may not be what it's cracked up to be, especially after you're dead. In life, you may have nuts in every cheering crowd who want to kill you for their own, obscure, twisted reasons. In death, you're only as good as the memories of the fans--which are fickle and unreliable, at best. I think he also realizes that in the end it's more important to be remembered by those who love you rather than by a bunch of strangers. (...) Brian sees that even though he envied Valentin in his (Brian's) former life, he does not really want what Valentin had because it turned out to be such a pathetic thing in the end. Thanks, Louise. Your summary above is what I was refering to in response # 1877 and what helped me understand Brian's transformation towards happiness and satisfaction at the end of the film.

...understand Brian's transformation towards happiness and satisfaction at the end of the film. I don't want to appear contentious here...but why do we think Brian was unhappy at the beginning? He was mad as hell at Valentin for pinching his manuscript... the manuscript Brian sent him for a film script. Who wouldn't be mad to find one's work encased in a bio? He takes revenge in an extreme form, mind you. Was Brian seeking fame at the beginning? I didn't see that. I do agree that he sees the liabilities of fame and accepts Valentin's apology.

Moon, I met Alain Robbe-Grillet also (and Michel Butor) at a conference on the Nouveau Roman. In the context of this discussion it is interesting to note that he wrote a novel entitled Le Labyrinthe (his best IMHO). BTW there is an interesting webpage on WOF at the Friends of Firth Roles Project website.

Perhaps you'd like to join this discussion, Lassie, as you appeared in the film. ;-)

(Lassie) BTW there is an interesting webpage on WOF at the Friends of Firth Roles Project website. I tried to access it, but it is no more. Can you pl. give us the URL where WOF is now living?

Evelyn: Was Brian seeking fame at the beginning? Fame for its' own sake? No. But he wanted the recognition and success as a writer that Valentin "pinched" from him--and being famous would just go with the territory. And yes, I do think that he wanted to have the money Valentin got from the book, as well as the kudos for a best-seller. Look at the way he behaves in his crummy hotel room. You can tell that he is angry that this is all he can afford, while Valentin stays at a luxury hotel across town. I think Brian wants everything that Valentin has--especially the "power" that his position gives him. Brian hates the fact that he is pushed away by the bored hotel clerk. He is a nobody as far as Valentin's protective circle is concerned--not worth V's time to even speak to. I think that given a choice between being rich, successful and famous or poor, a failure and unknown, Brian would choose the former. If Brian truly did not want fame, he would be like the Russian poet--writing for writing's sake, and not caring if he received recognition, a fancy hotel suite, etc. In other words, I think there's a reason the movie is called "Wings of Fame".

Yes, recognition is what Brian sought and that he's star struck. But I think his motivation is summed up in that answer he gives to Valentin about why he killed him, the nonsensical one. At the end, he says "a feeling that you exist." Brian didn't exist before, nor did Norman Eliot Trigorin. Do you think it coincidental that at the moment that Brian tells Valentin why he killed him it signals the beginning of Valentin's loss of fame? After having watched Last Year at Marienbad, I'm amazed by how much was used for WOF. You would really have to be knowledgeable of 1960s art films to be able to appreciate how much was used from this or from Bergman's The Seventh Seal (hooded figure represents Death). Would your average filmgoer realize that this film is a parody of those films? I don't think so. BTW, the frozen desk clerk is also from Marienbad where the extras were like statues or mannequins.

(Karen) ...Bergman's The Seventh Seal (hooded figure represents Death). I'm glad you made that connection. It was very obvious having recently seen the other movie, too. Also, during the final ceremony, there is a guy playing chess but they do not show his partner. And, somebody escapes death (oblivion) in that one,too - don't they? (Karen) Would your average filmgoer realize that this film is a parody of those films? I don't think so. That's part of the fun for art film lovers -- seeing something that everybody else misses. That's part of the fun of these film discussions -- it's makes me go beyond my initial reaction to the film--Do I like it? Do I not? (Karen) BTW, the frozen desk clerk is also from Marienbad... I retract my statement about it only serving the plot then. I'm glad to know they had a reason, though obscure, for doing what they did.

They ought to hand out Cliff Notes for this movie. Or at least warn you in the prologue: "Psst...rent Marienbad and The Seventh Seal before you see this one" Sheeesh. I'm finished.

Re: Colin always wearing the same clothes. I noticed Patrick Swayze did in Ghost, too. It encourages me to not wear anything I don't want to wear forever (or be as famous as Valentin so I can demand a change of clothes.;-)

Speaking of Brian's clothes, it was pointed out to me that his outfit is very un-1960s and that's true. The filmmakers went to great lengths to put the extras in very '60s clothes and hair during the opening scenes, but Brian is definitely not dressed for the right period.

Maybe Colin used his own clothes. ;-)

Caribou, I like your observation of the "artistic" set decoration - the pool set looking like something out of Dali and the out-of-place objects set on the dining room table. I intend on searching for more next time I watch the film. Yet there is also an absence of art - at least they type of art one would expect in a hotel to please the eye and soothe the senses. The rooms are all quite austere. I know you've gone past the absence of American famous people in this disucssion but thought I'd point out that besides the astronauts, there was also Ernest Hemingway and the Lindbergh child. Who is to say that some of the other actors portrayed Americans too but decided not to affect the accent. ;-) A favorite - Valentin: Brian would you get me a pair of dark glasses? Brian: (incredulous look)-Go and get them yourself. V: I'd rather not. I don't want to be recognized. (Brian's little laugh and shake of the head. Next scene, Valentin is wearing the glasses.)

(Heide)Next scene, Valentin is wearing the glasses. Yes, and isn't it sad at the restrospective, when almost nobody is there, he removes the glasses and breaks them. Getting the boot from the "island" didn't sink in as confirmation that his fame was gone. It took the reality of nobody going to his film retrospective to make him understand. And that makes Brian's gesture of getting the kids to ask for autographs more poignant. And Valentin certainly perks up at that. Doesn't take much to feed a big ego. And here's another observation about Bianca. Did anyone else notice the hospital-style screen in her room? Her furniture didn't look at all like what you'd see in a hospital, but the screen did (although I don't know that hospitals would use flowered fabric). Is this related somehow to her belief that she is in a hospital? Do the caretakers who know everything provide each individual with the props they need to maintain their activities/beliefs? Einstein had his chalkboard for working out equations (although he had to steal chalk to keep working).

(Kate) Do the caretakers who know everything provide each individual with the props they need to maintain their activities/beliefs? Also, the terrorists - they shouldn't let those people near the matches or explosives. The rock musicians would need fresh guitars for every jam session. The artist kept having enough canvases. The composer had a piano even in the attic and the poet had paper and pencil even in the basement. (Heide) Yet there is an absence of art. ...very austere. Right. So it makes me wonder why they put it where they do. For example, Valentin has a rather large abstract sculpture in his room which is later moved out into the hall when he is demoted. I did notice a huge stain glass window at the interior stairs when Brian first goes to his room. Another art connection is the staircase. When I stop to think about them I can't guess which go up and which go down from a distance. "Like an Escher drawing" (as ODB might say.) To summarize Dali connections: -the artist mentions Salvadore and Pablo (Picasso? - don't see any of his though) -the long shot of the pool both when Valentin wonders out and again when Brian is sitting throwing stones To summarize cubism connections that I noticed: -the misplaced items in the dining room -the long shot of the dining room itself -the orange jello triangle on the couples' table at the selection -the sundail and the fountain at the labyrinth -the hourglass - the two bases are square and the two chambers are triangular Any others? Has anyone already said how the ceremony was like The Gong Show? One night after watching the ceremony I caught a bit of The Late Show. Paul Shaffer used that exact same music when a blind-folded psychic failed to guess the name of a Rupurt Gee sandwich. :-) (Karen) Brian is definitely not dressed for the right period. Thanks for pointing this out. I was so occupied with how nice he looked that I had failed to notice. I also found it interesting to list the games and pasttimes people are doing: dress up (two people with one large red piece of fabric) darts roller skating (love that guy,reminds me of LA Story with Steve Martin) painting composing violin playing trap shooting tennis tag hide and seek Other games? I'm glad this movie is part of Colin's CV because it deals with death and the afterlife. He recently said that death is the one great inevitability we all face and facing it can only be good.

sorry to come to this discussion very late and having missed one of my fave films (ATA), and living in a part of the world where most of Colin's films are too esoteric for video shops to stock; I know you've moved on from FP but one of my favourite facts about it, that maybe you all know but I didn't spot from scroling through all your discussions above, is that Nick Hornby has a small cameo in it. Wish I could get WoF and join in

Rachael, welcome! I'm a newbie myself. WoF can be purchased, if you're interested, from Amazon.com for about $7.99 plus shipping. You can just click at the bottom of this page on the Amazon icon to get there. I want to rent Last Year at Marienbad to jog my memory about it. I also remember something about convoluted time being discussed regarding the movie. I believe labyrinths (and inner ears) can be described as convoluted, coiled, twisted, and winding as well. (Maybe that's why Brian fidgets with his ear with his finger after Biance whispers directions to the heart of the labyrinth in his ear ;-)).

(Lora) (Maybe that's why Brian fidgets with his ear with his finger after Bianca whispers directions to the heart of the labyrinth in this ear ;-)) LOL! We enjoy every little bit of his acting, don't we? Karen, what was the more about Trigorian and the journey of self discovery on which Smith takes Valentin? If you've already addressed those just point me to the posting number.

Re one of CF's mannerisms: do you think he wipes his mouth after drinking because he thinks that uptight people do this (have observed it in P&P2 and WOF), or do you think this is a "personal" mannerism? If the latter, it would be difficult for him to do a "got milk?" ad--they'd have to keep putting the "mustache" back on. It's rather endearing, really. To me, he looks almost like a little kid who's minding his p's and q's. You can just picture Darcy as a small, curly-haired boy, being told by his mum to be sure to wipe his mouth when eating or drinking.