(Heide) Are we ready for our next one? Oh, yes *clap clap* ! What shall it be, ATA, AZ or other?

Please check out Kirsten's new and improved versions of our past film discussions. She has added lots of gorgeous Snappies from the films to illustrate points made in the discussion. This link will take you to the index: http://www.firth.com/filmdis/disindex.htm Wonderful job, Kirsten!

For the next discussion, I will go with whichever: AZ or ATA, but I do like the idea that ATA is more readily available to those currently participating. If that's the case, then we would do AZ next, right? ;-D

Shall we set a date for our discussion of ATA? (am getting antsy, now that I've read the script - aha!!)

Aha indeed! What insights await!

Stumbled across this in The Guardian and it reminded me of 3DOR, and I'll be adding the info to my Cliff's Notes. ;-D Here's the url for viewing the entire article: http://www.newsunlimited.co.uk/Print/0,3858,3903699,00.html Do you see this building and hear Julie Andrews? No? Maybe you should. Jonathan Glancey on the elusive relationship between architecture and music Monday September 20, 1999 The Guardian When I hear the words "frozen music" to describe architecture, I think of that warm Hindu aphorism, "an arch never sleeps". For arches, and timbers, and columns, and thus the buildings they make up, are never quite still and certainly not frozen. (Anyone who says "What about igloos?" can kindly leave this column.) Timbers decay. Moss grows in cracks between window frames and walls. Floors expand with summer heat. Mice scratch under floorboards, bats and house martins flit from attics and eaves. Rain drums on roofs and wind howls in lift shafts. The idea of architecture as frozen music came from German writers - Goethe (conversations with Eckermann) and Schelling (Philosophie der Kunst) - because it was in Germany, above all, that architects strove to create monuments of stillness. Yet they failed. The lofty arches of Cologne cathedral are almost asleep, but if frosty are not frozen; and though the great flat-roofed pavilion of Mies van der Rohe's New National Gallery in Berlin is as cool as architecture gets, it is still thawed by the moods of t e weather, of sunlight modulating its icy, geometric perfection. Yet architecture can be musical. When you encounter a building, especially one you're not familiar with, it feels as if it has a life, a character and, somewhere between arches, columns, RSJs and I-beams, a music of its own. [...] In the sixth century BC Pythagoras established (or posited) the mathematical equivalents of musical intervals. By extension, it would almost be possible to imagine a building, like a Greek temple, its design adhering to strict mathematical rules, being read like a musical score. Interesting, but you wouldn't get anything more exciting than a collection of incomprehensible notes or, at best, a repeated scale. And the Parthenon, I'm sure you'll agree, is a little more interesting than Julie Andrews singing o-Re-Mi. In fact, it was buildings like the Parthenon that Goethe and Schelling would have been thinking of when they talked of architecture as "frozen music". Since then, we have learnt a lot more about the ideas temples like the Parthenon were designed to express. Far from being frozen, Greek temples were representations on one level (this idea is still fluttering in the realm of theory) of warships, on which the vessel of the Greek state depended. Entasis - the swelling of Greek columns designed, so we say, to ensure that the columns appear forever straight - was also a way of suggesting the billowing sails of a warship. You don't have to believe this, but if you can feel the sense of the idea, then you can also hear the music of the Parthenon. We might try to listen to the real music of individual buildings, yet when it comes to architecture, our ears are largely pre-programmed. Film directors and radio producers have helped create aural cliches. Whenever we are shown a classical building, whether it's a 16th-century Florentine palazzo, a Palladian villa, or a crescent in Bath or Edinburgh, we hear Vivaldi or Bach. Woody Allen has single-handedly welded Gershwin's Porgy & Bess to the Manhattan skyline. Modern Movement designs by Le Corbusier or Walter Gropius must be accompanied by Stravinsky. I hear the music of Pierre Boulez (as well as CRS sirens and a babel of tourist languages) as I walk past the Pompidou Centre. Can we walk into a medieval cathedral without hearing monkish plainchant in our mind's ear, or look at pictures of 70s suburban houses (not a daily occurrence, mind you) and not think, thanks to Mike Leigh and Alison Steadman, of Demis Roussos singing "For ever and ever and ever..." over and over again? We do this sort of thing all the time, with landscapes and townscapes as well as architecture. If I see a black-and-white film of southern English wealds and downs, with unspoiled timber-framed farmhouses and ploughs driven across Paul Nash fields by heavy horses, I hear William Walton's Spitfire Prelude and Fugue (and, expect to see one of those exquisite aircraft arc over a hill, a machine with a truly wizard - Merlin - music of its own). When I've taken the train from Fenchurch Street to Southend and l oked over East End chimneytops and over the goalposts that define Hackney Marshes, my head fills with old cockney music-hall songs. Perhaps it shouldn't in these hippity-hoppity times, but it does and I can't help hearing that old refrain "With a ladder and some glasses/ You could see to Hackney Marshes/ If it wasn't for the houses in between". Sometimes, though, your ears can escape their conditioning. As a student, I came across Paul Beaver and Bernie Krauss's Gandharva, an ethereal mix of voices for pipe organ and saxophone recorded in the cavernous interior of St John the Divine, New York. This unlikely meeting of places, people and instruments is quite beautiful in its New Age way and does all it possibly could to bring the building and the score of the composers together. Who knows - perhaps some headphoned teenager found the same perfect orrespondence between Sitting on Top of the World by Brandy & Coke and the Rogers' open-plan house in Chelsea. There is no science or exactitude in any of this. The relationship between architecture and music is loose and elusive, and based really on personal association. It is an open book, a theme to explore and as far from frozen as a pyramid is from an igloo.

Excellent, Karen, thank you. You really can be trusted to unearth the most interesting articles :-) I'll make a note of that Hindu aphorism.

So when are we going to set a date to start that farmland classic, A Thousand Acres?

Anytime after the 5th of October, please.

Just checked the TV Now site and saw that ATA will be playing in prime time as follows: Mon Oct 11 08:00P ENC- Encore Regular

I don't know why I get excited whenever I see a Colin movie get aired on TV even when I've already seen the video innumerable times. Even a film like ATA....I shall watch on 10/11. But let's not wait that long to discuss here. I was going to say start the discussion Monday but I'm sure we can wait 'til Wednesday. Can't wait to find out how many of you found Jess redeemable. And what you really think of Colin's acting. Oh, must we talk about those women too? Too confusing. I still don't know if this was a film about love and hate or love and forgiveness.

Wednesday, October 6th, is fine with me....thought the film was about hog farming. ;-D

(Heide) Oh, must we talk about those women too? Karen)...thought the film was about hog farming. ; Hey...this film is heavy-duty....are we gonna talk about the whole film or just Jess :-))

I hated Jessica L in this movie - looked far too old for the part!

Think of it as an illustration of the idea that "Women of a Certain Age Need Love too!!" ... and should be cast more often in those parts which, now, are most often peopled by bimbos who couldn't act their way out of a paper bag. :-D

(Karen) thought the film was about hog farming. ;-D Bingo! I think you're right. (Evelyn) are we gonna talk about the whole film or just Jess :-)) Oh, I'd much rather just talk about Jess....Jess in his blue jeans, Jess in his running gear, Jess in his red shirt, Jess without his red shirt. But I dont' think we'll be able to avoid the rest of the story. Hey, we can try! ;-) (Marcia) Jessica L in this movie - looked far too old for the part! I was kind of surprised how much older she looked in this film than in films past. But her acting was far superior to Michelle Pfeiffer's, I thought. (KJ) Think of it as an illustration of the idea that "Women of a Certain Age Need Love too!!" ... and should be cast more often in those parts which, now, are most often peopled by bimbos who couldn't act their way out of a paper bag. :-D Couldn't agree more (since I'm of that certain age too). Isn't it interesting though that Colin in some interview mentioned "the charms of Michelle Pfeiffer but we did not hear him mention Jessica Lange though she was the one he had his love scenes with. Oh no! Colin, an age-ist pig?! ;-)

Oh no! Colin, an age-ist pig?! ;-) Karen did say the film is about hog farming. :-) (You will all hate my comments on this film, since I have NEVER seen Colin act so badly in a film)

Moon, as long as you bring your comments here, I don't care what you say. And you'll probably find you're not alone in your opinion.

(Heide)I was kind of surprised how much older she looked in this film than in films past. But her acting was far superior to Michelle Pfeiffer's, I thought. I thoroughly agree. I have really liked M.P's work in some of her films but thought she was too "one-note" angry throughout this entire film. It just wasn't believable to me. At least J.L. showed some interesting reactions and character development. (Moon) I have NEVER seen Colin act so badly in a film Can't say I disagree with you here. I remember how disappointed I was when I first saw this film. I thought CF was a bit wooden and uninteresting - not at all like his usual performances. But can't fault his looks too much ;-)

Once we start talking about character development and stuff like that in ATA, I would suspect that the biggest element to raise its ugly head here will be the effects of cut-throat editing. Indeed, we might even make comparisons between its effect on this film and vs.that on MLSF! ;-)

I think it's hard to talk about character development with a movie that didn't have one. I read the book then saw the movie (btw, HATED the book too.) How it ever won the Pulitzer is beyond me. What I found unrealistic in it (other than a total ripoff of King Lear) is that there is no resolution. i.e. the girls accusing the father of abuse. When Jason Robards runs into the corn field. Hey, let him go!

(Moon) I have NEVER seen Colin act so badly in a film I think he did not ACT at all! I had a feeling when I was watching the movie that he was an outsider to others, as an actor and as Jess. I still managed to rewind the tape many short times just to see Jess ( or ODB as fact). I can't help it, he was just irresistible no matter whom he played :-))

(Laura) other than a total ripoff of King Lear So? Would that mean you would dismiss West Side Story as being a total ripoff of Romeo & Juliet? ;-D My book says Shakespeare "ripped off" King Lear from a variety of sources, one was an anonymous play entitled "The True Chronicle of King Leir and His Three Daughters," while the Gloucester subplot (of the blind king) came from Sir Philip Sidney's "Arcadia." To me, the important thing is whether the author does it well or provides a new or interesting angle on the story. Using this measure, I didn't care for Jane Smiley's book. ;-D

To me, the important thing is whether the author does it well or provides a new or interesting angle on the story. Using this measure, I didn't care for Jane Smiley's book. ;-D Perhaps you stated it better than me. You're right, she didn't provide a new or interesting angle. She rehashed King Lear I don't go for supressed memory either, I think that is just psychologist mumbo jumbo and it screws up a lot of innocent people. And Karen, please, out of all of Shakespeare's tragic plays, Romeo & Juliet is my LEAST favorite. I thought West Side Story actually did justice to it! (my being a Natalie Wood fan notwithstanding:-p) One thing I hated about the book is at the very beginning, you haven't a clue who is narrating the story for geez, at least 60-70 pages! I think the relationship Ginny has with her husband was the only sane relationship she could ever hope to have and she blew that one! I couldn't feel sorry for the sisters. (However, the poisoned pickeled peppers? THAT was hysterical.) I still don't understand how (or what the parameters were) for Jane Smiley to win the Pulitzer. I've read another one of her books, quite a departure from A thousand Acres, called Duplicate Keys it was an interesting read. There is so much to this movie that is missing that in the book could've redeemed it. Ginny's complete hatred of Rose when Jess went to "the pretty one". And the use of Rose's girls as Ginny's own, I think that could've been a very good subplot.

(Laura) There is so much to this movie that is missing that in the book could've redeemed it. Believe it or not, the script I have follows the book much more closely. The poisoned sausages and sauerkraut begin and end the film, emphasizing the hatred that is missing. I bought the script to see what if anything might have interested Colin about doing this film. Haven't we all wondered about scenes that were edited out? If anyone would like to read it, contact me.

(Evelyn) are we gonna talk about the whole film or just Jess :-) A discussion about Jess alone would take no time at all (due to cutthroat editing referenced by KJ). I'd like to talk about the whole film, the book and the script. I have lots of questions and Karen answered one already: the script I have follows the book much more closely. My first reaction to the film was one of disappointment because the movie was *such* a superficial version of the book (which, though not my favorite, I found a quick and interesting read. However, I knew ODB was playing Jess when I read it which may have influenced my opinion ;-) I had also never read King Lear). There were no subplots. I didn't like the fact that it was set in the present, not in 1979. I initially thought Colin's Jess was OK, but changed my mind after subsequent viewings. He came across so...flat, so blah, especially in the I-can't-believe-you-don't-know-about-the-water scene. But I'm getting ahead of things. Will watch the video again before Friday. (Heide) Even a film like ATA....I shall watch on 10/11 Hey, don't forget who's playing on MNF that day! Does your TV have 'picture in picture'?

I can flip to the game during the scenes Jess isn't in. Although of course if they're losing that may mean I should flip to the game during the scenes Jess is in.

Karen, I would like to read the script, but how could we manage that?

I love the new Firth pic at the door to drool :-)

(Gi)I love the new Firth pic at the door to drool :-) Me too. Almost worth discussing the film:-)

Wednesday, 10/6 is nigh. So glad we managed to wait to talk about this film 'til then. ;-) Dug out that old Vogue article from two years back and thought I'd re-type some of Colin's comments about Jess: Reminded of a friend who, like Jess, lost his mother early. "He needed to make every woman fall in love with him. He would cry with all of them and announce every time, 'That's the first time I've cried since my mother died.' I don't believe that was cynical. He was licking his wounds with every woman he met." "You might see that (pouring on sensitivity with both women) as his narcissism, but I see it as his pride in his sensitivity. He needs to convince himself that he is sensitive. I don't believe it's cynical. He actually appealed to me the most when he became violent, because that is when he is most honest."

Well...as long as we're digging out the old stuff... Before we start trashing ATA..I have the April '98 Movieline Critcs' Choice and while it ranked 94th in the 100 movies ranked ,La Times , Philly Inquirer, and Newsweek gave it two stars. (Recommended).

(CF) He would cry with all of them and announce every time, 'That's the first time I've cried since my mother died.' I don't believe that was cynical. He was licking his wounds with every woman he met." B!@#$%^& That's a manipulative action if I've ever seen one. He wants to control the women and he can do that best by wearing his heart/sensitivities on his sleeve. He's being the Alan Alda figure of the 1980s. ;-D

Agree with Karen that the crying/sensitivity behavior is certainly cynical, if not consciously so at least in the sense that one continues to rely on other people for emotional support *at the expense of the other's needs and without examining ones own* which is how children treat parents, i.e., this is not a mature act. To turn to the character of Jess, he is certainly the Mr. Rat of ATA although he is made to seem charming and attractive (certainly to us). But that is the most dangerous kind. I'm at a disadvantage since I haven't read the book and don't know anything about how they edited the film, but the impression I have simply from watching ATA is that they threw in Jess to supply the sexual buzz since there is none from the other male characters. He makes no major contribution to the dramatic unfolding of the plot esp since he just fades away at the end. What would have added tension would be conflict within Jessica Lange between her attachment to her husband and t her adventure with Jess. As far as we know, her husband never finds out, so within the movie it's just a little bit on the side to titillate (sp?) the audience. I thought more should have been made of the husbands--one is a jerk, the other a drone, and that's that. But let's think about these men who have put their adult lives into working their wives' father's farm without any guarantee that they would ever be more than glorified sharecroppers. What would that do to a man's sense of self and his rel tionship with the wife on whose father he is completely dependent in a precarious business. I thought Jessica's husband was very well played (sorry can't remember the character's or the actor's name--a Carridine), and much more could have been done here. What would have added to that drama would have been tension between the sisters over rival *illegitimate* relationships with the same man. Apparently that occurs in the book but wasn't brought out in the movie. So what you have is just a little thrill with silly dialogue and poorly evoked motives. They would have been better off (IMH drooler's O) to have cut the dialogue and given us a good deal more sex. In sum, ATA's main value is as a source of snappies, and the one at the head of the main page is a good one. Have you noticed that if you cover up everything but the face, you will see Darcy looking at Elizabeth? IMO the best snappy material occurs just before this pic when Jess arrives at the kitchen door and you see him from JL's point of view. He's leaning against the door frame and you see him down to about knee level. His body makes a beautiful S curve, and he looks great in that shirt--how many people look good in dark gray. Add the smile and the voice when he says, "Do you want to take a walk?" and "About a minute." Well, that's what it's all about, isn't it, fellow droolers. Too much here. Thanks for your indulgence. I'm new to this list, and the joy of being able to deconstruct CF's every eyeblink to sympathetic listeners is almost more than I can handle.

Welcome Cymbeline....Read your posting re: MLSF.Bless you...you tackled the bad weather to go to Long Island(?) to see the film. Join the crowd that "despite rain, sleet etc.."we GO!! (Cymbeline)I have simply from watching ATA is that they threw in Jess to supply the sexual buzz since there is none from the other male characters Sadly he didn't IMO he didn't deliver that buzz... the Dallas Morning News reported...he was a "lustless lug".Maybe it was chemistry that was lacking. ...her husband never finds out, so within the movie it's just a little bit on the side to titillate (sp?) the audience. I don't think Ty ever knew...but I believe Pete did. I thought Jessica's husband was very well played (sorry can't remember the character's or the actor's name--a Carridine), and much more could have been done here. His part was singled out by the critics as outstanding. Actually, that was one of the main criticisms of the film...all weak men. (On purpose by Jane Smiley?) Larry (Daddy) was particularly irritating. Paul Newman had been the first choice and I think he would have played the role differently(he was too expensive).... (I bet he was glad he didn't get involved with the whole bunch!)

(Evelyn)Actually, that was one of the main criticisms of the film...all weak men. (On purpose by Jane Smiley?) No, IMO, it was the film editor. The story was molded into the "Jessica and Michelle Oscar Show." Guess the joke was on them. According to Laura, ATA [the book] is just an updated King Lear. Ginny, Rose and Larry are the main characters in the book as well as the movie. Jess, however, was more dominant in the book. Although we "see" him through Ginny's eyes (it was written from her perspective), there is a better understanding of his character and the wounds CF references in one of the quotes Heide posted (thanks, BTW). (Cymbeline) they threw in Jess to supply the sexual buzz I see how you arrived at this conclusion. This is on heckuva dark film about deceit, manipulation (lots of that going on) and hatred. I find the most fascinating character to be Larry. What's up with him? First he gives the kids the farm, then he wants it back. First he shuts Caroline out, then treats her as if she's his only child. He did more flip-flops than a fish in a frying pan. Your thoughts? I have my own ideas but want to hear everyone else's. Re: the acting--thought Jessica did a yeoman's job. Michelle's constant frown and angry monotone started wearing on me toward the end. Jason captured Larry, all right (Paul Newman? That would have been something to see); Keith was great as Ty. Colin and Kevin [Pete] were just kind of...there. Colin did his usual great job of conveying emotion with those soulful eyes of his, but we didn't get enough information about Jess' character to intepret those emotions in some way (except the scene in which Gi ny tells him she loves him. You sure could tell he didn't love her). Like Colin, Jess appealed to me most when he whacked his father. Jennifer J-L drove me nuts as Caroline. Karen, how did the script treat the vegetable garden scene between Ginny and Jess (the one in which she's planting the tomatos and they discuss what happened to his mother)? Was it included? Re: CF's accent--it wavered mightily in the opening sequence, when he first reunites with Ginny and Rose. BTW, his lips don't say "it's the Cook girls." Wonder why they dubbed it over? In the rest of the movie, it was much stronger but it seemed to take some energy away from his acting. Karen, was it you who said (months ago) that he sounded like Wm. Shatner? :-D Wonder why they left in that sole reference to Loren ("frick and frack") when they cut him out of the rest of the movie? Cymbeline, didn't you find that confusing? Enough rambling for now!

(Cymbeline) I'm at a disadvantage since I haven't read the book and don't know anything about how they edited the film.. Perhaps that gives you an advantage. We'll get mired in talking about the book and doncha know we'll bring King Lear into the mix too. You'll be able to judge the film "as is" - no extra baggage. There is no internal conflict shown by Ginny at all regarding her adultery. Seems rather unnatural. It's true she's betrayed by her husband (and everyone else) but she's not aware of that betrayal yet at the time she's betraying him with Jess. What I really miss in the film is the hate. Rose is consumed by hate. It eats her up like her cancer. She uses it as a weapon and uses it to manipulate people. She doesn't want to get beyond it but that's not clear in the film. Guess we can't have Pfeiffer be oo unlikeable. I thought Lange did more credit to her character. At least she has more of a journey in her role. But I hate her in that scene where she's outside Jess's window and tells him she loves her. She looks up, she looks down, she looks up, she looks down. Get the hell out of there, I say. (Cymbeline) IMO the best snappy material occurs just before this pic when Jess arrives at the kitchen door and you see him from JL's point of view. He's leaning against the door frame and you see him down to about knee level. His body makes a beautiful S curve... Yum, yum. My favorite too. You've got the hang of this, Cymbeline. (Evelyn) Sadly he didn't IMO he didn't deliver that buzz... He looked good to me! I know what you mean though but I'm waiting for Moon to elaborate for us. ;-) (Eileen) I find the most fascinating character to be Larry. What's up with him? To me it's another weak link. How did he descend into madness so quickly? Wonder why they left in that sole reference to Loren ("frick and frack") when they cut him out of the rest of the movie? I guess that was Loren at the church supper. Though you'd never know it if you hadn't read the book. I looked mightily for him at the barbecue in the opening of the film but couldn't see him.

Larry wanted dominance over the women in his life. Obviously, he could control the women when they were younger. Ginny and Rose stayed relatively close by and helped out. Caroline was the only daughter who made a name for herself. (i.e. she left the ruralness and moved to the big city.) By shutting out Caroline, he was in fact, shutting out her independance. Ginny always betrayed her husband, by not telling him about the last miscarriage. I think that is what pushed him over the edge (in book, not movie). One thing I found incredibly sad is that Ginny's husband was good for her and she didn't see it. Jess was a horrible person and Ginny and Rose were horrible people for not admitting that they were sexually abused by their father. (not in a literal sense.) One thing that disgusted me about the book and movie is that the girls never confront their father about the sexual abuse. He dies. How convenient. I must say, that I did like the book up until the very end. Did Ginny go on her own quest for identity at the end of the book. And if she did, why was it so skewered?

Just before she bolts, Ty tells Ginny "I think you've shown off plenty this summer." What did he mean by that? (Laura) Did Ginny go on her own quest for identity at the end of the book She pursues the childhood fantasy Rose had for their mother (she brought it up while they were folding laundry, I think). (Heide) What I really miss in the film is the hate Yes, we only see Rose's hate. We miss Ginny's descent into hatred (the poisoned sausages), which was an important dimension to her journey from repressed "ninny" to a hardened, somewhat bitter woman. (Laura) the girls never confront their father about the sexual abuse. He dies. How convenient. Once Ginny moves, Larry fades from the story completely (although I think he dies before Rose does in the book). It's as though, like Jess, his character wasn't needed anymore. (Heide) How did he descend into madness so quickly? Was it because he stopped working? Or was he mad all along?

Yeah, keeping the poisoned sausages would have brought another dimension, I think. Since as you point out, Eileen, Ginny finally allows her hate and jealousy to manifest itself. You scarcely see it in the film except for a couple of dirty looks Ginny gives Rose as she's walking with Jess. I didn't hate Jess. Really, what is there in the film that would make you hate him other than he slept with two married women (yes, at the same time) and then left them? Hardly noble but most of these people are not admirable. The fact that the film tells us Jess left when Rose's cancer returned is a cheap shot. He left before that happened. I can't remember if this is in the film or just from the book and screenplay (thanks Karen) but I liked at the end how Rose and Ginny each paint their own personalit onto Jess: (Rose) "He was more self-centred and calculating than you gave him credit for". (Ginny) He was kinder and had more doubts than you gave him credit for." I was sympathetic to Ty but his betrayal of Ginny was more serious than she hiding her miscarriages. She did it to keep him from hurting. His loyalty appeared to be to the farm and even to his father-in-law before his wife. Ty tells Ginny "I think you've shown off plenty this summer." I always took this to mean that Ty knew subconsciously Ginny and Jess were sleeping together. He at least is implying that her flirtation hasn't gone unnoticed. I believe in the book, Ginny felt that her father knew what was going on but this is only touched on during the rainstorm scene when he calls her a whore. I think it would have been rather more convenient though perhaps not more realistic for the girls to have confronted their father about his abuse. Would have made for a tidier ending. Now there are some scenes that I like. "Would you like at that." as Ginny and Rose carry their dishes to the table all the while admiring the new boy. What a delicious change from their boring unhappy husbands. I like the jogging scene too with Pete in the truck. Jess looks mighty fine when he's physical. Love to see a man sweat. Think he knew at that point that Pete knew? Was perhaps a little nervous as to what Pete might have in mind for him?

"Would you like at that?" I swear I typed in "Would you LOOK at that." Freud's little gremlins at work in my fingers.

Ty tells Ginny "I think you've shown off plenty this summer." (Heide) I always took this to mean that Ty knew subconsciously Ginny and Jess were sleeping together. He at least is implying that her flirtation hasn't gone unnoticed. I believe in the book, Ginny felt that her father knew what was going on but this is only touched on during the rainstorm scene when he calls her a whore. Agreed. Also agree about the "would you look at that" line. How did Rose read our minds? ;-D Re: potential confrontation with Daddy Don't think Jane Smiley or the film folks went there because it would focus us on abuse instead of the broader themes of hatred and betrayal. How is this approached in King Lear? Had the King done anything to his daughters? Of Jess' scenes, I like the screen door scene followed by the walk to the garbage dump. Of the others, I like the one in which Harold comes to tell Ginny "you've got a problem, girlie." That Harold's such a troublemaker. Ginny begins to come apart a bit and show her anger. (Heide) Think he knew at that point that Pete knew? Yup. Surely Rose had told him.

Sorry, I haven't been able to get into the discussion yet, but other things intruded. Have sort of watched it with the script in hand, but need to watch it again and take notes. Marcia, you said earlier that you "hated Jessica L in this movie - looked far too old for the part!" Her age seemed OK to me, but no matter what they did to both women, they didn't look convincing as Iowa farm wives. It was so apparent at the church supper. Look around the room at the extras, probably locals from the greater Rochelle area (to include DeKalb, Rockford, and other booming metropoli surrounding the Quad Cities). They are plain folk. Sure, Ginny and Rose might go to the beauty parlor (not a salon), but I doubt it. Their hair should be Clairol from the bottle. Look at Rose's kids. They are plain, farm kids. Does anyone remember the trio of farm disaster movies (Sally Field, Sissy Spacek and Jessica Lange's)? Maybe the difference is that they were all poor, but I don't think so. Even Meryl Streep's appearance was changed considerably in Bridges of Madison County. Attractive, yet plainish. Then there's Amy Madigan in Field of Dreams. What transplanted Angeleno decided that Rose should carry a Kenya bag? Where would Rose get a Kenya bag in Iowa? Surely not at Roberta's in Pike or any store in Des Moines! (Heide) Jess in his running gear I know I've carped about this before but Jess should have been wearing shorts. Who goes running in summer, a hot Iowa summer, in the nineties, wearing sweatpants? Only someone wanting to burn off all the fat from their body. Does it look like Colin's Jess needed to slim down anymore? Weren't his jeans loose enough? But on the bright side, Colin's running is the best we've seen to date. Horrible running in Master of the Moor and in SiL (flat-footed and probably intended to be comical). Do you think he had a coach? We know he didn't use a dialect coach. ;-D (KJArt) I would suspect that the biggest element to raise its ugly head here will be the effects of cut-throat editing. The circumstantial evidence is overwhelming. FYI, will answer Eileen's questions on what was in the script later. But as I said before, the story is there--pretty much intact--from the novel, as far as I can remember. Have some thoughts as to why it was so radically altered, but let's get to that later too. (Laura) How it ever won the Pulitzer is beyond me. Roger Ebert (who has also won a Pulitzer) said the following at the end of his review: "The screenplay is based on a novel by Jane Smiley, unread by me, which won the Pulitzer Prize--which means that either the novel oo the prize has been done a great injustice." (Xian) I had a feeling when I was watching the movie that he was an outsider to others, as an actor and as Jess. Then Colin succeeded as an actor. Jess was an *outsider* A mysterious outsider, who came back and insinuated himself into all their lives for his own purposes. (Eileen) He came across so...flat, so blah, especially in the I-can't- believe-you-don't-know-about-the-water scene. Have to agree with you on this aspect. I noticed a lot of flatness--not counting the countryside--especially after reading the descriptions in the script. Another is after the church supper. Back at the house, Rose is telling him that they've been set up. The script (sorry) talks about how this is what begins their relationship. She draws him into her web and he is captivated by her. I saw little on Colin's normally expressive face to show me that he was being bewitched by Rose. Laura said earlier bout how Jess left Ginny for the "pretty one." He actually didn't do the caddish thing. He was drawn away by Rose. Maybe the flatness of the acting had to do with something in the water? ;-D [more later]

Maybe the flatness of the acting had to do with something in the water? ;-D I can not help but compare how very ill-fitting his suit was at the trial, with how very ill-fitting this role was for Colin. The attraction must have been in the cast, working with such stars. Even in Playmaker, he managed to do something with his role. What happened here?

(Karen)Then Colin succeeded as an actor. Jess was an *outsider* A mysterious outsider, who came back and insinuated himself into all their lives for his own purposes. I don't think that I made myself clear about my feeling of CF was outsider as an actor. I meant that I felt he was *outsider* to other actors. Maybe because Jess was such insignificant role and nobody really care too much about him. He did not have much room to dig into the role as he usually does. Jess was so plain (save his looks) even when he spoke and he only had a few sentences in the whole movie I think. The only emotion moment was the fight with his father and that was not clearly developed (the hi tory of the relationship with his family) up to the point. I have never read the book or script and have no idea what is about Jess in them. I would not like Jess a bit if he was not played by ODB and now I give all excuses for his bad behavier and try to understand him. Oh how terrible I am?!

I agree with all the above about Colin's portrayal of Jess. But who to blame? The director? The stars? Colin himself? I'd suspect a mix of everything. The director wasn't able to elicit a convincing portrait of Jess. Some key scenes that might have helped explain his character more were left out of the final product (though that may not have been Moorhouse's fault). It was a vehickle for JL and MP - all the men were ciphers. And Colin? There was no vitality to his portrayal. Was he misled in t inking that Jess had to deliver his lines in a monotone? Xian, your impression of Colin appearing to be an "outsider" may be key to this disappointing role. But he sure looked good!

(Cymbeline) I'm at a disadvantage since I haven't read the book and don't know anything about how they edited the film Not to worry. While I did read the book prior to seeing the movie, I barely remember the details now and I've never read Lear--only know the basic plot. However, just to refresh people's memories, there was quite a bit of controversy when the film came out because the director wanted her name OFF the film, which means that she wasn't pleased with the final cut. (Cymbeline) they threw in Jess to supply the sexual buzz...He makes no major contribution to the dramatic unfolding of the plot (Evelyn) Maybe it was chemistry that was lacking. You can feel the buzz every time Jess touches Ginny. He is always touching her. Shame they didn't include the one in the basement by the freezer in which Jess runs his hand across Ginny's butt (now this is one detail I do remember from the book)! While Jess's affair with Ginny isn't the cause of her splitting up with Ty, it is significant to the breakup of the Rose-Pete relationship. Rose told Pete that she was involved with Jess just prior to his driving into the ditch. He however blamed Daddy as Rose told Ginny. (Cymbeline) I thought more should have been made of the husbands--one is a jerk, the other a drone, and that's that. I assume you mean that Pete is a jerk and Ty is a drone. Unfortunately, the more I think about Ty, the more I think he's the bigger jerk. What an imbecile!! To have gone to his sister-in-law and told on his wife! What fool would do that? I'm one of three sisters and no brother-in-law should ever do this. Yes, Ty thought he was doing it for the farm's sake and he clearly didn't approve of the way Ginny and Rose were treating Larry, as if he were a child, making rules (see him roll his eyes in the car sigh loudly, say "Now, Ginny"), but after Caroline slaps them with a lawsuit, he still doesn't wise up. Doing it for the farm? No, he's an owner of the farm. Why isn't he thinking like one? (Eileen) thought Jessica did a yeoman's job. Michelle's constant frown and angry monotone started wearing on me toward the end. I thought JL and MP worked well together in their big scenes, where they slowly and gradually reveal past secrets. It's in other scenes where I tend to find fault, especially with MP. Can you believe that beady-eyed seething look that MP does after Daddy comes off the stand!! Incredibly bad acting. I also have to laugh when I see her in the kitchen stirring the breading. Looks like she's never had a spoon in her hand before. (Eileen) BTW, his lips don't say "it's the Cook girls." Wonder why they dubbed it over? I can't believe you saw this!! What he says is "Hey, it's the big girls" per the script and that should match his lip movements. Jess is supposed to be younger than both of them, I think. Maybe some vain person wanted to eliminate that reference. ;-D (Eileen) Karen, was it you who said (months ago) that he sounded like Wm. Shatner? :-D Oh no, not me. I try never to think about Wm. Shatner. ;-D (Heide) Rose is consumed by hate...She doesn't want to get beyond it but that's not clear in the film. Anger and hate define Rose, as Ginny says in her voice-over at the end. However, Ginny has it too. It's under the surface and she's covered it up with the nice, sweet ninny image that Ty loves. Once that ninny veneer started cracking, he couldn't handle it nor did he want to. (Heide) Guess we can't have Pfeiffer be too unlikable. Or Lange. IMO that's why so much was edited out. That "poison-your-sister" subplot would have made Lange unlikable and I think the studio didn't like it. (Heide) I guess that was Loren at the church supper....I looked mightily for him at the barbecue in the opening of the film but couldn't see him. Yup, that was Loren, sitting next to Harold. He is in the credits. Couldn't find him at the BBQ either, but it took until now to realize it was Colin's back we see in front of the tractor. Need to get my eyes checked! :-) (Laura) One thing I found incredibly sad is that Ginny's husband was good for her and she didn't see it. He betrayed her too. At least when Ginny hid her miscarriages from him, she was trying to save him from the disappointment of the loss. She could handle it (obviously, if she was successful in hiding it from him) and it was worth it to her to keep trying. Ty's betrayal cannot be excused. (Heide) I was sympathetic to Ty but his betrayal of Ginny was more serious than she hiding her miscarriages. We see totally eye to eye on this one. (Eileen) Ty tells Ginny "I think you've shown off plenty this summer." (Heide) I always took this to mean that Ty knew subconsciously Ginny and Jess were sleeping together. I felt that Ty was referring to the public airing of the family's problems. (Heide) I like the jogging scene too...Think he knew at that point that Pete knew? Was perhaps a little nervous as to what Pete might have in mind for him? Hmmm, never thought of that. Possibility. (Eileen) That Harold's such a troublemaker. LOL! I don't think Pat Hingle has changed one iota since Splendor in the Grass and he played Warren Beatty's (Bud Stamper's) father. (Have no idea why I remember that name??) Same exact character. (Xian) I would not like Jess a bit if he was not played by ODB and now I give all excuses for his bad behavior and try to understand him. Oh how terrible I am?! You are not terrible. We often make excuses for his movies because CF can clearly rise up over the bad material. In this case, I think all the scenes that would have let you understand Jess's character better or even sympathize with him (naw) were cut out. Why? Who knows. (Heide) Was he misled in thinking that Jess had to deliver his lines in a monotone? Or was that just his delivery of a flat midwestern accent? (Heide) your impression of Colin appearing to be an "outsider" may be key to this disappointing role. Why? "Outsiders" can be exciting and intriguing. Couldn't that be what draws the women to him? He's a little exotic for them. He's a little exotic to me, but then again... ;-D

I believe this might be the "S-curve" Cymbeline admired:

That's the one all right. Thank you, Karen! It goes right into my growing collection of private drooliana. BTW, I saw Carrington this weekend b/c of the mention some of you made of it either here or on one of the other CF lists. Enjoyed it--Emma T. great as always. But I realized I have reached a new plane of addiction. My chief reaction was annoyance that ODB wasn't in it. What a waste of time. And why would Emma fall for any of those soggy twits she kept struggling with when a)she could have had Rufus Sewell and *especially* b) she should have demanded that at least one if not all of them be played by y u know who. I beg your pardon for having offended those of you who also admire those admirable English actors, but, as our 39th U.S. Pres. said, Why Not the Best?

He did looked good in ATA, thanks Karen! Now, let us discuss the kiss he gives JL. It must rate as one of the worst screen kisses ever! It looked so forced and passionless. When I think of Paul in FP and that first kiss in the kitchen. But, there are many others too. Is it possible that he just did not get anything right in this movie?

(Eileen) Karen, was it you who said (months ago) that he sounded like Wm. Shatner? :-D Wrong Karen. It was me, just before Christmas of last year. It amazed me that that resemblence just popped into my mind while watching ATA, and I never shook it. Tell me, was it there for 3DoR? I'd think not; East coast has a distinct tang to it; Midwest is about as flat and featureless as they come ... and Colin DID have a voice coach for it. (Perhaps his sounding like W.S. announces the coach's success?? Hee hee!) 8-D

(Moon) Now, let us discuss the kiss he gives JL. It must rate as one of the worst screen kisses ever! LOL!!! Tell it as it is, Moon. Forced and passionless kiss is right. There was absolutely no movement at all. And then they compounded the error by going for a second one. But my-oh-my, that pic is nice. As was he throughout the film. He knew how to look tasty...just wasn't too deep. (Karen) "Outsiders" can be exciting and intriguing. Correct me if I'm wrong, Xian, but I think you meant that Colin the actor felt like an outsider to you, not Jess the character. Which is what I was responding to. That perhaps Colin never did fit in with the cast which could explain the rather lusterless performance he gives. You brought up a good point, Karen, about the age difference. Besides Jess being younger than the Cook girls (or the big girls), he's not supposed to have known Pete before nor Rose's daughters before he left 13 years before. Hmmm, that older daughter sure looked at least 13 to me. (Karen) Anger and hate define Rose, as Ginny says in her voice-over at the end. However, Ginny has it too. Yeah, she does and that is almost completely missing in the film except in the dirty looks she's shooting at Jess and Rose when they're walking by. However, I think Ginny has the ability to forgive and Rose does not. She is defined by her hate. Dear Michelle could only come across as strident. (Karen) You can feel the buzz every time Jess touches Ginny. He is always touching her. You can certainly feel it when he walks by her in the kitchen while she's making coffee. I could almost feel that hand grazing across my own back. That scene in the flatbed of the rusted out truck....did Jess and Ginny just have sex? Yes, I know they did. My, they were unrumpled. Ginny's shirt modestly covering her with just that coy exposure of her pretty white silk bra. Give me a break.

OK - my opinion on the ATA "kiss" scene between Jess & Ginny...I agree, my dog gives more passionate kisses!!! But then, she doesn't have a director and a bunch of stage hands watching! (her name is Pearl, a cocker spaniel, btw). Perhaps CF had a case of the stomach flu??? Can that be a good excuse? Heide - I agree re: truck scene...was there even a HINT of a "sex glow" about them? Perhaps JL had a case of the stomach flu, too!!! Can this whole movie be blamed on a REALLLLLY bad case of the flu, stomach or otherwise?!!

... but no matter what they did to both women, they didn't look convincing as Iowa farm wives. Wasn't the director, Jocelyn Moorhouse, an Australian?Maybe that's what Australian farm wives look like.:-D BTW...FYI..The NY Times gave that book rave reviews. And JL got a Golden Globe nomination for her role as Ginny. ( Hold the rotten tomatoes...I just thought you'd want that bit of information.:-D )

Nice snappy, Karen alas, IMO he looks too thin. I wonder if that's why they swaddled him in sweats?? I agree with ya--was looking forward to short nylon running shorts as described in the book. Was also looking forward to the veggie garden scene in which he removed his t-shirt. Sigh--'twas not to be! (Karen) but it took until now to realize it was Colin's back we see in front of the tractor. Need to get my eyes checked! :-) Ohh, yes! How many fingers am I holding up now? :-P (Karen) I think all the scenes that would have let you understand Jess's character better or even sympathize with him (naw) were cut out. Why? Who knows. (Heide) Some key scenes that might have helped explain his character more were left out of the final product (though that may not have been Moorhouse's fault). It was a vehicle for JL and MP - all the men were ciphers. (Karen) there was quite a bit of controversy when the film came out because the director wanted her name OFF the film, which means that she wasn't pleased with the final cut. Didn't know about that last bit. It fits, though. When the movie came out, I remember reading that either Michelle's or Jessica's (or both?) production company(s) grabbed up the film rights soon after the book was published. Sooo, I subscribe to the notion that it was one or both of *them* who was responsible for the cut-throat editing. I'm still at a loss as to why the film was brought up to present day instead of leaving it in '79. Would it have stretched the budget to toss in a few older cars and trucks in Pike? That's all they would have had to do. The wardrobe was dowdy and could have passed easily. The appliances and furnishings in the houses aren't modern. Roberta's isn't modern. Corn is corn. Harold's new tractor is just as described in the book. The only modern bells and whistles were Caroline's laptop and car phone, and they seemed totally out of place and superfluous to me. Did we really need to see an on-line photo of Larry? Did she really need to call Ginny from her car? What we gain is seeing Caroline as the modern daughter, the one who broke out of the mold. What we lose is the entire subplot about the reason for Jess' absence (he was a draft dodger from the Viet Nam war). Why make this unequal trade? To simplify or downplay the character of Jess, IMO, and focus on the females. (Karen) You can feel the buzz every time Jess touches Ginny. He is always touching her. Shame they didn't include the one in the basement by the freezer in which Jess runs his hand across Ginny's butt And he kisses her ear, right? MMmmmmm. (Moon) [The kiss] It looked so forced and passionless. I agree (didn't like the way he kissed MEM in MLSF either. He needs to turn his head more ;-D. The best smooch award goes to Femme Fatale!). However, in retrospect it does fit with his character's motivation--he's only using Ginny and though he likes her, isn't passionate about her. (Heide) Ginny's shirt modestly covering her with just that coy exposure of her pretty white silk bra. This is consistent with the book (but the scene itself was sexier). However, in the conversation that follows, Jess becomes enraged when Ginny tells him about her 5 miscarriages. Not so in the movie. Colin was trying to portray Jess' sensitivity but...*kerplop* (KJArt) Wrong Karen Oops! Right church, wrong pew. I agree with you--Shatner it is! (Karen) Another is after the church supper. Back at the house, Rose is telling him that they've been set up. The script (sorry) talks about how this is what begins their relationship. She draws him into her web and he is captivated by her. I saw little on Colin's normally expressive face to show me that he was being bewitched by Rose. Laura said earlier bout how Jess left Ginny for the "pretty one." He actually didn't do the caddish thing. He was drawn away by Rose. Yes, yes, yes. But (and I know you'll agree) blame needs to be shared with MP. CF had to play off her in that scene. Her anger towards Larry comes through, but nothing else. BTW, Jess' defection from Ginny for Rose caught me by suprise in the book. Afterward it made sense, since she was becoming more ambitious and overt about getting back at the older generation.

Passionless kiss?? Wot! He's giving it the full Firthian shoulder grind: and he doesn't do it all the time!

Thanks for the snappy. IMO despite ++ shoulder grind, it still doesn't compare to the grocery store "tart" kiss from FF. It must have something to do with the frozen food... ;-P

(Heide)Correct me if I'm wrong, Xian, but I think you meant that Colin the actor felt like an outsider to you, not Jess the character. You got it!!! Just in this case, Jess was outsider as well. CF did not look like a part of (casting) TEAM to me. Think about it, those big Hollywood stars in the casting, who would pay attention to CF, a British nobody (to them), especially his Jess was only one of footstools for the main characters. Jess just faded away (when no longer needed) unnoticed until Rose mentioned it in a hospital. I remember reading an article about him in ATA, he was asked how he got a role to work with the superstars and the reason he got the role was that he happened to be in LA (visiting his son) and ATA casting was looking for "Jess", so somebody introduced him. It's been a long time since I read it, I could be mistaken by another film. I'm searching for the article and not successfully so far. But I'm still trying.

You're right, Xian. I remember reading that one as well (but have no recollection as to where I read it).

(Moon) [The kiss] It looked so forced and passionless. (Eileen) However, in retrospect it does fit with his character's motivation--he's only using Ginny and though he likes her, isn't passionate about her. Bingo, Eileen. My sentiments exactly. Jess was an opportunist and a cad... he never was out for a real relationship with Ginny or Rose. Thanks for the pic, Karen....but the ole shoulder grind doesn't always mean passion.Joe Prince, IMO, was out for the real thing. There is one scene at the end of the book which does not occur in the script or film:Ginny has gone back to be with Rose's girls.Rose is still in the hospital. One night she can't sleep..... "I got up and went to the phone and called Vancouver information.... There it was a Jess Clark, and I dialed the number. ..On the fifth ring, an American man's voice did answer, but when I asked whether this was the Jess clark who'd once lived in Iowa, he said no. I thought I recognized his voice.There was a baby crying in the background." I submit that Jess Clark went back to Iowa because Harold was getting old and he wanted to make amends to inherit the land.He overtures to Ginny and Rose was self-serving entirely.

Jocelyn Moorhouse, the Australian director would know what a great actor CF is....Although unknown in the US...he is v. well known in Australia.

(Eileen) How many fingers am I holding up now? :-P Oh dear! It's even worse than I thought. I can't make out. ;-D

Right, the shoulder stuff makes it look fake rather than enhancing the passion--like a high school play. I noticed it on my first view, even before this discussion confirmed it. And yes, he should have turned his head more--it looks like the clash of the Titan noses. Was he just going through the motions here? But think about the P&P kiss--the hat (should have been removed--for verisimilitude as well as convenience), the bumpy carriage ride making it hard to get the lips together, the extreme closeup making the difficulties more obvious. I haven't seen Femme yet, so tell me, experts, have I seen a really good smack yet? And yes, in ATA he was definitely too thin--the S-curve pic at the kitchen door illustrates it, yummy as it is. Maybe I know too much now to suspend disbelief, but he didn't convince me as an Iowa farm boy, and the accent ruined that gorgeous voice. Of course, we know why anyone making a movie would want ODB to be in it, but it's hard to believe there was no American who would have been more convincing--although by no means better or more desirable.

(Cymbeline) it looks like the clash of the Titan noses LOL! He gets the head turning part right in SiL, but I don't think that's the kind of 'passion' we're looking for in a kiss (since Viola belts him one afterwards)! but it's hard to believe there was no American who would have been more convincing Colin fits the book's description of Jess to a 'T' except for eye color (not blue). He had to read for the part (recalling that article Xian mentioned) so with his looks, talent and availablity obviously beat out others for the role. By all means catch up with FF--there's a whole lotta smoochin' [and more] going on!

(Eileen)Colin fits the book's description of Jess to a 'T' Absolutely. Plus he likes to do those "boo hiss" parts: Ross T., Stephen Whalby, Simon Westward, certainly Lord Wessex, and in some ways Charles Gould, and Valmont, also the two leads in Deep Blue Sea and Out of the Blue.

I would hate it if Colin were not a good kisser. That has to be #1 in my book. All roads lead from the kiss. Might he be in need of a kissing coach? Sign me up!!! Did anyone notice he slips slightly into an Irish accent(kind of flatened), when he is leaning by the tree in a scene with JL (the linguist in me picked that up, it is subtle, but it is there). BTW, ATA is on Encore tonight at 8pm.

(Heide) except in the dirty looks she's shooting at Jess and Rose when they're walking by. But where's her anger and hatred for her sister, when sister Rose nonchalantly drops the bomb? Ginny is stunned by the news and then crushed when Rose casually acknowledges that Jess told her "at some point" so that Ginny and Jess have nothing private anymore. Ginny walks away without any trace of anger. In fact, doesn't she lay her hand on Rose's shoulder? Totally ridiculous. (Heide) I think Ginny has the ability to forgive and Rose does not. Perhaps, but she doesn't. She doesn't forgive Ty. Did you notice that, when she got the call about Rose dying, she is going under the name Ginny Cook at the restaurant? (Heide) Ginny's shirt modestly covering her with just that coy exposure of her pretty white silk bra. Give me a break. The underwear maven strikes again!! (Evelyn) And JL got a Golden Globe nomination for her role as Ginny. Yes, I remember and I remember thinking that JL is well-liked by the Hollywood Foreign Press Assn. The GG are nothing more than a very establishment popularity contest. (Eileen) Was also looking forward to the veggie garden scene in which he removed his t-shirt. Script doesn't say anything about removing his t-shirt in that scene. Think I'll check in the book. Sometimes, it's good to reread the "good" parts. At that point in the script, however, is a really good statement concerning Jess: "Then Ginny turns and sees a terrible look on Jess's face, of pain and anger....Ginny feels she has never seen such a marvellously expressive face. She is drawn intimately into his willingness to reveal his pain and anger to her." Does that scream "Colin Firth" to you? ;-D (Eileen) either Michelle's or Jessica's (or both?) production company(s) grabbed up the film rights soon after the book was published. Sooo, I subscribe to the notion that it was one or both of *them* who was responsible for the cut-throat editing. They did grab up the rights, probably seeing a rarity (i.e., strong parts for women); they must have understood the story. My feeling is that the studio didn't like the final product or that it tested poorly, lots of negative feedback on the women. So the cuts were aimed at making the women more palatable, and to do so, they had to make Jess a one-dimensional cad and they had to eliminate the sisterly hate (poisoned sausages). It all had to be directed at Daddy. (Eileen) I'm still at a loss as to why the film was brought up to present day instead of leaving it in '79. Until you mentioned it, I hadn't thought how significant it was. It really doesn't make any sense and does gloss over important pieces of background info from the original story, like the fact that Jess was a draft dodger. That fact alone, in that place, can help understand why Harold and the other townspeople don't trust Jess. This is a flag-waving bunch, in apple pie and cornfield America. Another is this was the period of go-go agricultural lending. Land values were greatly inflated and bankers were begging farmers (who owned their properties free and clear) to borrow. The farmers were paper millionaires and borrowed heavily. As the banking follies surfaced (can't remember if it was touched off by Penn Square), these people lost their farms, their livelihoods and their heritage. All of this is important to an understanding of why they lost the farm. (Cymbeline) the shoulder stuff makes it look fake rather than enhancing the passion The shoulder thing to me has always been Colin's best move, when he's used it in Tumbledown (max shoulder action), FP and FF. Let's not forget that the first kiss here is tentative. He's not sure Ginny will go along with it. He knows she's interested, but she's a good wife and has never been with anyone else before.

Someone mentioned how the movie seemed choppy; I recall reading that Joycelyn Moorhouse tried her damndest to get her name off of the movie. She lost control in editting when JL and MP went nuts in editting (As producer, you have final say). Which is why the Jess part was cut down. I think Moorhouse really wanted it to say (directed by Alan Smithee [Karen did a write up on that before]). So anyway, that's my two cents;)

More evidence of editing: When Ginny drives past Daddy's place and stops to see him sitting in the window, there's a shot of him looking out toward the road. You can see the kitchen cabinets piled up on the lawn through the window. That whole aspect--showing Larry's descent into madeness--was in the script, mentioned several times, and we can see that it was filmed as well.

Karen, you confused me?

Eileen, I found it!!! The article which I was talking about in my previous post. It was an interview with Colin in Elle, May 1997 by Jasper Rees. Here it is the excerpt: (JR:)You're not so fond of Hollywood? (Colin:)I just find it a bit boring really. I find it so regimented. There's nothing social happening there. It needs to be contrived, because nothing incidental can happen very easily. You've really got to make an appointment to go somewhere, to get in your car and do it. There's a whole climate there which doesn't fire me up very much, and I don't want to pursue a Hollywood career for the sake of being there. I don't have great ambitions to be rich. Not that I scorn money. I do want to be comfort ble, as anybody would, it's just not for it's own sake. I really would not turn my nose up at a Hollywood offer of a wonderful film which paid a lot of money. But there's a real out-of-sight, out-of-mind mentality. I was offered A Thousand Acres only because I happened to be there. It would never have occurred to them that I would have been happy to fly out for a screen test. (JR:)A Thousand Acres is an adaptation of a novel by Jane Smiley that is itself a modern parallel of King Lear. Is Jess, the Edmund role that you can sort of see John Malkovich playing, a comfortable fit? (Colin:)I think I was extremely inappropriate for the part. Jess in the book is described as an Adonis, a female fantasy figure. There is a paragraph describing his thighs as 'woven themselves braids of discreet tensions', and that could in no way describe my thighs. (JR:)Your thighs had quite a following in Pride and Prejudice (Colin:Well, they were carefully swathed in buckskin. I assure you they don't have the same effect seen in shorts. I wore Arsenal boxer shorts in Fever Pitch. I'm fairly confident my thighs won't have the same impact in that scene. The last part is not related to our topic, but think you want to hear it too. I can't wait to CF in Arsenal boxer :-)) BTW the article is at Article

Sorry, forget close the tag

Here was the director's view of CF to be Jess: As Jess Clarke, a childhood friend of the Cook sisters who returns home to further fracture the already divided family, Moorhouse cast British actor Colin Firth. "I didn't deliberately cast a Brit," says the director. "I was just looking for an intensity and an unusual troubled quality. I loved him in Valmont and Apartment Zero, and thought he was really good in Pride and Prejudice, too. He has a very strong presence." It was from the same site: TV, Film & Plays

Try again TV, Film & Plays

Thanks Xian! It is inteesting to see that the director and Colin did not see eye-to-eye even in the reason why he was cast as Jess. I really would not turn my nose up at a Hollywood offer of a wonderful film which paid a lot of money. Ben should see this on 119. :-D

Here's some contemporary commentary Re: the rumored "cut-throat" editing on ATA. From Entertainment Weekly, Fall Double-issue '97, which serves as a preview for upcoming releases: ... Says producer Marc Abraham: "In Michelle's case, I have rarely seen a star as willing to be that tough and unrepentant and angry." She wasn't the only one; after Disney demanded a recut, Moorhouse reportedly threatened to take her own name off the film. and:From a *positive* review in the 22 Sept. issue of Newsweek by David Ansen: ...Moorhouse and her fellow Australian Screenwriter Laura Jones succeed where it counts, in capturing the close, sometimes bitterly fraught relationship between the sisters. The men in the tale -- Rose's unstable husband (Kevin Anderson), Ginny's virtuous but obtuse mate (Keith Carradine) and the neighbor's seductive son Jess (Colin Firth) -- are merely sketched in. The storytelling \...\ can seem melodramat c and clunky at times, and Moorhouse doesn't have much feel for the Iowa landscape or for the community that demonizes the two sisters. But if the movie isn't all it could have been, when Pfeffer and Lange are on the screen, you don't want to be anywhere else. And later... The problems came after the shooting ended, when Moorhouse ("How to Make an American Quilt") turned in her cut. Everyone was disappointed. The story meandered; the emotion got lost. The producers hired an outside editor to come in and work alongside Moorhouse's editor. The director stormed off, threatening to take her name off the movie. With the input of the stars and the producers a new version emerged. "My feeling was the storytelling was not clear," says Lange of that first cut. "I had no problem shooting with Jocelyn," says Pfeiffer. "Postproduction was the hard thing. It may have been that she was too close to it. We were all too close to it. It took bringing in a new editor who was objective and brutal. It's still Jocelyn's movie." (KJ): I might add that this was one of the few positive reviews of the movie when it came out ...I think David is a MP and JL fan first and foremost! 8-D

I have a problem with that. Moorehouse did "How to Make an American Quilt" and pretty much had small town America down pat. Her vision of Iowa didn't have anything to do with editting the movie.

(Reviewer) But if the movie isn't all it could have been, when Pfeffer and Lange are on the screen, you don't want to be anywhere else. WRONG!! You want to be anywhereelse. ~~~~ Thanks KJArt, and when you have time we want to hear your comments on the film...please?

(Karen) Ginny feels she has never seen such a marvellously expressive face. She is drawn intimately into his willingness to reveal his pain and anger to her." Does that scream "Colin Firth" to you? ;-D It screams so loud that I have to cover my ears ;-D That "marvellously expressive" line's directly from the book. (Karen) Script doesn't say anything about removing his t-shirt in that scene. Think I'll check in the book. Sometimes, it's good to reread the "good" parts My comments are based only on the book. Have the good parts mostly committed to memory (tee hee). If I recall correctly, he came up to her after a run. During their conversation, he removed his shirt and used it to wipe his face. (Karen) You can see the kitchen cabinets piled up on the lawn through the window Oh yeah! I had forgotten all about the cabinets and did not notice 'em in all my viewings of that scene (there's nothing wrong with your peepers 8-)). Thanks for the articles, Xian! Good sleuthing! Our Colin's got a thing about his thighs. Thanks also for the info about the editing (thanks to KJ, also. I didn't know Disney was meddling as well). Perhaps that's why Colin was quoted in an article shortly after ATA came out saying [I'm paraphrasing] "there's too much money [in H'wood], everyone's always checking and doublechecking, it stifles creativity and it stifles fun." About this editing: What a mess postproduction must have been, with the production company disappointed and Disney kicking in its 'two cents' about toning down the women. Karen, does the script as written lend itself to a 'meandering story in which the emotion got lost'? In your opinion, was Jess' character diluted (from the book version) more in the script or the editing room?

(Heide) except in the dirty looks she's shooting at Jess and Rose when they're walking by. (Karen) But where's her anger and hatred for her sister, when sister Rose nonchalantly drops the bomb? Exactly! Isn't that what I've been saying? There's not enough of the hate shown in this film. Even jealousy. Barely touched on. Rose is jealous of her daughter's affection for Ginny. Not shown. I can't believe I'm a proponent of wanting more hate and jealousy in a film but it's the one thing that could give this film some bite. Is this Disneyfication? So how many of you think Jess is a liar, conniver and cheat who wants only to love 'em and leave 'em? And how many of you think Jess is a confused sapwho thinks he's being sensitive to these women's needs? Or any other description of his character? Does anyone find Pete's story about the Afghans and the van remotely funny? Guess you had to be there. I don't think Colin found it too funny either considering the fake laugh he gives. Does Jess's fiddling with his leather braid around his wrist remind you of Darcy's fidgeting with his pinkie ring? Any other Darcy-isms? (Colin-isms)

(Heide) And how many of you think Jess is a confused sap who thinks he's being sensitive to these women's needs? Or any other description of his character? How about Colin's "take"...maybe Jess was grieving for his mother and felt he had to unburden his emotions (in bed!) with every doll he met.... (Bull****). The guy was a scheming conniver under the guise of a tender vegetarian.Having said this...IMO Colin played the role v. well. He did not belong in that rural group...he had been away for 13 years and was an outsider. I think he purposely gives Jess a detached aura.He did not approve of any of them. Of course, we never know what Jess is really like...the story is told through Ginny and she obviously was smitten with him.But I think Colin knew. and portrayed him that way.

(Evelyn) The guy was a scheming conniver under the guise of a tender vegetarian. LOL! Got to watch out for those vegetarians. In case anyone out there is reluctant to post their positive views because the ones here so far seem to be negative, please don't let that bother you. There were some good things in this film and I'd like to discuss those too. And more about Jess! Wouldn't he have tempted you? Or would you have kept that lust in your heart. Let's hear it, married ladies.

Would Jess have tempted me? If my poor husband knew how fast I'd agree to take a walk in the woods with ODB, it would ruin his whole day (I hope I'm not being optimistic here.) The mysterious stranger comes to town is a whole genre of which Paul Newman was once the reigning deity, and female leads have always found them impossible to resist. The difficulty with trying to judge Jess's motives from the movie, however, is, as we've said, so much apparently ended up on the cutting room floor. So I can't really tell how CF meant to play the character. The other thing that would be interesting to know is if he built the character solely from the screen play or read the book as well and, if so, how he managed the differences. And presumably the director had something to do with how the character came across too. How all of those things worked to ether and then got more or less deformed by editing would make a very interesting seminar if we could only get the principal to come tell us about it.

Thank you, Xian and KJ, for all your research. I tend to read the Jasper Rees interview as showing Colin's humor. C'mon, the bit about the thighs and the Adonis remark! ;-D On Moorhouse's comment, "He has a very strong presence." That's precisely what is called for in the movie. Jess has to be a major presence. He's what triggers so much of the action. Unfortunately, he's treated in the final cut like a piece of furniture. His big speech was whacked out. How can you tell anything about a character from his playing of Monopoly?? ;-D The EW article says exactly what I felt must have happened. The studio couldn't handle showing MP in such an ugly light and, for that matter, JL making a poisonous concoction and delivering it. They probably didn't feel it was marketable that way. What bothers me is that some suits thought it was too ugly. A shame they didn't understand the relationship between sisters. Sisters "are" capable of doing/saying the meanest things to each other. However, no one should attempt to intervene or take sides a la Ty) between sisters. That's the kiss of death. Men just don't understand. Why does that "Sisters" song from White Christmas keep running through my head? (Pfieffer) "It's still Jocelyn's movie." Baloney! (Eileen) does the script as written lend itself to a 'meandering story in which the emotion got lost'? Nope, but it certainly would be longer. FYI, most of the voice-overs are not in the script and might have been their way of "fixing the story-telling" aspect. (Eileen) In your opinion, was Jess' character diluted (from the book version) more in the script or the editing room? I don't remember the book all that well, but it was certainly a better part in the script. There was the speech while Ginny is planting the tomatoes where Jess gets to tell his story about how he was ostracized by Harold and how no one told him about his mother dying. That's the speech in which Jess gains Ginny's sympathy and later we can wonder if it was just manipulation. (Heide) So how many of you think Jess is a liar, conniver and cheat who wants only to love 'em and leave 'em? And how many of you think Jess is a confused sap who thinks he's being sensitive to these women's needs? He's a mystery man and his motives are unclear. Did he run away initially for valiant, political or spiritual reasons? Or was he just a coward? In the movie, we are given no details or background. I do think he came back for Harold's farm. But there isn't a chance in hell that Harold is going to give him beans. Why does he hang around? Seems to me like he doesn't know what he wants to do so he's biding his time. Another phase in his uprooted life. (Heide) I don't think Colin found it too funny either considering the fake laugh he gives. But he sure looked "embarrassed" as I recall. (Cymbeline) The mysterious stranger comes to town is a whole genre of which Paul Newman was once the reigning deity, and female leads have always found them impossible to resist. Exactly!! You've put your finger on it. Those Paul Newman roles were the quintessential mysterious stranger I've been alluding to. A Ben Quick, a man with a dangerous past. Am seeing all sorts of new things in this recent rewatching. For the longest time, I thought Colin was in the outfield during that softball game and now I see he was playing catcher. Didn't anyone tell him that the catcher should squat a bit?! ;-D

I see he was playing catcher. Didn't anyone tell him that the catcher should squat a bit?! ;-D Oh, No! I sense another baseball discussion in the making. ;-) The conclusion to make from all these observations is not a favorable one for ATA, so when do we move on to the next one? sorry do continue

Moon, you've hardly said a thing and now you want to move on already? Honey, we spent six weeks on Playmaker. (Karen) For the longest time, I thought Colin was in the outfield during that softball game and now I see he was playing catcher. Ack! Now this I have to see. I always thought he was standing in the outfield looking ineffectual. Could it be sloppy editing that shows him playing both positions? Or is he just a very fast runner. He does get practice on those Iowa roads. Thanks for the heads up, Karen.

(Moon)Oh, No! I sense another baseball discussion in the making. ;-) Aaaaaamen!!One board is enough,thank you :-)

Moon, you've hardly said a thing and now you want to move on already? Honey, we spent six weeks on Playmaker. I sometimes follow the rule, "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all." Besides, there were lot's of angles to discuss in Playmaker. To quote Groucho Marx, "If you know what I mean!" ;-)) don't mind me, do carry on

I watched the baseball game scene again (promise, no Yankees/Red Sox in this discussion)and now I see it from Karen's perspective. Here I've been viewing it from the wrong angle all along. Jess is the catcher. What we think is the outfield is actually Jess standing behind home plate. Anyone know what the song is that's playing in Pete's truck when he comes across Jess jogging? Fits well into the my favorite scene in the whole film.

(Karen) His big speech was whacked out. How can you tell anything about a character from his playing of Monopoly?? ;-D /.../ That's the speech in which Jess gains Ginny's sympathy and later we can wonder if it was just manipulation. That speech explains Jess to the movie audience. Pulling it out reduced the character to just another pretty face. I thought one of Jess' funniest lines in the book came at the end of the monopoly game, just after Rose turns the board over: "There was a long silence. Pete's face reddened and he bit his lip /.../ Ty looked at me as if this were the result of my failure to settle down, and Jess bent down to pick up his property cards. He said, 'Unrestrained capitalism always ends in war.'" (Karen) For the longest time, I thought Colin was in the outfield during that softball game and now I see he was playing catcher (Heide) I always thought he was standing in the outfield looking ineffectual Me three! That blew by me completely. (Heide) So how many of you think Jess is a liar, conniver and cheat who wants only to love 'em and leave 'em? And how many of you think Jess is a confused sap who thinks he's being sensitive to these women's needs? Ahh, good question. It can go either way, IMO. That's why he's so mysterious. Perhaps he's a bit of both--a conniver who thinks he's being sensitive. (Heide) Why does he hang around? Those leaning toward the 'conniver and cheat' persona can argue that he was holding out for the best deal possible. If Harold gave him the farm--great. If he didn't, there was Ginny or Rose. Think he had a grand plan to unite the two farms? (Heide) Wouldn't he have tempted you? Or would you have kept that lust in your heart. Let's hear it, married ladies. (Cymbeline) If my poor husband knew how fast I'd agree to take a walk in the woods with ODB, it would ruin his whole day Hee hee! ODB yes, but Jess? You gotta watch those sensitive types :-P (Heide) Anyone know what the song is that's playing in Pete's truck when he comes across Jess jogging? Pink Floyd's 'Wish You Were Here'? just kidding! I don't know.

Since Eileen mentioned the nylon running shorts, here's portions of an article about the costume designer from ATA, Ruth Myers. She's English and was trained at the Royal Court Theatre, but at the same time as ATA, she did the costuming for LA Confidential, which is also the subject of the article (compare and contrast styles). A Thousand Acres was a quickly-put-together film under the direction of Jocelyn Moorhouse, whom Myers had worked very happily with on How to Make an American Quilt....Despite the pedigree of its actors and source material, the Disney-produced ATA was something of a rush job for Myers. "I think I had three weeks' prep," she recalls. "We shot in Rochelle, IL, and the location people were sending me newspapers and church bulletins, because there wasn't time for me to go. Local newspapers are very, very us ful, because they often have things like church bakes and barbecues in them. I drove to the outer [San Fernando] Valley to shop at K-Mart and Sears and other places, and then when I got to Rochelle, I managed to find a lot of stuff. Jessica was in France doing Cousin Bette, and I fitted her the day she came. I'd never seen her before, but literally, I put her clothes on her and she worked. Unlike the heavily built LA Confidential, Myers' experience on ATA was primarily one of shopping, overdyeing, and reconstructing. Keith Carradine is cast in the role of Lange's solid, uncomplicated husband, and his entire wardrobe was purchased at Farm and Fleet in Rochelle. "When we left, they kept pumping his hand," Myers says of their trip to the store. "Jocelyn trusted that I wouldn't glamorize it, and that I wouldn't do anything arty. It wasn't much of a challenge, but the challenge was that it w sn't a challenge." Still, the designer had strong costume concepts in mind for the film. "I kept to very clear color schemes," she says. "I wanted that sense of colors fading and coming back, and as the film progresses, we wash out a little. It's not very obvious." Blatant or not, Myers' ideas can be seen operating especially with Lange and Pfeiffer's characters, Ginny and Rose. (The third sister, Leigh's Caroline, is a Des Moines lawyer, which Myers says was "easy" to portray.) "When we start off," the designer explain , "the feeling is that Ginny, whatever her problems, is quite comfortable in her body; we see her being soft and easy and calm. Whereas Rose has had a breast removed, and she's also the one with anger. Her clothes, in many ways, serve as some sort of protection. She has a lot of patterns in the early part." What is revealed about both characters in ATA is that appearances can be deceiving. "As the film progresses," Myers continues, "I tried to bring them together by putting them both in jeans and T shirts, so that visually you see them become very similar. Then they burst off again--Rose becomes more feminine, Ginny darker. It's little, it's not big. In fact, I try not to talk to too many people about these ideas, especially producers," she adds with a laugh. "But I do think of my work like that," Myers goes on. "I do see myself as a conceptual designer. I don't see it as a shopping j b, I do not see myself as a stylist...My feeling is not about making so-and-so look beautiful, but of telling a story." ********* That definitely explains MP's purse, i.e., purchased in the Valley. Wonder if Colin went to the "Farm and Fleet" store for his clothes. If they were going ga-ga over Carradine, it might not have been safe to bring Colin in. They'd be swooning in the aisles! ;-D

That was a cute article. Somehow I didn't think it would be too hard to costume these characters. At the risk of drawing stereotypes, I never thought Rose's short tight pink skirt fit in too well at Harold's picnic. (Karen) That's the speech in which Jess gains Ginny's sympathy and later we can wonder if it was just manipulation. A mistake in our minds anyway. Yeah, I think he was manipulating her a little bit. Not that he didn't feel pain at his mother's death but he wanted to make sure Ginny know that he felt wronged too. Poor sad Jess. (Eileen) He said, 'Unrestrained capitalism always ends in war.'" Too bad that was left out. That deadpan remark might have brightened his character up a little. I'm also sorry they left out a moment during the bickering while playing Monopoly where Jess's face expresses irritation at Ginny's shrill tone. I'd have like to see him show he was not always Mr. Sensitivity.

I think Ruth Myers bought the dark suit that Jess wears in the courtroom at a garage sale.(It's worse than the BAFTA tux.) Best is the pizza delivery man outfit....let's hear it for K-Mart!!

Yes, Evelyn, the best outfit is that gray Henley. But the article about the speed with which they put the film together may explain why the rest of Jess's shirts don't look right. What did y'all think? He puts on a red shirt after the love scene that is just too bright and too big for him, and the shirt in the Monopoly scene, though dark, is still too big. As for the white shirt in the picnic scene--the less said the better! IMO as they released the film, with all the cuts we've discussed, he comes across as almost entirely a sexual character, and, although he is better looking than the two husbands, if they want to show the difference between him and the husbands, his clothes should emphasize his body b/c that is the currency he uses in the film. And except in the kitchen scene they don't--and even there his jeans are too big. If they want his appeal to be obvious despite his Walmart farmboy clothes, they should have left n the sensitivity and made his character more appealing, more complex, and more needy. To me he comes across as an exploiter, and I would think he'd dress like one. Of course it's possible I'm biased and just wanted to see more screen time in his skivvies or less. But I'm trying to be a seriously objective film critic here.

Well I loved his shirts, I thought they were what a good-looking country boy could wear. Agree that they look too big sometimes, they were probably chosen to make him look bigger. He was very slim during the shoot. Haven�t read the book/the script so I can only say what I see in the film: I don�t see Jess as an exploiter. The women were grown up people and free to make up their own mind. They needed sexual entertainment just like he wanted to be entertained, nothing very serious after all. I think Colin conveyed this situation very well, he wouldn�t have been a plausible choice for adult women as a lover if he had been more provocative sexually.

Glad to see you here, Elena. I like the idea of "sexual entertainment". Getting a little too dull down on the farm and here comes the prodigal son after 13 years. Jess was filling a need. Hey, Jess, there are a lot of needy women around. Cymbeline, maybe the costumer bought Colin's clothes before she met him. Was basing her idea of sizes on those manly thighs ;-) she saw in Pride & Prejudice. He did look very thin in this film. I agree with Evelyn on best outfit!

Hey, you guys...lets hear from everybody....I stuck my neck out for the firthettes across the pond. Some of the folks here wanted to do AZ and I said "No,that's an obscure film...let's do ATA ...everyone everywhere now has access to that one." We've only heard from Elena (and that's because I mentioned Margaret Thatcher (pardon the espression:-) on #119. Now ....everyone has a favorite scene...favorite shirt?...We all seem to like the pizza delivery man shirt(even though no farmer in Zebulon County would be caught dead wearing a Henley shirt!). My second fave is the white shirt he wears when he's looking out the window at Larry's house...a little dorky...( reminds me of what an assistant manager at Walmart would wear... but he smiles and looks luminous. Let's hear from everybody...OK?

At the risk of being considered exceptionately dense: by the "pizza delivery man shirt" are you referring to the gray one he wore in the screen door scene (as shown in the intro to Drool which comes up with "pizza delivery man" label every time you point an arrow on the photo)? (What is this, an in-joke derived from the little scenario cooked up for Karen's Birthday Bash on 72?!)

Incidentally, that IS one I like the best, myself. The costuming lady knew just how well it sets off that lovely neck and throat! Mmmmmmmmmmmmm!