Finally!! Someone got it. ;-D Bravo, KJ! Now, how about some comments on the movie?

We've only heard from Elena (and that's because I mentioned Margaret Thatcher) Ha ha! Far out. No, I�m not commenting Colin�s shirts because of Margaret Thatcher but because they make me drool uncontrollably ;-)

Wonder if Colin went to the "Farm and Fleet" store for his clothes LOL! I know the Fleet Farm chain from hubby's homeland in Wisc. In fact, I'll be out there later this week--want any udder cream? It works great on your hands. I swear! Thanks for the excerpt, Karen. V. interesting. (Heide) I'm also sorry they left out a moment during the bickering while playing Monopoly where Jess's face expresses irritation at Ginny's shrill tone. I'd have like to see him show he was not always Mr. Sensitivity. Check out the look on his face when Rose turns the board over. He doesn't look sensitive here--just very annoyed. (Elena) The women were grown up people and free to make up their own mind. I agree, but... They needed sexual entertainment just like he wanted to be entertained, nothing very serious after all Nothing serious? He broke up both of their marriages (the second of which might have instigated Pete's careless death). So you see it as casual sex, huh? I can understand how you arrived at this conclusion, with the essence of Jess' character and ulterior motives lopped out of the film. Fav outfit? Hmmmm. I guess I'll fall in with everyone else and say the "pizza delivery man" shirt (yeah, I got that joke too, Karen. *Sigh* my pizza delivery man doesn't look like that...). I thought all his clothes were OK except the long sleeved red shirt (I agree, Cymbeline, it does look too big) because it was supposed to have been a very hot day (book bias spilling over again). I didn't mind the white one he wore at the picnic. And I liked that leather braid he wore on his wrist throughout. (Heide) Was basing her idea of sizes on those manly thighs ;-) she saw in Pride & Prejudice Heeheehee!

Nothing serious? He broke up both of their marriages Eileen, my point is that I do not see Jess as an exploiter. HE did not broke their marriages, he just gave the women a chance to have fun and boy did they take that chance, at the risk of breaking their tedious marriages THEMSELVES. They gladly lost control. What happened after that casual sex was serious but that�s another story....you see, I�m only talking about Jess�s character and how Colin did the role, and I think he did it fine from this point of view.

I see your point, Elena, and understand how you arrived at your conclusion. Anyone who hasn't read the book or the script was given nothing else to work with in regard to Jess--his background, his motives for returning home, why he hooked up with Ginny in the first place, why he went from Ginny to Rose, etc., etc., etc. The movie reduced all the complexities to a single dimension. Perhaps it would have been a more enjoyable experience (that's probably not the right word for this film, though) if I had not read the book first. But having done so, I can't help but pine for what was cut out. I also think that if Jess had originally been written in this single dimension fashion, Colin would not have been interested in the role.

(Cymbeline) [Jess] comes across as almost entirely a sexual character...his clothes should emphasize his body b/c that is the currency he uses in the film. Couldn't agree with you more. While I adore that shot of Jess in the doorway with the grey Henley, the jeans are way too big. Both Carradine and Anderson's jeans fit like one would expect. And following your example of serious film criticism, Cymbeline, I'm not too fond of the shape of KA's butt! I think the only time I've seen Colin in skintight jeans is in Tumbledown. (Elena) I don't see Jess as an exploiter. The women were grown up people and free to make up their own mind. They needed sexual entertainment just like he wanted to be entertained There is another side to Jess that I think wasn't adequately portrayed in the film. Ginny's having sex with Jess was more an act of rebellion against her life of being the dutiful daughter and wife. Jess was the complete opposite of her father. He saw the Cook sisters as human beings and not the possessions or objects that Daddy did. He's horrified with the connotation of women being referred to as "breeders." Moreover, Jess is a catalyst for Ginny's anger to emerge. Ginny had an unfulfilling and barren marriage with Ty, whose loyalty was with the farm (Larry). Jess, the sexy outsider who runs around shirtless or in skimpy running shorts, reawakens her sexuality, taking away the shame and dread that are legacies from her father and Ty as well. Ginny is flouting conventions, her Daddy's definition of her, and is making a pathetic attempt to explore an alternative to her awful life. (Eileen) He broke up both of their marriages (the second of which might have instigated Pete's careless death). I don't think anyone blamed Jess (except Harold of course and the silent Frack). As I remember, Rose told Pete that she was "with" Jess and he blamed Daddy. Everything stemmed from Daddy's abuse of the girls. We don't see the scene where Pete first goes to Harold's and threatens to shoot Larry before driving off into the quarry. Ginny and Ty's marriage was also doomed because Ty put Larry and farm above his wife. (Eileen) I also think that if Jess had originally been written in this single dimension fashion, Colin would not have been interested in the role. Agree with you here, most definitely.

All right, what is the essential difference between Jess-in-the-book and Jess-in-the-film, except for having more lines, probably? And what�s the most important difference in his character between the script and the film??? Btw has he ever indicated in any of his interviews that because of editing, Jess turned out to be something else than what he expected? Of course it�s interesting to compare the book and the film and to guess what was edited out but after all, most of the audience of this movie never read the book or see the script, they just take the film as it is. I�m one of them and pretty happy with Colin�s stuff in it.

I see Karen that you answered some of my questions before I posted them!!

(Karen) I don't think anyone blamed Jess You're right, none of the main characters (silent Frack--LOL) blamed Jess for the marriage casualties. It was a two way street. Each sister was desperately unhappy despite their lives appearing to be wonderful on the surface. Nevertheless, Jess can't be blameless--he knew they were married. As Elena says, in the movie it seems he was just out for a fling. In the book, he was out for more. And you know what the script says :-) Rose told Pete that she was "with" Jess and he blamed Daddy Yes, Pete hated Larry to the same extent as Ty was loyal to him. It's interesting that they all got along so well--in their own separate versions of reality. Of course, Pete knew about the abuse whereas Ty did not.

(Eileen)Nothing serious? He broke up both of their marriages Those marriages were "goners" long before Jess. In the book...on the day of her tryst with Jess, Ginny inserted her diaphram (he had a condom...in his pocket!)...a little premeditated,I'd say.After all, all he said by the freezer the day before was "Meet you by the garbage heap(?)".... (Elena) I�m only talking about Jess�s character and how Colin did the role, and I think he did it fine from this point of view. I agree.

Having read the book I was disappointed with this movie. Why do they do that? Theyey find a good book and want to make a movie of it, then they proceed to change it so that it comes out nothing like what they read in the first place. One of the worst ones for this was "The Firm." I didn't think there was enough Colin in it.

I agree entirely. One reviewer wrote that it was merely a showcase for the two leading actresses-cum-produceresses ;-) who in reality got so carried away as to show their lack of perspective, a total inability to stand back and overview, and keep a proper distance. An utter reluctance to let go and let live. A complete directorial failure and a lack of direction for which Moorhouse - stripped of her rights - rightly refused to take responsibility. A classic example of too many cooks. A bad case of three h adstrong women (four, if you count the writer - who, although she had no direct hand in it, was very openly disappointed with the outcome) unable to agree on one thing: who was the real director of the movie and why. Or what was the real point of the story. One of the best illustrations of some (but not all) actors' incompetence outside of acting. Not one of my favourite books, but I still think that with a skilfull reworking, it could have been a very powerful adaptation. What was left of it on screen was pathetically inadequate. Naturally Colin and the rest of the cast couldn't know what was going on until the two primadonnas reportedly started messing about with editig.

(Lucie) I didn't think there was enough Colin in it. Amen!

By the way, I meant to argue that Jess was just the catalyst for the breakup of the sisters' marriages but y'all beat me to it. Eileen, been too long since I read the book so help me out here. What do you mean by saying in the movie it seems he was just out for a fling. In the book, he was out for more.? I can't recall other motives.

(Lucie) I didn't think there was enough Colin in it. (Heide),Amen! (Arami), Or what was the real point of the story. I guess we are ready to move on to another one. ;-) just kidding, carry on

(Evelyn) Those marriages were "goners" long before Jess I disagree, in part. Were they healthy marriages? No way. Ginny was pretending to be happy. Rose was miserable. Rose and Pete may well have divorced without Jess' help, but I think Ginny and Ty would have gone right on pretending. I find two inciting incidents in the book and film: 1)Jess comes home and 2)Larry decides to sign the farm over to his children. Together these result in the implosion of the character's lives. (Heide) been too long since I read the book so help me out here. What do you mean by saying in the movie it seems he was just out for a fling. In the book, he was out for more.? I can't recall other motives. You never really know for sure since we only see Jess through Ginny's eyes. However, Jess was clearly out for a farm of his own--he first worked on Harold for all or part of his. He "courts" and sleeps with Ginny during this time (this was glossed over in the film. We only see the kiss and next thing we know, they're in the truck bed. In the book, it's evident that over time Jess wooed Ginny to the garbage dump). Jess was researching organic farming and trying to gain Ginny's support for his ideas. t the church supper, Harold puts an end to his plans when he tells Jess "I know what you're after, and you're not gonna get it." The next thing we know, Jess is with Rose. Her desire to hurt Larry gave him his opening and he took it. They do end up farming together, but it (and their relationship) ultimately fails. So...to me it's much clearer why Jess jumps from Ginny to Rose, but not why he pursues Ginny in the first place. He liked her as a friend and wanted her support for his ideas, but why sleep with her? To wangle a way into her inheritance? For the pleasure of turning this placid, repressed, naive woman into an adulteress? Taking an Oedipal tack, did he see her as a mother figure? Was he trying to quash his guilt about not being there for his mother while she was dying? Any other ideas? (Lucie) Having read the book I was disappointed with this movie. Why do they do that? IMO movies are never, never as good as the books they're based on (miniseries are a different story ;-)). I'm always disappointed when I see a movie based on a book I enjoyed. I'm trying a new tactic--read the book after seeing the movie (have you read Binchy's Circle of Friends? I liked the movie but the book is muuucch better). Elena, I hope this info helps to answer your question regarding the difference in Jess' character from book to film. Essentially, Jess-in-print was waaaaay more complex than Jess-on-film. Hence the pre-editing role was right up Colin's alley. There was more to convey than merely the mysterious stranger who sleeps with two sisters. PS. Thanks for the script, Karen! I received it yesterday afternoon.

Eileen)Rose and Pete may well have divorced without Jess' help, but I think Ginny and Ty would have gone right on pretending. Disagree....if Pete hadn't drowned himself I think Rose would have stayed on even in the abusive relationship because of the girls. Ginny, on the other hand, saw the disloyalty in Ty (who sided with Caroline and Larry.."because of the farm") as a personal attack, and blatant opportunism. He put his interest in the land over his own wife's feelings. Hard to live with someone who makes that choice.

(Evelyn) Ginny, on the other hand, saw the disloyalty in Ty (who sided with Caroline and Larry.."because of the farm") as a personal attack, and blatant opportunism. He put his interest in the land over his own wife's feelings. Hard to live with someone who makes that choice. I agree with you regarding this aspect. So much for love, right? I look at it this way: if Jess had not come along and the story dealt only with Larry leaving them the farm, Ty's disloyalty would still have occurred and would still have affected Ginny. Now...would she have left? IMO her bond with Rose was so strong (united front) and she was such an easily cowed 'sweep everything under the rug' ninny that she wouldn't have had the guts to leave. There were two things that drove her away: the Ty bus ness and her inability to bear seeing Rose with Jess (one could also argue that she didn't want to be near her father any longer). We know from the book that the Rose-Jess issue took precedence, since she went so far as to try to poison her sister. Her love turned to hate and their bond was destroyed. This is, of course, all watered down in the movie. There's only a short shot of Ginny observing Jess and Rose together when he bends to tie her shoe. Ginny leaves after having words with Ty (although she never truly confronts him), leaving the viewer to conclude she left because of Ty. On the other hand, Rose verbalized more about her problems with Pete (his drinking, abuse and rejection of her disfigured post-op body) and fantasized about leaving him before Jess came along. Her intrinsic anger was greater than the sisterly bond which mattered so much to Ginny. So, IMO, she would have had the guts to leave, despite her children. Any other ideas? Thoughts? Where is everybody?

(Elena) And what's the most important difference in his character between the script and the film? In the film, you never get a feel for Jess's background: why he left, why his return turned the county upside down. He's just hanging around, sleeping with the sisters. If he comes across as merely a plaything for casual sex, then the film has done him a disservice. (Elena) Btw has he ever indicated in any of his interviews that because of editing, Jess turned out to be something else than what he expected? Sometimes it's best to keep quiet if one hopes to work again. Colin picks roles that he finds challenging. The book's Jess is interesting and pivotal and the script's Jess has better, character-revealing scenes. (Elena) most of the audience of this movie never read the book Perhaps, but the book was a national bestseller. Probably more people read the book than saw the movie. ;-D (Eileen) Pete hated Larry to the same extent as Ty was loyal to him...Of course, Pete knew about the abuse whereas Ty did not. First off, even when Ty found out, he didn't believe it and said that no one else in the county who'd heard Rose's allegations believed it. They all turned a deaf ear to the truth. Second, Pete never got along with Larry, long before he was told about the abuse. Pete was not the "right kind of farmer" in Larry's eyes and they always fought. Pete was a musician first and foremost, who eventually settled down on the farm and who probably took out his frustrations on Rose before her operation. (Lucie) Having read the book I was disappointed with this movie. Why do they do that? One of those questions we ask all the time. Like Eileen, many times I won't read the book until after I've seen the movie. Seems to work better. (Evelyn) Those marriages were "goners" long before Jess (Eileen) Were they healthy marriages? No way. Both of you have excellent points about the state of their marriages. They were "over" before Jess arrived. Rose may have divorced Pete, but Ginny wouldn't have done anything. She was, as Eileen points out, the "ninny." A weak, spineless, pretending that all was right ninny. She clung to her own versions of reality and what she was "told" to believe by her father and her husband. (which lead me to another comment later...) So...to me it's much clearer why Jess jumps from Ginny to Rose, but not why he pursues Ginny in the first place. But does he really pursue her? From the film, you can see the excitement and attraction on Ginny's face every time he's around. He does sense and take advantage of that. She was willing and he was able... Seriously, from the beginning, Jess seemed more attached to Ginny even when the other Cook sisters were around. [Maybe it was the tabbouleh she made that was the capper. ;-D] (Evelyn) if Pete hadn't drowned himself I think Rose would have stayed on even in the abusive relationship because of the girls. I think Rose was capable of driving Pete away, with the same result as initiating a divorce.

[Maybe it was the tabbouleh she made that was the capper. ;-D] LOL! I think you may be on to something there, Karen. (Karen), Sometimes it's best to keep quiet if one hopes to work again. Colin picks roles that he finds challenging. What was the role he played after this and how soon after did he do it? I keep thinking this film hampered him instead of helped him to get starring roles. Afterall, in the original script his part was much more than what it turned out to be. And of course, working with such *stars* would equate him to them somehow.

(Karen)But does he really pursue her? From the film, you can see the excitement and attraction on Ginny's face every time he's around. Oh yeah? So who kisses her on the ear by the freezer? Who tells her to meet him by the garbage heap?

Sorry to be so behind, but I was catching up on old posts today and ran across this quote from the lady who did the ATA costumes: "We shot in Rochelle, IL, and the location people were sending me newspapers and church bulletins, because there wasn't time for me to go. Local newspapers are very, very useful, because they often have things like church bakes and barbecues in them. I drove to the outer [San Fernando] Valley to shop at K-Mart and Sears and other places... How humiliating, she's talking about my neighborhood. I assure you ladies, that we have other attractions besides Sears and KMart here. And why oh why did this costumer not bring Colin to Sears for his jeans fittings? I could have helped her get the fit right ;-).

...check that inseam..make sure there is enough room for him to bend over...etc etc...*sigh*

(Eileen) I find two inciting incidents in the book and film: 1)Jess comes home and 2)Larry decides to sign the farm over to his children. I agree but why wouldn't you also include Ginny's acknowledgment of her sex abuse. I know you can argue that Ginny would blithely continue her life without it ever returning to her memory but I would argue that Rose could not keep that information to herself forever. I don't think it was only receiving the farm that opened that can of worms and IMO this incident has to be included as a major factor in breaking up the farm and the families. In this incident, Ginny's world is found to be only make-believ . (Eileen) However, Jess was clearly out for a farm of his own--he first worked on Harold for all or part of his. He "courts" and sleeps with Ginny during this time (this was glossed over in the film..) Jess was researching organic farming and trying to gain Ginny's support for his ideas. Yeah, that comes back to me now. Strangely, it doesn't make Jess a duplicitous person to me. He genuinely wanted to practice organic farming (how noble!) and naturally would return to his father's farm to practice it. Ginny is sympathetic and interested in his ideas - he turns to her. The next thing we know, Jess is with Rose. Her desire to hurt Larry gave him his opening and he took it. They do end up farming together, but it (and their relationship) ultimately fails. Excellent point. At this point his plans are all awry and who better to be on his side than the fighter Rose? Jess isn't a fighter, he's a lover. (Karen) I think Rose was capable of driving Pete away, with the same result as initiating a divorce. Agreed. There was no way Rose was going to leave that farm. She felt she had paid plenty for her right to be the new "king". (Karen)But does he really pursue her? From the film, you can see the excitement and attraction on Ginny's face every time he's around. (Evelyn) Oh yeah? So who kisses her on the ear by the freezer? Who tells her to meet him by the garbage heap? Let's just say that her obvious excitement to have him around didn't go unnoticed. The opportunity was seized. I felt sorry for Ginny but I don't think she regretted her liaison with Jess one bit. (Jana) And why oh why did this costumer not bring Colin to Sears for his jeans fittings? I could have helped her get the fit right ;-). Since obviously the costumer couldn't get it right. A little more fit to the form would have been greatly appreciated and I know you would have obliged us.

(Heide)...Jess isn't a fighter, he's a lover. ...it doesn't make Jess a duplicitous person to me. He genuinely wanted to practice organic farming (how noble!) ..... Well...what can I say to a person who thinks Simon Westwood (CoF)is humorous:-) Any minute now...it's gonna be..."St. Jess..":-D We love you for that, Heide (Heide)I felt sorry for Ginny but I don't think she regretted her liaison with Jess one bit. Agree. At the end she tells Rose..."For every one thought I've had about Ty..I had twenty about Jess". I think we can safely say...that Droolies can beat her any day:-D

Well, I was kidding about the "noble" part. ;-)

(Heide) Ginny's acknowledgment of her sex abuse....has to be included as a major factor in breaking up the farm and the families. While I agree that Ginny remembering the abuse is important to her character's development, the farm and family deterioration was well under way (and irreversible) when this occurred. The movie changed when this occurred too--while she was hiding in the dressing room at Roberta's. In the book, Ginny remembers her father coming into her room while she is lying on her old bed that she's just made up for Jess. Now, all it looks like is that Ginny is thinking of Jess as she lies there. OK, all you Kiss Kritics, here's how that first kiss is described: "He smiled warmly at me, then wrapped his hand around my arm, pulled me toward him, and kissed me. It was a strange sensation, a clumsy stumbling falling being caught, the broad, sunlit world narrowing to the dark focus of his cushiony lips on mine. It scared me to death, but still I discovered how much I had been waiting for it." From Ginny's POV, Jess was integral to the story. Listen to this, from the book: "But really the story of those days was the story of Jess Clark, of the color and richness and distinctness his presence in the neighborhood gave to every passing moment. When I think of him, or of that time, I think vividly of his face and figure, and how startling it was, for one thing, to see someone nearly naked in running shorts with no shirt in a world where men wore work pants, boots, and feed cap on the hottest day . I think of the muscles of his legs, defined by years of roadwork into sinuous braids of discrete tensions. I think of his abdomen and arm and back and shoulder muscles, present in every man, but visible in Jess, like some sort of virtue. But the fact is that it's impossible to think of him by himself, apart from everything else. What concentrated itself in him diffused through the rest of the world, too. I always expected him to manifest himself at any time, because everything I saw around me had g tten to be him--it reminded me of him, expressed him, promised something about him. When he showed up, things were complete. When he didn't show up, they were about to be." And that "outsider" image is reinforced by this description from the beginning: "The Clark brothers were both good-looking, but with Loren you had to gaze for a moment to find the handsomely set eyes and the neatly carved lips....Jess was about a year older than Loren, I think, but in those thirteen years they'd gotten to be like twins raised apart that you see on TV....But the years hadn't taken the toll on Jess that they had on Loren: his waist came straight up out of his waistband; his thighs seemed to bow a little, so you got the sense of the muscles inside his jeans. From behind, too, he didn't look like anyone else at the pig roast. The small of his back narrowed into his belt, then there was just a little swell, nicely defined by the back yoke and the pockets. He didn't walk like a farmer, either, that's something else you noticed from behind. Most men walk in their hip sockets, just kicking their legs out one at a time, but Jess Clark moved from the small of his back, as if, any time, he might o a few handsprings." I love how just thinking about Jess arouses Ginny. The night before they have sex in the truck, she gets all hot and bothered thinking about the next day, while she's in bed with Ty and finally has to turn to him to act out. Too bad they didn't use that scene. Would really reinforce how infatuated she was with him.

"...his waist came straight up out of his waistband; his thighs seemed to bow a little, so you got the sense of the muscles inside his jeans. From behind, too, he didn't look like anyone else at the pig roast. The small of his back narrowed into his belt, then there was just a little swell, nicely defined by the back yoke and the pockets. He didn't walk like a farmer, either, that's something else you noticed from behind. Most men walk in their hip sockets, just kicking their legs out one at a time, but Jess Clark moved from the small of his back, as if, any time, he might o a few handsprings." Doesn't it sound almost like ODB :-)) At least it might be the image of him in the producer/director's mind when they picked up CF for the role.

(Karen) First off, even when Ty found out [about the abuse], he didn't believe it and said that no one else in the county who'd heard Rose's allegations believed it. I remember--Ty didn't find out about it until after Ginny left. He stayed true to character and refused to believe Rose. She clung to her own versions of reality and what she was "told" to believe by her father and her husband Yes. Ginny and Ty's marriage was a study of 'let's pretend' and repressed feelings. They're codependent in this aspect. Second, Pete never got along with Larry You're right. (Moon) What was the role he played after this and how soon after did he do it? Let's see...he did ATA in the fall of '96, after Fever Pitch. The next one would have been MLSF, followed by SLOW (both starring roles). After that came SiL and the loooonggg drought. Jess was researching organic farming and trying to gain Ginny's support for his ideas. (Heide) Strangely, it doesn't make Jess a duplicitous person to me. He genuinely wanted to practice organic farming /.../ and naturally would return to his father's farm to practice it. Ginny is sympathetic and interested in his ideas - he turns to her. OK, let me try this on for size. Jess is the somewhat repentant (maybe not) son who returns home after a long absence. He's reunited with his childhood acquaintances, the Cook girls. His sensitive nature draws him to Ginny, the eldest, who is receptive first to his friendship (he finds her easy to talk to), then to his advances. Ginny is flattered that Jess has chosen her over Rose. They sleep together once. After being publicly spurned by his father, Jess' anger sparks a kinship with Rose. He is d awn under her spell of hatred and begins an affair with her. As it happens, she takes over her father's farm and he is able to fulfill his desire to try organic farming. I know that's a crude oversimplification, but the more I think about it, the more it works. Early in the story, during the tomato planting scene, we're given rare insight into Jess' character and some foreshadowing: " [Jess, talking to Ginny] I did have a fiancee. She was killed in a car accident...you know, Alison saw things very darkly. Her parents lived in Manitoba, and they were extremely religious. When she went to live in Vancouver, they repudiated her in specifically biblical terms. The conviction that they truly thought she was damned dragged at her more and more as time went on. The fact was that she was a very kind person, generous and sweet and careful of other people's feelings. Actually, we never rea ly knew whether the accident was an accident. She pulled into the oncoming lane of a two-lane highway, into the path of a semi. She had been depressed, that made it look like suicide. But she endangered someone else. That was very unlike her. /.../ I used to call her parents from bars and threaten to come to Manitoba and kill them...while I was raving, they would be praying for me. I don't think they ever felt remorse...I stopped being mad all the time when I stopped drinking. I mean, that was when I ealized that maybe Alison and I wouldn't have lasted together. I lover her, I really did, but what I loved most was being mad at her parents for her. Being on her side, when nobody else had been that I could see." There's some of Ginny ("kind, generous, sweet") and Rose ("saw things very darkly") in this tragic fiancee. That must be what Colin meant in that Vogue article when he said that Jess was 'licking his wounds with every woman he met' (not to mention Jess' guilt about being absent when his mother died). There is also Rose's deathbed discussion with Ginny (part of this made it into the script. Too bad it was left out of the movie). I think Karen has posted some already: "Jess Clark wasn't the way you thought he was, Ginny. He was more self-centered and calculating than you gave him credit for." I parroted her. "He wasn't the way you thought he was, he was kinder and had more doubts than you gave him credit for." We stared at each other aggressively for a long minute... "Kindness wasn't freely given with him, Ginny, it was a way to get where he wanted to go...the difference is that I loved him without caring whether he was good. He was good enought and I wanted him a d he slipped away. You know what? At the end, he was too good! When it came right down to building something on what we had, it scared him to build on death and bad luck and anger and destruction." Rose goes on to explain Jess' reconciliation with Harold before leaving her and returning to Canada. It was the final undoing of their relationship: "Whatever you have, however passionately you want it and he seems to want it, what he wants more and more is to fit in and be a good boy. Then everything he feels for you feels wrong to him." Ginny sees Jess one way; Rose another. Somewhere in the middle lies the truth. (Heide) wouldn't you also include Ginny's acknowledgment of her sex abuse It bothered me that the abuse had never come up between them until now (they're in their late 30's/early 40's). Perhaps it had something to do with their unspoken competition over Jess' affection? Or maybe Rose had never been this mad at her father before? (Heide) I felt sorry for Ginny but I don't think she regretted her liaison with Jess one bit. Especially since Ginny's writing her version of these events many years after they took place. She's still in love with Jess. He changed her life. That comes through loud and clear in the content Karen posted (above). He didn't walk like a farmer, either You can say that again!

That speech reveals a lot about Jess and does relate it back to the Vogue article's quote. He's had some major disappointments in his life--death of a fiancee and his mother--and the Cook sisters appear to be the only ones to give two hoots about it. "I stopped being mad all the time when I stopped drinking." In the book, he doesn't drink alcohol ever, but in the movie (kitchen scene with MP pushing around some breading) Ty hands Jess a beer, he takes a swig and walks out the door. Guess it wasn't deemed important to retain this little detail of his life! ;-D "...but what I loved most was being mad at her parents for her. Being on her side, when nobody else had been that I could see." Are he and Rose two peas in a pod or what!! Being mad at life and Daddy in particular defines Rose as we"ve all said. In the scene where Rose confronts Ginny about how she watched Daddy go into Ginny's room at night, Ginny denies anything happened to her. Ginny starts to cry and apologizes that it happened to Rose, to which Rose says, "Don't make me feel sorry for myself. The more pissed off I am, the better I feel." Rose's main accomplishment is: "So all I have is that I saw! That I saw without being afraid and without turning away, and that I didn't forgive the unforgivable."

I find it hard to reconcile Jess's kindness and sensitivity with leaving Rose when the cancer recurred.One would think that such a man would remain with her...almost compensating for having left his mother.

I agree, Evelyn, but that was another product of the mucked up script/editing. In the book, he's gone long before Rose's cancer recurs. I hate how they linked the two in the movie. I also thought the "Rose died later that day" business was melodramatic soap opera at it's worst. I was making puking noises in the theater. Blecch!

So, are we saying that there are two Jess's? The one in the book/script according to Ginny and the one in the film...? Which one are we discussing? The Jess in the film doesn't have a background (fiancee dying etc), he doesn't even figure in the future ..he emerges as an adornment..albeit a a pivotal one....but a hunk..a stud... just physical beauty. It's unfair, to judge him as anything else that wasn't in the film....

(Evelyn) So, are we saying that there are two Jess's? The one in the book/script according to Ginny and the one in the film...? Which one are we discussing? Exactly. We really aren't discussing ODB's performance anymore, rather the role of Jess. I started the book last night and am struck to see how pivotal he is in Ginny's life and how much more fully his character is drawn. Also that so far I like Ty better than I did in the movie. He's the only one with a sense of humor so far. Also struck (again--I had read Moo some years ago) with the quality of Jane Smiley's writing. Her physical description of Jess, which someone quoted a number of postings back is great, isn't it? His back came straight up out of his waistband, and the little swell set off by the yoke and pockets, etc. You don't come up with that kind of vivid detail without a good deal of field work. I'm getting a wonderful picture of Smiley sitting in the student union at the U of Minn studying men's a***s, and I like a woman like that.

(Evelyn) It's unfair, to judge him as anything else that wasn't in the film.... Sorry you feel that way, Evelyn. I'm trying to figure out Jess' motivation for 1. coming home, and 2. Getting together with Ginny. You're right about this: The Jess in the film doesn't have a background (fiancee dying etc), he doesn't even figure in the future ..he emerges as an adornment..albeit a a pivotal one....but a hunk..a stud... just physical beauty. Yes, we all agree about that. But IMO it makes for mighty superficial discussion. The Jess in the screenplay has a little more meat than movie Jess. So if we're sticking only to movie Jess, perhaps it's time to move on.

(Eileen)Yes, we all agree about that. But IMO it makes for mighty superficial discussion. The Jess in the screenplay has a little more meat than movie Jess I agree with you absolutely...more interesting to discuss Jess as depicted in the book. Hey, anybody in the book for that matter. And BTW thank you for all the book research and typing all the sections of the book to support you comments. It's just that I'm confused about who we're talking about:Jess in book...script...movie? But maybe it's just me.

Re: Colin�s Portrayal of Jess: IMO Colin originally portrayed Jess as the book depicted him...with all the assets and liabilities. Perhaps even Jane Morehouse interpreted Jess the same.Then the scenes that would have given his character gravitas suffered in the editing. Consequently, the film Jess emerges as a vegetarian -draft -dodger- stud who returned home to talk his father into giving him some land to farm (organic) . And along the way does a little running...and screwing the neighbors� wives.So we are left with a Jess that required no acting skills..only looks. And of course everyone is disappointed. Incidentally, I don�t see the �book Jess� in the script either..although it is marginally better than the film. I maintain that the �movie Jess�is a �boo-hiss� character, because we don�t know all the background that Sue has given us from the bookThe �book Jess� is a nice senstive guy like Heide says.

I agree with you, Evelyn. You can only make a judgment of Jess from what you know and see. Your description of Jess is perfectly valid based simply on the film. It's just so hard for us to keep things simple. ;-) Anyway....forgot I had a power tape of ATA around and found it by accident the other night. (Power tape = Colin only scenes). Think Colin was milking his last scene? Everyone's walking out of the courthouse hallway backs turned to the camera but at the last moment, Jess(Colin) turns his head back to the camera. ;-) I know our boy's not a scene stealer but I always find this funny.

(Eileen) Ty didn't find out about it until after Ginny left. He stayed true to character and refused to believe Rose. I think that, even if Ginny had told Ty, he wouldn't have believed her. During the restaurant scene, Ty asks what happened to the old Ginny (pretty, funny and optimistic). He doesn't like the new and improved Ginny and blames Rose for being the change agent. He would've preferred to go through life with a sweet and complacent wife who said, "yes, Daddy" or "yes, honey" all the time. Better for the farm. ;-D (Eileen) I know that's a crude oversimplification, but the more I think about it, the more it works. It works for me as well. ;-D Thanks for the quotes, Eileen. You can see what a complex character Jess was, but the screenwriter couldn't handle that within the context of a 2 hour movie, and so they made him very one-dimensional as many here have said. (Eileen) Somewhere in the middle lies the truth. Very true. And speaking of "truth," in Ginny's final voiceover, she says that she didn't tell Caroline the truth about Daddy because it would have been Rose's truth. Why do you think she said that? (Eileen) It bothered me that the abuse had never come up between them until now...maybe Rose had never been this mad at her father before? I don't think it had anything to do with Jess, but two other things. First, when she and Ginny talk about the night time visits, she says that Daddy "seduced her; he didn't force her; and she felt special. In a way, she sounds like women who are told they are at least partially to blame if a man rapes them. The other reason Rose finally discusses the issue is her own feelings of mortality, having just survived breast cancer. She has a new life and she won't live with the old poisons inside anymore. (Evelyn) The Jess in the film doesn't have a background....It's unfair, to judge him as anything else that wasn't in the film Aren't we just pointing out that the original character had depth? But you're right, Evelyn, the film version of Jess was little more than a catalyst for the action (dramatic and otherwise)! ;-D As with our other film discussions, background information has always been acceptable. When we point out what is or isn't in the movie, all this is to further an understanding of why the film did not do well with the general public and with critics, many of whom had read the book and saw the film as a pale reflection of it. Moreover, we've always gone beyond ODB's performance to discuss many aspects of the film. Why should this one any different? (Cymbeline) I'm getting a wonderful picture of Smiley sitting in the student union at the U of Minn studying men's a***s, and I like a woman like that. LOL!! I have an interview with Smiley done at the time the film was released. Will dig that out. There are a couple of interesting answers. (Eileen) I'm trying to figure out Jess' motivation for 1. coming home Given they never tell us why he left, seems consistent that this is also not explored. With the film set in the present, they couldn't keep him a Viet Nam-era draft dodger (he'd be a grandfather). No reason is given for why there was bad blood between him and Harold. Just goes to prove that they didn't care enough to give him a background. Usually actors like to create one for their own motivation. Wonder what or if Colin used that approach. (Heide) Think Colin was milking his last scene?...I always find this funny. It sure is, especially when you find out that is the last time you will see Colin in the film. Personally, I would rather he would have slapped MP silly for making a public spectacle of herself in the courthouse lobby, but that's just my view... ;-D

(Karen) I would rather he would have slapped MP silly for making a public spectacle of herself in the courthouse lobby, but that's just my view... I couldn't agree more. Rose (at least as played by MP) was so one-dimensional and angry throughout the film that instead of being sympathetic to the horrors she'd endured, I just wanted to say "Oh, shut up and get over it." I especially hated the courtroom hallway bit.

(Jana2) Rose (at least as played by MP) was so one-dimensional and angry throughout the film that instead of being sympathetic to the horrors she'd endured, I just wanted to say "Oh, shut up and get over it. EAsy to say when one hasn't endured what she had...a sexually abusive father, physically abusive husband, breast cancer and(in her perception) a husband who found her repulsive afterwards...these are pretty heavy burdens for a woman to carry. Actually, I found her the more attractive (?) of the two sisters... ~~~ (Karen) Moreover, we've always gone beyond ODB's performance to discuss many aspects of the film. Why should this one any different? I'm all in favor of discussing all aspects of the film (including cinematography which was excellent!), but Jess's character is so different in each media (book/film). I find I empathize with one and dispise the other. But that is just me as I said previously.There are lots of holes in the book as well...

(Evelyn) EAsy to say when one hasn't endured what she had...a sexually abusive father, physically abusive husband, breast cancer and(in her perception) a husband who found her repulsive afterwards...these are pretty heavy burdens for a woman to carry. I don't think I made myself clear in my earlier post. I agree that the character of Rose had an almost unendurable burden to shoulder and did not mean to trivialize the difficulties her character had experienced. What I meant to say is that MP's portrayal of Rose at that one unwavering level of fury, rather than make me relate, sympathize or understand Rose's plight merely got on my nerves. I wish MP had offered a more nuanced and layered presentation of Rose. (Evelyn) Actually, I found her the more attractive (?) of the two sisters... Very interesting! Actually, I found Ginny a much more sympathetic and interesting character and liked JL's performance quite a bit better than MP's. That's what makes these discussions fun. It takes all kinds to make a world :-).

(Evelyn) Easy to say when one hasn't endured what she had...a sexually abusive father, physically abusive husband, breast cancer and(in her perception) a husband who found her repulsive afterwards...these are pretty heavy burdens for a woman to carry. Ooops!! I think we've been slapped silly by Evelyn! As Jana said, we didn't mean to trivialize her problems. (Evelyn) Actually, I found her the more attractive (?) of the two sisters... JL's performance grated on me. While acting babyish does fit the role to a certain extent, I found it difficult to take after several scenes of the same. They were both one-note performers, lacking subtlety and nuance. Could the same naivete (repression) and anger have been achieved without having to resort to these tactics, I think so.

Sorry for coming in at the end of this discussion. I finally watched ATA last night and liked it better the second time around. I'm afraid that my huge disappointment with CF's role coloured my reception of the film in general on first viewing, but even he looked better this time (and I don't mean just his looks). As I have only just now read the 100+ posts, I am not going to reference anyone's comments and if I repeat anything, please forgive me. My opinions are based on the film, as I haven't read the book or screenplay. Thanks for the references, though. They made interesting reading. In particular, the description of Jess from the book was very droolable, sexy actually...good writing. The visuals, music and narration used in the opening credits were very effective; I thought I was going to see a great film...alas Just a few comments about Jess tonight: DB's looks: Colin looked sensational. Unlike some (all ?) of you, I like him slim. He looked fit, not emaciated. When I saw the People mag picture of him with the dogs, all I could think was that he'd put on too much weight. Colin's slenderness made Jess seem vulnerable and young, IMO. I have noticed that in most of his films, including ATA, Colin's face makes him look heavier than he is. My sister agreed with that reviewer's description of him as stocky in MLSF, yet his body was slim in that film. Favourite outfit: My prurient self votes for the one that Mother Nature provided him with in the truck bed. I really, really wanted that camera to pan DOWN!! (The close-up of Ginny's hands on Jess' chest was a little thrilling, IMO). BTW, did this film settle the debate about ODB's body hair. I guess he is just my kinda guy, sparse body hair and all (again adds youthful vulnerability). I liked his big shirts, even the red one, but not the white one in his first scene; he looked too washed out in it. His clothes reminded o Joe Prince's outfits. Didn't Joe have an awful suit, too? Jess didn't seem like a suit sort of person; maybe that's why it didn't fit. Perhaps, like Joe, he borrowed it or bought it from K-Mart's bargain basement. CF looked quite fine in the henley (my 2nd fav); he wore something similar in FP in the Bread scene, and looked just as jumpable. Re: the kiss. It didn't sizzle, but it wasn't that bad, considering that Ginny and Jess weren't in love. You can't compare it with the one in FF; Cynthia and Joe (well, at least Joe) were passionately in love...and lust). I liked the look Jess gave her after the first kiss and his beautiful smile earlier in that scene; it looked like the one in the Good Taste pic (my wallpaper). That smile is my favourite Colin look. In the well-water discussion scene, his eyes were incredibly huge and dark, very soft. Y ah. I would go for a romp with Jess anytime. IMO, Jess did not come across as an exploiter or as a seducer at all. I agree with the comment that she was ready and he was able. Self-centered, looking to satisfy his own needs firstly, but also adrift and lonely Thirteen years in exile without really making a new life for yourself is pretty grim. As has been said, he was an outsider, maybe using sex as a way to connect himself to what he hoped would be a new life. As for why Jess came back, in the kiss scene he tells Ginny that his father "loves me, wants to win me, thinks he can keep me here, wants to fix me...", so I got the impression that his father had lured him back with a promise of allowing him to try out the organic farming. Harold was getting long in the tooth and maybe the farm was too much for Loren to look after by himself. After the fight, either Ginny or Rose actually said something about his father setting Jess up to be rejected in revenge for him l aving home all those years before. The fight with his dad, who was totally out of line, was very sad. No wonder he sought comfort in women, with a such a deplorable family life. I am not trying to make him a hero, just an isolated, damaged guy who didn't seem able to commit in any area of his life. Not good husband material in any way or even good friend material. More later.

After reading Colin's interview at the site Murph posted at 123, I read Jeremy Northam's. Check this out: Northam praises The Winslow Boy for presenting the drama in a straightforward manner without unnecessarily fleshing out scenes to explain a character's particular motivation. "I'm going to name drop now," he warns. "Paddy Chayefksy said to Sidney Lumet (adopts Chayefsky's thick accent), �There's no rubber ducky scene.' He used to define a rubber ducky scene as: (picks up accent again) �When King Lear was a little kid, his mother took away his rubber ducky and that's why he is what he is.' You don't really know why King Lear goes mad, it just happens. It's not part of the drama's responsibility to say what is the justification, it's justified within itsel ."

(Jana) I liked JL's performance quite a bit better than MP's And of course, you're right...JL got the Golden Globe Award nomination for Best Actress. I just happen to gravitate to strong,"in your face" women. (No analyzing, Karen:-D ) Rose was nasty til the end..I think that was part of her DNA!! I would have hated to see her turn syrupy sweet on her death bed.

(Jana) Actually, I found Ginny a much more sympathetic and interesting character and liked JL's performance quite a bit better than MP's. Me too. Found more layers to her performance than MP's one-note death's head stare. (Karen) �When King Lear was a little kid, his mother took away his rubber ducky and that's why he is what he is.' You don't really know why King Lear goes mad, it just happens. Thanks for the quote. Nice and succinct. Larry went mad because they took away his rubber ducky. Glad we don't have to discuss that story line. Lynda, glad you joined the party. You always bring something new to the mix. You brought something up I had forgotten: in the kiss scene he tells Ginny that his father "loves me, wants to win me, thinks he can keep me here, wants to fix me...", Can this be taken in two ways? Fix as in to "affix" or "fasten" e.g. keep him tied down to the farm or at least in one spot. Or fix as in to "mend" or "adjust", e.g. change him into something Harold thinks he should be.

he is just my kinda guy, sparse body hair and all Sparse ALL? ;-P

(Heide quoting Lynda quoting the book or movie) wants to fix me...", The next line in the book is: "His voice sounded horrified. I said, "You sound like he wants to fix you the way Bob the Beef was fixed." (note: the steer he raised in 4-H) He laughed. "Well, maybe it would feel like the same thing. I don't know." Then he says the line about Frick and Frack and how he and his brother will be living there for the rest of their lives which he also says in the movie. Then he kisses Ginny. So maybe this adds an emasculation fear which is further motivation to go after Ginny and Rose (since they seem to be the only nubile women in his life at the moment)to prove to himself that he's not like his sort of sexless father and brother. This is just as far as I've gotten in the book, so I don't know how it continues into t e affair. It seems plausible that a guy as virile as Jess is pictured would not want to settle into the kind of sluglike existence that Harold is portrayed as living.

(Karen) First, when she and Ginny talk about the night time visits, she says that Daddy "seduced her; he didn't force her; and she felt special. In a way, she sounds like women who are told they are at least partially to blame if a man rapes them. I'm not sure I follow you on this point, insofar as why Rose waited to bring up Daddy's abuse. I totally agree with your other observation. That alone is reason enough. (Evelyn) I find I empathize with one and dispise the other. The cynic in me did not find Jess at all sympathetic in the book. When I read it, I was suspicious about why he hooked up so quickly with Ginny. I thought he was a total sh** to dump her for Rose. Then Rose's condemnation (that may be too strong a term) of his motives in the end confirmed my suspicions. It's only been in the course of this discussion that I've changed my mind, and needed to pull those bits from the book to convince myself (there's nothing to pull from the movie). Re: JL and MP's performances--I also preferred JL to MP. However, Ginny's goodness and Rose's anger both seemed very exaggerated. I don't know if this was the outcome of their performances or if the cutthroat editing contributed. (Karen) �When King Lear was a little kid, his mother took away his rubber ducky and that's why he is what he is.' You don't really know why King Lear goes mad, it just happens. (Heide) Thanks for the quote. Nice and succinct. Larry went mad because they took away his rubber ducky. Glad we don't have to discuss that story line. That's probably the conclusion we would have reached anyway. (Lynda) I am not trying to make him a hero, just an isolated, damaged guy who didn't seem able to commit in any area of his life. I think you've more or less nailed it!

(Lynda) I am not trying to make him a hero, just an isolated, damaged guy who didn't seem able to commit in any area of his life. Oh no...another flaneur :-)))

(Cymbeline) You sound like he wants to fix you the way Bob the Beef was fixed."...emasculation fear I love it...fear of being neutered. Considering how he hopped around from bed to bed, maybe Harold had the right idea.;-) (Evelyn) Oh no...another flaneur :-))) Excellent! At this point I think we've got Jess's character nailed down flat.

(Heide) Fix as in to "affix" or "fasten"...Or fix as in to "mend" or "adjust" I'd go with the latter. Jess wasn't your customary Joe Farmer. We never once saw him (thank god) with a feed cap on!! As the Smiley descriptions of Jess point out, he didn't look or walk like them, and we know he didn't sound like one. ;-D (Cymbeline) "You sound like he wants to fix you the way Bob the Beef was fixed." (note: the steer he raised in 4-H) He laughed. "Well, maybe it would feel like the same thing. I don't know"....So maybe this adds an emasculation fear I love it! An image of Jess as the only bull in Zebulon County and whose job it is to impregnate those cows. All the other menfolk in this novel have already been neutered. (Eileen) insofar as why Rose waited to bring up Daddy's abuse As clarification, Rose said she felt special and that Daddy had seduced her. She became a somewhat willing participant. That might make her feel partially to blame. Therefore, why would she bring it up to Rose when she felt a little guilty herself? Her view changed after the mastectomy. She had a new lease on life and she was going to air the dirty linen. Earlier I asked this question: in Ginny's final voiceover, she says that she didn't tell Caroline the truth about Daddy because it would have been Rose's truth. Why do you think she said that? Anyone thoughts? Another interesting thread is the role of "Mommy." Both sisters say that Mommy didn't tell them such and such. One that is repeated twice (beginning and end in voiceover) is that "Mommy didn't tell them what to think about Daddy." There's also a scene left out of the movie (but in the script and book) where Ginny is at the town swimming pool and Mary Livingstone tells her that she was supposed to tell both Ginny and Rose certain things on her mother's behalf. First she says, " She knew what your father was like, even though I think she loved him." Then, "Lord, Ginny, I shouldn't have brought this up. But I promised your mom, and then Jimmy had his accident, and , well, I let it go. She wanted you to have more choices...There was another thing, too-" Ginny asks what and Mary answers, "Oh. Nothing really." Mommy left everything unsaid, unlike Rose who "saw" and said everything. At the hospital, Rose tells Ginny that she has prepared her daughters unlike Mommy. Ginny's big conclusion is that "Daddy is just a man." What does that say?

Ginny's big conclusion is that "Daddy is just a man." What does that say? I forget..when did she say this? Before or after her memory returned? Not having to much to go on, I'd imagine their mother would not admit to herself what her husband was doing but knew it subconsciously...similar to Ginny. Perhaps with her death imminent, she knew she had to give her daughters something to protect themselves with but didn't really know or admit from what. First she says, " She knew what your father was like, even though I think she loved him." Doesn't necessarily mean that their mother knew and also told her friend what Larry was doing to their daughters. We see he was a tyrant in all ways.

(Karen) As clarification... Gotcha. Thanks. she says that she didn't tell Caroline the truth about Daddy because it would have been Rose's truth Her years away from the farm have given her perspective. She realized that Rose saw things in a particular way, but that wasn't the only way or necessarily the right way. "Daddy is just a man." It seems to me that Ginny was resuming her "default" character: repressed, seeing the good side of things. He may have been 'just a man,' but he was a sick man. (Heide) Doesn't necessarily mean that their mother knew and also told her friend what Larry was doing to their daughters I could be wrong, but I had the impression that the sexual abuse didn't start until after mommy's death. There are other types of abuse, though. He used to beat the children regularly (in the book there's an anecdote about how he beat young Ginny because she lost her shoe after an event at school). [from script] She wanted you to have more choices... Such as, "get off the farm and away from sick, domineering, mean men like daddy"??

(Eileen) Such as, "get off the farm and away from sick, domineering, mean men like daddy"?? Yes or "get off the farm where your main role will be to feed the menfolk. Better to go off to the big city and be a waitress, pouring coffee for men all day." ;-D

(Eileen)"Daddy is just a man." It seems to me that Ginny was resuming her "default" character: repressed, seeing the good side of things. He may have been 'just a man,' but he was a sick man. I agree that Ginny was back to her old character then. Just a thought: in per opinion or view, all Men were the same, they only care about to satisfy their own desires of life. Her just a man include her daddy, her husband, and Jess.

I meant "in her opinion or view..."

she says that she didn't tell Caroline the truth about Daddy because it would have been Rose's truth IMO Ginny is an enigma... book/script & film...Jane Smiley never really defines her. Ginny just reacts to Rose, Ty or Larry all the time. That's why I prefer Rose...one always knew where she stood. To me, Ginny is just as mysterious as Jess.

Now I'm here, and I didn't copy what you said about the pajamas, Heide, so I'm posting this in order to have something new to reload from.

Well it wasn't earth shattering but I find it illuminating that Tommy Judd's pajamas are never buttoned to the neck - remember in one scene when Guy sneaks up behind Tommy and slides his hand underneath his pj top. Doesn't ruffle old Tommy one bit. He's confident in himself and his sexuality. Now in Dutch Girls, poor Neil is always buttoned up, not only buttoned up but his bathrobe is always tightly wrapped too. Fairly typifies his character too - repressed, can't kiss the girl even when she's begging for it. Maybe if we'd see Neil in his pajamas after he throws away his hockey stick, we might see he's loosened up a bit. Too bad we don't see Jess Clark in his pajamas. ;-) Somehow I doubt Nature Boy wears 'em.

(Heide) Doesn't ruffle old Tommy one bit. He's confident in himself and his sexuality. Going from there, what does Tommy reply to Guy in the laundry room when Guy asks if girls are different from boys? I can't ever get it, but it sounds like, "How should I know? I've never even had a girl." If so, then we are to believe that he is a virgin, by implication about the only one among the nonjuniors, whatever their proper title is. Guy has just mentioned Tommy's what sounds like usherette (what does that mean, anyhow; is it some kind of English slang?) who is never mentioned before or after. Makes me wonder if something was left on the cutting room floor. Can anyone who's read the play script shed some light on this? One interesting thing is that Tommy, one of the few who hasn't been with Guy, is the only person who is really his friend and really loyal to him and willing to sacrifice his principles for him. I love the lines, "If you appeal to me as a friend, I'll never forgive you. Menzies did that. I didn't mind it so much from him; he's not a friend." Another is that what happens to Tommy is the same thing that happens to Elizabeth Bennett--he changes by learning the truth from another character, and we see him do it. Just as we see Elizabeth change when she gets self-knowledge while reading Darcy's letter, we see Tommy change when Guy says to him that with all his talk of equality, he's really like the other guys whom he despises so much--he thinks some people are better than others b/c of the way they make love. You can almost hear him say, "Until his moment, I never knew myself." ODB was so good in that role that I'd love to have been able to see him in the role of Guy Bennett. What an interesting study.

Thanks to Karen, I have the script. Bennett: Is it really so different? Judd: How would I know? I've only ever had girls. Nothing about the usherette in the script that I could find (or remember). You know, Cymbeline - usher/usherette in a theater? I imagine a movie theater. The script goes on in the same scene: Judd: I discovered I liked girls when I was eleven. The male body has never attracted me in the slightest. Bennett: It might if you let it. You ought to try everything once, you know. Judd: I wouldn't mind having every girl in the world once. Lucky usherette. I admire Tommy for his integrity, earnestness and even innocence. We know the defects of socialism now but I presume he died before he would have become disillusioned. Another is that what happens to Tommy is the same thing that happens to Elizabeth Bennett--he changes by learning the truth from another character, and we see him do it. I don't take it to that extent but your points are well taken and I'd love to discuss more as long as we're sure ATA is completed. No reason why we can't discuss another film "informally" until we decide what the next film will be (which I think Apartment Zero is in the running.)

he changes by learning the truth from another character, and we see him do it. I think what happens here is that Tommy, who has been living almost entirely cerebrally, begins to understand that there is more motivating him than logical thought. He says to Guy that you can't trust that kind of intuition (after Guy says he knows he will never love women), and Guy says what else is there? Are you a Communist b/c you read Marx? No, you read Marx b/c you know you are a Communist. You can see from Tommy's face that he's never thought about it like that. He assumed he was drawn to Marxism b/c of the arguments in the book. He begins to understand more and become a fuller person. No one else, even Guy, does that. Guy realizes what he's going to have to go through to live his own life, and he becomes bitterly disillusioned when he realizes he's not going to be able to get the rewards that straight men will, but he already knows himself in a way that Tommy doesn't until that convers tion. I'm glad to discuss any books you like or several at once. I've just finished ATA if we have more to discuss there. I love Another Country which I imagine you all did a while back. Thought A0 is one of the most interesting movies I've ever seen besides offering scope for learning some history and politics in an area I know almost nothing about (and that's even without the incentive of ODB). So whatever is decided upon, I'm ready to go to it!

Haven't done Another Country yet so you're in luck. But again, there's nothing to stop anyone from bringing up a film they want to discuss...even if it's already been discussed here. I love the different viewpoints.

Over here at Film Discussion, and I feel as though I'm talking to myself, but I had my first viewing of Femme Fatale yesterday, and I am so sorry to have missed y'all's discussion last summer by only a couple of weeks. Sweet, sweet Joe Prince looking like an overgrown Neal Truelove, and what appropriate names he does get in his movies. I have never seen lust portrayed more eloquently than on the expressive face of ODchameleon (or should I say tree frog), and any time he wants to go to the 7-11 with me, am ready! I went back and read your discussion and found it most illuminating and helpful for my many subsequent reviewings to come. Anything coming up on this discussion board or are we just waiting for the reports of the Donmar goer *next week*?

Sorry, Cymbeline, that I haven't joined in on your comments for Another Country, but I haven't watched it lately. And, as Heide said, we haven't done AC yet on this board...plenty to cover! Usually we like to take a breather between discussions, but feel free to talk about that Prince of a man here. Most have seen it umpteen times and never tire of talking about that 7-11 scene or slamming most other aspects of the plot. ;-D

(Karen) Usually we like to take a breather between discussions I've been breathing too, esp in the 7-11. I'm willing to wait till anyone's ready to discuss anything as long as I can ramble on here trying to catch up with you veterans. I'm way behind on the number of buckets I've been able to fill up. Just saw my brand new copy of AMITC--noticed how red his hair is. Of course it looks as though everyone in the film except Jim Carter is slightly red-headed, so maybe they fiddled with the color somehow--you techies know more about that stuff than I. Anyhow, I really like thinking of ODB as a redhead although he is usually discussed as being dark--not as dark as Darcy I realize--but like the screen door pic. I hope the Donmar party can give us a report on the current state of affairs, color-wise as wel as quantity-wise. And how do you think he's going to look when the gray starts appearing at the old temples? Ahhhhh-mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

And how do you think he's going to look when the gray starts appearing at the old temples? Probably the same as my mom, who swore she never had any grey hair, but then again, she never saw her natural hair color. ;-D BTW, saw Dustin Hoffman on the TV. No grey on him either...

saw Dustin Hoffman on the TV. No grey on him either.. Nor on Ronald Reagan as I remember. Can you mean you think ODB is going to employ artificial means to deny acknowledging what comes naturally? Next you'll be telling me he's planning a face lift like Richard Chamberlin. ODB's going to age like Paul Newman, and he won't need any help. And please don't start sending me a load of citations detailing what Paul Newman has done to himself over the years. I don't want to know!

I think ODB will let a few silver strands show through - better grey than the alternative IMO. Look closely, girls, when you see him in person. 'Course I'm older than him and my hair's the same color it was the day I was born. ;-) But Speaking of hair color in AMITC, my copy doesn't show it as being particularly red though it was sort of amber in the bright sun. Methinks that's his natural hair color - not as dark as Darcy. Doesn't it break your heart when he lets Alice get away?

my copy doesn't show it as being particularly red though it was sort of amber in the bright sun Not bright red but red as opposed to any other color. I think that's my favorite movie for hair color of all the ones I've seen except maybe AC which is about the same. Doesn't it break your heart when he lets Alice get away? It is a riveting scene, both of them just bursting to speak and completely inarticulate. And Alice hangs around for as long as she can, then she comes back with the book, then she pauses on the ladder, then her hat sinks below the floor and you know it's over and she has to go back to that latterday Mr. Collins. You can see why ODB said it's the role he's proudest of--someone did say he said that, didn't she? KB is good too--that scene in the pub where he touches on his war experiences--both of them are great there. Isn't it rather nice that, though Tom Birken lost her, his grandson John McCarthy finally got her?

Isn't it rather nice that, though Tom Birken lost her, his grandson John McCarthy finally got her? Uh oh, should we tell her what really happened? :-o

...is that the sound of disillusionment setting in I hear...?

(Cymbeline) Can you mean you think ODB is going to employ artificial means to deny acknowledging what comes naturally? Next you'll be telling me he's planning a face lift like Richard Chamberlin Or (gawd forbid) Jack Lemmon, whose eyes are now perpetually open? Speaking of nips and tucks, in both AMITC and Hostages NR had her old nose. Regardless of what really happened. (Which is what, Karen?) CF and NR were great together in both. I loved AMITC but had alot of trouble hearing and understanding certain lines. The book helps (it's a quick read).

What really happened? To John McCarthy and Jill Morrell...they split up. Saw a mention in the news not long ago about JM - he married a woman who was the editor on a book he wrote. So sad. Bethan can tell you more.

they split up Oh, that.

I saw a really interesting documentary a few weeks ago that was all about the hostage crisis. Really fascinating stuff that sort of tied up all the political events for me. The best part were the bits of interviews with John McCarthy, Brian Keenan, Thomas Sutherland (did I get that right?), Terry Anderson and Terry Waite. They also interviewed Jill Morrell briefly. I thought her voice and manner of speaking sounded amazingly like the way Natasha Richardson played her character. BTW, John McCarthy was by far the wittiest and most entertaining of the interviewees. I can see why the other prisoners said he helped them keep their sanity. CF played him very well, IMHO, but I don't think anyone here will argue with me about that!

Let me throw a question out and see if it generates any conversation. Don't know why it popped into my mind - maybe from Nancy's happy event over at 34 - In which films does CF's character impregnate someone? Looking particularly for films where the pregancy occurs during the film, not before. Besides naming the film(s), perhaps you'd like to discuss whether it's a happy event and would his character be a good father.

No one's answered this yet?! OK, I'll bite... The two that come to mind immediately have to be: Fever Pitch and Valmont. Can't you just see Paul as a father? I can. He'd be having a great time playing with the kid (that is, if it were a boy) and dragging him as soon as he's able to Arsenal games. He'd be a horrible father in Sarah's eyes. More like a single-parent situation but with two children, exactly what she fears. Now Valmont, would never have the opportunity to acknowledge little Cecile's baby as his own, but I can imagine he'd be just as proud as Auntie Madame de Rosamonde. ;-)

Yeah, Paul would treat his kid like a buddy and of course all the baby clothes would be red and white or yellow and blue. I think Valmont's child would be one of those secrets that everyone knows. He might have enjoyed rubbing Gercourt's nose in it every now and then. There's at least one more film where he plays a daddy-to-be...

Oops, how could I forget Mr. By-the-Book! ;-)

It's too bad radio plays aren't included here...you could add Rupert Brooke.

Wow! That's right. Forgot about him. Are there more?

Good for you, KJ. We can count Rupert. I think he'd make the worst father of all!

Worse than Simon? ;-)

Neither would provide the emotional support and attention a child needs. I see Simon as rather consciously egocentric, i.e. he'd practice studied and purposeful indifference, whereas Rupert strikes me as rather vague and ill at ease...he'd be a "Ned-like" father, I think.

Simon would be distant but I think he liked little kids...at least, little girls. Considering the mummy Rupert had, I don't think he'd make a very good daddy. He'd be having a nervous breakdown every time the kid had a tantrum.

(Heide)In which films does CF's character impregnate someone? I finally saw Valmont again yesterday (I have had some converting trouble Karen but yes, now it�s done) and I see now that he really did impregnate "someone" in it. Didn�t remember he did that because the first time I saw Valmont was 10 years ago. Ladies, I think I�m suffering from a severe Valmont trauma at the moment, the film makes me melancholy. Reasons: 1.) It�s a great movie and it shocks me how underrated it is, it does not deserve the oblivion. It�s just not right that this film is so totally forgotten because it�s clearly a better movie than Dangerous Liaisons or whatever that gross movie of JMalkovich was called, in terms of ambitious film making. I think it was a wonderful idea from Forman to make Valmont look so innocent and utterly charming while doing terrible things, it�s an intelligent and a plausible approach. 2.) Now I finally and completely understand what Colin must have felt like when this film was not a big success. It must have been a terrible disappointment and not only becuse of his own career but because of the business and audiences in general. Quality is not what counts in this world and realizing this fact in any trade can badly ruin one�s illusions and ambitions. 3.)Colin is very good in Valmont, he really acted full-heartedly I think, and he must have truly believed that they�re making a masterpiece. One of his best performances.

I agree, Elena, Valmont is one of his best performances along with Apt.O and P&P.

Always happy to talk about our beloved Valmont. Agree that it is shockingly underrated. I've argued (facetiously, but you know it's fun) that it was Meg who undermined our boy's career for a time. What a fool for love he became. ;-) But one could argue (and many have) that it was the failure of this film that made him step back a bit. Perhaps he was starting to crave bigger things. His star was certainly rising. Would love to know how much influence this experience had with his career and if it caused him to re-assess his career values. He certainly had enough time to do that. I think it was a wonderful idea from Forman to make Valmont look so innocent and utterly charming while doing terrible things, it�s an intelligent and a plausible approach. I too like Forman's approach for all his characters - young and pretty, even Annette looks like sugar can't melt in her mouth. In DL, Malkovich looks like a snake. Still I also enjoy Dangerous Liaisons and think the quality is equally high. Just a different approach, more dark and decadent, imo. One of his best performances. Don't you just love him at the end when he's realized what he's lost? To me it's like he's laughing at himself not only for what he's become but for what he's missed all his life. To him death was his only redemption. Grrr..., these noble men.

..I've argued (facetiously, but you know it's fun) that it was Meg who undermined our boy's career for a time. What a fool for love he became. ;-) But one could argue (and many have) that it was the failure of this film that made him step back a bit Ahem...May I have equal time???? IMO (and remember that before you flame me) ;-) We can always blame someone else for the poor decisions we have made... I have never blamed Meg for his career decision. He did it himself...he was not exactly 20 years old either.He is a rebel by nature (and we love him for it) and this type of behavior is characteristic .I think having a child,a loving understanding wife ,and another life besides his career has altered his perspectives.. He is no longer career-driven .I don't consider him a failure...he seems v. content.

(Heide)the quality is equally high. Just a different approach Well, what is quality? Is it quality to play it safe and give the audience what the majority of them wants? That is entertainment and money-making IMO and that�s the difference between the two films I think. Valmont looks like a film that was done primarily to make a good film. DL on the other hand is primarily a marketable product, and very good at that. I appreciate it that Forman gives the audience freedom to understand what kind of people Valmont and Mme de M. really are, without splashing it on our faces. That�s quality, I think. For intance, I like it in Valmont that his death is not actually shown. That�s a very uncommercial choice, almost revolutionary. (Reminds me of what Colin once said about sex scenes; that it�s not necessary to show everything).

(Evelyn) He is no longer career-driven. I don't consider him a failure...he seems v. content. Warning! Warning! I see another debate coming up again. ;-) I beg not to be blamed. After all, I did use the word "facetiously". Elena, I believe we differ in just one point. I perfectly understand your admiration for Valmont and have hopes one day it will be "discovered". Wondering if anyone is actually reading my posts. ;-)

Colin Firth is appearing at this moment on the Spring's webcam in "Turn of the Screw".

(Heide)Wondering if anyone is actually reading my posts. ;-) Hehe, aren�t we all? I mean: wondering if anyone is actually reading our posts! But I�m not yet giving up hope ;-)

Am very pleased to see your posts, ladies. Valmont has been on my mind since I caught most of it on cable 2 weekends ago (have the tape, but haven't popped it in lately). (Elena) 3.)Colin is very good in Valmont, he really acted full-heartedly I think, and he must have truly believed that they�re making a masterpiece. One of his best performances. You've read my mind, Elena. This is why Valmont stays at my #2 'best of' spot. I've been asking myself if it's because he's the main character and is on screen so much, but I think there's more. He's so totally and completely Valmont and no other character (indeed, this was made much earlier in CF's career before all the others came along, but lately, since I've watched him over and over in so many things, Colin's new characters strike me more as conglomerations of older ones). And yes, it must have been a disappointment--wasn't Forman hot from his Amadeus success at the time Valmont was cast? This had to be one of those 'big breaks' CF referred to in the A&E interview. Too bad audiences can't bypass the irresistable urge to compare Valmont to DL. They're each so good but so different (love the end of DL when everyone laughs at Mertuil (sp?) and she's mortified. It's more satisfying). I can watch Valmont again and again (fast forwarding through the insufferable Cecile-Dalceny (sp?) parts, of course) and never get tired of CF in it.

(Evelyn)I have never blamed Meg for his career decision. He did it himself...he was not exactly 20 years old either.He is a rebel by nature (and we love him for it) and this type of behavior is characteristic . I agree but IMO he did not make a wise decision. Just imagine that he had not hiden away after Valmont, his career might be a boom many years earlier (he was main cast in Valmont after all, someone had to notice him!). He never really talks about that period of his life since he is such private man. Don't you think that he regrets? I do for him ;-) I think having a child,a loving understanding wife ,and another life besides his career has altered his perspectives.. I don't think he and Meg were ever married or am I mistaken?