Renate: MOTM - only 2 hours long? But it's in 3 parts... have I f...d up something? :-) Stefanie:Renata, Ooops. Hope you don't mind another correction, but her name is RenatE :-)

Stef, it's good to see you back posting regularly. I hope you'll stay awhile even if I do misspell your name frequently. I think it was that extra hour of MOTM that did me in. Luckily, I hadn't started my bottle of wine policy when I first saw P&P or Nostromo but I haven't seen Lost Empires yet. Perhaps I should switch to a pitcher full of smoothies when I watch that. So which will be our next film? AMITC? Valmont? Tumbledown?

Renate: MOTM - only 2 hours long? But it's in 3 parts... have I f...d up something? :-) :-) Don't know, how many hours has *your* version? 4? 5? In this case I would like to have the uncut version :-))! I've heard rumours that it shows a very long and passionate affair with a beautiful German woman aka Frau Sch�tterli? Stefanie:Renata, Ooops. Hope you don't mind another correction, but her name is RenatE :-) Thanks, Arami, for putting this right. You aren't in proof reading business, by chance? Stefanie (or Stephanie? :-) ), though I am indeed very peculiar about my name, RenatA is ok with me, since it is a) written on top of the message, and b) the Italian version of my name....

(Evelyn)You know, Laura...I really admire your humility :-) Hee Hee Renata, darling, where in the world did you get that I did not like MOTM in the diatribe that I wrote? I only gave a physical description of CF. I did not care for then ending that leaves one guessing what the hell went on! I think you take too much on a two sentence paragraph and start ranting because you like to. I liked MOTM. I'm not a Mystery fanatic, so it really isn't my cup of tea:) CF played S. Whalby quite credibly. Quite eerily, too. But I'm still trying to figure out who did what to whom.

Ciao, Renata! Come sta? :-) I did not care for then ending that leaves one guessing what the hell went on! Double suicide pact.

Me: MOTM - only 2 hours long? But it's in 3 parts... RenatA: Don't know, how many hours has *your* version? I would like to have the uncut version... Could it be only 40 mins per episode? I've never really noticed that. Very strange! it shows a very long and passionate affair with a beautiful German woman aka Frau Sch�tterli Uhmmm... Thanks, Arami, for putting this right... RenatA is ok with me Oh, bother...

This may have been asked before, but has anyone in the U.S. been able to get their hands on MOTM, Lost Empires, or Tumbledown? If I remember correctly, these were all made for tv movies? Anyway, if anyone has been able to track down a copy of these that we can watch on our VCR's, please let me know--I feel so deprived! I was fortunate enough to get a copy of FP from wonderful Heide a few months ago, for which I am eternally grateful! Trina

My 2 cents on MOTM Like most Colin films, it gets better with each viewing. He looks quite appealing. Once again, his portrayal of a tortured soul is dead on. Father and son, both so caught in their love the wife/mother. She destroyed 2 lives when she left. My question is: why did it take so many years for the rage to surface? Did anyone notice that his running was very odd here? Nothing like FP. Hope he was only running "in character".

Did anyone notice that his running was very odd here? Nothing like FP. Hope he was only running "in character". Emma, can you specify a bit what you mean with "very odd"? Curious. I did not find his running odd so far, but it was indeed different from FP, or Tumbledown. But I will watch it again soon :-)) , and pay some more attention to his running style.

Stephen Whalby ran like a non-althlete, his arms were flapping about, like he was going to trip on something. especially when he waa running down the alley. But his walk was the same, that some long legged stride, can spot him walking anywhere. Those soulful Eyes His big brown eyes, full with tears when he said, "I don't know, God, Lynn, I don't know..." When he was recording notes for his article, into a small tape recorder, I imagine this is how he records his tapes for son Will.

He runs differently in Wings of Fame. He must adjust running style to character! Same eyes though! I don't know if we've decided what the next film discussion will be, but would anyone be interested at some stage, not necessarily now, in discussing the Rupert Brooke radio play "The One Before the Last". I've just heard it for the first time, and thought it was excellent. It was marvellous to hear so much of Colin's voice, and I've always wondered how he would read poetry (very well!) He really does have the Voice and the Looks ....all he needs are the right roles to display his talents!! And a little bit more dialogue, pl-e-eease! Anyway I'll save my enthusiasm for the discussion (hopefully!). I think I enjoyed the play more because I'd just read "Forever England (life of Rupert Brooke) by Mike Read (ISBN 1-85158-995-3), and felt I knew more about the characters. Recommende read.

Oh, incase the above all sounds terribly serious and lit-critty, this was the first time I have EVER found a radio play to be sexy! How does he do it? :-)

(Bethan)I've just heard it for the first time Arghhh! Has the Beeb just repeated it and I missed it?

Days and days I couldn't log in, and I feel guilty continually signing up as a new person just to get to write. Maybe I'll send an Email about how to clean that up. That said, I am catching up on the CF boards--it's a lot to read, but wonderful fun and I love what everyone has to say. I also ended up on the Porch once while trying to log in, and came across Nan outside of Drool. It made me glad that 1)she's running things and 2)well, that's she's running things. I mean, I am new and have NO opinion on anything so far, except that here it's easy to have fun and meet interesting, cool gals (and maybe guys, for all I know). But I was grateful for her defense of thi space. It was so metaphorical to me, the whole contretemps, but on a plain old earthly level it was practically and tactically well handled. If nobody knows what I'm talking about I'll elaborate (or look for yourself on Porch 15). I look forward to getting current on this topic as well as other CF related. It just tickles me that people on other boards could get annoyed with CF and Firthmania :-)

(CherylE)It just tickles me that people on other boards could get annoyed with CF and Firthmania :-) Yes, we had some unpleasantness a few months ago at that topic but it is well over now. In fact, it's so over that Mike and I have been chatting in email about Spring things and sharing ideas. It was really just a misunderstanding that got out of hand. I didn't mention it before because I didn't want to drag anyone else into it. Knowing you all as I do, I know that there will be some comments you read that will make you wild...I implore you to remember that it's over. You don't have to comment on somethin that happened 4 months ago...it will do no good because, as I mentioned, Mike and I have worked it out between us. Be nice, now :-) And Cheryl, I thank you for the compliments...you're sweet :-) But in reality, I'm just here to make the place pretty and keep the conversation going--the site belongs to Terry.

Nice job, Nan. But next time you're ambushed and outnumbered, feel free to call out the Cavalry!! :-)

So when do we start discussing AMITC; I've read the book a couple years back, and thought maybe we could throw some insights from book to movie. I know not all has read the book, but it really doesn't stray too far. Oh, and one other thing, AMITC, the book, is listed as a childrens/preteen book at the Boston Public Library. *shrug*

(cheryl E) I also ended up on the Porch once forgive my ignorance: what or where is the Porch?

Well, I found it out by myself - and that took me to the babes conference - and mygod those guys do tackle their drool differently. I don't mean to be discorteous to them, but thank you all ladies for drooling the way you do. I really enjoy it here. I'm very glad I found you.

Maybe you could give us seminars?

Terry, you don't really mean it!

I hope this is the right board : I recently wrote to The History Channel (History Channel.com) since they have shown Hostages about once a year. I asked them to show TUMBLEDOWN, since it pertains to the Falklands War and is directed by Sir Richard Eyre. (did not mention DB...wanted them to think I was a real history scholar!) They answered: "We also appreciate the program suggestions mentioned in your e-mail. We will certainly keep your ideas in mind as we acquire future programming for The History Channel. Viewer correspondence is the best way for us to know what subjects interest our viewers. Be assured that we will continue to try and acquire comparable material, especially those programs likely to attract viewers as appreciative as yourself." I know it's a canned remark, but if enough viewers request a program, they might show an interest. email to: view1@aetv.com address to "Viewer Relations" Now this" history scholar " is off to the Babes Conference (thanks Gi)!

(nan) Absolutely, Terry was/is magnificent and did/is doing a fabulous job. Yup, history is history, and it's such as run-of-the-mill kind of discussion.But it can get so stupid if the general goal of peaceful coexistence gets lost. For me it highlights one of the cliches that you hear both ways: women are better at getting along and working togther despite differences (nurturing, blah, blah as evidence) AND men are better .......(sports, business, and combat teams as evidence). I think it's a charac er thing. And I am in awe of the technical and managerial skills and time it takes to run something like this. Very grateful. Nice that you're humble, Nan, but entropy is death. Nobody around here seems controlling or uptight (hurray), but tiny loving nudges can make all the difference. Which brings me back to the topic. I will post part of this on 97 on the off chance that there are some people who don't overlap. What must be posted twice? Ya'll are so funny you brightened up half of Manhattan's day. I printed (whew) a lot and read it in a restaurant and on the subway, and I was laughing and pounding the table or my leg, depending on where I was. People didn't seem to think I was crazy; they were intrigued as to what was so damn funny. I must be very cool to have such a thick sta k of SUCH funny writings, was the general consensus. And when I wasn't laughing, I had that special smile mentioned on 59. Thank you all and I look forward to AMITC or whatever.

I'm not sure it's really clear that (I think I understand that) Terry runs the site and Nan the board. I'm speechless with admiration, appreciation, gratitude, ...(I'm speechless, but somebody tell Terry.)

I'm not sure it's really clear that my kudos are...I'm speechless with admiration, appreciation, gratitude, ...(I'm speechless, but somebody tell Terry.)

Well now that's bizarre . . .

Now, AMITC, can we get back to it? How about we view it over the week-end and start a discussion on Monday or Tuesday?

I'm in. I ordered 3 things through RoP (everything that was less than $80) to begin with, but I'll rent AMITC. I echo Trina's question re the TV movies that someone in the US might have. Pardon my ignorance, but does it make a difference whether a movie's custodian is in the US or not? If the gal who benefits is willing to foot the bill?

Kate:Don't read this!! ;-) but does it make a difference whether a movie's custodian is in the US or not? Only from the standpoint of compatible VHS formats. At some point, the original (if it was only shown on British TV) has to be converted from PAL to NTSC, and then the usual duplication process would go on.

(Laura) AMITC, can we get back to it? How about we view it over the week-end and start a discussion on Monday or Tuesday? Your choice: AMITC or SC. Not both.

Oh, Karen!!!! Hee hee!!!! I can try and do both;p

(Terry)Maybe you could give us seminars? Terry, I said I meant no offence, just that it's more to my taste the way we do things over here. I read some posts on the topics on Autumn (all, I think) and Claudia Shiffer (some)to get some impression, and came back because I'm more interested in this group... also in CF, naturally, but he's not the only actor I admire, and I've quit other discussion groups in the Net because they were not my style. So what I really mean is I'm very glad to have found this group of people I have fun with. OK? :-)

Cheryl, I think most people do visit all the CF topics in activity, so maybe you don't have to bother and post in 2 different topics. Not that it isn't interesting to read you in any of them!

I meant that in a very friendly, joking way... I really admire how drool is conducted!

Kate:Don't read this!! ;-) It matters not whether I read it, it's whether some law enforcement agency reads it. And it's not me that will get into trouble!! ;-)

Re: Tape conversion from PAL to US format: (Kate) And it's not me that will get into trouble!! ;-) I'll share a cell with Karen....and we'll watch all the CF films on NTSC :-)

And it's not me that will get into trouble!! ;-) Who knows? Aiding and abetting. Certainly knowledge of our nefarious activites!! Could lead to early deportation. Designation as persona non grata, making you ineligible to return. ;-) Can just see the headlines: "Firth Fans on Internet Busted. Ringleader from Oz Plead, "I tried to get them to stop, but they're addicts!" 'Nuf nonsense. We should confine our requests for *lending* our tapes to private e-mails. They should not be bandied about on a public board as Counsel suggests.

LOL! Luckily I'm leaving the country voluntarily before my visa expires ;-)

Absolutely! Who said anything about copying?! I buy (which is what I said.) And I'm sure you do too. I just meant the PAL/NTSC thing isn't a problem in this day and age and with round trip Federal Express... I'm sure by "duplication" Karen meant the normal process of watching something several times and returning it to it's lawful owner. Or custodian, as I put it. Maybe it's from being in the film, music, software business and having always been a voracious reader. I buy it if I can, to support th t product. Libraries and video stores don't work for me. I always end up with bigger fines that if I'd bought the thing in the first place, and I do in fact study things on video, use my gazillion CDs for listening but also for scratch soundtracks (to give a composer an idea of what I'm looking for), and scribble on books unless they're out of my price range and thus from the library. And that's what my question really was, a formerly veiled request for further info. My CDs and tapes also make me very popular--I'm a little lending library all by myself. This actually is why I bought what I could. I would end up paying more in the long run, and I hate bad prints. I did buy the ones for video stores (priced $89.00 or so) used when that was the only format I could find. I'm not insane.

Of course, most of my collections were free because I was in the business.

Ya see...simple misunderstanding. ;-) However, I'm pleading *insanity* should the need arise.

Cheryl, and any other CF video seekers, I highly recommend The Video Shop (www.videoshop.co.uk) in England for those Lost-in-America Brit films like Fever Pitch or Another Country. They're not only prompt, they're reasonably priced even with shipping and it's not too difficult to find a way to convert from PAL. I had to laugh though when I read you hate bad prints. Don't we all but when you're crying out for a new Colin fix and there's nothing out there but 6th generation off the TV tapes, anything's gonna look good. Desperation is a curious thing. So what did you get? And are we discussing AMITC?

Permission to enter AMITC? Has anyone read the book?

(Heide) Permission to enter AMITC? By all means, sweetie...go to it :-)

Has anyone read the book? } Yes, I was just rereading it on the way to and from Cape Cod. The movie kept amazingly close to the novella. It helped that the book is only 100 pages.

I read it too. Found it helped to fill in the blanks in the film. Though the film was v. fathful to the book. I am getting it back this week from Library Loan.

Evelyn, you jumped a couple of years on us:)

The book is on my reading list. I'd like to hear how the book is different/similar to the film. Is there more about Vinnie? Moon is supposed to be homosexual but that's not clear from the film except from the one line the man says to Tom in a message he wants to be delivered to Moon but I have difficulty making it out. Something about "Bugger his bum". Is there more pertaining to Moon's homosexuality in the book? The apple symbolism is very strong in the film. Is it conveyed in even more depth in the book? How is Tom described in the book? Can you picture Colin from the description? With what emotion are the people on the train looking at Tom? Guilt? Pity? Distaste? It's not immediately obvious that he was in the war. A twitch and stammer does not automatically brand you as a veteran though there were so many "intact" wounded men from the war wandering around, he may not have been an uncommon sight even in Oxgodby. (Laura) I found the children to be wonderful characters who suprisingly help heal a very wounded Tom Birkin. I love the Ellerbeck children in the film and can see how they are comforting to Tom as they sit quietly in the pew with their gramophone watching him work on the mural. I felt badly for Cathy when Tom pretended he wasn't in his belfry at the end of the movie when she comes to call. I hope she couldn't smell his cigarette and know he was up there.

As soon as the book comes from Library Loan, I'll answer your questions, Heide. Quoting the "chapter and verse". I read it over a year ago. Tremendous. Actually, the film also served to make the book more enjoyable. BTW for those who wish to read the two books on which MLSF is loosely based on. Here are the ISBNs: Both By Denis Forman: Son of Adam: ISBN: 0233 98593 X To Reason Why ISBN 0233 987312

About the movie: For a long time, I thought the book that Birkin pressed the flower in was just any old book, but after about my 10th time watching the film (which gets better each time), I now think that it is the same book the Old Birkin is carrying at the very end of the story. The old man is carrying a book on architecture that he wrote, and when the flower is pressed, you can see a diagram of different columns. --In other words, he presses the flower in a book he has not written yet. I really like the circularity of that image.

The first time I saw this film, I didn't think I could bear watching it again but now that I own it, I watch it again and again. I thought it was painfully sad at first but now don't find it so. What saves me is seeing that as an old man, Tom is well (meaning healthy), perhaps not prosperous but he still finds meaning and takes pleasure in what he did. Beautifully filmed, beautifully, subtly acted. Rife with symbolism which I love to try to decipher. I hope some people have thoughts on the questions I'd like to bring up. Some I've decided on the answer, some I have not. Why does Tom resist Alice? I don't think it's because of Vinnie. Does he think she is that unapproachable for someone as damaged as he considers himself to be? Is it his sense of morality? We know she's Eve tempting him. Tempting him from where? He's not exactly in the garden of Eden. She's practically quivering, she wants him so much. What keeps him from kissing her in the belfry? One of my favorite scenes is when Alice comes to see the mural and she climgws up the scaffolding. He's so eager and happy she's there. My favorite look is when she starts to descend the ladder and for a moment she pauses and they're at eye level. He looks so anxious as if he doesn't want her to leave. Love the scene in the woods when he says, "Many men would say that you were beautiful, Mrs. Keach." If it was going to happen, I think it would have happened there. Is he humiliated that she saw him so vulnerable after the shot rang out? More and more scenes I love- in town when Alice sees Tom watching her through the window of the pub. She looks at him, quickly, guiltily looks at her husband, then looks back at Tom. They walk away and he gazes after her. (Ann) The old man is carrying a book on architecture that he wrote, and when the flower is pressed, you can see a diagram of different columns. Thanks, Ann, I had no clue. I knew it couldn't be a bible. What makes you say he wrote the book? I will re-watch, of course, but I never saw that.

(Gi)I guess I'm the only one who doesn't read all the boards. (I hadn�t seen the films but now I've seen most of them.) (Laura)�children to be wonderful characters who suprisingly help heal�Birkin. I ordered the book (I only knew the play.) Interesting about the children--in the film I was so annoyed with them�. (Heide) Moon is supposed to be homosexual�one line�difficulty making it out. �is there more�in the book? I wondered when 1)he offers to Birkin, "Just haven�t met the right girl yet," which is a pretty standard line, especially in the past. 2)He doesn�t seem interested in Alice or any other women. But really the only other clue to me, and the thing I liked most about Branagh�s understatement, was this: 3)Birkin meets the angry officer in town, and in the next scene, Moon offers Birkin milk (for his tea, I assume) by the tent. The way Branagh sits, legs tucked under and hands folded in his lap demurely, was new to us. They discuss Alice and Moon reverses himself, agreeing that maybe it's not so bad that Birkin hasn�t seen her very much. Moon says something about giving "it" up, the two of them, f r the easy life. Birkin toasts to the easy life. But Moon doesn�t toast back. It makes sense to give up sex to make things simpler, but apparently Moon can�t or won't, which is what happened to get him taken off the front. The next scene, I think, in the tavern, Moon says he went around the bend a little six months before the end, losing "chaps he cared for." Moon may try to veil his history while referring to general horrors of war, but given the earlier scenes in this sequence we hear them with a exual twist: he was willing to risk his reputation for sex/love; or he used sex/love to help him survive and got caught; or he realized that who you care for may be dead this afternoon. However it was, he can't toast to giving it up. So, visual cue: the way Moon's sitting; accompanying story development: Sequence (of scenes) about Moon's private life, which we've known nothing of till now. �didn't think I could bear watching it again�painfully sad at�as an old man,�he still finds meaning and takes pleasure in what he did. This, like most of CF�s movies, make me smoke. All that longing! When Alice said to him he�d found what he was looking for, I thought, what a wishful/mean thing to say. But with Old Birkin�s happiness at returning to the church and remembering, I suppose it was true. It might not have been what I wanted him to have, but it was what he�d come for. Why does Tom resist Alice? � kissing her in the belfry? Much to my dismay, she can�t do anything; she�s the vicar�s wife. He�s been as open with her as he can, and she hasn�t stepped the least out of bounds, so can he really do anything more than he did? What can he offer her? She has a husband and home and life, and he has a wife, war wounds, and not much else. He�s (masterfully)inarticulate; she nods in agreement/understanding; but she proves to be not the kind of woman who�s going to step out of her big house (however empty it is.) Now she probably nev r will. But that doesn't make ME feel any better :) You just want her to say something, anything. But there I am, suffering right along with him.

(Heide) AZ, AMITC, FF, CoF(had it), Advocate, V, ATA, FP, Playmaker, Hostages...everything except P&P2, WoF, AC, MOTM, Tumbledown, I think. I rented P&P2 for the moment.

Also TEP (bought).

Hello everyone. I'm new to the boards. I've been a CF fan for a while and have seen most of his work that is available on video. Love your discussions and hope I will be able to add something of interest along the way. You guys seem to have alot of fun here and I thought it was time I jumped in. AMITC is one of my favorite CF films. I agree with hiede about the wonderful symbolism. Restoration of the painting as well as his life. Scene of hell and his view of war. When he first sees Alice, next scene he is uncovering an angel. When I read hiede's question about why he doesn't make his move on Alice in the belfry, I watched it again. In the scene before he confronts the vicar and I think he gains sympathy for him. He also knows what it's like to have a wife be unfaithful and does'nt want to inflict that pain on another. The healing experience has givin him back his own moral agency and the desire NOT to hurt or destroy others. I'd love to hear more of everyone's opinions.

Hello there, Sofie! I'll be the first to welcome you to the board! I think that your interpretation of why Tom holds back from Alice, despite the obvious pain to both of them, is very perceptive. There's a lot I would like to say about AMITC (when time permits) - it is undoubtably one of my favourite CF films and one which I can watch and re-watch. The ending I find almost unbearably moving. It is the music, the juxtaposition of the young Birkin and his older ravaged self, the poignancy of the old man reliving his memories, and the heartrending fact that he has obviously never again found love. He carries the book with the pressed flower, which Alice gave to him on the day in the woods when he nearly declared his love for her. TEP didn't move me one jot (except poor sweet Geoffrey!)...this I find difficult to watch.

Sophie He also knows what it's like to have a wife be unfaithful and does'nt want to inflict that pain on another. The healing experience has givin him back his own moral agency and the desire NOT to hurt or destroy others. Hi Sophie,Welcome.... you have given us a v. poignant reason for his repression in the belfry.!! Does anyone else see Alice as a temptress and not so angelic? Fondling those apples...biting one...lots of smoldering looks...almost assaulting him. Great cast!

Welcome, Sofie! Glad you decided to unlurk :-.) Is it me or are the tags flipping out again? One minute it's okay and the next, everything is italicized. *sigh* Well, just in case, I'm going to close that tag

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Two very good points to ponder as to why Tom doesn't take Alice in the belfry: (Cheryl) What can he offer her? She has a husband and home and life, and he has a wife, war wounds, and not much else. (Sofie) He also knows what it's like to have a wife be unfaithful and does'nt want to inflict that pain on another. Though Tom gained strength during his month in the country (was it only a month?), he seems to feel inadequate in Alice's presence. Doesn't his stutter return when she is near him? And he is a kind and thoughtful man who feels Vinnie's desertion strongly. (Evelyn) Does anyone else see Alice as a temptress and not so angelic? Good point, Evelyn. Despite the lighting, Alice is no angel. Especially felt this when Tom comes to the house to collect his payment. First she shows Tom all the empty rooms of the house. Her voice is trembling with repressed emotion (anger?). "Can be quite oppressive. Gives me nightmares sometimes." IMO, the rooms are a symbol of the emptiness of her marriage and she seems quite eager to show Tom this. Then when they arrive in the room where her husband is, she seems to be goading Keach. <i "The rooms, we don't know how to fill them, do we?". Keach seems almost cowed by his wife. What is going on here? The undercurrents are so strong. And then we have the apple scenes. The way she sniffs it and rubs it with her hands, smells her hands. Yeah, she learned it from her father but it's very suggestive and is making the apple very tempting to poor Tom. More, please.

(heide)the rooms are a symbol of the emptiness of her marriage. She seems to be goading Keach. I also saw her obvious intentions toward Tom in this scene. Her offer of showing him the way through the wood in front of her husband? PLEASE!! And she didn't mention that she had seen the painting because she probably didn't go there to see it as much as to see him. Or she might have been too flustered after the meeting to want to bring it up. After making Tom aware of the emptiness of her married life she gives him a rose. She is all silky and sweet, and he seems to be hanging on her every word whereas with others he is guarded.

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It worked for me, so maybe you'll want to try it: next time those italics invade the board, start your response by closing the italics tag. Just that. Now don't ask me why! :-)But I tried it before and it worked, and again in the previous (test) post and it seems to work, so...

(Heide) . Keach seems almost cowed by his wife. What is going on here? The undercurrents are so strong. I think the Reverend Keach is impotent. That would explain the emptiness of the marriage and her "hots" for Tom. (Don't have my book yet. But Laura owns it.) But what is the symbollism of that lone piece of furniture....that in-laws bought at an auction?? Does that represent Rev. Keach...all alone playing his violin in that empty room?

Clever little geek, Gi...

I thought the other one was the clever little geek; must have been wrong;-) I do own the book; I read it about two years ago. Moon is more of a homosexual in the book than they portray him in the movie. Tho' the guy who sees Birkin in the cafe in town mentions that Moon "Buggered the batboy" and the award he received wasn't a well-respected decision, in his opinion.

Hi, Sofie! So glad to have you! (heide)...seems to be goading Keach. "The rooms, we don't know how to fill them, do we?". Keach seems almost cowed by his wife. (evelyn)But what is the symbolism of that lone piece of furniture... auction?? Does that represent Rev. Keach...violin in that empty room? Keach doesn't invite Birkin to stay in his house the very beginning, never considering that an option. Birkin remarks during Keach's sermon, what about me (having no bed)? Alice started her relationship with him by saying it didn't seem right for him to be sleeping in the belfry when they were in their beds. Moon asks what Keach has done for Birkin, which is nothing. Alice makes an opening you could drive a truck through for Keach to invite him stay, and Keach doesn�t. Throughout, Keach's lack of char ty. And lack of relationship, connection�he wants only to listen to himself; he doesn't even imagine visitors will come anymore. Alice wants Birkin and Keach to know that it's ok with her for Birkin to move in, which everyone knows would be a disaster. Alice points out the mystery thing, in the course of talking about emptiness and filling. That piece seems to symbolize her desperation with Keach (piece of something else, don�t know what it is, no one wanted it, doesn't do anything, but at least it was something). And maybe Birkin, who might be something for her to fill her emptiness with. (sofie) �she didn't mention that she had seen the painting because she probably didn't go there to see it as much as to see him... And maybe to keep it between themselves, to pointedly exclude Keach. One of my favorite themes is when Birkin talks about being a restorer�"too much and some chap disappears, not enough and someone doesn�t make it back from 500 years ago." By the time he leaves he�s uncovered those who around him are, by not forcing but also by not resisting. Had he pushed, Alice might have changed, and that�s not what he does. He serves the Great Painter, cleaning so you can see what�s there, but doesn�t consider himself an artist to create or effect some change. He�s horrified by the idea of touching up something he finds. Also, Alice is not the only one to underscore the kind of man Keach is�he does himself. In the last monologue when he talks about people not being religious and not being moved by the practices, it�s so painful to see him looking for his own spiritual satisfaction through other people�s behavior. What a walled-off man.

(Evelyn)I think the Reverend Keach is impotent. Cha-cha-cha! Interesting point. We know he is impotent as a minister. I don't have his dialogue handy but he complains bitterly to Tom about his congregation, they're not moved by him, he's only wanted at funerals, etc. A signal about his marriage too? (Sofie) And she didn't mention that she had seen the painting because she probably didn't go there to see it as much as to see him. Love the guilty looks on both Tom and Alice's face when Keach expresses surprise that she has already seen the painting. They hadn't even done anything other than "lusting in their hearts". (Cheryl) By the time he leaves he�s uncovered those who around him are, by not forcing but also by not resisting. Had he pushed, Alice might have changed, and that�s not what he does. He wouldn't even have needed to push much. She would have come with a whistle. But yes, she would have changed and as you said earlier, she is a wife, has a home. What kind of woman would she have become if she had given up that comfortable life? But we want her to. I'm always questioning even my own convictions about the story and that's why I love to read others' views even if I don't always agree with them. At their best, these film discussions give me new insight into the stories and I love to see the collaboration. But to get to the less lofty images, how about Tommy boy working in the grave? Oomph. He's sweaty, he's dirty, those braces are off, that shirt is hanging out. Love to see him get physical. Don't mind looking at the shot of him from above when the bells go off on his first Sunday in the belfry. He's lying there (love that undershirt), looking so long, lean and lanky.

I've been lurking, but have had no time to post lately. Sorry to be responding to something a bit dated... (Bethan) I don't know if we've decided what the next film discussion will be, but would anyone be interested at some stage, not necessarily now, in discussing the Rupert Brooke radio play "The One Before the Last" I just listened to this for the first time last week. It was excellent. (Can't argue with something that has the DB in almost every scene.) I have a hard time getting into audio plays sometimes, but this was quite interesting and CF's acting very good indeed. Sorry to divert from AMITC. It's one of my favorites, but I haven't seen it for a long time. I'll try and re-watch this week so as to have something to add to the discussion. Welcome, Sofie! I appreciate your insightful comments.

I received AMITC today and read it. So in the next few days I'll answer questions from the book. Heide, Sophie, Cheryl, Ann, Bethan , you were all correct in your assumptions. The jacket of the book has a reviewer : " Mr. Carr's small tale of lost love is also a hymn about art and the compensation joy of the artist, both in giving and receiving." JL carr has written seven children's books ..short stories, historical and architectural subject books. VinnieIs there more abut Vinnie in the book? Not much. "I told him (M) about Vinny and that she'd gone off with another chap. I didn't tell him that she'd almost certainly bedded down with other men whilst I was overseas . Nor that she left me once before" Earlier, he remarks that "Viunny had quality....look where it got me"'. P.110 When he gets her letter at the end. "Heaven knows how she had learnt where I was, but it was from V.: she wanted me home again. There were other things too but that is what it amounted to...she wanted me back. I had no illusions. She would go off again, would come back again. And I should be there". How is Tom described in the book Written by Tom as a flashback, so no physical description . But he says he is 26, Keach 30, Alice 19 or 20. Moon is 26. Sgt Milburn:" Last time I saw you they were carting you off...shell shocked, wasn't it......not many of you chaps came through. Tomorrow:Discussion of hell with Alice. Moon's homosexuality. With Alice in the belfry

(lafn)last time I saw you they were carting you off...shell shocked. I was reading a book for school called Trauma and Recovery. It is written primarily for people who are in the mental health field. It has some interesting information about the history of emotional trauma and how society viewed it and treated it during WWI. There was a terrible stigma attached to any emotinal symptoms that were debilitating to the soldier. Treatment was cruel and humiliating. The scene where Moon says how hard it is for the "in tact ones" like himself and Tom. They are far from in tact an will likely suffer some symptoms for the rest of their lives. I really liked the hymn that was playing when he goes in to find a table from where he can watch her through the window. I recognized it and racked my brain till I found out what it was. "To a Wild Rose" by, I think McDowell?(American). It doesn't necessarily mean anything, except to me. I love when a movie makes me this curious about details. Love the scene when he's lying in the sun in the graveyard. She tells him she's been there ten minutes. Doing what exactly? I know what I would be doing. Great discussion. Love everyones insights.

(sofie)I was reading a book for school called Trauma and Recovery...It has some interesting information about the history of emotional trauma and how society viewed it and treated it during WWI. Could you elaborate?

I've been following the discussion, but only started to rewatch AMITC last night. It's been so interesting reading everyone's views. Speaking of music, when Birkin first lays his hands on the wall, a choir of heavenly voices begins to sing. He has not started his restoration work but is instead trying to feel/understand what lies behind the plaster and paint. I was immediately struck by that use of music and wondered if anyone else did. Does it mean he has reached his day of Judgment? (Sofie) I love when a movie makes me this curious about details. Join the club. Love the scene when he's lying in the sun in the graveyard. She tells him she's been there ten minutes. Doing what exactly? That scene is so lovely and so full of symbolism. CF stretched out on a grave. He looks so happy and peaceful among the dead. Then the angel shows up. He looks up at her and the sun is behind her creating an aura surrounding the halo-shaped hat on her head. But she's hardly an angel. Yes, what has she been doing? ;-) One criticism: The scene where Tom is watching the church service from the belfry and sarcastically comments on the Reverent Keach's (and by implication at this point, the entire congregation's) lack of Christian charity I found a little heavy handed. I think you get the idea that the Reverend's words are hollow from their initial meeting and don't need Tom to spell it out. Evelyn: Have you figured out what is in Moon's suitcase yet?

(patas)Could you elaborate? The horrors of trench warfare caused men to break down in shocking numbers.Number of psyciatric casualties so great that hospitals had difficulty housing them. Some say 40% of British casualties were due to mental breakdowns. Military authorities supressed reports because of demoralizing effect on public. British psycologist Charles Myers attributed first cases to physical cause,effects of exploding shells, resulting in nervouse disorder "shell shock". Syndrome could be seen in soldiers not exposed to any physical trauma. Gradually military psyciatrists forced to acknowledge trauma due to emotional stress of prolonged exposure to violent death. When existence of combat neurosis could no longer be denied, authorities centered on the moral character of the patient.Traditional views held that soldiers should not succumb to terror. The soldier who developed neurotic symptoms was at best seen as inferior human being, at worst a malingerer and coward.Medical writers of this period described these individuals as "moral invalids" and did not deserve to be patients at all.Some military authorities maintained that these men should be court-martialed or di honorably discharged. Lewis Yealland (British psychiatrist of the traditional view)advocated treatment strategy based on shaming, threats, and punishment. Hysterical symptoms such as mutism, sensory loss, or motor paralisis were treated with electric shocks. Yealland reports treating a mute patient by applying electric shocks to his throat. Treatment went on for hours until patient finally spoke.While shocks were applied Yealland exhorted the patient to "remember, you must behave as a hero and have better control over yourself " Within a few years after end of war, numerous men with long-lasting psychiatric disabilities became an embarrasment to civilian society eager to forget. Judith Herman,M.D. goes into great detail primarily to help clinitians recognize symptoms of trauma so that more acurate diagnosis can be made which will lead to more appropriate treatment. I hope this info is helpful. I found it helped me understand Birkin and Moon. They were damaged by war but their wounds were cause for shame not heroism.

(Sophie) I love when a movie makes me this curious about details. Great to have you ,Sophie. What a gem you are to come up with all this trauma info. Makes us understand ( and love) Tom more. OK... The Book "....good old Bannister-Fletcher, our bible in Miss Witherpen's English Architectural Class". " that rose, Sara Van Fleet,... I still have it. Pressed in my book. My Bannister-Fletcher, as a matter of fact. Someday after a sale, a stranger will find it there and wonder why. The Walk in the Woods...Paradise..the rabbit..the shot..not in the book. The lsst scene as an old man...not in the book. The whole book is a flashback (Pl . tell me if you want me to quote from the book in italics) Sometimes they hurt my eyes. "Mrs. Ellerbeck says you are attractive." "Attractive, she said, as though this had never occurred to her or no one had told her before. You are attractive," I said "Attractive?", she repeated. All right, Alice Keach, I thought , you are going to be pushed You can lie awake in the dark too. "Many men would say you are attractive. They'd say you were beautiful" (I stopped shor of I) "Oh", she said... And you? "Me, Well, I'm not an artist, but they gave me a diploma at LCA so I could recognize Beauty. So, professionally, I must tell you. "Yes, your are beautiful. Very And could she have made herself go that bit further and given me the nod, I would have recited a catalog of her charms, because my blood was up." But, then Mossop stepped in... This scene reminds me of the visit to Lizzy at Rosings....when he almost....commits himself!! He does repression so well. (Bethan) the day he almost declared his love By the window.. "She turned so her breasts were pressing against me. And although we both looked across the meadow, she didn't draw away as quite easily she could have done. I should have lifted an arm and taken her shoulder, turned her face and kissed her. Then everything would have been different. My life, hers. We would have had to speak and say aloud what both of us knew, and then maybe, turned ro the window and laid down together on my makeshift bed. Afterwards, we would hve gone away. Maybe on the next train. My he rt was racing. I was breathless. She leaned on me, waiting. And I did nothing, and said nothing. She drew back and said shakily. "thank you for showing me (the mural). Arthur will be wondering about me. No, please don't come down." Karen: Nothing in the book about Moon's suitcase. But after Sophie's research, it must have been medication ...vials?

Sorry, didn't mean to put everything in italics. Hope this isn't.

(lafn)must have been medication...vials No medication available in those days for psyc. problems. People self-medicated with alcohol or whatever. I noticed Moon covering his medal when Tom looks at the open case. He (Moon) is obviously ashamed of the medal given the stigma attached to his emotional breakdown. If he had lost a limb that was a visible disability he would feel more deserving of the medal, but given the bias against any emotional problems during that period he is left in isolation and shame. It is interesting how little things have changed. Society seems more accepting of mental illness but there is still a great deal of blaming the victims of traumatic experiences.

Out, you blasted italics!! until you are needed!! And could she have made herself go that bit further and given me the nod, I would have recited a catalog of her charms, because my blood was up." *** "She turned so her breasts were pressing against me. And although we both looked across the meadow, she didn't draw away as quite easily she could have done. I should have lifted an arm and taken her shoulder, turned her face and kissed her. Then everything would have been different. My life, hers. We would have had to speak and say aloud what both of us knew, and then maybe, turned ro the window and laid down together on my makeshift bed. THIS is is classified as a children's book? Wow, think I'll head off to the library to get this one. There is a strange little war going on in his mind. The trained artist who can recognize beauty and just want to look at it and the man, who wants to possess it. Medals He might be embarrassed about the medals for another reason, not just the stigma of an emotional breakdown. There was the incident that Tom hears about in that little village. It sounded as though Moon were being accused of some act of cowardice in addition to his preference for men. Something happened that put his men in jeopardy and most were killed. Must take a closer look to see if they look like medals. Looked like little vials and a bunch of leather straps like a harness to mean???? :-)

Out, you blasted italics!! until you are needed!! And could she have made herself go that bit further and given me the nod, I would have recited a catalog of her charms, because my blood was up." *** "She turned so her breasts were pressing against me. And although we both looked across the meadow, she didn't draw away as quite easily she could have done. I should have lifted an arm and taken her shoulder, turned her face and kissed her. Then everything would have been different. My life, hers. We would have had to speak and say aloud what both of us knew, and then maybe, turned ro the window and laid down together on my makeshift bed. THIS is is classified as a children's book? Wow, think I'll head off to the library to get this one. There is a strange little war going on in his mind. The trained artist who can recognize beauty and just want to look at it and the man, who wants to possess it. Medals He might be embarrassed about the medals for another reason, not just the stigma of an emotional breakdown. There was the incident that Tom hears about in that little village. It sounded as though Moon were being accused of some act of cowardice in addition to his preference for men. Something happened that put his men in jeopardy and most were killed. Must take a closer look to see if they look like medals. Looked like little vials and a bunch of leather straps like a harness to me???? :-)

(Sophie) I noticed Moon covering his medal when Tom looks at the open case. Keep this girl around. You're right on the money, Sophie!! (I'll slash my wrists if this comes out in italics) At Ripon when Sgt. Milburn comes over..... "Milburn", he said.".Sgt. Milburn"' ... I knew him then...not a bad chap. I mentioned Moon... "...the M.P.s found him in bed with his batman. They really shat on him at the Court-Martial. Crucified him. "Corruption of young men". "Dishonour of the king's commission....."That sort of balls "His M.C. (Military Cross) made made it worse." "Can't understand that". "He never mentioned an M.C." I said." Immediate award. Brought in one of his chaps from the wire. Went back when he heard another screaming. Poor bugger! I suppose he was born that way" ....Knowing Moon was a homosexual didn't upset me. Though , of course, it wasn't something I could forget. It was the idea of an independent man, a proud spirit being shut up like an animal in a military prison...that's what appalled me. Then later at the pub....in the film...Moon says the last six months were the worst when he didn't see any corpses. Tom: "You got the M.C., didn't you. I saw it in the tent"!! So Moon was court-martialed and spent the last six months of the war in the "glass house" as Milburn says.Like Sophie says he is ashamed of the medal probably because of the court-martial. (I think in the US anyone court-martialed is stripped of his medals) Karen: This is not a children's book. I said LL Carr had written 6 children's books. This is not in that category. Some of the parens are mine(: M.C.Mil Cross) In the film Tom doesn't say MC I also rescind my perception that Rev. Keach is impotent. Can't find any reference to assume that. CF portrays Tom perfectly. Natasha Richardson plays her a bit more of a temptress.(Or perhaps that is how Pat O'Connor (Cof F), the director saw her). The apples symbollism in the book are not as graphic as in the film.No fondling etc. Though I am sure "the Eve factor" is what they are supposed to represent. I really prefer the film.(Of course, CF is in it!) And I admire the director for getting a 2 hour film out of a 110 page book!!

Count Almasy is having a Big Day!

Trying to close the italics tag

Wow. It worked. :-)

Hope you haven't slashed your wrists Evelyn! Some very interesting insights here. I wish I'd read the book. BTW is it something of a collector's item? The only copy I could find listed for sale was a secondhand copy for $100! If you've got a copy, hang on to it.....it may make you rich! I love watching this film, and think that virtually all the scenes have some intrinsic value. I'm always moved by the scene in the woods when Birkin reacts to the gun shot, also by his reaction after seeing the dying child, when he himself also seems terribly ill. And I think that CF acts very well with the children...they treat him as one of themselves. and he treats them as equals. What's with these italics?

(Karen) when Birkin first lays his hands on the wall, a choir of heavenly voices begins to sing. ... is instead trying to feel/understand what lies behind the plaster and paint. I was immediately struck by that use of music LOL! I was immediately struck by his beautiful hands in that shot. You know, those long fingers. Thank you so much Evelyn and Sofie - great information. (Sofie) I found it helped me understand Birkin and Moon. They were damaged by war but their wounds were cause for shame not heroism. A stigma still existent today. Evelyn, perhaps you can tell us from the book whether Tom was able to finish out the war. We know Moon spent the last 6 ontohs in "the glass house". (Evelyn-from the book) And could she have made herself go that bit further and given me thenod, I would have recited a catalog of her charms, because my blood was up." Aha! This is the scene (in the woods) where I thought he would kiss her but for the shot. Sounds likely now. I should have lifted an arm and taken her shoulder, turned her face and kissed her. Then everything would have been different. My life, hers. Sound familiar, Cheryl? You asked what could he offer her. Sounds like he is very aware of that. (Evelyn) I also rescind my perception that Rev. Keach is impotent. Oh but it was a good perception. Surely his sexuality is not mentioned at all in the book. Or do we get some steamy love scenes between the Reverend and his Mrs.? Only 110 pages!!! What a disappointment.

(heide)I was immediately struck by his beautiful hands in that shot. You know, those long fingers. Long, are they? ;-p

The italics thing: As I said before, just closing the italics tag seems to make them disapear. At least for whoever's closed the tag. What I still don't understand is, why do they appear in the first place.

Hmmm..... I own the book and my friend bought it at Argosy on Lexington in NY for $1.00:) She inscribed it to me, does that mean it's not worth anything?

I tried closing the tag when I started the last time...and it did not work. Pl. give us a more detail instruction, Gi. "Summertime! And summertime in my early twenties! And in love! No, better than that---secretly in love, coddling it up in myself. It's an odd feeling coming rarely more than once in most of our lifetimes. In books, as often as not, they represent it as a sort of anguish but wasn't so for me. Later perhaps, but not then. I was married. Vinny had gone off with him but neither of us had done much about it. She'd shrewdly left the door open so that, if need be, she could slip back--before she went again. And Alice Keach. I was sure that she was a deeply religious woman: marriage for her really did mean "Let no man put asunder". Never forget this was 1920, another world. So there it was and there it would stay until the day I would go. Then for a year or two , perhaps we'd exchange polite christmas cards and after that we'd draw farther away. But now she was here and, unknowing, mine. Well, that's how I liked to think of it." Interesting line:End of first paragraph: "Later perhaps but not then." Does he repent not having made the overture to Alice?What does everyone think? Was it his innate morality that made him hold back? ( He was not a religious man) No sex bet. the Reverend and Alice. I got this book from a small country library nearby....I hope I can talk them into selling it to me. No one has checked it out since I did two years ago! I assume he was in the war until he was carted away shell shocked. Gotta go check out that "hand" scene you all mentioned. (Notice I did not use italics)

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(bethan) After _MUCH_ ado, I found a copy at Borders(a book/music store)online. Less than $20. It hasn't arrived yet. (sofie) I also like that book. The main thing I�ve appreciated as I�ve gotten older was how shocked the participants were at "the Great War." As is often said, no one was prepared for the extent of the violence. The armament and the planes delivered more destruction than ever before, but the soldiers were still as close to the damage as when wars were fought on horses. In WWII we (humans) had the experience of the first modern war (WWI) to learn from somewhat, but for soldiers in WWI there was no prepa ation, nothing to compare it to. We could now deliver many shells more quickly, so there was geometrically more horror to process (modern world for you.) (evelyn) From the quotes so far, I don�t think I�m going to like the book�s Birkin as much either :-)

Hurray, no italics! I closed them 3 times right off the bat. But maybe all this thinking we have some effect on these critters is like throwing virgins into a volcano to satisfy the rain gods.

The technology of destruction has always outpaced man's ability to deal with it on the battlefield and afterward. The closest thing to WWI in terms of impact would be our Civil War for the numbers of dead, wounded and psychologically scarred veterans. The "shock" of participants at the Great War also stemmed from Britain's threatened position as a world power, France's rapid demise, etc. The ability of upstart Germany to overrun Europe was the kicker and was horribly dealt with in the Treaty of Versailles. (but of course that's with 20-20 hindsight)

Karen: I think that his outburst at Rev. Keach who is delivering a sermon on The Beautitudes...."what about me..did you feed me..give me a bed". And later when after going to visit Emily..he shouts: "There is not God"., all occur near the beginning of the film/book...when he is still agitated , stammering..twitching , ..still feeling the negative effects of his head trauma.. Later, he seems calmer...more rational. Don't you love the ending? He takes the apple she gave him, looks at it tenderly seems to grasp it firmer ,and then bites into it lustily. After doing Tom Birkin, I bet he could do Joe Prince in an afternoon.! This film is held in v. high esteem...even among Kenneth Branagh fans. I'll give you another scene that was not in the film...after the scene in the belfry.

The next evening I pulled myself together and thought; Well usually there's a second chance for most of us; perhaps she is waiting there as I am waiting here . (He goes to the house...stood breathless...as if he had been running , but found the house empty). "They're not here, I thought, they've gone." And I turned away. (Then he remembers the bell by the door) And I pulled at it, so that the bell's sounds came hurrying along corridors, round corners, down staircases, echoing and re-echoing, spreading through the dark emppty house like ripples of her laughter. But know I knew that it was laughter calling to me from the past...clearly, playfully, and yet poignantly . it was the worst moment of my life. And I dragged at the wire again and again, savagely, dispairingly. For how long I cannot, say, but when , at last, I turned away and went, I knew I should never see her again.

I think that his outburst..."what about me..did you feed me..give me a bed". And later...he shouts: "There is not God"...he is still feeling the negative effects of his head trauma.. Later, he seems calmer...more rational. Oh no, not with a ten-foot pole! ;-) the missing belfy scene That was so poignant. He has kept himself in check throughout and now is sitting there ringing a bell, hoping that she will return to him. Ringing the bell is almost like shouting it from the rooftops. He's declaring his love or whatever for her. But there's no one to hear it. Incredibly sad.

"All this happened so long ago. And I never returned, never wrote, never met anyone who might have given me news of Oxgodby. So, in memory, it stays as I left it, a sealed room furnished by the past, airless, still, ink long dry on a put-down pen. But this was something I knew nothing of as I lifted the loop and set off across the meadow. Stocken, Preseigne September, 1978 This is the end of the book. But this locale doesn't sound like England. Does anyone know where it is?

(lafn)But this is something I knew nothing of as I lifted the loop and set off across the meadow. Is he looking back with regret? or is he just remembering a notable time in his life?