Hey, Planeman, nice to see you here! Welcome! Why are Harleys so expensive? Because they're popular. As long as they can get away with selling them for that price, they'll continue to do so. See, I'm not one of these people that somehow believes a company owes it to us to reduce their profits. In my opinion a company that makes moves to reduce their profits is making moves to reduce their success and will eventually kill themselves for making such bad business decisions. But one good business decision, when demand is so hot, is to make more (which is what HD is gearing up to do). This means more sold, more demand fulfilled more quickly and eventually lower prices. And instead of the first plan of reducing prices, the end result is that more people end up on HDs, which is good for all concerned, right? When they force the prices down to MSRP you're going to see an even longer waiting list as the available models will sell even more quickly. And that's not good for anyone but the lucky few who, by coincidence, were in the dealership at the right time. As for whether or not you should get one, I can't say. I might consider one day owning a Sporty, but probably not. I prefer my low tech, vibey machines of the British make, thank you very much. It is all, of course, up to you.

But as for whether or not to get into riding again, go for it! It's one of the greatest, most pleasurable past times available to you. Take advantage of your freedom and do it!

Albert sunk $17k into that Valk. With the leathers, helmet, and new pipes.

BTW, does the Buell have the same extremely high demand as the factory H-Ds?

Rufus, Jon is correct. With HD, current demand is greater than supply, hence price inflation. Older bikes are often considered collectible, and also command high prices. If you can get a bike at or near MSRP without a wait, consider yourself lucky. As far as comparisons with "rice burners", the Harley experience is much more than buying a motorcycle. That part can't be explained, it must be experienced. Having owned both, I couldn't be happier than I am with my Harley. It's was a personal decision I have never regretted. Blob, in answer to your question about Buell--no. Buell sells bikes, but not with a waiting list. There is a lot more competition in the sportbike category, and Buell doesn't have the same loyalty factor that Harley-Davidson does, even though they use the HD motor. Life is just a series of choices--make the best ones for you!

Rufus, Welcome to the site. You have many questions regarding Harleys--mainly the prices of Harleys. Recently, Harley won a Supreme Court decision which allowed Harley (and automobile manufacturers) in some instances to prevent dealerships from selling vehicles over the MSRP. I have not seen or heard any news regarding the Harley MSRP since the court decision. It is hard to say what the future will bring, but I sure wouldn't pay much (if any) over MSRP. Harley prices are currently riding a wave of popularit that show little sign of ceasing. Guessing the future of the fickle American public is not an easy task. The older Harleys (Pre 1984) seem to be dropping in price. The Panheads (1948-1965) definately are dropping in price. The Evolution Harleys (1984 to present) are technologically superior to the previous models. The Evolution Harleys are far more reliable than the earlier models. Even the most loyal Harley enthusiast would have to admit that the Harley is not the most technologically advanced motorcycle. The Gold Wing would get the nod from almost everyone for best tech. The other Japanese manufacturers and BMW are also technologically superior. To prove it--take the following test. Look at your local newspapers want ads over a long period (a month or more). Make notations of how many times the word rebuilt is mentioned in relation to the brand. Then make notations of the mi eage of the bikes by brand. A pattern should develop. Harley manages to squeeze a paltry 54 horsepower out of their 1340 cc engine. The Japanese squeeze this out of 400cc engines. Technology is not the entire reason while people buy a motorcycle. Recheck the want ads and look at the bike prices. Harley is by far the motorcycle that depreciates the least. Harleys do maintain their resale value. The Harley mystique as a "outlaw" motorcycle drives the market. The image of the Harley owner as a greasy, tatooed, beer swilling slob is almost history. The new Harley image is that of a rich, urban, biker or RUB--posing next to his chromed out Softail. The Harley bikes have the most beautiful exhaust sound of them all. What do you want the bike for? If you live in an urban area and spend most of your time on short jaunts--the Harley (at a reasonable price) could be your best bet. If you plan to use the bike for many long trips, the Gold Wing could be the best bet. Good luck in whatever path you choose. Hoop

Welcome Planeman! I cannot quickly add to the good and true advice offered here concerning HD. I've been riding a while and not much with Harley, but if you take your time, look, feel, and think about each (type & make) you'll make a good decision. Budget probably comes 1st or 2nd, then go out and look at 'em. Harleys have never been dirt cheap, I think! And they sure do hold the value more than most over time. A motorcycle is an investment in personal happiness, don't rush!

Well said, both Hoop and Frank. As far as the technical stuff, the modern EVO engine is rock solid. While it may only produce modest horsepower in stock, EPA restricted configuration, a small investment ($500-700) in carb jetting, air cleaner and pipes the performance is increased dramatically. In fact, that is the one point that hasn't been mentioned here so far--modifing a bike to suit your individual needs. In the category of customizing, Harley wins hands down. There is no other MC with so many options for making an individual statement, both in terms of cosmetics and motor modifications. Like I said before, it's much more than a bike--it is an experience. I have found that experience to be very rewarding. There's no one in the world exactly like you! hehe

I got to admit; The Sound. Flying low on the interestate, nothing makes me smile much quicker than when a looney-looking guy on a hog of some kind pulls up, glances wild-eyed, and cracks away from me with that sound. Pretty definitive, more than a wailer on a UJM. 2nd place goes to the fist-pumps I get coming out of a toll booth and winding out the Duc, though the Laverda was king there..

The Duc is swimming in soul, not to mention performance. If I had a sport bike, that would be the one. Piles of smiles either way.

True, Hoop, the Japanese can get big twin horsepower out of a 400cc engine, but at much higher revs and with no where near the torque.

I rode a 1200 Sporty once--I can see the attraction of way down low HP. Up shift and get a kick in the pants--awesome!

I'm laughing; most of the Japanese stuff has "nothing" or next to it down low. I almost killed myself on a CB750SS the 1st time I rode one because of that. Talk about big bang on top! That's why twins are so satisfying, even my KZ400 felt like it had balls down lower. You shall learn Skywalker, of the power, the force, the torque where it belongs!

Yeah, speaking o' twins, I think 2 cylinders are all a bike needs. Want more power? Get a bike with more displacement. Ducati has proven that a 1000cc twin can dominate 750cc fours because thought it's down on HP a little, it's got easy, tractable power.

Yeah but along comes a bigger fish... I wish we just had twins too. Even the triples are overkill IMO.

Hoop: What do you want the bike for? If you live in an urban area and spend most of your time on short jaunts--the Harley (at a reasonable price) could be your best bet. If you plan to use the bike for many long trips, the Gold Wing could be the best bet. I would have thought that a small bike would be better for urban areas and short jaunts! If this isn't so, then please tell me what the Nighthawk 250 (or my TwinStar when I have enough time to get it to the mechanic) is good for? As for long distances, isn't that where the Electra-Glide is supposed to shine?

Sam, Riding short distances on a big Harley is a cultural phenomena (probably unique only to the U.S.). It is called "Cruising". The TwinStar or Nighthawk would be far more practical vehicles without a doubt. Lower cost, lower operating expenses, lower insurance costs are only a few of the benefits. U.S. citizens, with their incomes, have never been a practical people. The Nighthawks in the U.S. are somewhat relegated as entry level bikes. Being seen on an expensive (compared to the Nighthawk) bike is mo e socially acceptable in the U.S. It borders on snobishness. An adult with a good job over the age of 25 in the U.S. would probably be looked down upon if he bought a Nighthawk(other than a first time bike buyer). As far as touring long distances, the Electra-Glide is Harleys top touring model. IMHO the Gold Wing far surpasses the touring qualities of the Harley. I have never owned a Gold Wing and probably never will. The people that put over 20,000 miles per year on their motorcycles most often own a Gold Wing. The Gold Wing is smooth, powerful, low maintenance, and generally trouble free. I have never seen a Gold Wing broke down or on a trailer. The Kawasaki Voyager and BMW K1100LT model are both (IMHO) te hnologically superior to the Electra Glide. One need only look at the results of the Ironbutt competition to see for themselves. The E-Glide does shine in its own right. It is the flagship of the Harley Marque. The rumble of the V-twin leaves the rider with a feeling that can only be obtained on a Harley. It is the "intangible" aspect that keeps Harley showrooms busy. The E-Glide has snob appeal as well. It is Harleys top of the line bike. It is a more than adequate touring bike. Obviously the " Harley vs the rest of the bikes" has as many different opinions as the participants. Some of these opinions are downright comical. A BMW dealer--touting the values of the BMW Cruiser has an advertising slogan: "Sell your Harley while you still can!" Hoop

Planeman, why a harley, it's really hard to say? See I've had many brands and styles of bikes, never owned a Harley before and many of my riding friends are ready to put me in a mental hospital for even considering one! It just seems that the bikes "just can't be as bad" as all the non-harley riders say they are if so many people buy them! I can remember when riders thought you were nuts to buy a DUCATI, they where just a pain in the ass to own, adjust and where so limited in their nature. Remember that many of today's riders stared on CHEAP Universal Japanese Motorcycles ie: STANDARDS. This style of bike could at a whim be a cafe racer, tourer, ect. and we all got used to Harley's being for the "Hells Angels" types so we all disliked them and made fun of the "Chopper" style. So we started making fun of their machines, the old Pan and Shovels leaked oil and started hard next to the Japanese Standards so we deemed ourselves as "smarter and more knowledgeable next to our social deviant harley riders. You know the EVO Harley is a damn good bike and with proper care and no abuse can last a l ng time and doesn't require anymore maintaince than a old R-series BMW. People wax romanticly at old Triumphs and BSA's but they "LEAKED" as bad as any Harley and were maintinance nightmare. So the only problem I see with Harley is the "extra dealer profit" added to the MSRP that makes getting into H-D much harder than it should be, now that they are increasing production over the next years with a goal of 200,000 units by 2003. A harley will never be a japanese sport bike, only a BUELL kinda comes close nd even though the Buell is a part of the Harley family, it's still a outsider. If you want a Harley then do a look around some dealers will sell at MSRP, my local dealer has "no waiting list" but charges a 8.5% dealer markup and tell's you this right to your face so you know. Hopefull in 1998 Harley will announcee that all dealer's must sell at MSRP or lose there dealership, then there'd be no reason NOT to buy a Harley! Tailwinds, BJ

though the Buell is a part of the Harley family, it's still a outsider. I've said it a million times--you wanna be an outsider? Buy Brit, Italian, German or even Japanese. You wanna fit in? Buy a Harley. Over half the bikes I see on the roads of Colorado (atleast where I live) are Harleys. Hopefull in 1998 Harley will announcee that all dealer's must sell at MSRP or lose there dealership, then there'd be no reason NOT to buy a Harley! You're forgetting one part of the old "supply/demand" principal, BJ. Everyone and their dogs want Harleys now, right? Why don't they all get them? Because, for many, they're too expensive, so the number of Harleys sold is reduced, therefore making it easier to buy a Harley. If the price goes down a few more people who wanted one will be able to afford one. Sounds fine so far, but there won't be any extra Harleys available to fill the extra demand and places that didn't have waiting lists will have them and those that already have 3 year waiting lists will go to 4 or 5. Who'll get the Harleys at the reduced price? Either those who've been on a waiting list for years or those who get lucky and happen to walk into the dealer when they happen to have one--pure luck. Alot of people gripe about the free market system, but I think it works pretty well. How else are you supposed to decide who gets one of the limited supply of Harleys? Whether or not your brother in law is an HD dealer? Whether or not you got lucky and walked into the dealer at the right time? No, I think it's better to have a shorter waiting list and the ability to get one if you really want it--if you save up the money. Sure, it may not be considered "fair" to the poor guy, but atleast it's possibl to buy one, no matter who you are.

Oh yeah, another problem with forcing MSRP. Why is it fair for the dealer to make a reduced profit on a $14,000 motorcycle when the buyer will have it in the paper for $18,000 the next day? The scammer will make a big profit, and the dealer (who has all the normal dealer expenses) will make less. Is that fair? The only way to reduce the prices on Harleys is to increase production. End of story. Otherwise there will be too many ways to take advantage and aquiring one will be even more difficult. HD is working on it, but it'll take some time. See, even if it means a slightly smaller margin, HD wants to see more bikes. If they're making $5000 per unit now and selling 100,000 then that's $500,000,000 profit per year. But if they make $4000 per unit and sell 200,000 then that's $800,000,000 profit. And HD, like any honest company, wants to make as much money as possible. So don't worry--those silly rumors about trying to keep production low and prices up just aren't true.

Jon, well see from what I read in MO, Harley wants to use the "forced MSRP" to show it's customers that it's looking out for them. A nice propaganda move to be sure, the dealers will just add it to "dealer prep and freight" costs or some other pure BS!! Even H-D says that by 2003, you should be able to go into a Harley dealership and buy your bike off the showroom floor. So I don't worry about the "low production" rumors, infact Harley was smart, if in 1984 they'd have brought up killer production numbers of the new EVO, it could have "bombed" and forced the company to shut down forever! It's just that if I could have bought the bike for MSRP, I could have got a 1200 model sportster instead of the 883, yes I know I can put a "kit" in a 883 but you see I trust" the Harley folks 1200 over one kitted out by my local dealership!! No the 883 will remain stock but carb/airfilter, SE slip-on's, braded brake lines, fork brace and a quarter fairing should make the bike fun to ride, then Metzelers after the stock Dunlops wear out. That's why I like the Harley Sportster, I can bulid it up to what I want it to look like! Tailwinds, BJ

If Harley produces a gazillion bikes in a production year--rest assured--they will never lower their prices. Any Harley executive that suggested lowering their prices because the production costs (economy of scale) are lower would certainly be seeking employment elsewhere. Harley is trying to keep a lid on the MSRP because it knows that the premium prices now being paid will never last. It might be 1 year--it might be 5 years--maybe even 10 years--but eventually the demand will drop off. An economic r cession will be the most likely cause of a drop in demand. Harley knows that the people that bought the $25,000 Road Kings will eventually want to trade them in on new bikes. Harley is looking at the long haul. Imagine its the year 2004. You bought a new Road King in 1998 for 25K. You now want to trade it in on a new $20,000 (realistically priced) bike. The dealership tells you your bike and $10,000 for the new bike. Think the person that paid big bucks for the Road King will be pissed off--you bet he will be. Harley is looking out for itself. Personally, I think Harley is doing a disservice to its long term economic health by upping the production. Think about it--200,000 bikes produced every year with very few destroyed (as in cars) will eventually result in a flooded market. Thats my opinion! Hoop

Any Harley executive that suggested lowering their prices because the production costs (economy of scale) are lower would certainly be seeking employment elsewhere. Some people think that executives are unaware of or have the power to ignore economic realities. This is not the case. An exec's job is to make more money for HD. It's A, unhealthy to try to continue making bikes/money at the current rate--in business you're either growing or dying. B, the best way to make more money is to make more bikes. The math I posted before remains true. Even if they make a little less per unit, as long as they're making more bikes they will be making more money, which is exactly what everyone at HD (rightfully) wants.

MORE MONEY, MORE MONEY, MORE MONEY TO BAD THAT THIS IS THE WAY PEOPLE LOOK AT THINGS GUESS WWHAT THEY CAN KEEP IT AND THEIR BIKES

Jon, HD has the most interesting market strategy that I think I have ever seen. They don't play to a tough audience, who knows what they want in a motorcycle. They just make something that everybody wants, and makes sure it remains popular by whatever means. Why do you think HOG exists? How about the relationship between the HD motorcycle, American flag, and the American Eagle? I guess I don't like them making money off the naivete of the people who don't know any better than to buy into a fad. I have a passion for my AMF Harley shovelhead, but don't care a whit for the company that made it. I understand capitalism...I guess I feel like it pisses me off that HD is being a HOG about it. Ed

I guess I don't like them making money off the naivete of the people who don't know any better than to buy into a fad. I can't blame them. If they're making a good product and people want it, you can't hold it against them. HD wouldn't be a fad, however, if the quality of the machines hadn't improved drastically over the past 15 years. The fad would never have come about under AMF, no matter how hard they marketed the machines. I don't think HD is being too bad. Probably the "greediest" people involved are the dealers, but I understand. You can't sell a bike at MSRP because it'll end up in the newspaper a week later with a $4,000 mark up. But HD is making pretty good bikes as quickly as they can and taking measures to increase production. I'd say that's about all anyone can ask.

To the Flower Child: More Money is the sole puropse of having a business. We want Harleys, they want money. The organizition of the business is the compromised worked out so that both sides can get what they want to a satisfactory level. I will probably never be able to afford a Harley (and if I did, I'd probably buy a van or pickup truck instead!), but there are a few in the lineup I will continue to dream of. Any manufactured item you have (even yer John Lennon albums) was made by a company that wants...More Money.

I have made the grammatical error that I usually ridicule when I see. The above should read: "I will probably never be able to afford a Harley (and if I were, I'd probably buy a..." Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa!

Thanks guys - you've been great! Here is what I have gleaned from the conversation. 1. There is a "fad" aspect with the demand for Harleys probably based upon the "Bad ass" image from the past (I surmised this early on). 2. Demand has outstripped production, creating a premium over MSRP, the premium now required by the dealer or someone sharp enough to get a bike at MSRP and re-sell it at the inflated market price. 3. Harley plans to increase production as soon a possible to 200,000 units / year (I wonder what the 1997 production run is?). Harley also intends to force dealers to sell at MSRP in 1998. 4. The rules of economics dictate as demand is satisfied, prices will come down. 5. This tells me If I want a Harley, I would be wise to find a dealer somewhere that will sell now at MSRP or purchase just as the dealers are forced to sell at MSRP (if this actually happens)and carefully watch the used prices to see if the fad is declining or the increased production is affecting the used price of the model I have purchased, selling at the appropriate time to avoid a loss. This is a mercenary approach, however I get mercenary with a $15,000 to $18,000 investment. 6. Let supply and demand take care of the pricing. Anyone who is sharp enough to buy low and sell high to another who is WILLING to pay the price is O.K. by me. Careful buying, careful selling - this is why I asked the question "Why a Harley?". I now have a better picture of how to place my money. Thanks and good riding. P.S. I've posted a new topic I need help with - "In over my head?"

Right now they're just a hair over 100,000 units per year. I agree about your 6th point, Planeman, but to force the dealers to sell the bikes at MSRP thus allowing the first purchaser to jack up the prices and turn around and sell it is ludicrous. They might as well let the dealer have the profit, since someone is going to get it.

Actually, production for 1997 exceeded well over 130,000 units. As far as dealers and MSRP, I disagree with Jon. While there may be some short-term profit gains for dealerships selling at premium, there is long-run damage to customer relations. Buying a bike in the paper at a premium doesn't generate anger at the company. The company cannot be responsible for what private citizens do. However, premium pricing at dealerships creates bad blood, and discourages many potential HD buyers from getting in--permanently. Selling at a competitive price, even if it means pu ting people on a waiting list is perceived as being "just". However, tacking on big premiums is perceived as dishonest, market forces notwithstanding. This is especially true in light of the increased availability of lower cost alternatives from Japanese manufacturers and others, like Polaris. Price-gouging also discourages the long term financial relationship between buyers and the Motor Company--which is where the real money is. Higher production and fair pricing is critical to HD's "future" success and they know it. If I have to pay you now, you may not see me later

Buying a bike in the paper at a premium doesn't generate anger at the company. The company cannot be responsible for what private citizens do. True, but don't you think you're going to end up with even higher mark ups than what the dealer would charge? It would seem that this extra step would be inflationary. However, premium pricing at dealerships creates bad blood, and discourages many potential HD buyers from getting in--permanently. Selling at a competitive price, even if it means putting people on a waiting list is perceived as being "just". Well, I can't help it if people don't understand the basics of supply, demand and the free market system. I expect the dealer to charge as much as they can get away with. The dealer doesn't owe me anything. Why should he charge less? To do me a favor? And if the waiting list gets longer, is it doing me any good? Expecting a dealer to hand over profits to shysters who only want to buy the bikes and resell them (and don't care about motorcycling or Harley Davidsons) is unjust, in my opinion.

Hmm. I didn't realize how fast production was increasing. I read a figure somewhere that said something like 107,000 units, but it may have been a '95 or '96 number.

Rufus, Go out and buy whatever you WANT and your pocket can take.... That is the idea behind Motorcycling.... I bet if you asked everyone in this room there has probably been many of us who have had years where there where 2,3,4, or more bikes in the garage at one time... (Guilty of that myself hehehe) Why? Well because we WANTED to!! I have a bike that was affordable and dependable, yet I still break out the want ads every weekend just to see what's in there.... The day will come when the right bike (R ad 1100 Spectre) at the right price will show up and I'll have 2. Eventually it will happen again, (Read Harley basket case) and I will have 3. The day will then come that they start getting ridden less and I sell or trade and the cycle starts all over again.... My wife calls me an overindulgent child, I say YOU BET!!...hehehe Shane

I expect the dealer to charge as much as they can get away with. The dealer doesn't owe me anything. Why should he charge less? To do me a favor? No, to do himself a favor by keeping your business over the long haul. I have spent a "premium" worth since I bought the bike on additional merchandise and I will spend much more over the coming years. It depends on where your focus is--today or tomorrow. The existing profit margin on HD bikes is good. The gougers are greedy and near-sighted. And if the waiting list gets longer, is it doing me any good? Depends on what you value more--time or money. Most folks I talk to feel that waiting is better than being pinched, which they strongly view as unjust. Expecting a dealer to hand over profits to shysters who only want to buy the bikes and resell them (and don't care about motorcycling or Harley Davidsons) is unjust, in my opinion. The gouging dealer is also a shyster--hiding behind a franchise sign! IMO, if everyone has an equal opportunity to get on the list, the list becomes the great equalizer. It's fair and allows those without the deep pockets in the game. It gives the buyer the option--time at the dealership, or money on the street without ruining the company-purchaser relationship. In reality, the marketplace offers both types of dealership operations. Some dealers markup, some do the list. MSRP dealers have ways of ferreting out many of the jerk bike flippers. One way is a hefty deposit to get on the list. They also run phone number matches from the want ads against their customer sales lists. If you are found out, I can tell you that you are sunk at that dealership and any other closeby dealership for any future bikes. IMHO, the dealerships that care for their customers and foster the long-term relationship will be around when supply and demand find equilibrium at MSRP prices. And the gougers? They'll be as dry as the desert on a sunny afternoon. He ain't heavy, he's my dealer!

Jon, if H-D get's the production levels up to where"you can buy your bike off the showroom floor", then WHY would you pay some greedy shmoe who buys a bike for "profit turn around" purposes. Those jerks would be "put out of business", it's because of the "lower production rates" and "high buyer demand" that those creeps can do this in the first place. If my local dealership has the bike "I want" in stock at MSRP, then I'd be "NUTS" for paying a "huge markup" to some rip-off artist! Most Jap/Euro dealerships sell at MSRP and Brad is very right that given a "good deal" I'd be more willing to "spend the bucks at my dealer" for accessiories and service. See I'd really prefer that "stock" 1200 Sportster over the 883 as "to be honest" I don't trust my local dealer to "convert" the 883 to a 1200 as I trust Harley-Davidson, to "build it right". On the Sportster mail digest list, there have been many reports of "base gasket leaking problems" on the converted or kitted 883 to go to 1200cc's. Due to my local dealers mark up (ie: 8.5% over MSRP) and the outrageous $700.00 for freight and dealer prep, it put the 1200 Sporster up to $9,300.00 out the door costs and the 1200S model (my favorite) close to $11,000 out the door and a bike that MSRP's at $8395.00! If Harley-Davidson "forced" the MSRP option, I might have been able to still get the 1200cc sporty even with JO deciding to "switch" from a Savage to a Intruder. Now, having to look at the "COSTS" of bring a 883 Sporty up to par (performance wise) with the 800cc-1100cc Jap cruisers and the extra markup, Iam really shying away from buying a Harley-Davidson. Tailwinds, BJ

Good points BJ, and I sympathize. I hope someday you get a chance to buy that Harley of your dreams. In response to the original question, "Why a Harley" I found this quote recently which I think says something about the intangibles of Harley ownership. In his new book Pilgrimage on a Steel Ride author Gary Paulsen said the following: "There is something fundamentally American about a Harley. The way they look and sound, the size and mass of them, the care (now, if not so much in the past) taken in their manufacture mixes the feeling of the Wright brothers with Barney Oldfield and Eddie Rickenbacker and leather helmets and goggles and chaps into a big ball of empathy that is almost overwhelming...The feeling of the bike, the sexuality combined with the patriotic and aesthetic mystique, makes a brew so heady that it becomes almost n rcotic. Riding a Harley is coursing, like a wolf on the run, hunting fresh territory to mark as his own. To seek. Not to find, not to end, but always to seek a beginning." I know they say you can't explain it, but I think that comes pretty close! No other experience like it in the world.

Okay, I can buy that one Brad.... It's a whole lot better than the "Cause it's a HARLEY" explanation that you hear so often today. Once I re-read it though I realized I could say that a lot of bikes I have ridden have made me feel that way...... They didn't have to be Harley's.... Shane

Hey Brad that was a neat verbalization of the "mystique"! Is the authir American or British? I've read british accounts that reflect similar feelings. BJ, sounds like you have a real gouger dealer there. the setup charges are real BS. But they're in every brand, a Honda/Suzi and Kaw/Suzi dealer here does the same when he can. I say again, when you decide on which bike first, it's better to then hunt for which dealer; I've found the best Guzzi guy I can go to is in PA, not the one 15 min. north or 1 1/2 hours west. The gouger grabs the squids,the dopes, and the clueless RUB.

Shane, I'm not saying the feeling is exclusive to Harley, just pervasive. I think that virtually all Harley riders enjoy that "narcotic" sensation every time they hit their saddle! That sensation is something magical, and it seems to bond the riders and the company like nothing else I have ever seen. Frank, Mr. Paulsen is from New Mexico. I plan to buy the book, and I'll post a review when I finish. You still haven't read Pierson's book have ya? Shame, shame, everyone knows your name! Talk is not cheap--it's 21 bucks! hehe

if H-D get's the production levels up to where"you can buy your bike off the showroom floor", then WHY would you pay some greedy shmoe who buys a bike for "profit turn around" purposes. If you remember I said the exact same thing earlier. The only way to make it easy and cheaper to get a Harley is for production to go up. Do you think they'll have production up to 200,000 units next year? If they lower the prices before the production goes up, shysters will take advantage. Heck, if you had a guaranteed profit of $5000 for a week's worth of work, would you do it? No, probably not, but many would.

f my local dealership has the bike "I want" in stock at MSRP, then I'd be "NUTS" for paying a "huge markup" to some rip-off artist! Most Jap/Euro dealerships sell at MSRP and Brad is very right that given a "good deal" I'd be more willing to "spend the bucks at my dealer" for accessiories and service. I agree. But if there are 110,000 Harleys to go around, and 300,000 people want them, where is your dealer going to get a bike? If they force prices down, there will be more gouging by "rip-off artists" (it happens even now, as much as the dealers charge, can you imagine if HD increased the margin for these shysters even more?) Why do the other dealers have bikes in stock and at MSRP? Because the supply is close to the demand. BMW and Honda and Suzuki, etc., have the capability to produce as many bikes as are wanted, meaning the prices stay low and availability stays up. The problem with "price fixing" is that you can't take any part of the equation out. It's not some "magic hand" to come down and make everything nice for the consumer. If supply is much less than demand, one of two things will happen--price will go up and availabilty will remain about the same, or the price will remain the same but no one (except the lucky few) will be able to get a bike. The whole reason you're able to consider the Sporty is because of its markup. We wouldn't be having this conversation now if the bike was $1000 cheaper because it would have already been sold.

They charged me $300 setup for the Tracker, but they were honest (about one thing, anyway). They had a sign that said "this represents extra profit to the dealer for setup, cleaning, inspection, etc." The reason it's less for a car is because there are more models and dealers to chose from--more competition. If the Ford dealer charges $300 and the Chevy dealer charges $800, where are you going to go? But even in this big old town, there is basically one bike dealer, so he'll get away with what he wants. But we all work for a living and try to make money. I'm not going to hold this against him. Besides, if I don't like how he treats me, I can always drive down I-25 to Colorado Springs.

Or toss a Molotov through his window! (You can tell I'm back in Jamaica, can't you?)

You know what they say--there's no problem so big that you can't fix it with violence!

Jon, your unbridled laissez-faire argument is interesting, but not terribly business savvy IMHO. Certainly most of the dealerships in my area have not embraced your position. Why? Because, the number of customers willing to cough up a premium is comparitively small, and even if someone bought the bike at premium, they usually go to a "more honest" MSRP dealer for accessories, parts, and service. A reputation is a terrible thing to waste. The customer perception of a premium dealer is "thief" like it or not. Turns out that most folks would rather wait a year or 18 months for a fair deal than pay a gouging dealer a big margin. The gougers always have bikes on the floor and must prey on the few pay-to-play customers to stay alive. When customers are treated right (as the customer perceives it), they come back again and again. Smart dealerships (and businesses in general) know that ripoffs today won't feed the bulldog tomorrow. BTW, MSRP dealerships are not as stupid as you think. They have lots of ways of screening people and keeping bikes out of the hands of profiteers, such as steep deposits, zip code restrictions, long lines, and short-term right of first refusal contracts--not what the shysters want. They also have ways of finding out about those who abuse the system and black-listing them. The truth is that most higher priced bikes in the paper are either heavily modified, or sold out of legitimate need/desire. Of course, if the owner can get a high price, then they usually will--so what. But, IMHO, the private conspiracy stuff you lament is not nearly as wide-spread or insidious as the organized ripoffs by unscrupulous dealers. It's a HOG-eat-dog world out there!

Jon, ya I see your points, the old "if yer gona play, your gona have to pay" saying. You have a strong point, as my local Harley dealer has "bikes on the floor" for sale and the Englewood, CO. dealer has "no bikes" on his floor because he "pre-sell's" them and the Colorado Springs dealer won't do that with the majority of his stock. Brad, the sporster is "not totally" out of the question as I once stated, it's just gona cut me close to the bone and if it was a MSRP it would make the deal much easier! When it comes to custom/cruiser style machines, IMHO H-D has the "look" down pat. As far a requiring more maintance, I figure it's like owning my "old style" R-series BMW's, something minor was always being replaced and it seemed to require a "lot of factory required maintance", after all BMW has a level 1 inspection at 4000 miles and t en a level 2 (much more expensive) at 8000 miles intervals. The Japanese make the less maintance intensive bikes but the cruisers seem to all have a "certain cookie cutter style" with the 60's style Intruder being the best IMNHO. Harley's have a personal appeal to me so now that I understand the economics better I will see if my economics can come up to purchase a Harley! Tailwinds, BJ

I hear ya BJ. Listen, if you really want an HD, consider holding off on accessories, waiting a bit longer to save more $$, or buying a used one. Sportster prices are more competitive on the used market because there are so many out there. Many have low miles because the owners are moving up to a Big Twin. If I hear of any "steal deals" I'll let ya know. I know the idea of waiting to buy a new bike is a total drag, but the satisfaction of owning the bike you really want usually makes it worthwhile. As far as accessories, there are tons of deals out there on new and used seats, pipes, etc. Shop around. I would not let that make or break your deal. BTW, if you opt for a 1200 conversion ($450 kit) on an 883, just make sure the mechanic replaces the base gaskets with copper ones. That should eliminate any leak situation. There is a season for every purpose under Heaven

Whoa. Have we started talking about government controls of Harley Davidson prices? All this talk of "dealers should charge MSRP" and "HD should force dealers to charge MSRP" could exist in a completely unbridled laissez-faire. I think that HD and the dealers should be allowed to handle their distribution however they see fit. But I've got to get to work. More on this later! :-)

I think that HD and the dealers should be allowed to handle their distribution however they see fit. They do Jon--government has nothing to do with it. However, one ingrediant has changed. That is, HD challenged the old restriction on setting retail prices and the Supreme Court unanimously agreed with them. The SC said HD and other manufacturers should be allowed to enforce MSRP for their machines. That will certainly give the Motor Company more leverage with dealers to control the price gouging--although it is not fool proof. Bottom line--HD wants to keep good relations with customers, including fa r prices. I say yippie, and more power to them! A happy customer is the best customer!

Brad, Even though my perspective of HD is far different than yours in many ways, I totally agree with you on the pricing aspect. HD is in it for the long term and would like to "punish" the dealers selling over MSRP. The number of dealers selling at these ripoff prices is perhaps only 20% or less of all dealers. Most people will wait the 12 to 18 months rather than pay the ripoff prices. HD doesn't really care if a small number of profiteers rip people off--this has no bearing on the company. When things ventually become rational--the Harley buying public will never forget the dealerships that ripped them off in the 90's. With any luck, these dealerships will be the first to see bankrupcy. This reminds me of a t-shirt I saw that said "GOD FORGIVES--OUTLAWS DON'T!!. This only underscores the fact that no one likes to be ripped off. You said it very well when you said "A happy customer is the best customer!" Hoop

Thanks Hoop. I only hope one day we no longer have to debate this ugly issue. Although we may disagree from time to time, we have one important thing in common--a sincere appreciation of the Harley-Davidson motorcycle! The Motor Company knows their biggest asset is the rider, not their dealerships

Brad: There is a season for every purpose under Heaven From the book of Ecclestiastes, which contains my personal motto: "Meaningless! Meaningless!" says the Teacher. Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless!" - Ecclestiastes 1:2 This argument about Harley prices would probably be considered "yet another meaningless thing under the sun" :-]

OOPS! I forgot to re-open the quotation marks! THat should read: "Meaningless! Meaningless!" says the Teacher. "Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless!" - Ecclesiastes 1:3 (correct this time!)

Why am I always making errors here? It is actually Ecclesiastes 1:2!!! (I also have "That" with two caps, but at least that's not part of the quote!)

I have mostly stayed out of the debates about the HD "practices" re pricing, and selling of their stock, but the particular thread sort of follows a disccusion a group of my motorcycling friends had over dinner the other night. Even though for a long period, you negotiated your best price and then went on the waiting list after plunking down your earnest money, among the 8 of us that were there, we all knew the same 3 people who at the local dealership, paid cash for their rides. Each of those had no waits for their bike, but miraculously had the ride they wanted within a matter of a couple of days, even though most were waiting 8 months for this particular model. One even got a bike that was sitting on the floor, with a "sold" ticket on it. No point to this, except to sling a little mud, and provide some more fuel to keep the fire bright. Ed

I'm glad I stirred up some interesting thoughts with my question "why a Harley". The comments read like a course on economics. I've just posted a new topic that should start some thinking - " What makes that good ol'Harley Sound?" I just did it this morning. Purchased a 1987 Harley FLHTC Road King from a nice young lawyer (hell, everybody looks young to me these days!) for an even ten grand. Looks like new and is 100% Harley just as it came out of the showroom. I couldn't bring myself to pay the outrageous premium of a new one and after a lot of looking this one seemed to be well taken care of and the price reasonable - at least I think it was reasonable. Tell me guys, did I pay too much? You are right about being annoyed at the Harley dealer about the overcharge for a new one. I could have bought a new one off the floor - FOR $20,000! Needless to say, I went this afternoon not to the dealer but to a Harley aftermarket shop and picked up a helmet and ordered a set (pair?) of leather chaps. Looked at a jacket too but didn't buy. I will soon. I'm just a sweet ol' guy who wants to ride. After getting fitted out I'm gonna look like I'm ready to rape and pillage! Somebody needs to offer some le thers that keep us old farts from looking like renegades from Hollister - Gucci maybe? Good ridin'.

Whoa! Congratulations & best luck! A Road King for 10G's? Pretty damn good if you ask me. No Gucci, Rufus. While that leather feels like butter it would melt even faster if go forbid you ever stepped off. Check Road Gear or a Chaparral catalog, you'll find something.

Planeman, Congratulations on your purchase. Harley didn't produce the Road King until 1994. You should learn this immediately. Your bike is often called a bagger, an Electra Glide, or a dresser. At $10,000, it sure sounds like you made a good deal. Condition is everything. If it looks like new--it has obviously been well taken care of. If you replace any of the stock items such as exhaust, carbs, seat, ignition, etc--make absolute certain you keep the stock items--one day this bike may be a collectible classic--the stock items will only add to its value. Have fun and enjoy! Hoop

Yeah I was confused by the date and the "FLHTC" which I though was the 'Glise Tour Classic, but you said 'King... Anywaay, what a bike!

Planeman, was that a 87 FLHTC or 97 and Hoop is right if it has hard saddle bags and a fairing and tour trunk it's a Electra-Glide, other wise known as the King of the Highway from the olden days! Nice Evo touring rig, just don't do to much high-performance engine mods on it as my friends dad has screwed up a beautiful 90th. Aniversary FLHTC and the motor has been rebuilt 4 times and has lost all of it's "reliability" and it a touring bike ain't reliable, in my book it's "useless"! Tailwinds, BJ

It must be a 87, the price corresponds quite well. I have never heard of a Big Twin Evo motor having to be rebuilt 4 times because of high-performance mods. Do you happen to know what modifications were actually performed? Hoop

Hoop, Iam no expert it's been rebulit using 4 differnt kit's from aftermarket speed products, the last as the best so far is by Eldonbrock , heads, cams, ect. The 1st. rebulid was with the cylinders, head, cams, ect. of the one company the "clone makers" like to use! Wish I was better with a the brand names but it constantly broke down with failures of different types, sometimes on the first run after the rebuild. The first one was buy a Harley Dealer, the 2nd-3rd. was done by a local independent shop and the 4th. was done inhouse with the help of some Harley hop-up guru, who Si's dad paid to come out and do the work! Yes, they have more money than I can imagine and that is a lot, ha ha!! Tailwinds, BJ

Good luck with the Electra-Glide, Planeman! While I personally think the Electra-Glide is big & ugly (it's the top box more that the fairing that turns me off, I figured it out!), if it's what you want then it's YOUR ride and my opinion isn't worth a s#!+, so enjoy! BTW, if you used to wrench your bikes in your BSA days then you'll probably find it easier to do on your Harley than on the Japanese or European bikes (with the possible exception of Moto Guzzi) but you may have to do more of it (with the same possible exception...)

Congrats, Planeman!

Ooops Have to write before submitting... Happy for you Planeman, when you buy a bike you buy a BIKE!!!! P.S. I warning you for a detail. Sometimes when we're on those machine, we're getting under 20 years old :o))) Have as fun as I get.

Ooops Have to write before submitting... Happy for you Planeman, when you buy a bike you buy a BIKE!!!! P.S. I warning you on a detail. Sometimes when we're on those machine, we're getting under 20 years old (I'm 49 and it's happened to me lot of times)) :o))) Have as fun as I get.

Time to go to bed, I foget and repeat.

At least you're not doing all that to biblical quotes, as I was!

Hoop is right! The machine I bought is a 1987 Harley FLHTC Electra Glide Tour Classic, black with red pin striping. I've looked a so many bikes these last couple of months they all run together in my mind. The guy I bought it from called it a Road King but it wasn't. Kind of looks like one with the front faring and all. I checked into my little "bible", the Harley Davidson Buyers Guide by Allan Girdler and confirmed it's the bike above. It has an interesting little history. The young lawyer that sold it to me said it wa originally purchased by his best friend who was later murdered in a robbery when he and his wife came out of a swish reataurant in Charleston, S.C. The wife left the bike in the garage for two years un-ridden. She then sold the bike to the best friend who hasn't ridden it much (so he says). He claims he has known the bike from the day it was purchased and it has been garaged, been carefully maintained, and is unmodified in any way. The lawyer and his wife are having their first child and she told him to et rid of it. He offered it at $13,000 a few weeks ago but dropped it to ten grand to get rid of it as the weather is getting really cold and he is getting too much static from the "other half". Bad weather is getting ready to set in here (rain and sleet) so the first chance I'll get to ride will probably be this next weekend. Still gotta get a license.

He's a lawyer, though, so who knows what part of what he told you was true? ;-)

Definitely get a license. It's so easy, I can't think of any reason not to.

I guess they're strapped for cash, why else would his wife be so insistant on selling the bike? According to y'all, spring is the sellers' time! Do wives really put on that much pressure? Maybe I shouldn't be moaning my bachelor status! "Well they're Putting up resistance But I know That my faith Will lead me on." - Sitting Here In Limbo - Jimmy Cliff

Planeman: First, congrats on the Harley. That is an awesome motorcycle and the price was a gift. Second, get into an MSF rider course ASAP. Having your license is not the same thing as being prepared to actually ride. The FLH is a big bike with it's own handling characteristics. Take your time and learn that bike inside and out, and you'll enjoy it for years to come. BTW, pipes, carb. jets and a Screamin Eagle airbox will have NO detrimental affect on reliability, and will significantly improve the bike's overall performance. The guys with problems are the ones performing open EVO surgery. Planeman is flying now baby!

I'll post on wives & bikes later, Sam (o;{

Congrats! and Brad is right about screaming Eagle and what is called a "power course" over here to help you learn how to handle the weight/power of a big machine. Enjoy it!

Maybe your emoticon for "wives and bikes" should be )o;

Sometimes I think my wife is my bike! hehe

um? The hot, chromed one is your wife, no your bike, ok I can see the problem :)

Now if I could just get them both together at the same time! hehe She's beautiful, great seat, nice legs, well appointed, and always there for me! "Your wife or your bike?" Yes!

SMACK! I must not get smutty, I must not get smutty, I must not get smutty....... :)

I have to watch my sense of humour sometimes, or I'll get into trouble with the auditors!

I'm thinkin' that with comparatively few exceptions, Bikes and Wives don't mix. Key word "comparatively". I was going to start on this when I read in one of the recent mags about the guy in *DC* who "got rid of the wife" and now has the entire house furnished with topline Ducatis, with the exceptional MV750 in the kitchen. Says he's very happy, and that "Ducatis and women don't mix, because they (women) can't compete for the affection/ attention the bikes always get from the owners. Let me tell you, I kno of several divorces involving Ducati-guys, one my own best mechanic! Is this weird? Doesn't seem to apply as regulary to the other marques? Anyone dare a comment...?

There may be a few HOG riders that would challenge that notion Frank! I think wives and husbands must share common interests. If biking is the primary interest for one and not the other, it can become an issue. It shouldn't be surprising that some folks lose sight of their relationship for other activites, like golf, poker, hunting, you name it. Remember, 50 percent of all couples don't make it for a multitude of reasons anyway, so the law of averages is probably about the same, with or without a two-wheeled steel mistress. IMHO, it's just easier to point to one thing a d say that's what caused it. Most likely, people are either compatible or not, and sometimes people just naturally grow apart. In many cases, the bike is not the cause of the breakdown--it is the result! Paging Dr. Frazier Krane! Come to the psych ward immediately!

Keep talkin' Brad.... I agree, it can be anything, but the many Italian-bike guys in divorce is noticeable to me. What gets me is, I think I mentioned, when I was dating my wife it was so fine to be a dashing cafe-girlfriend, then a comlete turnaround after marriage, with MANY remarks about how I pay too much attention to bikes in general and mine for sure, etc. The BJ's and Tonys and Shanes are lucky indeed.

This guy got LUCKY!!! this is marridge #3 for me and when we started talking about it I had to be straight forward... THE BIKES WILL NEVER GO AWAY!... Fortunatly she likes to ride as much as I do and agreed or I would be single today....

Frank, the more we talk the more I realize just how much in common our lives are! Maybe if we get together, our wives can bond through mutual commiseration. hehe I'm sorry honey, she won't let me ride you today! hehe

I would say that you must share *some* interests. There's nothing wrong with liking fishing, poker, bikes, etc. If you're going to wait until you find a woman who has those interests, you may be waiting forever. On the other hand, if you can learn to budget your time so that your hobbies don't consume you, and you do have things you can share, each person can have their own individual interests and the relationship can be strong. Poker and fishing? That's what buddies are for!

Oh, The wife loves to Fish, Plays Poker machines habitually, shares a small interest in the computer, and reads my Guns and Ammo......... Life is GOOD.....

Jon: If you're going to wait until you find a woman who has those interests, you may be waiting forever. Wouldn't a woman with those interests be worth the wait? Shared interests would IMO reduce the amount and severity of conflicts! One wonders what the other 50%, the ones who worked it out, would have to say about that? "My woman left me, She didn't say why..." - Many Rivers To Cross - Jimmy Cliff

Forever, Sam? I think you should have your wife (with common things that you enjoy doing together) and your buddies (with not necessarily the same things that you enjoy with your wife). If you spent 100% of your time with your woman, it would get dull.

I am personally not of the opinion that a disagreeable woman is better than none at all. If I can't find someone tolerable, then that's just too bloody bad. "Don't know that I will, But until I can find me A girl who will stay And won't play Games behind me, I'll be what I am; A solitary man." - Solitary Man - Neil Diamond

It may be a little late but, my co-partner in crime always recconed to catch them young and bring them up right! I was 15 when I first met him (he was 20), had my first bike by 16 and my mother gave up by the time I was 17 (but she rides pillion with me now - "but dont tell your father" unfortunately for those of you over 22, the world tends to frown upon "cradle snatching" but women who love bikes are out there, and some are unattached! :) There are also some "late developers" who find bikes after 16, there are 3 lasses at work who in the last 2 years have passed their tests and got bikes, initially as transport but have now become totaly enthralled with the whole biking world. Seek and ye shall find?

I agree with Jon and Shebee here. In a small way I've missed the boat (o;! Didn't catch one young and hang on! And the way jon puts it is mostly true, BUT I bet you,ve not lived with someone for too long eh Jon? So that you've grown tired of distracting remarks, etc. That's where Sam's philosophy starts to sound veerrry attractive.

It's all a balancing act. The more you have in common, the more you respect each other, and the more you commit yourself the greater the odds of success. That doesn't mean you can't be different and still make it work. Some do, and some with lots of stuff in common don't. There is no rule book. But just like motorcycles--as soon as you think you have it (or him or her) completely figured out, you're definitely in big trouble! Relationships are moving targets! I gave my wife everything!--just like the judge ordered me to do! hehe

Boy, I guess Iam the odd man out here, see I'd rather spend time with my wife than even my best male friend. We RIDE, that's our mainstay in this long strange trip called life. We also go on walks, dream of taking a WindJammer cruise and meeting Sam in person in the Islands someday, see movies,etc. Jo, knits, makes handmade wedding vales,etc, I spend my other life hacking on the web tv and constantly restrucering my web site but we are still together. The problem is that humans put to much in "material" things, house, new car, 60" big screen, computer and husband's and wives develop the "MINE SYNDROME". Instead of sharing what each other do, the create their "own little worlds". Here's an example, I couldn't careless about JO's "homey hobbies" but I will glue on beads our get stuff for her and as she works on her stuff, I play on the WWW and we talk. You must find a way to "share the joy's". One of the other "BIG" problems is that most married people with KIDs, "forgot how to be a couple", the marriage must "COME FIRST" and though the kids are a "close second" the "couple" is the true foundation of the marriage, if the couple grows apart then the family has a "very weak foundation" and each seek joy and fullfillment usually "IN MATERIAL THINGS". Frank, I can see why Ducati rider wife's feel leftout as most of the Duck owners I have known are "fantics" to a point and some to exteems! See Harley riders have an advantge, the Style of the bike makes it "easier to share" with your soulmate, Ducatis are almost "designed" with the solo rider in mind. The other point is the "preceived danger" the mate see's for their spouse, hopefully this is "love" motovaited and not "support (ie: MONEY), motovaited, if so you must "talk out the fear" to create a comfo t zone. If it's support movataited, YOU ARE TOAST!!!! Nothing you do will create a "comfort zone", and all you can do is stand your ground or the spouse will steal your soul and chain you down so he/she can have their "comfort zone". If you have a good basic relationship, work hard to find a true communication between each other. You want to "understand" each other, not just "tolerarate" each other, it can be accomplished but it takes real work and real love! Tailwinds, BJ

Are you sure you're not a marriage councilor or an advice columnist BJ? Damn good points! Dear Doctor BJ...hehe

BJ YES! Its all down to loving enough to give and take, and getting joy from your partners pleasure.

Hey Brad, Move over..... There has to be more room on that leather couch.... Good points all BJ!...