Well, I think the facts are emerging because the SEALs are back in the US and have been debriefed. But honestly, did anyone really think they were going to take him alive? For what purpose? A trial? He repeatedly boasted and gloated about his guilt. And what other country (I can count them on about one hand) would be so honest and transparent as to "correct" the earlier reports? I think at this point, the less said, the better. And I seriously hope we do not release photos.

I'm wary of photos also.

And yes, there are those that say that he should've been caught for trial like Milosovic, but I read today that the statute of limitations is past for 9/11 for them and we aren't a signatory to it.

No way, a trial for OBL is just what he would have wanted. All that publicity, hell no. I don't even think he deserved a Muslim buriel rite. He did not deserve it. I read he had money sewed into the jacket wore, to be ready to move at any minute. I hope they show that ugly photo. They blew his brains out, people can chose to see it or not.

There will be criticism no matter the decision made. There are concerns that showing it will enrage the extremists and cause more atrocities. Also, showing the pic/video confirms nothing to those who don't believe he was killed, since they will argue that anything can be photoshopped nowadays.

CBS News is now reporting that the President has said the photos will not be released. IMO, it's for the best.

They need to shut the hell up at this point. Now the story is going for this angle... AP source: bin Laden thought going for a weapon By KIMBERLY DOZIER and ERICA WERNER, Associated Press Kimberly Dozier And Erica Werner, Associated Press � 17 mins ago WASHINGTON � U.S. officials tell The Associated Press that the Navy SEALs who stormed Osama bin Laden's compound shot and killed him after they saw him appear to lunge for a weapon. The officials, who were briefed on the operation, say several weapons were found in the room where the terror chief died, including AK-47s and personal side arms. The officials also say a U.S. commando grabbed a woman who charged toward the group. The fear, the officials say, is that she might have been wearing a suicide vest. The Navy SEAL pulled the woman away from his fellow SEALs. The officials further say the two dozen SEALs involved in the operation are back at their home base outside Virginia Beach, Va., and that the extensive debriefing they underwent is complete. THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

Hooray..I don't want them released either; macabre.

The Scottish National Party has secured an historic overall majority in the elections for the Scottish Parliament. Big losers were the LibDems. Next stop a referendum on independence:-)

BTW, the SNP has no connection with BNP. SNP is a socialist party which wants full independence for Scotland.

Was it expected that the AV NO vote would win? Is it good or bad for Scotland to want full independence. Can an independent Scotland sustain itself?

It wasn't expected that the NO vote would win. Scottish Nationalists want Scotland to be a sovereign state within the European Union. I see no reason why Scotland can't sustain itself. Westminster will, of course, say we cannot.

Sorry, I should have said it wasn't expected that the YES vote would win! Apologies, it's very late here and I've had a very busy and stressful few days, and am suffering brain fatigue:-(

Saudis Arrest Woman Leading Right-to-Drive Campaign RIYADH, Saudi Arabia � The government of Saudi Arabia moved swiftly to extinguish a budding protest movement of women claiming the right to drive, a campaign inspired by uprisings across the Arab world demanding new freedoms but at risk Monday of foundering. Manal al-Sharif, 32, one of the campaign organizers, was detained Sunday in the eastern city of Dammam for up to five days on charges of disturbing public order and inciting public opinion by twice driving in a bid to press her cause, said her lawyer, Adnan al-Saleh. Ms. Sharif was arrested after two much-publicized drives last week to highlight the Facebook and Twitter campaigns she helped organize to encourage women across Saudi Arabia to participate in a collective protest scheduled for June 17. The campaigns, which had attracted thousands of supporters � more than 12,000 on the Facebook page � have been blocked in the kingdom. Ms. Sharif�s arrest was very likely intended to give others pause before participating in the protests in a country where a woman�s public reputation, including her ability to marry, can be badly damaged by an arrest. Read it all here: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/24/world/middleeast/24saudi.html?_r=2&emc=eta1

By Wendell Potter Wendell Potter is a health insurance industry whistleblower and author of 'Deadly Spin: An Insurance Company Insider Speaks Out on How Corporate PR Is Killing Health Care and Deceiving Americans' May 19th, 2011 7:04 PM Insurance Industry Flack Screws Up, Points Us to Report We Really Should Read By Wendell Potter I turned 43 a couple of weeks after I joined CIGNA in 1993. One of the birthday gifts from my new colleagues was a framed three-word quote by E. B. White: "Be obscure clearly." We laughed and laughed. It was an inside joke -- and a perfect present for an HMO PR guy who more than a few times had to be obscure when responding to media inquiries. Reporters always wanted more information than I dared give them, but I had to give them something. Hence the need to follow White's sage advice. That quote, by the way, was in Elements of Style, the classic 1959 book on writing that White coauthored with William Strunk Jr. White was not actually recommending obscure writing. He was just saying that if for some reason you felt you could not tell the whole truth, if there was no choice but to be obscure, at least use the active voice and proper grammar while doing it. Successful flacks know how to use a variety of public relations tricks to obscure the truth -- being selective in the disclosure of information, for instance, or using statistics in misleading ways. Or pointing the finger of blame at someone else or "reframing" the issue about which reporters are asking. I have kept that framed quote all these years. Now, though, I'm thinking it would have a better home in the office of the chief flack for the health insurance industry. Yesterday, Robert Zirkelbach, spokesman for America's Health Insurance Plans (AHIP) took aim at the health care advocacy group Health Care for America Now (HCAN). HCAN took issue with AHIP's assertion that the average profit margin for health insurance firms is just 4.4 percent. Zirkelbach did not explain how he came up with that figure, but considering the fact that the big for-profit insurers had significantly higher margins than 4.4 percent last year (according to Yahoo! Finance), AHIP's calculations must have included the insurers that, at least in theory, don't make profits at all, like the so-called nonprofit Blue Cross and Blue Shield plans. In a memo to editors and reporters Thursday afternoon, HCAN took issue with the 4.4 percent figure and accused AHIP of trying to pull the wool over journalists' eyes. "AHIP's focus on profit margins is misleading and designed to protect their massive income by shifting attention away from their return on equity -- a key measure of profits as a percentage of the amount invested," HCAN's executive director, Ethan Rome, wrote. "That return is a phenomenal 16.1 percent as of today. By that measure, health insurers are ranked fourth highest of the 16 industries in the health care sector. The health insurance industry has a higher return for investors than cell phone companies, beer companies, mortgage companies, life insurance companies, TV broadcasters, drug store companies, or grocery stores." Zirkelbach, the health insurers' flack, responded in a Reaganesque, "there you go again," fashion. "Shocking," he wrote. He said Health Care for America Now had "released yet another deceptive, ideologically based attack on health plan profits. The data continue to show that this is an efficient, low-margin industry. It's time for them to get over the fact that the American people rejected the government-run plan and to start focusing on what's really driving health care cost growth." So what are the "real drivers" of health care costs? Zirkelbach sent reporters a link to a chart on AHIP's blog called "Putting Health Plan Profits in Perspective." The chart shows, surprise, surprise, that health plan profits of $13.1 billion pale in comparison to those real drivers. The biggest such driver by far, according to AHIP's chart, is "defensive medicine" as practiced by doctors worried about getting sued, followed closely by "fraud and abuse in the entire system." The source of that chart, according to AHIP, is an October 2009 white paper by Thomson Reuters entitled, " Where Can $700 Billion be Cut Annually from the U.S. Health Care System?" The title of the report is hyperlinked, but when you click on it, you get a page of gobbledygook. I actually searched for the report and read it closely. Guess what? There is no such chart in the Thomson Reuters white paper and no breakdown of cost drivers as depicted by AHIP. In fact, had AHIP executives actually read the paper, they surely would not have brought it to the attention of the media. The insurance industry does not fare well at all. A major point of the Thomson Reuters paper is that up to $700 billion that we spend on health care in the U.S. is wasted and that a big reason for that waste is our multi-payer system of private health insurance companies. "Health care providers must deal with dozens of health benefit plans to bill successfully for services rendered," the report said. "Health plans must support systems for underwriting, claims administration, provider network contracting, and broker network management... Simplifying our health care system's administration could reduce annual health care costs by almost $300 billion." Then there were these bullet points that surely will never appear in a health insurance industry presentation: � The average U.S. hospital spends one quarter of its budget on billing and administration, nearly twice the average in Canada. American physicians spend nearly eight hours per week on paperwork and employ 1.66 clerical workers per doctor, far more than Canada. � In 1999, health administration costs totaled at least $294.3 billion in the United States, or $1,059 per capita, as compared with $307 per capita in Canada. After exclusions, administration accounted for 31 percent of health care expenditures in the United States and 16.7 percent of health care expenditures in Canada. I guess we actually should thank Zirkelbach for drawing our attention to the Thompson Reuters report. You won't find the chart AHIP says is in it, but you will find a lot of other useful information that, to AHIP's horror, might make you wonder what value private insurers actually add to the American health care system. http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mike-friends-blog/insurance-industry-flack-screws-up

Have you seen the Liger? http://cheatsheet.tumblr.com/post/5768149039/an-african-lion-and-a-manchurian-tiger-have-given

Fingers crossed the NY State Senate does the right thing tonight with the Same Sex Marriage Bill. A potential party in the Village tonight! And a wedding for me to go to next year. :-)

Was shocked to read that 12 year old girls can marry( with parental consent) in several US states:-(

I didn't know that. Yuck. Maybe in Utah. But YAY, NY State Senate!! And thanks to Gov. Cuomo. So LONG overdue. In historic vote, New York Senate approves gay marriage, 33-29 http://tinyurl.com/5u4qm55

The Empire State Bldg in Pride colors. Too bad I'm out of town this weekend to get a pic myself. http://soupsoup.tumblr.com/post/6888769044/neighborhoodr-newyork-new-york-passes-same-sex

(Janet)Was shocked to read that 12 year old girls can marry( with parental consent) in several US states:-( Several? I only see one, MA. It's 18 pretty much everywhere, dropping to 16 or 17 with parental consent. http://topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/table_marriage

I didn't find the info there, it was on Enotes. Not sure of the accuracy, but it listed several.

Here's the link: I wonder how many of the 'underage' marriages take place each year? http://www.enotes.com/everyday-law-encyclopedia/marriage-marriage-age

Anything under the legal age (usually 18) seems to require at a minimum parental consent and for certain ages (15 or 16) a court order: http://www.usmarriagelaws.com/search/united_states/teen_marriage_laws/index.shtml http://marriage.about.com/cs/teenmarriage/a/teenus.htm MA law stems from common law, i.e., yours, Janet ;-) But parental consent is required. http://marriage.uslegal.com/age-requirements/ Code Section Ch. 207�7, 24, 25 Minimum Legal Age with Parental Consent Male: not specified; Female: not specified Minimum Legal Age Without Parental Consent Male: 18; Female: 18 Comments No statutory provision for minimum age with consent. Common law prevails. If parent deserted or incapable of consent, not necessary to obtain consent.

Still seems crazy that parents could allow a child to marry:-(

The source I cited is Cornell University Law Schhol--Ivy League, one of the best in the country. I'd trust their info over enotes.;-) I wonder how many of the 'underage' marriages take place each year? I'd imagine very few. MA is a very progressive state and sometimes these laws are a holdover from olden times. You know, you sail over on the Mayflower and you're expected to set up house right away.;-)

LOL, Mari. This is just as horrible, if not more since there is no consideration for life: Afghan Girl Tricked Into Carrying Bomb, Officials Say By ALISSA J. RUBIN Published: June 26, 2011 KABUL, Afghanistan � Insurgents tricked an 8-year-old girl in a remote area of central Afghanistan into carrying a bomb wrapped in a cloth and then detonated the bomb remotely when she was close to a police vehicle, the Afghan authorities said Sunday. Only the girl was killed in the blast, which occurred in Uwshi Village of Charchino District, said Fazal Ahmad Shirzad, the police chief of Uruzguan Province. Mr. Shirzad said he believed that the girl was completely unaware that the bag that she had been given by Taliban insurgents held a bomb. The girl�s body was later �taken to a nearby security check post and the police called her relatives, � he said. In Logar Province in southeastern Afghanistan, the death toll in the bombing that occurred Saturday at a hospital in a small town rose to 37 as people who were severely injured by the blast died, said Mohammed Zarif Naibkhail, the director of public health for the province. Another 53 people were injured. �The casualties are actually way higher than that but the local villagers rushed to the hospital right after the explosion and took the bodies of their relatives to their own villages,� he said. Four NATO soldiers were also killed Sunday. Two were Spanish troops who died when an improvised explosive device detonated in Badghis Province in western Afghanistan, according to the Spanish Defense Ministry. A soldier also died in southern Afghanistan and a soldier died in eastern Afghanistan, according to a NATO statement. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/27/world/asia/27afghanistan.html?_r=1&smid=tw-nytimes&seid=auto I really feel for the Afghani women now that the US troops will be leaving. We should have concentrated our military efforts there instead of sidetracking to Iraq which was much better off with Saddam Hussein. Thank you idiot Bush!

Who did not see this coming?: Chaos in Yemen Creates Opening for Islamist Gangs ADEN, Yemen � The ancient port city of Aden is now virtually surrounded by roving gangs of Islamist militia fighters � some linked to Al Qaeda � who have captured at least two towns, stormed prisons and looted banks and military depots in southern Yemen. Yet the Yemeni government, still busy fighting unarmed protesters farther north, has done little to stop these jihadists. Members of the military, the police and local officials have fled their posts across much of southern Yemen. The country�s American-trained counterterrorism unit has not been deployed. It is no surprise that many Yemenis believe the president, Ali Abdullah Saleh, intended it all to happen. Asked whether the jihadists could soon attack or even overwhelm this strategic coastal city of 800,000, Gen. Muhammad al-Somli � the one commander who has made any serious effort to fight them � said, �I cannot rule anything out.� The governor of neighboring Abyan Province, Saleh al-Zawari, who fled almost a month ago after militants captured the provincial capital, said the area would turn into �another Taliban state like Afghanistan� if something were not done soon. Yemeni government officials blame the rising chaos on the political crisis, which has kept Mr. Saleh�s forces in Sana, the capital. But interviews with local people here suggest that Mr. Saleh himself � now recovering in Saudi Arabia from wounds suffered in an attack on his palace mosque � is at the root of the problem. His government, based in the north, has for years carried out brutal and discriminatory policies toward the people of south Yemen. The northern military commanders who dominate his army are widely hated and increasingly isolated here, incapable of carrying out the kind of counterinsurgency operations that could ease the crisis. And given the long history of backdoor collusion between Al Qaeda and Yemen�s security agencies, it is impossible to know whether Mr. Saleh or his surrogates are actively encouraging the jihadists as a scare tactic, or merely tolerating them. The United States is now urging Mr. Saleh to cede power so that the current political stalemate can come to and end, but it was not clear whether that would happen anytime soon. The attacks have grown increasingly bold. On Friday, a suicide car bomber here in Aden killed three soldiers and a civilian, and wounded a dozen others. On Wednesday, at least 40 prisoners, including some Qaeda members convicted in a plot to attack the United States Embassy in Sana, escaped after a daring raid by gunmen on a prison in the town of Mukalla, 300 miles to the east, local officials said. The militants� expansion is a serious concern for the United States, which has twice been made a target by Al Qaeda�s Yemen-based branch. So far, the American military has relied on airstrikes aimed at militant leaders, with mixed success. Thousands of refugees have streamed into Aden in recent weeks, telling shocking stories of the heavily armed jihadists who in late May captured the city of Zinjibar, a provincial capital less than an hour�s drive from here. The jihadists have delivered speeches calling for Islamic rule from mosque loudspeakers, the refugees say. Their members include men speaking in Saudi, Iraqi, and Sudanese accents. They carry white banners with the words �Ansar al Sharia� on them � a name that Qaeda leaders identified this year as an alternate name for their own organization in Yemen. Many residents of Zinjibar say they were appalled by the Yemeni military�s quick retreat from the town and other areas in Abyan Province, just north and east of here. �These Al Qaeda people � they are mostly kids, young men,� said Ali Omar al-Qurshi, 49, camped out on the cement floor of a school in Aden along with several hundred other displaced people. �Are you telling me the army can�t defeat them? It�s a very strange thing. Honestly, we feel Ali Abdullah Saleh is behind it.� Some officials from the town said that they had no choice but to leave, and they denied that they had received orders to do so. �It was a war � they came with so many armed men,� Mr. Zawari, the governor of Abyan Province, said as he sat in an empty hotel lobby here. �They took advantage of the situation. Everything is divided now, the government, the army.� Zinjibar is now an eerie and silent wasteland, the refugees say, its houses shattered by artillery and machine guns, its streets full of the dead. Dogs have begun to feed on the corpses. Only a few young men stayed on, guarding their family houses against theft. The same is true of some other villages in the area, and of Jaar, a town seized by Islamist militants in March. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/27/world/middleeast/27yemen.html?smid=tw-nytimes&seid=auto

We should have concentrated our military efforts there instead of sidetracking to Iraq which was much better off with Saddam Hussein. Difficult to defend Saddam Hussein's treatment of women... She recalled how a deaf and mute male relative was held by his penis and mocked in front of women and children. At other times, men would be lined up and threatened with beating unless they started running. Pregnant women were handcuffed even as they gave birth and guards stopped other women from helping one woman give birth, even when the baby was stuck between her legs, she said http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/dec/07/iraq.jonathansteele1 Others http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saddam_Hussein's_Iraq http://www.alterinter.org/article170.html?lang=fr

(Evelyn) Difficult to defend Saddam Hussein's treatment of women... True, but still no reason to involve ourselves in a war there.

That wasn't the point......but, you are entitiled to your opinion.

The treatment of women in Arab countries is appalling, nothing new there. And once troops leave the area the treatment of women will be even worse, if that's possible. Fact is we invaded Iraq, and we were defending ourselves with the help of an international coalition in Afghanistan.

Like I told Dorine, Moon....everyone is entitled to their own opinion..... But..... "If Saddam Hussein were still in power, this year's Arab uprisings could never have happened" http://www.slate.com/id/2289587/ Now go at it...I'm done;-)

Wonder what he's been up to? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2741405/posts

Interesting. But the comments are always the best part of these reports.

Apparently he's acknowledged two children, but they will not be in the line of accession. Shades of Camilla/Diana I wonder?

(Evelyn) But the comments are always the best part of these reports. Especially so considering with that particular website.

(Evelyn),Like I told Dorine, Moon....everyone is entitled to their own opinion..... And that includes not ignoring facts. ;-) "If Saddam Hussein were still in power, this year's Arab uprisings could never have happened" Sorry, but no one can guarantee that. That area has been fermenting for years. And I truly believe that if we had concentrated on Afghanistan instead of abandoning them for Iraq to the Taliban, it could have been the democracy to inspire the others. Next you'll say that the women's protest and driving in Saudi Arabia which is prohibited, is linked to SH? I think not.

Maybe we're just not getting Michele Bachmann. When she confuses the founding fathers for people who did NOT own slaves, and confuses John Wayne for John Wayne Gacy and Concord, New Hampshire for Concord, Massachusetts, maybe she's not really wrong, per se... maybe she just knows history differently. Maybe she even knows it better than we do. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/29/kimmel-michele-bachmann-america_n_886690.html

Aw c'mon, Moon...Not fair...Nit-picking which Huff-Po loves to do. I know, it's open season for conservative women who dare to run for office. Joe Biden is the King of Gaffes and everyone just blows it off. Even the Prez when he was running for office made a few boo-boos. Your facts? "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." � Daniel Patrick Moynihan

A friend whose sons both live in Minnesota say Michele Bachman is brilliant. I wonder why all these brilliant women play the populist stupid American role? Another one is that Gretchen Carlson on Fox, who graduated like cum laude from Stanford and studied at Oxford. Yet she plays dumb, average American on TV? Why do they do that? Makes me ill.

As I said to someone yesterday, Michelle Bachmann is another one of those women politicians who give women a bad name.

As I said to someone yesterday, Michelle Bachmann is another one of those women politicians who give women a bad name. oh please... Only liberal women are not only indefatigable ...but most importantly... *infallible*. They speak ex cathedra *rolling eyes* "As we have daily proof"

(Evelyn) They speak ex cathedra (channeling Gretchen Carlson) Why can't you just speak in good old American English. *rolls eyes* Fergodsake! ;-)

LOL et cum spiritu tu Ohhhhh

I never said anything about categorizing them as liberal or anything else! Is it my fault what ideology the most vocal and well known of those who have really been embarrassing have been in the past several years? I don't care where on the partisan divide they come from ...I'll call them like I see them. Even the liberal ones. But show me one in the last few years on par with Nutjob Bachmann, Quitter Palin and the doofy witch Tea Partier from Delaware.

Dios mio !(Spanish is my first language!)** Pl Ex Cathedra watch your language... (You're not on Facebook, ya know;-) **(Pl somebody tell me...Moon? ....how do i do the Spanish inverted ! I must be correct for EC;-) or she'll flame me too.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." Are you reminding yourself, Evelyn? ;-) (Evelyn), (Pl somebody tell me...Moon? ....how do i do the Spanish inverted ! Set your PC to the English Int'l keyboard, then apply the codes. Here they are: http://tlt.its.psu.edu/suggestions/international/accents/codeint.html

How do you set to the Int'l keyboard?

Thank you...seems easier on the iPhone. I thought I could do like �. Using the alt key and numbers on the right. Perhaps there is a website somewhere that one can do that. On the iPhone Spanish keyboard(thanks again Moon) they even correct my spelling, LOL. They do in English too.

PS. Just for the record. Listen girls, I come to Drool for laughs and to have fun, not for a "jihad." Not my style to be adversarial. Which is why I don't like this topic. On the other hand I don't like being assaulted or my beliefs belittled. I'm a nice person :-))) Don't make me change.

(Karen) I wonder why all these brilliant women play the populist stupid American role? Another one is that Gretchen Carlson on Fox, who graduated like cum laude from Stanford and studied at Oxford. Yet she plays dumb, average American on TV? Why do they do that? Those are rhetorical questions, right?

Aww, Evelyn, we are just having fun and venting here. As you know. ;-D Dorine, for the Int'l keyboard you must go through your "computer" and into the language tab.

On my PC, it's thru Control Panel.

I have a Mac. Didn't think about it being PC specific, though I'm sure there's a Mac equivalent somewhere. I do have a PC laptop I rarely use.

(Moon)Aww, Evelyn, we are just having fun and venting here. As you know. ;-D I know. But you have to understand that although other people's "opinions" might differ from yours are they are not necessarily wrong. And are not worthy of derision and vitriol....or any kind of ridicule. People who do that only embarass *themselves*....you are better than that.

And what is the verdict on opinions based on less than factual information? I'm talking in general, not necessarily here. How are they considered valid? Just because someone expresses one (an opinion)? *jonesingforphilosophicaldiscussionwithfriendsknowinganswermostlikelynotforthcoming*

And what is the verdict on opinions based on less than factual information? Depends on the source of the "factual information". Blogs, Huffington Post, Media Matters, AP, UP, Reuters, NY Times, Washington Times, NYer, NY Review of Books, Slate magazine, Salon,National Review, NBC, FOX, CBS,NPR,CNN, *Any*politician, Michael Moore, Sean Penn,George Clooney, *any* actor or Drooler;-) Get the drift? NO Leon Panetta...maybe;-)

Depends on the source of the "factual information" I see your point, but really, a *true* fact is a fact no matter where or who it comes from. When facts are distorted or manipulated to fit an agenda is perhaps more where you're coming from with that statement. But then, I expect people to be discerning and use critical thinking to help parse the information they receive instead of take it spoonfed by any media so their opinions can be as fully informed as possible. If someone bases an opinion on information that is partially or completely untrue, that undermines the validity of the opinion (IMO! ;-)) and is certainly open for disagreement. All opinions are open for disagreement, but not all uninformed/misinformed opinions are open to complete reverence and respect.... IMO. And opinions don't have to be set in stone. They can/do change either over time and/or with the accumulation of (new or old) knowledge and information. And thank you for your response. :-) So, how 'bout those outfits of Kate's in Canada?? She recycles from other events. I like that. And I don't mean repurpose a new outfit from 3. She just wears the same outfit more than once.

Facts are facts, regardless of source. But I have to disagree with your list of credible sources because you include (I'm sure you've guessed it) Fox. Let me tell you why. A couple of weeks ago, I was at the neighborhood dogpark and the discussion turned to politics. Lots of people in my area tend to be liberal (not leftists, commies or socialists, but liberal). One man with two Boston Terriers is a noted conservative (note that I didn't use any derisive term for said poltical leaning) and people all know it and don't like to get into political discussions with him. Anyway, the subject was most likely taxes and spending and he stated that Obama was responsible for running up a debt larger than all past presidents combined. Said it was a FACT. No one asked his source. Imagine my shock when a week or so later Jon Stewart does a piece on the claims made on Fox that have been debunked by an independent fact-checking org. The list ran on and on and my ears pricked up when I heard that particular statement read off verbatim as NOT TRUE. Yet this man clearly believes it and tosses it around without blinking an eye.

.....independent fact-checking org. Which one? I meant to add Bill OReilly, Beck, Matthews, Olberman (RIP),Maddow, Shultz, Lawrence ODonnell , MSNBC, Joe and Mika, CNN boys... All of them throw these facts around and let's not get started on figures. Manipulation of the latter is the new world order. I liked Kate's dresses. And I felt sorry for Halperin. I saw that segment....he was goaded on by Joe, Mika ...they were all complicit. But he uttered the "word" and had to take the hit.

Politifact.org. Pulitzer Prize winning. From the St. Petersburg Times. http://www.politifact.com/ (They ding Obama, too, so it should be ok)

Thanks, Dorine, for providing the source. Here is Politifact's annotated list of the false Fox News statements, which included "two 'Lie of the Year' awardees, five Pants on Fires and 14 False ratings." LOL! And the notorious statement made at my dogpark was from: Sarah Palin: "Look at the debt that has been accumulated in the last two years. It's more debt under this president than all those other presidents combined." � False (June 1, 2011) http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2011/jun/22/jon-stewarts-politifact-segment-annotated-edition/

Aw, come on...pols , all of em ...even POTUS manipulate facts. Latest: "Medicare under the Republican plan is going to strip your grandmother of her benefits..." WRONG! The plan doesn't start until yrs from now. Affecting the people who are 55 and under. His healthcare bill (starting in 2014)is going to cut Medicare $536 Billion (give or take a few bil). But he doesn't count that. Bless him;-) Sarah (Bless her!) is not even running for prez. Besides pols in primaries promise all kinds of "hope and change";-);-);-) Bless him.

Links that are posted here give the source. I know better than stating my opinion as a fact when discussing politics, and I don't believe I ever have. If politicians make gaffes, or speak as if they know what they're saying and the facts contradict them, well it's fine to point that out, and that includes Biden. And I stand by what I wrote: "If Saddam Hussein were still in power, this year's Arab uprisings could never have happened" Sorry, but no one can guarantee that. That area has been fermenting for years. And I truly believe that if we had concentrated on Afghanistan instead of abandoning them for Iraq to the Taliban, it could have been the democracy to inspire the others. I also believe that Bush and Cheney should be in prison. And that Hillary Clinton should be president. That's my opinion. And I'm not embarrassed by my opinions. And I never meant to insult anyone's opinion. I don't believe I criticized your opinion or anyone else. I only expressed my opinion. There's room for all. You are a nice person, Evelyn, and so are the ladies that post here.

(Evelyn) But he doesn't count that. Bush didn't count the Iraq War costs (nor Afghanistan if I'm not mistaken) into any of the budgets either (and it's still not). " The price tag has drawn criticism not only because prewar projections by the White House were closer to $50 billion, but because of the manner in which the bill was budgeted: through supplemental requests, often with little time for congressional oversight or full disclosure of how the money is allocated. �It�s a question of budgetary integrity and the degree to which you are doing this outside the normal budgetary process in a way that lacks sufficient oversight,� says CFR Chair in International Economics Douglas Holtz-Eakin, former director of the Congressional Budget Office. " http://www.cfr.org/economics/cost-iraq-war/p11943 Must be a President's (or someone's) prerogative to conveniently leave out some numbers here and there. Where I'm glad that there are going to be Medicare cuts is to the Medicare Advantage programs. The govt is paying private companies 14% more per person over regular Medicare costs to administer. Why not just have everyone on regular Medicare and save money? And theree's supposed to be a provision to fight fraud harder, which is also a good thing. There is too much of that. Sarah (Bless her!) is not even running for prez. Which clearly makes that guy appear even more ignorant, quoting someone who's clueless and really doesn't matter in the scheme of political things (so far). (Moon) I also believe that Bush and Cheney should be in prison. They should be hauled before the ICC right behind Milosevic and Gaddafi (if they can get him there).

I understand , Moon. There are some who hold the belief that Pres Bush, Cheney, the Israelis, and the Jewish Lobby all merged to mastermind 9/11 With corresponding sources (books, pamphlets, documentaries by Michael Moore???) to prove it. Also ,others say the Republicans planted the Blue Dress. With same type of sources as above. You can find anything to prove an opinion. I'll telling ya, we have horns!

(Dorine)Why not just have everyone on regular Medicare and save money? There are some seniors who fall through the cracks, can't qualify for Medicaid and can't affored the Medicare 20% co-payment. Medicare Advantage takes care of the latter and those seniors don't have to pay the co-insurance. They pay a copayment every time they go to see a medical practitioner. (Dorine)Where I'm glad that there are going to be Medicare cuts is to the Medicare Advantage programs. No! I think it should be Home Health;-D

Why do you say that about home health?? It is being affected significantly here, but by Medicaid reimbursement changes. (Dorine)Why not just have everyone on regular Medicare and save money? (Evelyn) There are some seniors who fall through the cracks, can't qualify for Medicaid and can't affored the Medicare 20% co-payment. Medicare Advantage takes care of the latter and those seniors don't have to pay the co-insurance. They pay a copayment every time they go to see a medical practitioner. I'm not sure exactly what you're saying. Are you saying it functions as a supplemental insurance or has that component? A Medigap program? If so, then no, it's not. Medicare Advantage is simply a Medicare HMO/PPO.

I'll say one thing about being a patient with a Medicare Advantage plan if you come to where I work, because of whatever the reimbursement rate is for at least 2 of the ones that we take (Oxford/MediBlue), you won't get the same amount of therapy that you would if you had straight Medicare. My OT therapy is limited to a half hour and PT an hour per day (a potential decrease of up to 45 mins for me and 20 mins for PT). Also, the plan will decide when they want to cut you off from therapy and subsequently send you home. From my perspective, it's also extra paperwork vs regular Medicare. It's great for people who don't have catastrophic illnesses. I hate when severe stroke patients come in with it, because they don't get all they need.

Medicare Advantage is simply a Medicare HMO/PPO. True. But the person does not make any insurance payment. MA gets a gov't subsidy for the people who can't afford to take insurance and don't qualify for Medicaid. I don't know how else to explain this. It's fair and the people who go into it know what it is. You excluded, Home Health is a boon-doggle. There's on on every corner. Both my parents were clients and it was a waste of time & mooney. I see them come to my condo area and the loll around walking the clients down the street. If it's raining they just sit and chat. You excluded, of course. They are ripping off the gov't. I plan to tell that to Sen Coburn (AKA Dr No;-) when he comes to a town hall here next week. Put it on the list to cut. As far as I'm concern they are equivalent to the Wheelchair scooters that Medicare apparently pays for at The Scooter Store on TV Scandalous.

All this talk about Medicare, when it should all be universal healthcare!!! (Evelyn), You can find anything to prove an opinion. True. But a person has to be discerning when bombarded with "proofs." Such things as invading Iraq because Bush said they had WOMD, and not letting NATO and UN in Iraq at the time, finish their search. In the end, no WOMD were found. But many innocents were dead. And, our troops were being pulled from Afghanistan, where the Int'l coalition had fallen apart because our allies did not approve of the Iraqi invasion. I know, we will never agree on this, Evelyn. In this case, we each believe in different facts. ;-D

I haven't done home care in about 11 yrs (though yes, I worked for a home care company for several years in the business end). I agree some home therapists are crap. Some aren't (and you're right it wasn't me). I went above and beyond frankly in many cases. Wish I hadn't sometimes in retrospect. I could've gotten my paperwork done a bit sooner rather than spending an entire Sunday every week doing it and the patients would've still had decent therapy. Home care is necessary for many people, esp in this city if people don't want to stay in nursing homes (there are only so many beds), but I am more than aware that the ethics of it all get stretched. Believe me, I *know*. It's in every setting. Frankly, more MD's should be aware of home care and order it for patients before they fall and break something. It's a lot cheaper for the healthcare industry in that respect to keep someone home and work on strengthening and balance than to pay for surgeries, inpatient nursing and therapy after they fall....and potentially have to stay in long term care significantly more dependent than they were. And home care doesn't consist of just therapy. There are home health aides/home attendants, too (which Medicare covers for 20 hrs/wk with M'caid picking up more - though not nearly as much as they used to starting this year). Unfortunately there's been fraud with some agencies billing for falsified visits, etc. They had a big sweep a couple of years ago with quite a few agencies here who were getting false documentation for aides, faking billing, things like that. Home care services are being cut from Medicaid already, which has been a bit of a problem from a discharge plan standpoint, especially for the people 80-85+, who live alone in multifloor walkups, which is a big chunk of our patient load. I can't speak about the scooters, but I know that it's significantly harder to get specialized wheelchairs for patients through Medicare/Medicaid. Just the paperwork to start with. I was just reading some business blog where it was discussing healthcare and someone made a comment that most of the ills of the healthcare system would be solved financially if no illegal immigrants were treated (for free).

I know nothing of the options of healthcare(or not) in the US, but I'm just glad we have the NHS, even with its shortcomings, here in the UK. My 26 year old son recently had his appendix removed, and has problems with his liver now, and all tests etc are done free of charge. Obviously, we have the option of private healthcare too.

The illegals go to the emergency room except for some church sponsored clinics. Here Catholic Charities runs a medical and dental clinic and takes anyone legals and illegals. They are about to get introuble because it is against the law. I tutor Hispanic children that get medical care . I feel that PT (which is essential for recovery) should be given in a rehab center with a proper protocol under supervision. They could run a van with the funds they would save cutting down on individual in-home personnel. Moon, dear, Congress was briefed on the pre-war intel, and g ave consent. They're screaming now because they were not consulted for the Libya conflict, as they were for Iraq.

Obviously, we have the option of private healthcare too. Which many of my friends in the UK and Canada have; they can see whom they want w/o prior permission at their decretion. They don't have to seek approval to see a consultant (specialist)or wait for their turn for treatment or surgery. Of course, they have to pay monthly insurance fees in addition to the extra taxes. Some clinics in Montana and Wisconsin accept Canadian insurance. Canadians are often treated by specialists there. AS they are at MD Anderson and Sloan -Kettering Cancer Centers.

They can also get meds , treatments and tests that are not available under the NHS guidelines. Which is understandable since there is just a certain amt of government funds available.

Moon, dear, Congress was briefed on the pre-war intel, and g ave consent. The same bad, manipulated, cherry picked pre-war intel that said there were WMD making facilities? The same bad pre-war intel that said Saddam was trying to buy yellowcake uranium for bombmaking that the CIA & Administration knew at that point was fake? I have another Republican friend that uses this same (flawed IMO) reasoning when she tries to defend the war justification. I think I might have some sourced facts for you... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niger_uranium_forgeries Initial doubts The classified documents detailing an Iraqi approach to purchase yellowcake uranium from Niger were considered dubious by some analysts in U.S. intelligence, according to news accounts. By early 2002, separate investigations by both the CIA and the US State Department had found the documents to be inaccurate. Days before the Iraq invasion, the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) voiced serious doubt on the authenticity of the documents to the U.N. Security Council, judging them counterfeit. [edit] "Sixteen Words" controversy in 2003 State of the Union In his January 2003 State of the Union speech, U.S. President George W. Bush said, "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."[2] This single sentence is known now as "Sixteen Words".[3] The administration later conceded that evidence in support of the claim was inconclusive and stated, "These sixteen words should never have been included." The administration attributed the error to the CIA.[4] In mid-2003, the U.S. government declassified the 2002 National Intelligence Estimate, which contained a dissenting opinion published by the U.S. Department of State stating that the intelligence connecting Niger to Saddam Hussein was "highly suspect," primarily because State Department's intelligence agency analysts did not believe that Niger would be likely to engage in such a transaction due to a French consortium which maintained close control over the Nigerien uranium industry.[5] According to The Washington Post, when occupying troops found no evidence of a current nuclear program, the statement and how it came to be in the speech became a focus for critics in Washington and foreign capitals to press the case that the White House manipulated facts to take the United States to war. The Post reported, "Dozens of interviews with current and former intelligence officials and policymakers in the United States, Britain, France and Italy show that the Bush administration disregarded key information available at the time showing that the Iraq-Niger claim was highly questionable." [6] With the release of the 2002 NIE report, the Bush administration was criticized for including the statement in the State of the Union despite CIA and State Department reports questioning its veracity. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ And I've posted, with documentation (I have a whole book on it from one of the inspectors) when this subject came up before, that the UN inspectors on the ground at the time the war started and were not finding any evidence of a WMD program were told to get out immediately or they were going to be hit when the bombing started, planned within a couple of days. And they should be screaming about Libya. There's no way in hell we should be involved.

I wanted to put this in different post I feel that PT (which is essential for recovery) should be given in a rehab center with a proper protocol under supervision. They could run a van with the funds they would save cutting down on individual in-home personnel. (I'm sure you meant to include OT in that sentence as well. :-)) Well, actually, I highly recommend some home care for at least short periods of time after d/c from a rehab facility for a safety evaluation to start with, or if nothing else. We have no idea what a person's home looks like, they are at times not the best historians and it's very possible that there are physical safety issues (loose throw rugs, wires about, hoarding) that need addressing that could potentially land them back in the hospital. Also, in my case, I have a lot of patients from Chinatown who live in multifloor walkups and have non-standard bathtubs, that are significantly taller than regular ones and are not infrequently in their kitchen or out in some other room in the common hallway. There is no way I can practice that with them in the facility. I can't even order any equipment for them (such as a shower chair) and be assured that, A) a standard or any kind of shower chair would even fit in the tub and B) they can get in the tub in the first place. Also, my scheduled time with patients rarely allows me to do most kinds of community reentry activities that the patient has been accustomed to doing prior to admission to the hospital and they have a reasonable expectation of doing again. It's much easier to help them after seeing what they need to be doing first hand and where so I can make adaptations and help them make adjustments to their routine to, at the least, save them some energy so they can get what they need to do done. It's a shame that we no longer are paid for doing home evals prior to the patient being d/c'd from the inpatient setting. That was soooo useful in prepping them to get home and we could zero in on certain things depending on what we found at the home. Or we could hold the d/c if we found a very unsafe living situation as happened from time to time. Do I think every patient needs home care? No. Many of mine do though, even if just for a short time. And also, with orthopedic and stroke patients, I always tell them that they should go to outpatient therapy within 2 weeks of discharge, after a short period of home care because they'll have access to better equipment than they'd get with home therapy. Glad you'd like to put a bunch of therapists out of work. Had you given it any thought at the time in 1997 and felt the same way, I'd have you to thank for supporting the OBRA law of 1997 which changed the Medicare reimbursement structure (esp for therapy) for nursing homes (or SNF's, skilled nursing facilities) and cost me and a ton of therapists our jobs. I was at a facility in CT working with about 25 other therapists and as of Dec 31 I was suddenly out of a job (along with half the therapy staff) with virtually nowhere to go (I was doing contract work, they paid for my housing and going to my house in FL was not an option at that time because there were NO jobs in Florida either after that). I ended up in NY working a contract with kids despite having no experience, but they provided housing. I lasted a month in that job because I picked up chicken pox from one of the kids...and I hated it. I did home care for a while after that.

But Janet, hasn't the NHS been having financial difficulty?

(Evelyn), Moon, dear, Congress was briefed on the pre-war intel, and g ave consent. They're screaming now because they were not consulted for the Libya conflict, as they were for Iraq. (Dorine), The same bad, manipulated, cherry picked pre-war intel that said there were WMD making facilities? The same bad pre-war intel that said Saddam was trying to buy yellowcake uranium for bombmaking that the CIA & Administration knew at that point was fake? Thanks for the link, Dorine. I had a problem with then NY Senator Hillary Clinton voting in Congress. But I understood her reasoning. Her husband had been president, and she assumed Bush had the correct intel on WMD, because she knew that Bill would have never started a war or invaded a country without ABSOLUTE proof. (Janet), I know nothing of the options of healthcare(or not) in the US, but I'm just glad we have the NHS, even with its shortcomings, here in the UK. It's crazy not to have it here. I see it as a human's right issue.

(Dorine)But Janet, hasn't the NHS been having financial difficulty? Not as such, but the way it operates is changing in England and Wales. The new government plan to give more powers to GPs(local general practices), rather than the local Healthcare Trusts. Doesn't apply in Scotland, so there may be others here to know more about the proposed changes than me. There is also the issue of 'Postcode Lottery', where a treatment/drugs may be funded by one authority, by denied by another.

Apologies for the grammatical errors in my last post- I didn't get much sleep last night:-(

Didn't notice. So there are regional "trusts" that administer the funds and services for a certain area? (Evelyn) I tutor Hispanic children that get medical care In what? And where? I feel that PT (which is essential for recovery) should be given in a rehab center with a proper protocol under supervision. I can tell you firsthand that sometimes it's no better than anywhere else (at least in skilled nursing facilities). There are bad/mediocre therapists everywhere. Probably not so much at the bigger rehab institutions though, such as these... http://health.usnews.com/best-hospitals/rankings/rehabilitation .

Optimum word" Proper supervision. Evelyn) I tutor Hispanic children that get medical care In what? And where? A state program for children:Sooner Care also a community medical care unit Shusterman Center at the university. I think everyone should have access to medical care. Mandated and Means Tested. So there are regional "trusts" that administer the funds and services for a certain area? Probably like the state grants for Medicaid that the Ryan plan wants. Let the states allocate the funds from the Feds and administer it.

A state program for children:Sooner Care also a community medical care unit Shusterman Center at the university. Yes, but in what subject/area are you tutoring them in? English? Math? Spanish? ;-) So there are regional "trusts" that administer the funds and services for a certain area? (Evelyn) Probably like the state grants for Medicaid that the Ryan plan wants. Let the states allocate the funds from the Feds and administer it. I was thinking they were more along the lines of the Medicare regional fiscal intermediaries we already have. Optimum word" Proper supervision. Unfortunately it's a matter of you take who you can get depending on where you work.

Yes, but in what subject/area are you tutoring them in? English? Math? Spanish? ;-) LOL. After school program. Only little guys...3rd and 4th grades . Reading and math ("times tables".) Hey, learning to read is hard. Number conscepts is worse. None of their parents speak English and can't help with homework so that's where we come in as a volunteer. There are six of us. I speak in English except when they don't comprehend a word then I tell them the meaning in spanish. Not all are illegals, but most have only been here a few yrs. They're smart , but have a comprehension problem. I miss them during the summer.

I know it's said people have shorter attention spans for reading, but this seems to be a tad excessive for brevity. This was the whole article at Yahoo News... Actor Hugh Grant says he has been called as a witness by the police into the hacking scandal AP � Wed, Jul 6, 2011 LONDON (AP) � Actor Hugh Grant says he has been called as a witness by the police into the hacking scandal. http://news.yahoo.com/actor-hugh-grant-says-called-witness-police-hacking-151445832.html

Sorta taints him, doesn't it? All people will remember is Hugh Grant= Hacking scandal. I wonder if they will print any dismissal.

Not at all actually. He's the one who wiretapped one of the reporters who admitted doing the wiretapping scheme. http://tonicgossip.com/2011/04/13/hugh-grant-secretly-taped-news-of-the-world-reporter/

Heroic. Sweet revenge. Wonder how he knew which tabloid they repped. (Where do you find these obscure websites, Dorine.)

Google. :-)

The News of the World is being closed down by Rupert Murdoch- I guess they're jumping before being pushed! -Shameful 'journalism'!!

The surprise to me is that they had a 2.66 million readers, and employed 200 staff. Some people must have like that trash.

No different than the National Enquirer I suppose.

Although I intensely dislike NOW, it is still a newspaper, of sorts. The NQ is more of a comic book, lol!;-)

The NQ is more of a comic book, lol!;-) How true. Seriously. Although i must admit I read it when I'm in the supermarket queue. Some alien from outer space is always about to invade us. However, they did break the John Edwards case.

(Ev)However, they did break the John Edwards case. Yep, and the Enquirer has actually broken a lot of stories which traditional outlets initially declined to cover--Edwards, Limbaugh, Dole, OJ Simpson, etc. Here are some. They may not be pretty, but I don't think I'd put them in the NOW category: http://www.newworldorderreport.com/News/tabid/266/ID/2732/7-Stories-The-National-Enquirer-Actually-Got-Right.aspx

I didn't even know Dole had been married before, nevermind a mistress. didn't they break the Lewinsky story too?

It looks as though the NOW scandal is just at the beginning. Some papers are referring to it as Britain's Watergate. David Cameron will be a worried man, with his links to some of the main players. I wonder what the (hopefully) retrieved email archive will show?