(Heide) The name of the place where Joe first sees the Maura video escapes me now The Waste Gallery?? (Heide) He is truly a prince among men. Think that's deliberate, Karen? ;-) Ask Arami. ;-p Shouldn't have put my *homework* on the floor! That dog has no respect... tsk tsk...

(Evelyn) Billed as a psycho-thriller Really? Puh-leeze! (Heide) "You're from England, aren't you." Duhh. Hee hee! Da dumb blonde broad from Brooklyn (with a terrible accent, too). The Waste Gallery Did you notice the camera over the urinals? I didn't until this last viewing (while doing my homework :-P). Elijah pushes it over towards Joe. BZ's not so bad, IMO. CZ's not great but at least you could tell the difference between her character's personalities (Cynthia vs. Elizabeth vs. Maura) and compared to the female lead in 'P' she's terrific. (Lynda) Joe is young, passionately in love and idealistic, so this naivete is, to me, a flaw in Joe's character, (one shared by many, many people, therefore, believable), not a flaw in the screenplay. Yes, Joe's so naive he believes he can help her after browsing through a few books, such as 'Sybil.' That's perfectly consistent with his character. He can't stand the thought of losing her, so he'll do whatever it takes. I have no gripes about this theme in the script. It's how her personalities seem to come out as if on cue (e.g., Elizabeth doesn't take over until after the wedding; Cynthia convenienty emerges during the final drive to Joe's), among other things, that lead me to diss the script.

Yes...Lisa Zane and Billy are sibs. Re: LZ...She is about the worst actress I have ever seen No...IMO Jennifer Rubin (P.) is the worst...but LZ is close second. Re: the urinal scene....did anyone notice that after they "releived " themselves Elijah shook **it ** several times. Joe didn't....or did he and my Lifetime tape edited it out. themselves....Elijah shooj

sorry for the extra tag line...I wonder where it went:-)

That whirring sound you hear is the world-wide rewind and fast forward of thousands of VCRs looking for the Urinal scene. Thanks, Evelyn. No, had not noticed before!

OK- have ordered FF from reel.com and *fingers crossed* hopefully it should appear in a few days. Meanwhile, i'll continue to read all your interesting comments and live in eager anticipation of its arrival. :) Cant wait to check out that Urinal scene *hee hee*

While everyone is checking the U scene....check this one out.... I thought Mr. Darcy's hair on his chest was black (or so it look through the white shirt).In the last scene of FF...Joe Prince's chest hair is very light...almost non-existent....Is that my tape? Or did they dye Mr. Darcy's chest hair too. (getta life,evelyn!!)

I have seen several pictures where it is quite light, but then so is his head-hair. I think they dye it to match if he's dark and it is to show.

In The Advocate he's got quite a dark patch but then his hair is dark. In other films, his chest hair is invisible. Guess I'll wait for MLSF to make a final determination. There I go, breaking my promise to myself not to discuss that M...film anymore. Anyway, back to FF. I like what you said, Eileen (I think) about Cynthia so conveniently changing her character at just the right moment. She turns back into Maura when the gangsters find her back at Joe's place, she turns into the Baby when things go bad when they're digging for the money at the end. A personality to match every mood! Love near the beginning when Joe comes to Elijah's apartment and flops backwards onto his bed. I've noticed him do this move in quite a few other films...Wings of Fame, The Advocate, Lost Empires, to name a few. Another Colin signature like the famous hand to mouth signature move he does in almost every film? I actually like Billy Zane in this film and as I've said before I really enjoy the buddy relationship between the two.

(Heide) I actually like Billy Zane in this film and as I've said before I really enjoy the buddy relationship between the two. I agree, this is one of my favorite aspects of this film. The male friendship seems real and warm, unlike most of the other preposterous elements. I'm not a huge BZ fan (thought he was a bit too Snidely Whiplash-ish in Titantic) but I enjoyed his camaraderie with CF in FF. And for those of you with only the tape of FW from Lifetime channel, I would recommend purchasing the original video if you can dig up the scratch. I've seen both and let me assure you that the bits they cut for Lifetime are ahem, definitely worth seeing!

I seem to remember that in MOTM (when he is buttoning up his shirt in the first episode) his chest hair looks luxuriant...and I think he has his natural colour in MOTM. My contribution to the FF discussion! :-) It's very hot and humid over here....my brain cells have wilted!

(Eileen) my favorite Firth film looks-wise. Joe is quite the hunk, IMO. He looks so Neil Truelove, especially during the opening credits wedding scenes. Maybe it's the haircut or the amount of hair he had! (Eileen) the baseball-style cap, which was too far back on his head Is that what the problem is? Sheesh, hadn't figured that one out. (Eileen) it would have been a better movie without those stupid amateur (on purpose, I know) crooks I kept thinking "who would be afraid of a poorly dressed golfer?" Anyone else notice the resemblance to Lenny or is it Squiggy? ;-D (Eileen) At the art gallery, how about that live sculpture mummified in toilet paper? Was that ODB? It sure looked like him. What was the meaning of that? What excellent eyes you have!! I never noticed it before, but it sure looks like him. Joe is walking around taking it all in, then he sees the mummy and his face changes. He looks disturbed. Maybe he sees the resemblance. And was that Cynthia-as-Maura popping up on Elijah's TV as he's surfing through the channels? You mean the platinum blonde with the poodles? This was before they had the Jenny Purge video, right? (Eileen) when Joe finds Elizabeth in the wheelchair in her father's home, she moves her feet when he approaches her. Could she move them all along? You mean when she's using them to help her turn the chair around to escape Joe? ;-) Oh yeah, she just thinks she's paralyzed; Beth is her paralyzed personality. (Eileen) Cynthia/Elizabeth sure showed up at the right time (likely just another plot flaw). My favorite is when Maura comes out at the end to deal with Dino, Desi and Billy and Jenny. (Eileen) "I'm here" I take it that means "I haven't run off again" I'm in the same camp. She hasn't run off again. The other (i.e., I'm cured) is just too implausible for me to believe. But it could be...NOT!! (Lynda) I also love the talking Cynthia to sleep scene Has anyone noticed a little Darcy deja vu moment here? When Joe comes running in, he says "can I get you some aspirin?" Just like "can I get you something for your present relief" at the Inn at Lambton. (Evelyn) The Zane sibs lack talent Big Time. They're awful. (Eileen) BZ's not so bad, IMO. CZ's not great but at least you could tell the difference between her character's personalities I agree, Billy wasn't too bad and Lisa!! Didn't you think she did a bang up job playing all those roles? Don't think Sally Field or Joanne Woodward could do any better. ;-) (Evelyn) Will ask psychologist son about MPD....but he usually de-bunks such stuff Interestingly, the father (a psychiatrist) says he doesn't believe in MPD either when he's showing Joe the video in his office. He says that "she's one person who has walled off different aspects of her personality." (Evelyn) Re: the urinal scene....did anyone notice... Don't get me started on this!! My all-time pet peeve about movies and television. When did someone decide that we needed to watch men facing a wall and hopping up and down? Do all important men's conversations have to take place at a urinal? Then it expanded to women. In Secrets and Lies, the wife is sitting on the toilet reaching for a tampon. There are just some bodily functions I don't need to see in movies. Ugh!! ...and no, Evelyn, he didn't shake it. But there was a great stride out of the bathroom. Very purposeful, like he didn't want to be filmed in there and couldn't get out fast enough!! Am compiling my list of favs (lines, scenes, looks, etc,) but I have some nagging questions: I just noticed that Joe said he and Cynthia had been together for a year and a half before they were married. Other than a few headaches, she seems to have been just fine all that time. Strange that the father hadn't mentioned anything about searching for her. I mean if you had a sick daughter like her, don't you think he would have hired people to look for her? Why hadn't Joe taken the TP off the truck when he went to pick up the pictures three days after the ceremony?

(Karen) I just noticed that Joe said he and Cynthia had been together for a year and a half before they were married. I thought that too, but I believe Elijah made that comment, when Joe and he were in the pool - meaning that Joe has been going on and on about Cynthia without really saying anything about her. At the cemetery, Ted (or was it Ed) said that Maura went to Vancouver three months earlier and diappeared. (Karen) Strange that the father hadn't mentioned anything about searching for her. I mean if you had a sick daughter like her, don't you think he would have hired people to look for her? Dr. Beaumont told Joe at the end that Cynthia had gone off before and that sometimes he wished she wouldn't come back. He didn't fight too hard to keep Joe from taking Cynthia away; IMO, though feeling guilty about it, he was relieved to be handing over the responsibilty to someone else. Re the multiple personalities and how conveniently they appeared in FF, my husband (and I, though not very attentively) were watching Dateline NBC this past week and it was profiling a man who apparently suffers from this disorder. I remain very sceptical, but my husband (and others on the show) was convinced - said he could actually see the man change in response to stress- inducing questions. Perhaps personalities change in response to external stimuli. I do not think Cynthia was acting. She was paralyz d when she was with her dad - some kind of (unconscious) sick script she and her dad enacted over and over. I still believe that she had a better chance (though perhaps not much of one) with Joe than with her dad. Favourite Looks: The beautiful smile Joe flashes at Cynthia as she lies on the floor; the look on his face when Cynthia tell Joe she likes his drawings in the nature centre scene (in fact, I adore Joe's face in that entire meeting Cynthia scene, depite the baseball cap. Completely adorable). Favourite clothes: the sweater he wears in the proposal scene - makes him look so big and strong and virile. Actually, I liked all Joe's clothes in FF Favourite scenes: nothing origianl here.The proposal scene - loved Joe and Cynthia dancing, Joe saying "Mrs. McGillicuddy's home for fallen felines" and "they get squishy". The lovemaking scene - CF gave Joe a physical tenseness and stiffness that I found very erotic (and not seen by me in any other lovemaking scene I've watched). I am partial to the scene in Elijah's trashed-out apartment, when Joe talked about being better than the world - I wanted CF to keep talking indefinately. Most uncomfortable scene: the kidnapping, particularly Joe with a gun in his mouth, pleading. No macho man here, but a real guy helpless in a horrifying situation.

I do agree with you, Lynda, that Cynthia/Elizabeth has more of a chance with Joe than with her "enabler" father. Don't really think she has much of a chance at all without proper treatment. What is the cure rate for MPD? Didn't we once rate their marriage the least likely to survive? Slightly lower than Paul and Sarah in Fever Pitch but that's another story. I have some stupid questions but they're nagging at me: Who are all these people at the wedding? Cynthia's been there for 3 months and Joe doesn't strike me as a very social guy out there in the woods. Who loves more in this relationship? Joe drives Cynthia back to the cabin. He thinks she's still paralyzed until they get to the store the next morning and she tells him she doesn't need his help. What did he do when they had to take a bathroom break? This film does give us some showcasing moments for Colin's subtle expressions. I love his acting when he first meets the model Andrea and she starts to undress. Shyness, embarrassment, and interest all rolled into one. He looks at her, looks away, fidgets with his collar as his eyes move back to her. Then he bites the bullet and strides over to her to introduce himself. The handshake was omitted in the Lifetime version, I believe because she's topless at that point. Also his growing awareness of what his wife was as he watches the video of Maura for the first time. Elijah is scoffing and scornful, disbelieving this could be Joe's wife but the camera pans in on Joe as he accepts this fact. Is it possible to project hopeless acceptance? And another...his reaction when Jenny tells him that Maura and she were lovers. "You do know about her and me." Lightning bolt! "You were lovers." He takes off the icepack from his head and strides to the window. You can see him thinking, "okay, I can deal with this, but please don't tell me anymore." A couple of standing at the window scenes but no real Darcy moments that I detect. A bit of a stretch to say Joe driving through the night to get to LA to find Cynthia is the same Avenging Angel bit as Darcy riding through the night to get to London to find Lydia but I'll go for it. (Lynda) The lovemaking scene - CF gave Joe a physical tenseness and stiffness that I found very erotic (and not seen by me in any other lovemaking scene I've watched). Well put, Lynda. Tense and stiff are the right adjectives. We love to speculate on what could have caused that rather startled expression on his face at one point. Thanks for posting the mummy picture. There's no question now that is Colin/Joe. What do you think the point of that is? And Eileen, I see now that the scene where Elijah is watching a tape that looks like Cynthia is before they even went to the Waste Gallery so that can't be the video they picked up there as I replied. Same idea then as the mummy and Joe? Billy Zane's okay in this film. Favorite exchange is while Elijah is painting: E: "No art in England." J:"I got a scholarship...." E. "...from Masterpiece Theatre." Favorite outfit is the black tee shirt and black leather jacket (that old familiar jacket) he wears to the tatoo parlor. Most uncomfortable scene: the kidnapping, particularly Joe with a gun in his mouth, Pretty awful to see our boy that helpless. Most frustrating scene: Joe's got the gun, he lets Ted/Ed (or is it Desi or Billy-like that, Karen) hit him with the shovel. Then Joe takes a weak swing at Ted/Ed and just stands there leaving himself wide open for another punch which of course he gets. I know our boy is a lover not a fighter but I think I could even have protected myself a bit better.

Thanks for posting the mummy picture. There's no question now that is Colin/Joe. What do you think the point of that is? IMO there's no significance for the storyline. I always imagined it as a joke, very likely the result of an off-camera fun. You can even see him grin under that paper. The toilet-paper-mummy is an inserted, unconnected shot, and not part of the countershot which shows us the whole scenario Joe is watching. Since I discovered that, my view of the whole film changed. I take it less serious, more from an ironic angle, and it improved a lot! :-) I got the impression they must have had some fun at least, when aking that film.

(Karen) He looks so Neil Truelove, especially during the opening credits wedding scenes. Maybe it's the haircut or the amount of hair he had! I did see the *sob* bald spot, though. It's when he's with Jenny. I don't recall the precise moment, but the ice pack is off and he turns his head. There it is (funny how I never noticed it until you Donmar ladies verified its presence. Now I notice it all the time. I suppose I was in denial). (Lynda) I adore Joe's face in that entire meeting Cynthia scene, depite the baseball cap. Completely adorable Don't you love it when he says "yeah--drink beer?" I've not heard him say a line like that! (Heide) Love near the beginning when Joe comes to Elijah's apartment and flops backwards onto his bed. I've noticed him do this move in quite a few other films...Wings of Fame, The Advocate, Lost Empires, to name a few It reminded me of Valmont falling backwards into the water, as the talking Cynthia to sleep scene reminded me of the letter dictation to Cecile. You can just close your eyes and listen...*sigh* (Heide) She turns back into Maura when the gangsters find her back at Joe's place, she turns into the Baby when things go bad when they're digging for the money at the end. A personality to match every mood! (Lynda)Perhaps personalities change in response to external stimuli I can buy this, but then why didn't Cynthia change into someone else while she and Joe were "dating," whether it was three months (much more believable) or a year and a half? As Karen says, other than a few headaches, she seems to have been just fine all that time. Again, I don't think this movie was striving for clinical accuracy. (Heide) What did he do when they had to take a bathroom break? Hee hee! Good point. Joe was drinking all the coffee (3 cups stacked). Perhaps he just pulled over when nature called (and didn't shake it afterwards ;-P ) (Lynda) I do not think Cynthia was acting. She was paralyzed when she was with her dad - some kind of (unconscious) sick script she and her dad enacted over and over It's plausible that Cynthia (rather, Maura) purposely faked Elizabeth in order to hide out from Dino, Desi and Billy (LOL, Karen--now there's a blast from the past) and even Joe. I believe MPD patients become aware of their various personalities while they're in treatment. (Lynda) Dr. Beaumont told Joe at the end that Cynthia had gone off before and that sometimes he wished she wouldn't come back. He didn't fight too hard to keep Joe from taking Cynthia away; IMO, though feeling guilty about it, he was relieved to be handing over the responsibilty to someone else A pox on Dr. Beaumont as both a physician and a father. He meets Joe in his professional capacity and appropriately advises him that he can't divulge any details of his patient's history even though Joe's her husband (as verified merely by those snapshots. What if it had been Halloween?). Less than a minute later he "does a 180," abandons all professional ethics and readily breaches confidentiality to spill the gory details. As you said, Lynda, he never should have been treating her in the first place He's professionally unethical, paternally guilt-ridden, burnt out, hopeless and ready to hand the baton to someone else: a complete stranger who is naive and unprepared to take on a patient with an extensive history and who's been refractory to treatment. My initial reaction to all this was *phooey* but, hey, it could happen :-p Thanks for that snappy, Karen. My videotape kept jumping when I froze it so I wasn't sure. (Renate) I got the impression they must have had some fun at least, when making that film. Absolutely. Or just had a really low budget (no funds for extras--had to pay Dino, et al.). (Karen) Why hadn't Joe taken the TP off the truck when he went to pick up the pictures three days after the ceremony? Because he's in L-U-V and is so happy to be married, he wants the whole world to know about it. Didn't that truck crack you up? Loved those animal cutouts above the door. (Heide) Who are all these people at the wedding? Cynthia's been there for 3 months and Joe doesn't strike me as a very social guy out there in the woods. Yeah, who are they? Thirsty park visitors? Shoppers from the convenience store? Perhaps after Joe and Cynthia got together they entertained alot?? Cynthia can't know anyone and Joe, as Elijah put it, likes to run away and hide. Which begs the question...why? We really don't know much about Joe. He came to the US from England on an art scholarship, loves nature, is talented but has abandoned painting (why?). In pursuit of the "succubus" theme, I would think the Joe character would be pure and naive period. The artsy nature-lover fits the bill. Why introduce this conflict? So Cynthia could draw him out and make him paint again?

Re: MPD Psychologist son does not consider this a bonafide psychotic mental disorder.And does not take the condition seriously. This condition was never identified until this century and then the number of cases skyrocketed.....known only in the US...ocurrs more often in women .Has recently gone down in number. Can be compared to the condition of �being possessed by the devil�(which is virtually unknown today).Or people who �hear voices�. In other words...it is a contemporary eccentric cultural mental condition. Of course Elizabeth probably inherited some schizophrenic genes from her mother and then was abused by her....so the poor girl was a prime candidate for a serious mental disorder....perhaps she manifested it in MP. This is his opinion only.... you understand. For the doctors who do treat MPD the usual protocol is hospitalization and therapy. Of course without MPD we would not have had the storyline of FF. But one must think that the future of this marriage looks grim...unless Joe makes a commitment to love Maura/Elizabeth...or whomever he wakes -up next to in the morning. and that could make an interesting marriage...for sure it would never be dull. ****** I have an extra FF tape( Lifetime version). And will gladly give it to anyone who promises to join in our discussion. Pl. email me.

Pardon me for the spelling errors in my last posting; I was watching Fever Pitch (again) and was distracted by the coffee cup scene as I proofread.. I love this film, more so every time I see it. CF is sooo cute and RG (and the whole cast) is terrific too. I certainly want to see this on the big screen. (Evelyn) But one must think that the future of this marriage looks grim...unless Joe makes a commitment to love Maura/Elizabeth...or whomever he wakes -up next to in the morning. and that could make an interesting marriage...for sure it would never be dull. Joe asks Cynthia in the truck and in bed about her personalities so his committment may not be the problem. His real difficulty is going to be living with someone who may run out on him at any given time or who may drag him into serious unpleasantness. He's never going to be relaxed in this marriage and will always be afraid to upset her. It's no way to live. BTW, Joe does show some (understandable) anger in the truck and in the grocery store at the end. Will he be able to control it forever? He has been badly deceived and ill-used. Look at Joe's face while he's watching the Marilyn video in the motel room - when he realizes that everything Cynthia told him in the lovemaking scene was word-for-word from the script of the MM video.

IMO whatever it was that attracted Joe to Cynthia in the first place (her lovely tattoo, perhaps?) will not withstand the stressors you mention, Lynda and Evelyn--never knowing who he's waking up with or if any of them will even be there. IMO this movie peaked before the drug sub-plot and went somewhat downhill until its "huh?" ending. But how else could it have ended (the storyline of Joe and Cynthia, that is)? I think most of us agree that she's not miraculously cured when she says "I'm here." The ending's as uncertain as Joe and Cynthia's future.

(Eileen) It's plausible that Cynthia (rather, Maura) purposely faked Elizabeth in order to hide out from Dino, Desi and Billy ... and even Joe. But why? She was quite well hidden from Dino and the lads in the woods, especially after three months - the bad guys weren't closing in on her. Why hide from Joe; IMO, Cynthia loved him (the painting and proposal scenes convinced me). And why fake Elizabeth with her father - he was aware of her other personas and wouldn't have betrayed her. (Eileen) He meets Joe in his professional capacity and appropriately advises him that he can't divulge any details of his patient's history even though Joe's her husband ... Less than a minute later he "does a 180," abandons all professional ethics and readily breaches confidentiality to spill the gory details. However, Dr. B. as Cynthia's father and, most likely, guardian, could divulge Cynthia's history. He decided the only chance he had of ridding himself of Joe was to scare him off. That film would have scared most guys, but Joe was a prince, after all. BTW, the actor playing Dr. B did a terrific job in his final scene with Joe - most believable and poignant. My favourite non-Colin moment in FF. A question: How did Joe find out where Dr. Beaumont lived? (Eileen) I don't think this movie was striving for clinical accuracy. Don't think the W/D ever remotely imagined us (or anyone) doing a film discussion (dissection?) on FF! (Heide) Who are all these people at the wedding? (Eileen) Thirsty park visitors? Shoppers from the convenience store? How about Joe's Forestry Service colleagues? He would have hardly been out there in the woods all by himself. (Eileen) I did see the *sob* bald spot, though. DB's hair looked thin in the rain scenes in MOTM and one scene in FP, but always where his hair is parted. FF was made 10 years ago; is CF balder now (asked to those of you who saw him in 3DOR)? Seems that he would be pretty bald by now if he were noticeably thiining a decade ago. Maybe his hair (quality or quantity) is of a type which when wet or parted shows a lot of scalp. Ok, OK, I am in denial, too...but his thinness doesn't seem to have increased from FF (1989 ?) to FP (1996).

I was in denial too, Lynda, until the Donmar. But even then it's quite easy to disguise with the amount of hair he does have on that lovely head. Let's just make sure he always carries an umbrella.

(lynda) the actor playing Dr. B did a terrific job in his final scene with Joe - most believable and poignant. My favourite non-Colin moment in FF. I agree with you, Lynda. After Colin, I thought he was the most convincing in his role. **** Re: The mummy scene at the Waste Gallery...how's about: Joe is so upset over the recent events..which are progressively getting worse...that when he looks at the mummy encased in gauze he seems to see the mummy as the current situation that he's in...thus he sees his face on the mummy. Watch the expression on Joe's face when he glances at the mummy... Too big a stretch??? **** Anybody who went to the Donmar see the same washing of the face when he gets upset ? Ned getting insulted by Theo.....Joe after finding the letter from Cynthia.... ***** Dumb-Dumb lines... along with .."Where do you buy your shoes'? "Are you English"? Andrea to Elijah after the apt. gets trashed..."Do you have insurance"? Dino: "We're getting side-tracked here..". ***** Joe to Elijah..."What's my type"? Feeling insulted...cute look. Elijah.."Thought you'd go for a wholesome mouse"...Boy, was he wrong!!

Ok- saw FF for the first time yesterday. First impression: He is SO FREAKEN CUTE!!!! Is our darling, darling boy not the most GORGEOUS thing in the world? Heavy drooling ensued, I can assure you! ....*drip, drip* Second impression: (more of the same) :) That butt in those jeans! That body on white sheets! And the dimples!!! *attempting to regulate breathing...* Third impression: what an odd movie. Were those 'hoodlums' supposed to be the comic relief? What in God's name where they wearing? I seem to remember somebody mentioning their resemblence to Lenny and Squigy, and I must whole heartly concure! :) Joe Prince: very noble, stubborn, and likeable (need I mention to cute for words?) Elijah: nice friend, but obvious woman/paper bag issues. :) idiot blond from NY: an idiot blond from NY Cynthia(and crew): lost count of how many personalitis there were. none of them held my interest. remember Cynthia most clearly because that's what Joe called her during the bedroom flashback scenes... and we all know what held my attention during those scenes! Dino/Lenny & Squiggy wanna bes/redheaded chick with the bad dye job: were we really supposed to believe that these are the people running the crime scene in LA???? I know that Dino wasnt supposed to be a character from The God Father, but please! Part fastforwarded through: in the cemetary when they have a gun in Joe's mouth. Sorry, just couldnt watch that. Part I missed: the infamous patch of blue. That's supposed to be in this movie -right? Oh Well. Guess I'll just have to watch all those bedroom scenes again. :) Part I laughed out loud at: "Where do you buy your shoes?" who wrote this script?

"Where do you buy your shoes" is street talk for " Do you have any drugs?"

(SB) First impression: He is SO FREAKEN CUTE!!!! Is our darling, darling boy not the most GORGEOUS thing in the world? Heavy drooling ensued, I can assure you! ....*drip, drip* YES, YES, YES !!! CF/Joe is absolutely beautiful - for looks, the perfect man. Maybe we should send FF to Rosie - how could she then resist having ODB on her show? Other favourite looks: The closeup of Joe's eyes in the painting scene... such entrancing eyes. Joe in profile under that remarkable tree... very droolable there. The nature centre scene: all big, dark, expressive eyes and lovely mouth in a very pale face , and (Heide) This film does give us some showcasing moments for Colin's subtle expressions. The scene where Joe is in the motel watching the MM video. Not only is Joe breathtaking with his sweet battered face and his neck and chest so vulnerably exposed, but his expressions are wonderful, especially when he gives a little sigh of weary disappointment as he realises that Cynthia's words to him when they were making love came from this video and that absolutely nothing he knows of her is true. (SB) Dino/Lenny & Squiggy wanna bes/redheaded chick with the bad dye job: were we really supposed to believe that these are the people running the crime scene in LA???? Nah. Dino's a Canadian godfather - how bad can he be? Ted and Ed are strictly amateurs - how else to explain "stubby" fresh out of the box. I don't think they'd frighten any really bad guys, only an innocent like Joe. (Eileen) *Sigh* Joe is so sweet and innocent, you just want to hug him. I can think of a few other things I'd rather do with (to) Joe! But you are so right about the dimples and broad shoulders. *Sigh*

Maybe his hair (quality or quantity) is of a type which when wet or parted shows a lot of scalp. That has always been my own impression too. But after the Donmar, when we had a chance for a really close look, there's no denying that the top of his head has become an even area of gradually receding growth - though I don't see any completely bald patches as yet.

(Evelyn) Dino: "We're getting side-tracked here.." Isn't that the most perceptive line?! that when he looks at the mummy encased in gauze he seems to see the mummy as the current situation that he's in...thus he sees his face on the mummy. Good one, Evelyn! But don't go too '3DOR deep' on us... (but then again, I recall reading a thoughtful discussion about the pearls in the dreaded P. If that *cough* movie merited such fine literary analysis, so does FF!). (SBR) First impression: He is SO FREAKEN CUTE!!!! Nobody says it like you, SBR! :-) How about at the end of the bedroom scene, when Joe's lying on his back and says he supposes his paintings "hide a crack in the wall." There's a close up right before he says the line that's v. droolworthy. As you would say, SB, *drip, drip*! Murph had that snappy up at her site last year (oh, Kaaaren...;-)). "Where do you buy your shoes" is street talk for " Do you have any drugs?" Well, when all the characters proceeded to look down at the shoes (and the camera panned down to them) you'd never know he was asking about drugs. Did they think he kept them in those shoes?

(Eileen) .... But don't go too '3DOR deep' on us... I promise I won't go into analyzing FF. Though there are possibilities like.. when Cynthia looks at the tree frog in the tank that changes colors according to its environment.And how about the silk moth encased in the cocoon....!!! Naaah...let's go back to the blue line in a bed scene that I never found either. Give us explicit instructions....we need eagle-eye- Bethan here.

**How about Cynthis encased in a cocoon!?! On my very first viewing, I found it jarring during during the love scene that when she's shot from the back, she's bare all the way down, but when shot from the front or side, she has suddenly and miraculously wrapped herself up to the armpits or chin in a sheet. When she fell out of bed that way, I found it histerical...here is an actress that will only go so far for the sake of her art...but it's so obvious!! Hee hee. Also, I suspect Elijah (Aha, says Heide!!) of being familiar with Maura's work before this, and that's why he was also familiar with the nature and location of her sick arty subculture...he just didn't make the connection with Joe's Cynthia (Remember, he didn't attend the wedding). As to whether or not he's a fan.....????

If it's not this one, then I'll have to check with Murph... BTW, I'm changing the one on the main Drool page, as Heide doesn't like Joe Boy Scout. ;-p

Thank you Karen...I like the new one on the Drool masthead...how about this bed scene one later. **** This movie is getting better....(we always do this...enhance the rubbish...) Does seem like Elijah knew Maura alright... Poor Joe...he married Cynthia..but her dad says Elizabeth is the "core person". "I'm still here" ,she says at the end...but for how long?

Re: Multiple Personality Disorder (now called Dissociative Identity Disorder): http://members.aol.com/BoyyM/FAQ.html Doesn't answer everything, but a good start.

(Lynda) At the cemetery, Ted (or was it Ed) said that Maura went to Vancouver three months earlier and disappeared. Joe is definitely a fast mover! Or maybe that accounts for why his suit didn't fit well. No time for tailoring or borrowed! Thanks, Lynda, for the correction. I must pay closer attention to the dialogue and plot. ;-D (Lynda) He [Dr. Beaumont] though feeling guilty about it, he was relieved to be handing over the responsibility to someone else. But also relief that he wasn't hiding anything anymore from Joe, the lawful husband. Question: Are they legally wed?? Cynthia can't be considered "mentally competent," although you can marry under any name you want and still be married. (Lynda) the sweater he wears in the proposal scene - makes him look so big and strong and virile. Actually, I liked all Joe's clothes in FF Must take issue with the rolled up jeans. Speaking of sweaters, when Joe returns to find Cynthia missing, he's wearing another big old sweater and you get all sorts of close-ups of his neck and the moles on his neck. yummy!! (Heide) when Jenny tells him that Maura and she were lovers....You can see him thinking, "okay, I can deal with this, but please don't tell me anymore." But it changes to jealousy and curiosity because later he says to Elijah that he wants to know everything that they did. (Heide) We love to speculate on what could have caused that rather startled expression on his face at one point. Well, let's see. Cynthia stretches her arms down as she is lying on top of him... (Eileen) Don't you love it when he says "yeah--drink beer?" I've not heard him say a line like that! Yes!! And my favorite part is that he changes into an American accent for that bit of the line. (Eileen) He's professionally unethical, paternally guilt-ridden, burnt out, hopeless and ready to hand the baton Exactly. Guilt is at the core of his behavior and he's fleeing from it again. He chose to ignore the mistreatment by his schizo wife because of his career. (Eileen) In pursuit of the "succubus" theme, I would think the Joe character would be pure and naive period. The artsy nature-lover fits the bill. Why introduce this conflict? So Cynthia could draw him out and make him paint again? Good question. Yes, Joe needs to paint again, but what caused him to stop? Are we ever told? He is a nature lover and has escaped from the pollution (i.e., waste) of LA into the woods. (Evelyn) he seems to see the mummy as the current situation that he's in...thus he sees his face on the mummy. Watch the expression on Joe's face when he glances at the mummy... I think we should call this the "cocoon" shot because that's what I think it's supposed to represent. Joe is in a cocoon, safe and snug as a bug in a rug in his woods. This trip to LA is an eye-opener for him and is forcing him to come out of his cocoon. (SB) First impression: He is SO FREAKEN CUTE!!!! Is our darling, darling boy not the most GORGEOUS thing in the world? Heavy drooling ensued, I can assure you! ....*drip, drip* I take it you enjoyed the movie? ;-D (Lynda) Joe in profile under that remarkable tree... very droolable there. Oh, you're not kidding. Love that and wish someone would snappy it. (Lynda) Dino's a Canadian godfather - how bad can he be? What makes you think that? The action is supposed to take place in LA. They all travel up to somewhere in the Pacific Northwest. All we know is that Maura had to make a drop in Vancouver. (Passionata) "Where do you buy your shoes" is street talk for " Do you have any drugs?" (Eileen) Well, when all the characters proceeded to look down at the shoes (and the camera panned down to them) you'd never know he was asking about drugs. Did they think he kept them in those shoes? LOL!! They don't call them *mules* for nothing. (KJArt) Also, I suspect Elijah (Aha, says Heide!!) of being familiar with Maura's work before this, and that's why he was also familiar with the nature and location of her sick arty subculture I didn't. As I recall, Elijah said that the Waste Gallery had some of his work. The only thing was that he was very familiar with Jenny Purge's work and could name Maura Sade on sight. Great line here: "Her stuff's alright if you like repulsive shit." Other good ones : "It's nice you can still find time to broaden your vocabulary." (succubus) "So you were lovers and drug dealers. What else can you tell me about her? Well, I always wanted to meet her friends." "You know, I'm starting to like this girl" (Elijah checking out goodies) As Joe explains about the silk moth having no mouth and only being able to mate, lay eggs and die, the model says: "huh, kind of sad." "The worse it gets, the more I want her back." Brilliant bits of dialogue: Joe: Christ, not my eyes (as Jenny is holding knife) Jenny: She married you? Oh shit, I'm sorry, that must really hurt. [duh!] **** Joe: Don't you ever eat? Elijah: Not in front of other people.

(Karen) Yes!! And my favorite part is that he changes into an American accent for that bit of the line. Practising for Playmaker??? Very cute. (Heide) We love to speculate on what could have caused that rather startled expression on his face at one point. (Karen) Well, let's see. Cynthia stretches her arms down as she is lying on top of him... Yes, when he lies down, LZ reaches behind her a couple of times and laughingly says something in his ear, and CF seems to say something like," no" or "don't" and very definitely "stop, stop" seconds later. CF's performance in this scene deserved an Oscar and my kudos to The Drama Centre for his fantastic Method training! His face for those few moments, particularly while they are upright, is ... words fail me. An aside - CF makes a couple of little moans similar to that in the shower/lovemaking scene in , which convinces me that that was no double. More favourite lines: From the lovemaking scene: "What...eternal love not good enough for you?" "I don't know...just hide a crack in the wall." (sort of like CF's comments about Darcy, that he didn't do anything special, that it was all the character, the costumes, the hair-dye, etc. I believe the director of The Advocate mentioned CF's self-deprecating quality, too) Maybe Joe's lack of belief in his talent (because his art wasn't selling?) is why he quit painting. Elijah may have been less talented, but he was more confident, ambitious and self-promoting (wasn't he voted most likely to succeed?). (Lynda) Dino's a Canadian godfather - how bad can he be? (Karen) What makes you think that? The action is supposed to take place in LA. They all travel up to somewhere in the Pacific Northwest. All we know is that Maura had to make a drop in Vancouver. Ed tells Joe, "in Vancouver, she (Maura) recieves from Dino $112.000 in exchange for this aforementioned blue flight bag". Now I'm no expert on the drug smuggling business, but living near (and crossing frequently) the Cdn.- US border as I do, I should think that it would be an incredibly stupid risk (and a waste of energy) for Dino to have Maura bring drugs through customs (even we have been stopped and searched on occasion), and then take them himself back over the border. And I don't think that Canadia drug lords (I am sure we have them, though I don't know any personally) would take kindly to having an outsider distributing drugs on their turf. Maybe Maura left the drugs behind in the U.S. before reaching Vancouver. BTW, what kind of a drug dealer would hand over big money without sampling the merchandise?

(Karen) If it's not this one No, this is it! *scrolling back up there now* Isn't that the best? As Kitty and Lydia would say, aaaaahhhhhUUUUUUUmmmmmmmm! Thanks, Karen! (Evelyn) when Cynthia looks at the tree frog in the tank that changes colors according to its environment Yes, I picked that up during my second viewing (proves it couldn't have been that deep ;-)). (KJArt) she has suddenly and miraculously wrapped herself up to the armpits or chin in a sheet I noticed that and I have the FW (cropped) version. She looks somewhat giftwrapped! BTW, all you "blue sliver" missers--fear not. You're really not missing much. It's more an editing error than a peek at prime gluteus maximus. But don't let me stop you from searching again! It appears after giftwrapped/coccoon Cynthia hits the floor, says "what, did the earth move?" He replies "I think so" [I think] and joins her on the floor. As he leaves the bed, the camera pans down his back...further...further...just when you think there's going to be a butt shot, there's a glimpse of his left ip (sacroiliac region, for all you anatomy buffs) and the bright blue waistband of what Joe presumably wouldn't be wearing during sweaty love-making! (Karen) Cynthia can't be considered "mentally competent," I'm no lawyer, but I do know she'd first have to be judged incompetent in court. She wasn't a danger to herself or others, so she's not commitable from a psych standpoint either. This trip to LA is an eye-opener for him and is forcing him to come out of his cocoon You mean insofar as his search for Cynthia and exposure to her complicated past, right? How about Jenny's stunning wardrobe? Must go out and get myself a corset to wear over my clothes ASAP ;-P *scrolling back up to that snappy again*

Lovely change of scenery there on the main page. And the one up above ain't bad either. Of course the real reason I watch this film is for it's deft and witty script, it's poetic cinematography and it's classic symbolism. Kidding aside, EVELYN! you woke me up to a very important fact. Elizabeth is the "core person". Cynthia was dominant but will she be forever? So which one was Elizabeth? The girl in the wheelchair? Cynthia stretches her arms down as she is lying on top of him... I thought they were sitting up but I like it, I like it. "Where do you buy your shoes" is street talk for " Do you have any drugs?" I don't think everyone has seen this film. (KJArt) Also, I suspect Elijah of being familiar with Maura's work before this, and that's why he was also familiar with the nature and location of her sick arty subculture (Karen) I didn't. As I recall, Elijah said that the Waste Gallery had some of his work. The only thing was that he was very familiar with Jenny Purge's work and could name Maura Sade on sight. But it sounds just about the same. Both possibilities mesh. (Karen) Question: Are they legally wed?? Good. Then it will be easier for Joe to leave her assuming she doesn't wander off again first.

So which one was Elizabeth? The girl in the wheelchair? That's what Dr. Beaumont said. And after reading the FAQ on MPD that KJArt found for us, (Thank you KJ..) Cynthia could have more personalities to go...sometimes they can have 50!!! So assuming she's cured...she'll go back to the "core person"....Elizabeth. Who will not know Joe!! Poor guy could be in for quite a trip!!

(Evelyn) ...the story line wasn't all that bad... *Ahem*. I contend that the story line is terrible, it is the PREMISE that was not all that bad; it could have made an interesting study of the man who marries a MPD sufferer and gradually learns she isone and how to cope (certainly dramatic enough), but the direction the writers took with it (purely for shock value) practically made that drug sub-plot almost inevitable (or, should I say somedrug plot almost inevitable!) That's their idea of dray-ma--nothing less would do!! A shame! (Eileen)...her personalities seem to come out as if on cue... Having looked into the MPD/DID syndrome, I'd suggest that you are exactly right, Eilleen, and it often happens that way. These different "entities" were created to contain, modify, or protect against some aspect of the trauma that they suffered as a child. When the person is threatened, it would not be surprising that an angry and aggressive "protector" entity would suddenly take over. (Cynthia)..."I'm here..." Considering the expressions on her face preceding and following that statement, I would suggest it is her realization or recognition of whereshe is, and with whom she is. A dawning appreciation of what lies before her, and that she has someone to count on to see her through it. (Granted, only Cynthia would see this now, but proper therapy is meant to "introduce" the entities to each other, to the core person, and allow all to become familiar with the therapist and the people around them... nd hopefully integrate into a cooperative unit.) (Pure conjecture on my part! 8-D). Re: meeting Andrea... If Joe and Elijah attended art school together, it would be highly unlikely that either would be thrown by the sight of a naked model...

... PREMISE that was not all that bad That's what I mean't by storyline....certainly not the script (dialogue) or director... Andre Guttfreund, never heard of him. But the writer Michael Freeris went on to write The Net (JN and Sandra Bullock)which wasn't half-bad. Maybe he wrote this one while still an apprentice.

Well, the first time I saw it, that ending destroyed what little belief in the story was left...SURE, those two goons plus accomplice are just going to shrug and walk away and leave those two scott-free, knowing, as they do, all about who's doing the dealing and how much money was involved and how the traffic got through, etc. I'd always had the impression that in the drug business, Rule #1 was Leave No Witnesses! Unbelievable!! It occurred to me that the people at the wedding could well be Joe's Forest Service Co-workers, but also Instructors, etc, from Art School, and friends from the art community, which can often be tight and interdependent (Maura's ilk being left out of it). As to the reasons why Joe left that community and doing art were probably as suggested...his art wasn't selling and he had to leave it and do something else for some dependable income (I can vouch personally for that situation...!! :-D) I have a question, though. I thought Maura was the only one in the art/movie business (not to mention the lesbianism and drugs!!) So how is it that Cynthia knows the MM speech by heart??

( KJArt) Cynthia Baker was Maura's false name on the passport ..or so Jenny said. The name Baker was after MM real name.So there's a connection someplace ...but I can't figure it out.Anybody?

Sorry about the misquote, KJ..and the italics.

CF's performance in this scene deserved an Oscar and my kudos to The Drama Centre for his fantastic Method training! (Lynda) He was quoted a couple of years back in the British press saying that the part he disliked most about his work was sex scenes because he "enjoyed sex too much to pretend to do it for a living". !!! I'm very impressed by the discussion, ladies! My initial impression of FF was of how young he looked in the opening shots...not a day over nineteen :-)

(bethan) ... the part he disliked most about his work was sex scenes because he "enjoyed sex too much to pretend to do it for a living". !!! aahh...but he pretended so very well in FF! (KJart) So how is it that Cynthia knows the MM speech by heart?? (Evelyn) Cynthia Baker was Maura's false name on the passport ..or so Jenny said. The name Baker was after MM real name.So there's a connection someplace ...but I can't figure it out.Anybody? Dr. B. said that these personas were just walled-off aspects of Elizabeth's personality, so there must have been leakage from (and at least subconscious awareness of) one persona to another. IMO, Cynthia was not consciously reciting MM's speech to Joe to decieve him; the speech had just ended up being a part of Cynthia's reality. And didn't Jenny say that Maura had a thing about MM and the female vulnerability trip (hardly surprising). Hence the passport name and Cynthia's internalisation of the MM speec . BTW, the Jenny Purge and Maura (Marat?) Sade names, along with Joe Prince, Dino and Ted and Ed - the W/D's idea of wit? Loved the way Joe kept fondling Cynthia's hair - so sweet and tender. Speaking of hair, what's with Jenny's hairstyle at the end? Talk about art-trash - without the art! What a hoot! (Karen) Has anyone noticed a little Darcy deja vu moment here? Absolutely, though perhaps we should say a Joe moment in P & P. Another one - Joe asking Cynthia "Where are you from?" is similar to Darcy asking Lizzie in the Pemberley scene "Where are you staying?". I was also reminded of Adrian LeDuc in the scene when Joe asked Elijah "What's my type?".

KJart) So how is it that Cynthia knows the MM speech by heart?? (Evelyn) Cynthia Baker was Maura's false name on the passport ..or so Jenny said. The name Baker was after MM real name.So there's a connection someplace ...but I can't figure it out.Anybody? Maybe it's just that the scriptwriters didn't do their homework...:-) Something occurs to me reading Lynda's response, and so far I have not come across anything to answer it...Does each of these separate identities also already have their own separate (and different) pasts? Must each invent one? ...And we know that these entities sometimes are, or can be made to be, aware of the others, but does that mean that they just know that the others are there, or do they have a total understanding of the other's personality? From the description of typical "alters", I get the impression that such awareness is very variable in extent from one entity to another, for the others. (Are we having fun yet?! 8-D)

(Evelyn)....(we always do this...enhance the rubbish...) ROTFLOL!!! Ain't it the truth!?! I love it! (Evelyn, you always state the most profound concepts so succinctly!!) ;-)

Based on *my research* of MPD (i.e., Sybil, 3 Faces of Eve, and Primal Fear), it seems that the various personalities seem to know one another and their histories. Sometimes they are afraid of the more destructive ones and protective over the weak ones. Using Primal Fear as an example of where Edward Norton's character fooled the psychologist, his violent personality actually talked about the stutterer. Usually though, when another one takes over (as a result of a specific stimulus), the actor will phy ically let you know by some action (jerking about as if possessed or curling up into a fetal position). Lisa Z was just being subtle here. She didn't want to tip us off!! ;-D OK, let's talk about my favorite actress Lisa Blount!! What a talent! In the nine years since she played the trashy bimbo in Officer and a Gentleman, look at how her range has expanded!

(Bethan).. he "enjoyed sex too much to pretend to do it for a living". Every man picks his job,Colin. ****** I was looking at the 3 DOR program today and I see that among his film credits CF neglects to mention P and FF!! Don't blame him. ***** these entities sometimes are, or can be made to be, aware of the others, but does that mean that they just know that the others are there, or do they have a total understanding of the other's personality? I thought the FAQ on MPD said that one persona doesn't know about the other... Does the core person have any control over which persona is taking over?

...but the screenwriters haven't read the FAQ! Their knowledge of MPD is probably based on the Sally Fields' movie they remember from TV. ;-D

(Bethan)...he "enjoyed sex too much to pretend to do it for a living". Maybe he made that discovery AFTER doing Femme Fatale... (Evelyn) I thought...that one persona doesn't know about the other... ...does the core person have any control over which persona is taking over? Initially, each doesn't know about the others. The purpose of therapy is to introduce all the entities to each other and ultimately hope to integrate them into a whole. Some entities may do this on their own. Another page under the same site is somewhat enlightening. There is often a "gatekeeper" entity which does not appear itself but regulates "who" comes and goes. Also says that the core person often NEVER appears...it is buried deep and is being protected from trauma by all the others. Descript ons of the various types of "alters" (atrociously written, but fascinating) is at: http://members.aol.com/BoyyM/Alters.html (I suspect that various alters of the author write different pages of this site!) Then lighten up with this page and its ilk (use links at the end for others: http://members.aol.com/BoyyM/Hotline.html (Hee hee) :-D

There is often a "gatekeeper" entity which does not appear itself but regulates "who" comes and goes. Aw c'mon...are ya' pulling my leg?

He was quoted a couple of years back in the British press saying that the part he disliked most about his work was sex scenes because he "enjoyed sex too much to pretend to do it for a living". !!! If I didn't know enough about the way some (most?) press reports are concocted, I'd say - what a prat! But I imagine he must have been pestered for a "story", an interesting comment, something saucy... Come on, Colin, give us a good quote...! And voila. I guess it made him squirm later.

(Bethan) He was quoted a couple of years back in the British press saying that the part he disliked most about his work was sex scenes because he "enjoyed sex too much to pretend to do it for a living". !!! Hee, hee! Thanks for this, Bethan, I've never seen it before. Of course he'd retract it now that his 'rumpy pumpy' days appear to be, at least for the time being, over. (Karen) Lisa Z was just being subtle here. She didn't want to tip us off!! ;-D You mean it was her abundance of talent, right ;-P ? I read she played a girlfriend of George Clooney's character in ER a few seasons ago. I have no recollection--and I've not seen her in anything else that I can think of. Has anyone? Same for Lisa Blount. Guess a whole new crop of bimbos has come along to take her roles! (KJArt) As to the reasons why Joe left that community and doing art were probably as suggested...his art wasn't selling and he had to leave it and do something else for some dependable income (I can vouch personally for that situation...!! :-D) This is very plausible but doesn't explain why he would stop painting all together. I believe it was posted earlier that Joe lacked the confidence Elijah seemed to have, so when his work didn't sell, Joe likely figured it was because he wasn't any good. That would explain his answer to Cynthia when she pursued his promise to start painting again (end of bedroom scene): "Why?"

(Lynda) Ed tells Joe, "in Vancouver, she (Maura) receives from Dino $112.000 in exchange for this aforementioned blue flight bag". The bits of dialogue that have gone in one ear and out the other! Thanks Lynda. OK, so Dino's a Canadian godfather; however, Ted and Ed seem to be based in LA. They give Jenny a lift back after their visit to Camp Nature Center. (Shouldn't it have been Centre on the sign if Canada?) (Eileen) She wasn't a danger to herself or others What about with scissors? ;-D (Karen) This trip to LA is an eye-opener for him and is forcing him to come out of his cocoon (Eileen)You mean insofar as his search for Cynthia and exposure to her complicated past, right? I prefer to think that the cocoon image is Joe, not Cynthia. She's not hibernating in the woods or asleep, but he is. The symbolic representation of Cynthia is that portrait he did, behind the sectioned panes of glass (get it?!). Even when he comes to LA, he is still asleep. He persists in believing and telling people that "they were happy." After the Waste Gallery, where he sees himself wrapped up like that (most likely just in his mind's eye as Evelyn suggested), he is disturbed by that real zation. In his drunken speech to Elijah, he says: "She descended upon me while I was sleeping to steal my soul." He goes through phrases of change as does the silk moth (larva, pupa, adult imago). The more he learns about her, the closer he gets to the adult stage and emerging from the chrysalis. Joe begins to emerge or "wake up" literally and figuratively in the cemetery after having had the gun shot off in his mouth. (Hmm, must think about the moth with no mouth and his having the gun in his mouth.) There of course he finds the cocoon, shakes it (hee hee) and brings it back to Elijah's. Elijah even accuses Joe of "hiding in the woods" and Joe agrees. Major epiphanies here: he didn't know what he wanted; she made him feel less alone; he felt he was a superior thing, better than the world and above all the bullshit. He is facing the reality of himself now. As he reads the scholarly lit about MPD (Sybil), we see the adult moth on the nightstand. Do we see any other moths or butterflies anywhere el e or with another character? It's with Joe and it's right before he goes off to confront Dr. Beaumont. Joe is out and my Prince has arrived. (OK, maybe not as good as the pearls. ;-D ) (Lynda) "I don't know...just hide a crack in the wall."... Maybe Joe's lack of belief in his talent (because his art wasn't selling?) is why he quit painting. (KJArt) his art wasn't selling and he had to leave it and do something else for some dependable income The "hide a crack in the wall" comment is cynicism. Yes, he probably left because his art didn't sell and junk like Elijah's did. However, I don't think he ever lost faith in his talent. He withdrew because of the superior attitude that "they didn't appreciate me." Very typical. I can understand that one. Was thinking about Joe and Cynthia's nature walks in the grocery store. Isn't it interesting that she invented a game where you made up histories about people just from looking at them? ;-D

There is often a "gatekeeper" entity which does not appear itself but regulates "who" comes and goes. (Evelyn) Aw c'mon...are ya' pulling my leg? At that "Alters" link they (He?/She?/It?) discuss both the "gatekeeper" alter and the core personality plus others. To repeat: http://members.aol.com/BoyyM/Alters.html

Thanks Karen, for the Cocoon analogy....Gives me more to think about....Have to view it again. ***** KJArt...who are these people at MPD website? Anybody a health-care professional. Or are they just "Friends of MPDs". ***** OK...Who won the "shag-fight" on #113??

(Eileen)Of course he'd retract it now that his 'rumpy pumpy' days appear to be, at least for the time being, over. You mean, he doesn't enjoy it any more? At least for the time being? ;-P

think I need to kick start this topic. ;-D

--Ooooohhhoooommm! Um, yes. Leads into my personally-claimed scene, if I'm not mistaken. Wearing "my" sweater, too!! 8-) I love the close embrace, forehead to forehead that locks the rest of the world out!! Stop bemoaning, Colin!! No one can play the hopeless romantic as well as you. Wooo!

Oh my, it's the look he gets in his eye in this scene. It's so full of affection it makes me melt. Karen, you know how to pick 'em - I feel suitably jumped ;-)

Look at that dimple! OK, so he's a tad moony here. I don't have any complaints. ;-D

(Karen)Look at that dimple! I'm looking i'm drooling, girl. Oh Man! *hot flashes*

Maybe he doesn't want to do any more hopeless romantics because everytime he does, he keeps getting drool-soaked!! Yuk! 8-D

No, it's probably because one of the Fiennes bros. usually gets the girl. ;-D

Theoretically, he reads the scripts for these things BEFORE he signs them. Therefore, that sort of thing should come as no surprise. No, the problem is that he has discovered the efficacy of his incomparable moony expession on women of a certain age with Volvos and Labradors and has decided enough is enough! Being damp for too long a time results in a sore throat or worse!! Upon his doctor's advice, therefore, he must scrap the moony expressions in future. (*SOB*) :-D

Look at that dimple! Dimple and cleft in one shot! Can hardly contain myself. Even so, if we'd see a "moony" snappy of Joe next to a "smoldering" snappy of Darcy, which do you think would win? No contest for me. So if he wants to ditch "moony", that's fine with me as long as he still goes for the smoke.

I don't care what roles he does in the future...he'll never take Mr. Darc away from me (as much as he might want to.) But.... ( KJArt)....No, the problem is that he has discovered the efficacy of his incomparable moony expression on women of a certain age with Volvos and Labradors and has decided enough is enough! You might have something there....hates to build on that "hunk" reputation.

Are we still discussing FF? Or has it run its course?

Please excuse a diversion or two. I get distracted by lovely snappies. Isn't the video box cover really cheesy? Surpassed only by the Incredible Hul lurking in the background in the Playmaker box. We see Maura, legs up in the air as she puts on her fishnets with a superimposed Joe watching over her looking not moony but what...despairing? introspective? There's no decent pic of him in the photos on the back either. Unfortunately it's the cemetary scene.

(Heide) Isn't the video box cover really cheesy? Must have been designed by members of the Waste Gallery. I'll bet there were a few disappointed renters (buyers) of this video. I liked the way the camera seemed often to focus on CF's non-verbal acting in FF; at least, the W/D appreciated the specialness of CF's talent, which kind of went missing in SIL. I wonder what the Chicago reviewer would think of Joe's rigidity in the lovemaking scene?

(Heide)...if he wants to ditch "moony", that's fine with me as long as he still goes for the smoke. Didn't we all rejoice when CF finally gave up smoking? Maybe it was symbolic! (Hee hee).

Incidentally, several people appreciated it when Joe "went American" when he was talking about drinking the beer, but did anyone notice Cynthia teasing him by going Brit? -- "Who are you calling a taht?"

...Joe's rigidity in the lovemaking scene Hee hee!

(KJ) Didn't we all rejoice when CF finally gave up smoking? Maybe it was symbolic! (Hee hee). Bite your tongue, girl! Heaven forbid if we never see him smolder again. did anyone notice Cynthia teasing him by going Brit? -- "Who are you calling a taht?" Heck, I thought that was a Hahvahd Yahd routine. So if Cynthia turns back into Elizabeth is Joe going to have to get her a wheelchair?

(Eileen) Are we still discussing FF? Or has it run its course? Yes. No. ;-D (but then again, I never want these discussions to end...) (Evelyn) Thanks Karen, for the Cocoon analogy. Gives me more to think about. So what do you think? Also, what about the painting of Cynthia? Or am I just stating the obvious here? ;-D (Jana2) Oh my, it's the look he gets in his eye in this scene. It's so full of affection it makes me melt. Your comment made me think of something. Throughout that entire scene, couldn't you tell that Joe was on the brink of a proposal? He really wanted to get out of the store. "Are we done yet?" It looked like he was just waiting for a suitable spot to ask her, but when she swung her caboose down that aisle, he was a goner!! (Heide) Isn't the video box cover really cheesy? Surpassed only by the Incredible Hulk lurking in the background in the Playmaker box. Let us not forget the cover of The Advocate, with the boob-fondling mystery man. Colin's not even on it! (Heide) We see Maura, legs up in the air as she puts on her fishnets with a superimposed Joe watching over her looking not moony but what...despairing? introspective? He's psychologically analyzing the fishnets. Let's see, he's talked himself blue in the face trying to convince everyone that he loves her, she loves him and that he can make her normal. ;-D (Lynda) I wonder what the Chicago reviewer would think of Joe's rigidity in the lovemaking scene? I may not be "the" but I am "a" Chicago reviewer. ;-) One of my favorite parts of that scene (aside from that *look* and the sweat dripping off his body while in the seated/vertical position) is when he is covering her back with kisses. Ooooh wheee!! Can this guy act? I am getting major tingling sensations through the television set. (KJ) but did anyone notice Cynthia teasing him by going Brit? -- "Who are you calling a taht?" Yes, adorable. Never looked at it as reciprocal, but yes it would be. (Heide) So if Cynthia turns back into Elizabeth is Joe going to have to get her a wheelchair? Thinking of the practical again, are we? Daddy can drop it off when he visits his daughter(s). ;-p

(Heide)...Heaven forbid if we never see him smolder again. Yeh, but you gotta dye him dark first! You know how he hates coming across as "petulant" ;-) (Heide) So if Cynthia turns back into Elizabeth is Joe going to have to get her a wheelchair? (Karen) Daddy can drop it off when he visits his daughter(s). ;-p Excellent solution to a stickly problem, Karen! What worries me is what Elija's going to have to bring when she turns into Maura. (Hee hee) (Karen) Also, what about the painting of Cynthia? Or am I just stating the obvious here? ;-D The obvious what? Sorry, whatever it is it ain't that obvious....(Don't mind me, my mind wanders every now and

(Karen) Throughout that entire scene, couldn't you tell that Joe was on the brink of a proposal? He really wanted to get out of the store. "Are we done yet?" Something new to ponder. Scene looks that way to me too. He hadn't intended to propose to her in front of the orange juice. Probably had something much more romantic in mind. I must admit it played pretty romantic the way it was done. Wonder if there was an engagement ring. We never really see them as a married couple except for their wedding day. Any ring(s) visible? Anybody notice if Joe wears a wedding ring while in LA? I like to know these small details. what about the painting of Cynthia? Well let's see...she's trying to tell Joe she thinks he's a lousy painter? ;-) Or when she slips into Elizabeth/Maura or whoever she was when she fled, she doesn't recognize this girl in the picture so slashes her rival in a fit of jealousy? ;-) ;-) I'm just trying to think of something other than the obvious.

(Heide) Wonder if there was an engagement ring... Anybody notice if Joe wears a wedding ring while in LA? Cynthia left only a wedding ring with the note, so IMO, no engagement ring. Joe does wear his ring throughout the whole movie. I think the obvious is correct re the slashed painting; Cynthia hates herself. Did we ever decide which persona walked out of the cabin? I think it was Cynthia; she loved Joe too much to inflict her sickness on him. She had some awareness that she was f***ed up, because she offered to change at the end. Re the note: was it referring to Joe or to Cynthia herself? (Heide) I know our boy is a lover not a fighter but I think I could even have protected myself a bit better. I was thinking the same thing the first time I watched FF, but Joe is a gentle soul, probably never hit anyone in his life. When it comes to Hollywood films, we are so brainwashed into believing that all men (and particularly leading men) can fight off hordes single-handedly. Joe turning into Arnie would have been phony. But those two scenes with the baddies are hard to watch. Other favourite lines: Joe to Elijah "...grooming the rabbits, exercising the tree frogs." (I like the thing CF does with his fingers there - cute).. Elijah:"It's (love) an illusion to keep people reproducing. So it's a psychological hard-on." and seconds later, to Andrea, "Touche". (Karen) ...when he is covering her back with kisses. The trail of kisses is beautiful - loving, gentle, so giving, just what poor Cynthia needed.

OK this is what I meant about the picture, I posted it a few days ago: The symbolic representation of Cynthia is that portrait he did, behind the sectioned panes of glass (get it?!) Just like the father said: "she's one person who has walled off different aspects of her personality." Ironic how Joe painted her precisely how the father described her. (Heide) Any ring(s) visible? Lynda is quite right on the ring thing. Initially I thought we had storyline problem here because she would have shown up at home with a wedding ring and Daddy might see it and wonder. Then, Joe keeps it with the wedding pictures and you see Cynthia fingering it when Joe goes to talk to Daddy. (Lynda) Did we ever decide which persona walked out of the cabin? Good question!! My initial feelings would be Elizabeth, but she prefers not to walk and pretend she is paralyzed. :( Re the note: was it referring to Joe or to Cynthia herself? I thought she was referring to Joe. Just as her father mentioned later that her other personalities would not know him if he walked into a room.

Still thinking about the painting of Cynthia... (Karen)The symbolic representation of Cynthia is that portrait he did, behind the sectioned panes of glass (get it?!) Just like the father said: "she's one person who has walled off different aspects of her personality." Ironic how Joe painted her precisely how the father described her. But Joe didn't know about her different personalities when he was painting the picture. Dr. Beaumont told him later. Do you think the different panes of glass somehow signify a perception he had about her unknown and disturbed background,("people always wanted pieces of me..." which later materialized into multiple personalities.Remember he asked her to close the window so he could continue painting.

(Evelyn) But Joe didn't know about her different personalities when he was painting the picture. Dr. Beaumont told him later. Right, but sometime artists see things differently about a person. Why else would he have her pose behind a window? Without knowing it, he did paint her likeness? A splintered personality. Sections of a person hidden behind something.

Karen, you amaze me. You can find symbolism in a Coke can but nine times out of ten you're dead on. I like your idea of the sectioned or fractured personalities of Cynthia. Joe didn't know it but we are being hit on the head with it though it takes a few knocks for me to see it. (Evelyn) the different panes of glass somehow signify a perception he had about her unknown and disturbed background,("people always wanted pieces of me..." This is perfectly plausible too. I like the "pieces"/panes connection. And he had her behind a window because he could never really touch her, never really know her. HAH!!! We could go on and on. (Lynda) Cynthia left only a wedding ring with the note, so IMO, no engagement ring Missed it or forgot it. I'm going to you next time for the details, Lynda. Like your quote selection. I like a lot of Elijah's dialogue and again, must reiterate my fondness for the buddy relationship in this film.

I've re-watched the opening wedding scene several times....there is an older couple on the left. After the ceremony Joe shakes hand with the man and kisses the lady in a perfunctory manner giving the impression they are parents of the bride.Had she been his mum who came over from UK he would have kissed and hugged her more warmly, IMO. Still thinking of that picture....if Joe suspected she had a splintered personality by painting her in that manner...why was he so surprised when she left him. And why did he look so shocked when Dr. Beaumont gave credence to his suspicions.("Aha...I thought so" would have been more like it)

(Heide) And he had her behind a window because he could never really touch her, never really know her. HAH!!! We could go on and on. Go on!! And Evelyn's comment about how he closed the window on her? (Evelyn) if Joe suspected she had a splintered personality by painting her in that manner No, it wasn't a conscious thing for him. (KJ, help me-explain how and what an artist sees) I think he saw her and for some reason felt that painting her behind that sectioned glass window was right. Maybe he felt deep down that she was hiding behind something. He didn't say anything. Remember when he was in the pool with Elijah and realized that he knew nothing of her background. But his feelings of not knowing her and that she was a mystery to him came through in that portrait.

All this symbolism - very interesting. So why do we think this is a poor film, instead of a decent movie with some iffy bits in it? Speaking of symbolism, I like the juxtaposition of Maura's corpse-like eyes (and using the word corpse in the dialogue at that moment) with Joe's natural, alive ones; the juxtaposition of the ugly and degraded art of the Waste Gallery and the beauty and love in Joe's painting of Cynthia. Destruction vs. Creation. Obvious, I guess, but effective.

(Karen) Throughout that entire scene, couldn't you tell that Joe was on the brink of a proposal? Oh yeah. At first I thought he had another motive, since she got him all hot and bothered with that "taht" kiss (agree she was teasing him about his accent). (Heide) And he had her behind a window because he could never really touch her, never really know her. I had the same initial thoughts about the window. But as you say, Karen's right on target with her interpretation. It makes sense insofar as intended symbolism (along with the coccoon business). I agree with Evelyn, Joe doesn't realize something's not right with her until he's forced to, during his search. It also took me a while to make the Wagner connection--why Cynthia holds her hands over her ears and claims the music gives her a headache. Repressed memories of Maura with the fork! I watched (most of) FF again last week and have to disagree, Karen, with your interpretation of why Joe stopped painting. IMO he doesn't think he's good enough, not the reverse. It comes down to his reaction when Cynthia asks him to paint again. The way he responds "why?" doesn't convince me he's become jaded. If he were, perhaps he would have said "why bother?" instead. I also think of Joe as essentially naive, sweet (a natural target for all you succubi out there;-)) and therefore can't make him cyn cal at the same time. I also realized what had thrown me off about this movie. I somehow thought Cynthia was really Maura faking Cynthia (follow?) to hide from Dino et al. It was the "I never had a home" Marilyn Monroe speech that made me think along these lines (I assumed she purposely lied to him about her past, using a story she was familiar with), along with the succubus theme (evil woman steals soul of innocent man). Guess I missed the point of seeing all the individual personalities displayed on Dr. Beaumont's video. (Heide) Any ring(s) visible? (Karen) Lynda is quite right on the ring thing. Yes, she is. I was looking carefully because in the end, when she's Elizabeth, there is a ring on her finger as she opens the envelope with the wedding pictures (thought it was a continuity problem). The ring's on her middle finger, though. (Lynda) Did we ever decide which persona walked out of the cabin? (Karen)Good question!! My initial feelings would be Elizabeth, but she prefers not to walk and pretend she is paralyzed And it was a long walk (hitch, most likely, unless the bus route goes through the woods--or better yet, "taxi!") back to LA. (Lynda) I think it was Cynthia; she loved Joe too much to inflict her sickness on him. One would think she could bail out before the wedding, then. But she's a superego personality. Maybe that solution never occurred to her. (Lynda) So why do we think this is a poor film, instead of a decent movie with some iffy bits in it I see your point but still think the movie could have been a whole lot better if they skipped the iffy bits and unneccessary subplots. But in the immortal words of Paul Ashworth, "we all have our reasons for loving things the way we do..."

(Eileen)It also took me a while to make the Wagner connection--why Cynthia holds her hands over her ears and claims the music gives her a headache. Repressed memories of Maura with the fork! The Wagner theme from the boom-box while he is painting is the same background music from Jenny Purge's film: "Rite of Passage".It brings on her headache.But when Elijah and Joe are watching the film...the music brings back to Joe the recollections of the painting event. ***** (Karen)....Re: the Painting...But his feelings of not knowing her and that she was a mystery to him came through in that portrait I'll buy that...Karen. When artists paint they see things differently...because a different part of their brain is activitated...the emotional part, not just the visual part which everyone uses when they see an object/person. Soooo Joe in employing his emotional brain was painting her behind a window didn't know her at all because those were his subliminal feelings. Did I get it right? **** I think this is a lousy film because the stupid sub-plot and supporting actors are so poor. IMO except for Dr. Beaumont...none of them are believable. ***** Let's get back to more impt. things like the verical shagging scene...:-)

(Evelyn) Did I get it right? No right or wrong answers here. (although Eileen is all wet about what caused Joe to stop painting!!) But for extra credit... ;-p Didn't even notice the music being the same. But it make sense. Am I going to have to watch this again? Oh noooooooooooooooo!!!! (Evelyn) Let's get back to more impt. things like the verical shagging scene...:-) I continue to replay in my imagination (entire brain working diligently) the back kissing part.

(Lynda) So why do we think this is a poor film, instead of a decent movie with some iffy bits in it? Evelyn has coined the perfect answer for this one! ;-D It went something along these lines: "By the time we finish with this, people will wonder why it didn't win an Academy Award!"

(evelyn) When artists paint they see things differently...because a different part of their brain is activitated...the emotional part, not just the visual part which everyone uses when they see an object/person For the Esoteric among you: http://www.physiol.ox.ac.uk/~rcm/pem/index.htm

(Eileen)...why Joe stopped painting. IMO he doesn't think he's good enough, not the reverse. It comes down to his reaction when Cynthia asks him to paint again. Very perceptive of you , Eileen. I tend to agree. He seemed entirely surprised at her urging him to start again, and looked very doubtful when she told him he was good. (Karen) (KJ, help me-explain how and what an artist sees) Can't...No two artists see things in quite the same way. Gives a lot of room for for debate.... (Lynda) Did we ever decide which persona walked out of the cabin? (Lynda) I think it was Cynthia; she loved Joe too much to inflict her sickness on him. Can't agree here...I doubt the conscious Cynthia "believed in" the others quite yet. And Cynthia wouldn't react violently by cutting up the picture. I'm inclined to think it was Maura (who WAS aware of Elizabeth and only had contempt for her) or a persona much like her. Remember, there was one entity in the video that was nameless? And I'm sure that we haven't been introduced to the full panoply...it could have been another one we aren't aware of (probably one who can hike well...) ;-D None of them w uld know Joe either...

(KJArt) I'm inclined to think it was Maura Elizabeth can't walk and Baby can't get out of the fetal position. This leaves Cynthia and Maura, or, as you pointed out it could have been another one we aren't aware of (probably one who can hike well...). IMO Maura wouldn't have taken the time to leave a note and would've hocked the ring for cigarettes :-P I vote for the unknown hiker. But more than likely it's just another loophole in the plot.

(Eileen) Re: "I don't know who you are..." note Maura wouldn't have taken the time to leave a note and would've hocked the ring for cigarettes ".. True, but it's only Maura of the three we know that would have slashed the painting. ***** Re: The cocoon. Elijah says to Joe "Go home. Go to bed. Go hide. It's what you're good at.." Agree that the moth is Joe..."I was hiding..." (in denial?)."She made me feel less alone". I can't give up". In the next scene you see Joe calling Dr. B. back and the camera goes to the moth which is emerging from the cocoon. A turn in the life of Joe. The cemetery ordeal IMO was the turning point!! Agree with Karen on this one. ***** A Darcy moment: As he walks about the trashed apt. " Sorry, Elijah...I never should have gotten you involved in this one"...Same determined tone of voice as when he told Mr. Gardiner..."It was my fault.....I must insist on this..I will not give way.." ****** I like Elijah's selection of hats!!

(Eileen)...Maura wouldn't have taken the time to leave a note and would've hocked the ring for cigarettes ".. I vote for the unknown hiker. But more than likely it's just another loophole in the plot. Excellent analysis all the way ...I agree ... especially the part about the loophole. But then that only leaves an huge opening for our own invention ... and we are better at that, I believe, than at the analysis!!! ;-)

OT: who was it that "just" saw ATA a few days ago? Coz I just did! I unexpectedly ran into it at Blockbusters (you wouldn't believe the name they gave it in portuguese: "Friends and rivals"!), brought it home and saw it immediately. CF looks gorgeous! Tall and thin, his wonderful walk, the expressive face... Only less than perfect thing is his voice... somewhat flat, like in 3DoR. And of course the fact that he is seldom on screen, as you all have said.

(Lynda) Joe is a gentle soul, probably never hit anyone in his life. When it comes to Hollywood films, we are so brainwashed into believing that all men (and particularly leading men) can fight off hordes single-handedly. Actually, I thought Joe's punch was one of Colin's better ones. He really puts his arm into it, not like The Advocate!! (a girlie swing if I've ever seen one) Of course, overlooking baddie with shovel as potentially dangerous we could chalk up to lack of sleep, hasn't been to bathroom yet, etc. (Lynda) Joe turning into Arnie would have been phony. Agreed. Would take away from the realism of rest of movie. ;-D (Lynda) I like the juxtaposition of Maura's corpse-like eyes...with Joe's natural, alive ones Excellent observation on the symbolism. Hadn't noticed that before. Lots in this movie. Whenever I see the closeup of Maura's eyes on that poster, they remind me of Theda Bara. (Eileen) IMO he doesn't think he's good enough, not the reverse. At Elijah's he makes the offhand comment about Elijah's work still selling like hotcakes. There's a note of astonishment/disbelief in his voice. Seems to me (promise I won't belabor the point) that both he and Elijah know that Joe is the more talented of the two. The fact that Joe's work failed to sell could only be reconciled in my mind by an attitude of "they don't understand my work or appreciate it." Remember, he did confess (after the eye-opening cemetery scene) that he tended to think of himself as a superior human being and didn't need anyone. I'm done. We can disagree amicably on this point. (Eileen) But more than likely it's just another loophole in the plot. Speaking of which, how long would it take to drive from Vancouver (if that's where it is set) to LA? Anybody know? Long enough for the black eye to fade? Another: Joe doesn't seem to think anything so unusual about a woman so well-dressed in the woods at the beginning - and it didn't look like a Maura outfit to me. A fav scene: At the morgue, the camera pans up on Joe, who is wearing tight jeans, t-shirt and open shirt. Look carefully at the t-shirt. His chest appears to be stuck out and you can make out his pecs. Nice definition! ;-D This would explain how Joe is so easily able to lift Elizabeth out of her wheelchair in one swooosh motion!! Best prop: Elijah's water squirter

Gi, it was Elena who just saw ATA. Also, I'd say Colin's on screen maybe 75% of the time. He just doesn't say much. ;-D

(Gi) Tall and thin, his wonderful walk, the expressive face... Ah, Gi! You saw it too? Yes, I bumped into it last week. Great to hear from someone to whom ATA is still fresh stuff, I�m afraid these other gals have seen it already too many times to remember the first and the best drooly impulses that Jess inspired... ;-)

ATA. Also, I'd say Colin's on screen maybe 75% of the time. He just doesn't say much. ;-D A good-looking -potted- palm!!! I really think we should do ATA next...since so many have seen it recently. ***** Question on FF.... Who got the money at the end? Dino tasted the cocaine, was the money in the blue flight bag he throws to Ed? If so why is Ed telling Jenny that he's out $50,000.?Cynthia told Joe she only had $15. in her purse. **** It's a long way from LA to Vancouver..but black eyes last about a week.