Not bad, ladies, a very interesting discussion. I would wish you could get Greenberg to join, or at least explain himself. I'm still in the dark as to the essence of the play, but then the discussion still continues. :-) From the very beginning when I read the first pages of the play: the talking about architecture and liquid light, and about Walker just walking away for a year, and him being so isolated in the big city and elsewhere, and Ned and Lina barely understanding each other....... I can't help but imagine very intensely Edward Hoppers pictures. I did a search for Hopper pics, and it is not just one picture, but the whole atmosphere. Buildings in changing "liquid" light, and people alone or together, but always st angely unconnected, isolated. That would be one of the questions I would ask Greenberg: if he had Hopper in mind when he wrote 3DOR. http://firth.com/donmar/morn_sun_sm.jpg http://firth.com/donmar/room_sea_small.jpg http://firth.com/donmar/chair_car_sm.jpg And finally, 6 weeks too late, I can of a good question to ask CF: What HE thinks the play is about! ;-). Too late! And I wouldn't get it out anyway.

Ok, sorry, I have violated the golden rule: Never try to post a link when you are awfully tired......

Thanks Renate! Visuals are always helpful. Such angst and desolation. Resnais's film comes to mind (scripted by Alain Robbe-Grillet), "L'�nn� Derni�re � Marienbas." I wonder if Greenberg has seen it.

Karen; I have no intention of abandoning such a promising project. I suppose I must confess that: Since we can no longer address the ultimate meaning of the entire piece.. WAS at least a partial "Walker"...Its just that you did such an impressive job in your summing-up of where Greenberg was going, it seemed like the last word on the subject...;-) You MUST publish, by all means!! You know, I really loved W's description of trying to get a hamburger, too. ...but it didn't work out.... hee,hee ;-) That response being, to him "really annihilating...I had to leave,"just breaks me up every I read it!! (Evelyn) Hardly cool. i.e. tripping on purpose. I noticed several times when he did it in Valmont, just to give the impression that he was something of a clutz. Remember when he dove off the back of the boat to save his man, but tripped on the edge for a most ungraceful entry into the water?...:-) On purpose, I say!! (Heide) ...please, please, please..." Instant connection with (drool) Paul! I just hope CF didn't deliver the line in the same tone, though...(not being there, I wouldn't know). And I didn't catch that play-within-a-play reference at all! (I think I needed to see that one!) Thanks! ;-)

--Moon-- Our minds must work alike...I was just thinking this afternoon about how to find out where Richard Greenberg could be reached. It was for the mere purpose of a fan letter, but your idea is better! **Thanks for the Hoppers, Renate!**

Two nits I'd like picked-at: 1) According to Nan, her husband, Harry, "always says the right thing..." When Pip appeared to take slight umbrage at this (as implying he didn't), Nan said, He's...what you would be if I hadn't met you until I was 25." What do you think she meant by this? that he'd literally would be a different sort of person, or that he would be different in her eyes, or what?? 2) When Nan asked Walker whether he was, in fact, in love with Pip, and he answered: Oh, who knows? You know he's such a dunce, I envied him. I think he was being quite honest about the envy, but what did he mean, do you think? And an extra that has been haunting me for several days; When all is said and done, how do you think Ned REALLY felt about his son Walker?

Found this synopsis on the web for a biography written recently about Sir Joshua Reynolds. According to this, Greenberg's tongue is firmly in cheek again: "That Sir Joshua Reynolds (1723-1792) became the most fashionable painter of his time was not simply due to his artistic gifts or good fortune. The art of pleasing, Richard Wendorf contends, was as much a part of Reynolds's success-- in his life and in his work--as the art of painting." "At the heart of Wendorf's text is an investigation of how Reynolds shaped his own persona in order to accommodate others and guarantee his own continued professional advancement. The key word, and one which his contemporaries used in describing him, is 'complaisance'...Reynolds could, when he wished, charm the birds from the trees." http://www.hup.harvard.edu/S98Books/S98Catalog/sir_joshua_reynolds.html Will have to add this to my Cliff Notes! Any other addition? This is an evolving piece... ;-)

Just added to the Cliff Notes, Karen, good idea. I also think we should discuss Walker's sexuality as KJArt pointed out, it was a queer remark by Nan. (OK, pun intended).

Earlier, Walker implied the possobility that Ned and Theo might have been lovers, (because of the single mattress), to which Nan replied sarcastically: "Not everyone is as sexually fluent as you, Walker--our loss, perhaps, but the case;..."

FYI, there are pictures of the 3DOR set from the Donmar at Murph's site, including the cast taking their bows. Go to it: http://www.geocities.com/~murphyat65/daysrain.html

(Evelyn) Building the house with moments... (KJArt) But didn't Ned earlier see with "astonishing clarity" that "the whole thing will blow up in our faces..." His envisionment of collapse, poverty, abandonment--this was not his (or Lina's) immediate fate. So how can he see "every moment" of the house? I do see the house as Ned; it being built on moments of his life, although not necessarily his future. (He would need a "crystal ball.") Interesting that Ned does see his life blowing up, but maybe it too is not entirely clear. He doesn't foresee that it will be personal and not professional destruction. His losses are of a more personal nature, i.e., relationships (Lina, Theo and his children). These did occur shortly thereafter. Theo died six years later and Lina must have well on her way to... Nothing is "crystal" clear in this play. Can't be. ;-) (Moon) At some point, we should invite Greenberg to join us. He should receive the whole discussion and then fill in the blanks (if we will leave any;-) I would love to have the blanks filled in; these things nag at me and I can't let them go. Like: Why is there not a poem named Randolph? ;-) (Moon) How difficult could it be to reach him? Karen? Is it still running in Chicago? Perhaps the manager there can help with a contact in NY (I assume he leaves in NY). No, it's not running here, but I believe it is supposed to open in Boston or has??? Greenberg must have a literary agent. The publisher would know. (Renate) I can't help but imagine very intensely Edward Hoppers pictures...Buildings in changing "liquid" light, and people alone or together, but always strangely unconnected, isolated. Excellent choice of pictures, Renate, but where is "Nighthawks"? Walker stopped there for a cup of coffee. ;-) Cities are usually portrayed as isolating. Where better to get lost (or to hide, Eileen) than in a big city? (KJArt) I noticed several times when he did it in Valmont, just to give the impression that he was something of a clutz...On purpose, I say!! Of course, it was on purpose. Cecile did some tripping as well. I remember Kirsten listed all the tripping scenes in Valmont in our film discussion (check the archive on firth.com). ODB is no klutz! :-) (Heide) ...please, please, please... (KJArt) I just hope CF didn't deliver the line in the same tone, though Actually yes (correct me if I'm wrong, ladies). Differences: (1) wasn't as loud and (2) head was not stuck out of a window. Who among the Firth lovers in the audience did not experience a little tingle when they heard that? (KJArt) Harry, "always says the right thing..." When Pip appeared to take slight umbrage at this...Nan said, He's...what you would be if I hadn't met you until I was 25." What do you think she meant by this? that he'd literally would be a different sort of person, or that he would be different in her eyes, or what?? The latter I think. Nan must be admitting that she couldn't commit to anything or anybody before that age or that's when she finally got her act together. (Criticism coming) Greenberg appears to be another male author who relegates women to lesser roles and simply cannot draw them as equally interesting characters. Nan is a case in point. She is so incompletely drawn that I wonder if any actress can play that role well and not fade into the scenery? (btw, EMcG has not been let off the hook.) (KJArt ) "Oh, who knows? You know he's such a dunce, I envied him." I think he was being quite honest about the envy, but what did he mean, do you think? Walker was probably envious of Pip being normal and happy. Then, Pip appears to have had a fairly normal mother and Walker could have been envious of that. (KJArt) When all is said and done, how do you think Ned REALLY felt about his son Walker? He loved him and gave him the wherewithal to fulfil his own dreams. Shame that Ned couldn't see how unhappy that made Walker. ****** Still have a few more points (from previous posts) to cover, but does anyone remember how Colin (Ned) and EMcG (Lina) used their hands to describe the Guilt and Genius thing? I can remember the Chicago one very distinctly and remember thinking it worked better, but now can't imagine what was done in London. Other London Ladies...

(Renate) I can't help but imagine very intensely Edward Hoppers pictures. I did a search for Hopper pics Did you, Renate? He is one of my favourite painters of this century! You must tell me more about your work on him. (Renate)...the whole atmosphere. Buildings in changing "liquid" light, and people alone or together, but always strangely unconnected, isolated. Yes, very anguishing. What a marvelous insight! (KJArt)...He's...what you would be if I hadn't met you until I was 25." What do you think she meant by this? that he'd literally would be a different sort of person, or that he would be different in her eyes, or what?? I think she means that Pip has turned out to be the same kind of person as her husband, but that she and Pip had had their chance at 18, (when either he wasn't like that yet or she hadn't appreciated him as such at that age); if they had met at 25, they might have a relashionship even now. (KJArt)When Nan asked Walker whether he was, in fact, in love with Pip, and he answered: Oh, who knows? You know he's such a dunce, I envied him. I think he was being quite honest about the envy, but what did he mean, do you think? Probably that he admired Pip in a way, and that now he cannot tell whether at the time it was love or the admiration. (KJArt) When all is said and done, how do you think Ned REALLY felt about his son Walker? I've wondered about that too. We can only speculate. I think he probably admired his son, who had become what *he* would have liked to be. But he couldn't get close, and I don't think he really tried. He must have thought that Walker was "strong" and didn't need an intimacy that didn't come naturally between them. But we know Walker really wasn't that way, and that his father's remoteness caused him pain.

(KJArt) I noticed several times when he did it in Valmont, just to give the impression that he was something of a clutz...On purpose, I say!! (Karen)Of course, it was on purpose. Of course it was! Had it been an accident, they would have done another take. (Karen)The latter I think. Nan must be admitting that she couldn't commit to anything or anybody before that age or that's when she finally got her act together. We seem to agree on this point, then.

(KJArt) When all is said and done, how do you think Ned REALLY felt about his son Walker? ) He probably ignored him...didn't know how to relate to him as a child. I don't think he hated his son...but Walker must have grown up thinking so. Pain all over the place . What makes anyone think that Ned admired Walker? The guy was never around...was off in Boston or Peru.....was a flaneur.

Help!! My e-mail seems to be blocked. I think the account got overloaded wityh K's. They tell me I should delete some messages to commence use (I agree), but since access is being blocked, I can't get in to delete anything!! Anybody have any suggestions?

Weren't there any warnings that your mailbox was approaching its limit? That happened to me after the play, when all those pictures were being emailed around. Wait for a while. It might be a problem at their end. Happens too often with Hotmail (Wednesday being a recent example when my messages all disappeared for hours and when they returned had multiplied and were not where they should be.) Anyway, if the problem persists. Open up a new account at Yahoo and try to communicate with the tech people through it.

Karen, can you send email to anyone there at Yahoo who could help you? I do not use it and I think I am the only one awake now, but it might be worth a try to go into Yahoo and click on email like you were going to sign up for some. I have been very good about not clogging you up with postings. Will hunt around tosee what I can find out

Even my private ISP jams up as it did this morning. My son was sending lots of digital photos he took on a recent trip. I ended up with 2 or 3 of most of them, and 5 of one! It took forever to unjam it! But it does eventually! I have never heard of your using up all the space without their telling you! Try again tomorrow, and use The Karen's wise advice about opening up another Email box and writing from there to the people at Yahoo. TK, you are not in any way related to The Donald =P

(Karen), Nothing is "crystal" clear in this play. Can't be. ;-) No, it's all liquid light. Seeing through prisms. The oldest examples of this use in are churches. When the sun shines through the many colored glasses, prisms reflect all over, the feeling is quite surreal and beautiful. You swim in the light. My DH is back, more later.

(Evelyn) Does the house symbolize Ned's life? Made up of events beyond his control? (Karen) I am thoroughly convinced that Greenberg is making a statement about the will of the individual and shaping one's destiny. He comes out firmly on the side of destiny (and one's genetic makeup). Poor Theo tries to make himself into something noteworthy and what happens? He dies at a very young age. Everybody else just goes with the flow and lets life happen to them. This is from a couple of days ago but I wanted to comment before more time goes by. I agree with your conclusion, Karen. That's one of the statements. Another more concrete theme is legacy, or how family dysfunction perpetuates itself from one generation to the next. One of the obvious conclusions one makes at the end of the play is how Walker completely misunderstood his father: WALKER: Reconstruct along with me a moment. You are this young man. Ambitious, of course-- what architect isn't ambitious? And it's that moment when you're so bursting with feeling that people aren't enough, your art isn't enough, you need something else, some other way to let out everything that's in you. You buy this notebook, this volume into which you can pour your most secret, your deepest and illicit passions. You bring it home, commence--the first sacred jottings-the feelings you couldn't contain: "April 3rd to April Sth: Three days of rain." A weather report. A fucking weather report! (Beat. He quiets down) You know, the thing is with people who never talk, the thing is you always suppose they're harboring some enormous secret. But, just possibly, the secret is, they have absolutely nothing to say. And we come to know the opposite to be true in Act II (underscored by the fact that it's the last act even though chronologically it should have been the first, but that would have ruined the effect). What do you think? The subject ties into the Walker/Ned relationship discussion. How about Lina/Nan? LINA: Well...one child, at least. One beautiful little girl. Someone precious I can drink with.

Thanks for the help--and sympathy. I went down to the community college computer labs and they got me in fine--no overload--probably just the loval ISP for the Library (the CC has no ISP to foul up!!!) Anyway, thanks.

(Evelyn)...Pain all over the place. Agreed...but Ned must have been aware that Walker was interested enough in architecture to study it. (Indeed, I think that's why Nan erupted with, "It was wicked.".) Did she believe that denying Walker the house was done out of spite? Was it? Did Ned feel neglected and resent it? Or was he contentedly anti-social? Did he avoid contact with the grandchildren, too? (Poor Nan!) (Gi)...Pip has turned out to be the same kind of person as her husband,... "He [is]...what you would be" doesn't seem to me to be an equivalancy...Although I suppose you could extend that to an understood: "He [is][to me?]...what you would be [to me?]" Not blatantly apparent, alas!

(KJart)Did Ned feel neglected and resent it? Or was he contentedly anti-social? Did he avoid contactwith the grandchildren, too? (Glad you got your email problems settled....) Pip thinks that Ned was neglected....p.264..."He was a pretty lonely man the last few years. I don't think he was doing that much work on his own....partners buzzing around him...twiddling his thumbs. I thought it was my responsibility. You were always flittering off ...." Ned,however, was anti-social...though he did make cities of Tinker Toys for the children...while "he sat in a Modern Chair ...flipping silently through an art book" Walker never had a chance to be normal....by genetic cause or environment.

Taking what some of you are saying and just thinking aloud with no specific purpose in mind.... Does Ned appear to be anti-social as a young man? I mean any more so than a man who is shy and has the added burden of stuttering? To me he appears a someone on the edge looking in but not daring to join though he'd like to. I think he admires Theo's gregariousness...considers him a more valued member of the team. Do you think he became even more withdrawn as he grew older (secluding himself inside his shell as his wife grew madder) so the Ned his children knew was not the same Ned we see in Act 2? Wo ld they have had more sympathy for that younger Ned or would they have misunderstood him too? Ned's journal entries give away nothing. Why can't he use this to speak what he can't say out loud? (Because then Greenberg wouldn't have a play.) You have to admit, his entries are weird. What does this say of Ned's state of mind? I'd suppose it's that he can't give outlet to his emotions or else they'll overwhelm him as we see when Theo is baiting him and he's shaking and gasping for air. He's conditioned to repressing them when at all possible.

(Heide)Do you think he became even more withdrawn as he grew older (secluding himself inside his shell as his wife grew madder) so the Ned his children knew was not the same Ned we see in Act 2? Probably right. (Heide)Ned's journal entries give away nothing. Why can't he use this to speak what he can't say out loud? You have to admit, his entries are weird. Maybe he's too shy or private to elaborate. Journals (and diaries...) can be found and read. I use photography sometimes the way Ned used his journal entries, as topics to remind me of events, not as complete reposts of these.

( Heide)...You have to admit, his entries are weird. Ned was a man of few words....but stutterers measure their words carefully...(doesn't he say that somewhere?...he can't waste words). Nothing much has been said about Ned's stuttering. Surely, as a child he must have suffered at the hands of his peers. NED: ( to Theo) " I l-left home to get away from people who have no.....people who have no g-grace, people who are randomly cruel and y-you are....." He never elaborates who these people are...parents? friends? But they caused that pain Stuttering is a neurological disorder....why did Greenberg create a character that stuttered?

(Karen), Nothing is "crystal" clear in this play. Can't be. ;-) (Moon), No, it's all liquid light. Seeing through prisms. The oldest examples of this use in are churches. When the sun shines through the many colored glasses, prisms reflect all over, the feeling is quite surreal and beautiful. You swim in the light. The house does reflect upon the characters, in this liquid light you either sink or swim. Ned, Nan, Pip and Walker swim, they survive. Lina and Theo sink. The house is "the best one for living in..." as Nan says. The quality that it does not capture is the "frozen music."

(Evelyn), Ned,however, was anti-social...though he did make cities of Tinker Toys for the children...while "he sat in a Modern Chair ...flipping silently through an art book" LOL! Don't you just love that vision? Walker lost it and triggered something in his mother that made her start her flight and end up through the glass facade. He followed her all the way. Maybe he was trying to save her before it was too late. But "before the blood started she looked like something crystal." It was too late, he could no longer save her. He knew because he wss like her. We are told repeatedly. Walker has a guilty feeling of not being able to save his mother and being the cause of her break-down. He is a flaneur because it is a curse to settle down. Ned knows this well, and, decides to leave the house to Pip. He is trying to save his son and indirectly free himself of the curse that has been the house and all it represents.

But did Ned do it for love?

(Moon).... He(Walker) knew because he was like her. We are told repeatedly. Walker has a guilty feeling of not being able to save his mother I'm with you here.Nan tells him he's like his mother "on a good day". ....and being the cause of her break-down. Don't remember any dialogue that relates to this part though. He is a flaneur because it is a curse to settle down. At least Ned thought so...but Walker wanted to. (I bet he wanted to dump that name too!) Ned knows this well, and, decides to leave the house to Pip. He is trying to save his son and indirectly free himself of the curse that has been the house and all it represents. Lots to think about here, Moon. You might be on to something. Thanks.

It is because of his guilty feeling of not being able to save his mother that he feels that he is responsible fro her break-down which is triggered by Walker,"And I lost it. I mean it was uncontrollable. Anyway this triggered something in my mother and she just dashed out of there." He pursued her but couldn't catch her. (Thus his guilty feeling comes out because he couldn't catch her/couldn't save her).

Moon, I'm afraid I can't follow you all the way on this one. The guilt feeling Walker has about his mother may be implied by the words, but--other than the mention of this triggering behavior-- Walker only describes her as more-or-less-mad. Nor does he seem to feel any responsibility...her behavior was due solely to her madness (although "an amphetomine may have been involved"...) Those who attended the play: Was there any nuance placed on any of Walker's references to imply guilt? I only read it, but the first reaction would have horror and trauma...he went and hid in the laundry room for the next ten hours...from a sense of helplessness? Probably. but not, I think of responsibility. And he has been running and hiding ever since, because part of the trauma was--for this eight-year-old-boy--was the realization that he had no one to run to. Not his mother, certainly. Not his uncommunicative father. His sister is much his own age, so does not have much more of a clue about things than he does. But you'll notice that when he runs away later in life, he does it so that she must come and look for him...the only sign in this world that anybody cares about him. I suspect that Pip joined in the search as they got older, but Walker is still a man with no one to run to, not really. He is a burden on Nan, and he knows he is a burden. He is still looking for that ideal place to hide--but not too ideal--or Nan won't be able to find him.

(Evelyn) He probably ignored him...didn't know how to relate to him as a child. I don't think he hated his son...but Walker must have grown up thinking so. Yes, Ned and Walker share that inherited trait--the inability to relate to children--continuing the saga of Ned's poor relationship with his parents. Interesting that Ned's parents used money to bridge that "guilt span" just as Ned does for Walker, by giving him the money instead of the house. No one learns in this family. (KJArt) Did Ned feel neglected and resent it? Or was he contentedly anti-social? Did he avoid contact with the grandchildren, too? (Poor Nan!) Ned probably withdrew as Lina's madness progressed. She was the one who drew him out and, if she wasn't there, then he became the silent one again. (KJArt) "It was wicked."...Did she [Nan] believe that denying Walker the house was done out of spite? Was it? Apparently. Janeway House was Ned's most important legacy and he didn't bequeath it to his children. What else would people think? But unfortunately, it is consistent with Ned's modus operandi. Like his journal scribbles, he didn't care what others understood. He knew what it meant and that's all that mattered to him. (Evelyn) Walker never had a chance to be normal....by genetic cause or environment. Excellent point. (Heide) Ned's journal entries give away nothing. Why can't he use this to speak what he can't say out loud?...What does this say of Ned's state of mind? Geniuses often use a form of shorthand for their ideas. As an architect, it makes sense that Ned wouldn't rely on words. He used his art. With Janeway House, even Walker knew implicitly that "it could only have been designed by someone who was happy." (Moon) Ned...is trying to save his son and indirectly free himself of the curse that has been the house and all it represents. I can't agree with the concept of the house and all it represents being a curse. The house was the tangible result of the best three days of his life. If the house were a curse that caused Lina's madness and Theo's loss of self, why would he give it to Pip? He got along fine with Pip. If it were a curse, he would have given it to a charity, taken it out of the lives of all he care for. (Moon) But did Ned do it for love? Yes, but IMO Ned's mistake was in thinking that Walker would be happy pursuing the life he himself wanted--that of a flaneur. Walker is a combination of both Ned and Lina. He isn't the perfect "flaneur-to-be" because he has inherited traits from Lina, which make that impossible. (KJArt) Was there any nuance placed on any of Walker's references to imply guilt? Colin spoke matter-of-factly about the mother's madness, with the line about the amphetamines tossed off very casually. (KJArt) But you'll notice that when he runs away later in life, he does it so that she must come and look for him...the only sign in this world that anybody cares about him Nan is his substitute mother image even though she's only two years older than he. Scares him into returning when she hasn't found him.

(Karen) Geniuses often use a form of shorthand for their ideas. As an architect, it makes sense that Ned wouldn't rely on words. That's the best explanation I could imagine for Ned's cryptic journal entries but I'm still not satisfied. Did he use his journal for his ideas? What ideas? "Theo is dying." "Theo is dying" "Theo is dead". We don't really know what else was in it other than what Walker read to us. If he doesn't rely on words, why use a journal - a diary for boys. (Karen) I can't agree with the concept of the house and all it represents being a curse. The house was the tangible result of the best three days of his life. Agree with Karen. And how well Colin conveyed that happiness. You could see his adoration of Lina. It was wonderful. Is the house the "beginning of error"? Before he begins he says, "Things are so much better before they actually start." Then he makes his first mark. "The beginning...of error." Speaks of his relationship with Lina too. The beginning of error. Liked what Lina said though, "Make a home."

(Heide) (Walker)...."Things are so much better before they actually start." Then he makes his first mark. Lina says that too: Isn't that moment thrilling, right before it starts (rain) and everything turns purple and the awnings shake and the buildings ignite from the inside? I love that part. That is so true with many events and experiences...that split second before a kiss!!:-)

( KJArt), Walker only describes her as more-or-less-mad. Nor does he seem to feel any responsibility...her behavior was due solely to her madness (although "an amphetomine may have been involved"...) This is his adult analytical response, and probably repeating something he has heard over the years. but the first reaction would have horror and trauma...he went and hid in the laundry room for the next ten hours...from a sense of helplessness? Probably. but not, I think of responsibility. He is a small boy who has just experience a major traumatic experience which was triggered by his �losing it.� A child that age would think it was his fault. That feeling of guilt stayed with him. And he has been running and hiding ever since, because part of the trauma was--for this eight-year-old-boy--was the realization that he had no one to run to. Agreed. (Karen), I can't agree with the concept of the house and all it represents being a curse. The house was the tangible result of the best three days of his life. If the house were a curse that caused Lina's madness and Theo's loss of self, why would he give it to Pip? He got along fine with Pip. If it were a curse, he would have given it to a charity, taken it out of the lives of all he care for. They might have been the only three best days of his life. It is a curse because of the unhappy turn of events. Theo dead, Lina mad, his having to take care of two small children when he didn�t like children or want them in the first place. The house for a manqu� flaneur is a holding block, a prison, a curse. He gives it to Pip because he has a different outlook on life. The house would not be a prison for Pip and Ned felt that it ould be for Walker. (Moon) But did Ned do it for love? (Karen), Yes, but IMO Ned's mistake was in thinking that Walker would be happy pursuing the life he himself wanted--that of a flaneur. Walker is a combination of both Ned and Lina. He isn't the perfect "flaneur-to-be" because he has inherited traits from Lina, which make that impossible. That was Ned�s mistake. But there always was a problem communicating in that family. Ned always spared his words, we see that in the journal.

I can remember the first feedback from those who had actually seen the play performed. Almost all expressed how moved they were by (and were in sympathy with) the character Ned. Looking back over these analytical remarks, I find it interesting that--as we dig deeper into the implications of this play--the mood seems to have shifted... Walker was the first character we were introduced to...he was funny but obnoxious,too, caustic, opinionated, bitter. Then Nan trying anxiously to be nuturing but split between her brother's, her family's and her friend's needs. We next met Pip, good-natured, seemingly simplistic, even enthusiastic at times. The events in Act I changed how they interpreted their past lives, and how, I think, they see their futures. Act II introduces us to Theo--ambitious, brash, an extrovert. He's arguing with his girlfriend Lina (who's just messed up an important interview). She seems sly and definitely vociferous. These two are bounced off Ned...painfully shy, with difficulty in communicating to others, but also bothered by this ongoing argument between the other two. By the end of this act, Theo's ambitions have been, if not thwarted, then greatly altered as is his self-image. Lina's allegience has been switched to Ned, because he's such "a nice man", and Ned has embarked on a new vision of what his future could be. If we go by personality, Walker has to be the least sympathetic of these characters (with Theo, perhaps a close second). We watch him manipulate, humiliate, and control his friends, who, nevertheless, seem to tolerate this behavior because "He's in so much pain". Well, is it just me, but I sense a shift as these discussions have progressed to a greater and greater sympathy for Walker; and I'm trying to figure out why we do we seem to sympathize with such an unsympathic character? We have seen, I think, that he IS in so much pain, has always been, and this is his legacy for the future. Theo loses Lina and a piece of his self-esteem, but he wanders off, gains Maureen (who seems to be a NICE woman) and obviously his ego can't be that bruised because he's still i the firm Wexler and Janeway when he dies. Lina's been confused and insecure about Theo, but she gains Ned, marriage and children, just as she wanted. Ned, who IS terribly sympathetic throughout the second act, gains love, inspiration and ultimately will not lose his friend Theo after all. Pip was pretty much happy with his life to begin with and not much about that changes...he gains an inheritance of a very valuable house and still seems to be in good books with both Nan and his travelling mother (st ll looking for another "wet guy"). Nan's been torn up a bit, I think, by events, but she has her friends and family who she obviously enjoys and is proud of...they are still there to provide moral support. Walker loses what he expected to gain, loses even his sense of value he had for it and is given nothing to replace it or compensate for it. Where is his "Lina"?. Where is his "family about him"?, his "Wexler and Janeway" (or his "Butte"!!!) Where is his future? We percieve his pain, his inability to change much of it or move beyond it. In the end, it is Walker we sympathize with most..

I understand Walker the most but I don't sympathize with him. You have some very good points, KJArt.

Thank you, KJArt for your perceptive comments...and I mostly agree with you...we certainly dissected all of them pretty thoroughly. (KJArt)In the end, it is Walker we sympathize with most.. I understand where "Walker is coming from"...but I don't sympathize with him either....And in a way, he is content too...at the end. There is closure to his unresolved feelings. (His ritual at the cemetery...burning the Journal..) I personally subscribe to: "You- play- with -the- cards- you're -dealt" philosophy. And of course, even if poor Ned was disappointed later in life....he still had those Three Days of Rain!! Anyway, that's MO.

Just dropped by for a massive fix of 3DOR, it is wonderful to read everything you have all written.

It has certainly illuminated much more of the play, I wish I had time to join in but if I stopped to comment on the "comments" ,I would still Be here when the rerun starts!!! Thanks again Moon , I owe you an apology re an email I did promise- bear with me!

Hi all, I m writing from a small unknown tabacchi shop in a hidden street of Volterra, Tuscany ..... I managed to excape the wilderness to join the civilized world for half an hour. No finds in antique shops yet :-) hope all is well with you all.

That is really amazing Renate, in wonderful Volterra with all its Etruscan trasures, a place off the beaten track, you found a Tabaccheria with Internect access!!! Sending a big greeting back to you. If you're serious about antique finds, I recommend Lucca. We will want a full report on your return.

Excuse the spelling please, I was in a rush.

(Heide) Did he use his journal for his ideas? What ideas?...If he doesn't rely on words, why use a journal - a diary for boys. Not relying on words doesn't mean to me that he doesn't use them. He uses them sparingly, makes each one count, consistent with Evelyn's earlier comment about stutterers. Ned might have begun the journal because he had something in his life he wanted to record and replay in his own mind. It meant something to him for all time. He made the comment about going to architecture school "to kill time." That was his life before Lina, he was a demiflaneur. Now, he desired some permanent record of his own existence, even if it was cryptic to the outside world. (Heide) Is the house the "beginning of error"? Speaks of his relationship with Lina too. The beginning of error. The BIG question, isn't it of this play? What is the "beginning of error"? Given the circularity of the play, it would have to refer to all the erroneous conclusions the children will form about their parents. But on another level, it would touch on Ned's life again. As KJ asked earlier, if Ned could see "every moment" of the house with "astonishing clarity," why did he go forward with Lina (the beginning of error)? Simple as it sounds, why not? He was so happy. His fate be damned. (Moon) The house for a manqu� flaneur is a holding block, a prison, a curse. He gives it to Pip because he has a different outlook on life. The house would not be a prison for Pip and Ned felt that it would be for Walker. Love the term manqu� flaneur, but I still don't think Ned viewed the house as a curse. Ned wanted to ensure that Walker could live the life of a flaneur and all that required was sufficient means; a house has permanence and causes one to set down one's roots. Walker had all that was necessary: "most of my money is in traveler's checks." (KJArt) I find it interesting that--as we dig deeper into the implications of this play--the mood seems to have shifted... Well we have uncovered new aspects to these characters through the give and take of our discussion. So unless one is a stubborn donkey (to put it nicely), initial impressions are bound to change as new facts are brought to light, new facts contingent on an understanding in some case of the cultural/literary references. KJ, I thought your synopsis was great and I agree with most all. Am calling the university presses as we speak!! *You must publish* ;-) (KJArt) I'm trying to figure out why we do we seem to sympathize with such an unsympathetic character? I enjoyed the Walker character from the beginning, but then again I love sarcastic, self-centered jerks! ;-) It also didn't hurt that Colin looked pretty damn good as Walker. But I digress... We the audience/readers are "normal" or "average" human beings like Pip (not geniuses or connoisseurs) , so we fall into the category of feeling sorry for Walker "because he is in so much pain." We are sympathetic to the bad cards he's been dealt (Evelyn's metaphor) by design (the environment in which he was raised) and by life (genetics). Poor baby didn't have a chance. While Walker denied feeling his father didn't love him, it is apparent to me that it was central to his character. Why else would he eed to reconcile Ned's final bequest? ******* What do you think of Greenberg's use of architecture and marriage as structural elements? Janeway House survived but the Janeway's Home did not.

...consistent with Evelyn's earlier comment about stutterers. I dated a stutterer in college. It's frustrating....conversations tend to be one-way. One feels sorry for them...they are somewhwat anti-social. And then one day one realizes that one is confusing pity for love. We don't see many stutterers today...speech therapists pick them up early in school. ***** (Karen)What do you think of Greenberg's use of architecture and marriage as structural elements?Janeway House survived but the Janeway's Home did not. Well, in this case it is a little unfair to compare the two...the house was built with better foundations than the Janeway marriage...Hey, these two made Paul Ashford's marriage look good!!

(heide)...If [Ned] doesn't rely on words, why use a journal...a diary for boys. As I remember, Gi pretty much had the handle on that one but nobody noticed!;-) His first entry...3 Days of Rain..."I'll know what it means..." As Karen noted, he wants to record and replay in his own head. Gi uses photos for the same thing....Ever notice how totally disinterested we usually are to other people's photo collections, but how fascinating our own are to us? That is because most of the images trigger ric memories in our heads--often of things, incidents, or people not even in the photograph. We use them as cues to our own rich memory, whereas they mean little to others beyond the surface image. Ned's "journal" is probably a series of cues. He is probably as secretive of his thoughts as he is with his words...he wouldn't want the journal to be found and reveal all...HE'LL know what it means...no one else needs to...and he can use it to replay his memories or remind him of events.

(Karen) What is the "beginning of error"? Good question. I'm sorry I don't have the manuscript with me, but I seem to recall something Ned said earlier as he was describing his horrible visions...Something to the effect that if he MINDED total failure or catastrophe then he wouldn't be part of this project, but evidently he didn't mind...he seemed very fatalistic about it. Maybe that's where the "beginning of error" remark came from...his belief that he would get nothing, didn't deserve anything and failure was inevitable to him. He is doing this for Lina, but I do not think he has turned suddenly into an optimist because of her...he's just willing to go with the flow (and the flow is always downhill, isn't it?)

Sorry about the multiple entries, but there are so many ideas in all different directions and my thoughts are easily fragmented...(as most of you must have noticed by now...) ;-) (Karen)" While Walker denied feeling his father didn't love him, it is apparent to me that it was central to his character. Who was it that said that the opposite of love is not hate but apathy? Hate at least acknowledges someone's existence...apathy wipes it out. I think the most affective characteristic of Walker is his almost plaintive need to be found by Nan...it reaffirms his existence and worth. (Karen) Janeway House survived but the Janeway Home did not. You know, it has just occurred to me that there is no evidence whatsoever that Ned or his immediate family ever actually lived in Janeway house. It was built as his parents' residence and they moved into it when it was finished...When Lina had her breakdown, they were living in some large apartment at the top of a skyscraper that Ned had designed. Did anybody ever see any clue that Ned and family had ever lived in Janeway House? (And if not, why would it be interpreted as a curse?). When Lina told him to "build a home", it was a home for somebody else! Maybe Ned's major "error" was that he never paused long enough to "build a home" for his own family...

No, there isn't any mention that Ned and family lived in Janeway House. However, I didn't mean to imply that they did. I meant any *home* for the Ned Janeways and a "home" is anywhere you hang your hat as the old song goes. It's not that prism (prison) place on Long Island. I don't view it as a curse either.

(Moon), The house for a manqu� flaneur is a holding block, a prison, a curse. Regardless of the fact of whether they lived there or not as a family, I assume that Ned was living there at the time of his death. The house also represents the beginning of the end to Ned the manqu� flaneur, because without it, there would not have been the Architectural firm of Janeway/Wexler and all it�s subsequent successes which blocked Ned�s true persona, cursing him to a life not of his choice but chosen for him first by his grandparents who put up the money and second by Lina who got him started n the drawings, something that the �talented� Theo was supposed to do not him. When one goes against one�s true nature, it will not fare well. Call me superstitious, but I truly believe that a place be it a home or business can give off good or bad vibrations, and these vibrations reflect the state of mind of the people that live and work there. The Orientals call it Feng-Shui.

Ibsen was a believer in freedom of will, but concerned with how heredity and environment shape a man's destiny. I find Greenberg very influenced by Ibsen.

(Karen)*You must publish*;-) LOL! Let's publish jointly.."Karen & Karen"...sounds like a Law Firm!!;-)

...Or an architectural one!!;-)

(KJArt)I think the most affective characteristic of Walker is his almost plaintive need to be found by Nan...it reaffirms his existence and worth. When Lina first broke down, remember how Walker hid for many hours until somebody found him?

This is in Liz Smith's column today and might explain somewhat why Tracy Letts' played Walker the way he did in the Steppenwolf production I saw. Letts' wrote this play Killer Joe that has been playing off-Broadway, I believe, for some time. THERE IS quite a fascinating showdown at the Soho Playhouse, a serio-comic slice of life, Tracy Letts' "Killer Joe." This is one hell of an evening in the theater - so graphic, violent and emotionally charged as to make the audience voyeurs, looking and listening to what is definitely not their business, wishing it would go away. But they remain hypnotized as well. It's the story of a trashy trailer park family - father, son, daughter, stepmom, planning to do away with the ex-wife, in order to collect her life insurance. They hire Killer Joe, and the madness commences. I have rarely seen performances of such intensity and shading. The great Scott Glenn, who originated the role of Joe in New York last October, has returned for a few weeks. His performance as the perverse killer is bad-tothebone chilling . . . Mim Drew as the sluttish stepmom . . . Marc A. Nelson as the desperate son . . . Michelle Williams as the pathetic but oddly crafty daughter, and Seth Ullian as the dopey, easilyledastray father are simply superb. This is strong stuff, be warned - there's frontal nu ity and no-holds-barred language.

Time to start a new film discussion? A groundswell of support had begun for Femme Fatale the last time I checked but I believe Apartment Zero and Master of the Moor is still in the running too. I think Moon would be disappointed if we did Apartment Zero without her so I vote we wait for that. Any other nominations?

Oooh goodie!! Another movie I can curl up with!! ;-) (as all good succubi would)

...circling like a sleepy pussycat...waiting to pop the chosen film into the VCR for a long summer's look-see and dissection...L@@king...

Is it FF then? **Sometime** I want to put my bid in for CAMILE....I know it's not a favorite around here ('cept for Nan and me). But there's great chemistry with Gretta Sacchi.

No, it's not decided. I was just voicing my opinion. After a serious one like 3DOR, a change of pace would be nice. But I'm open to others and will participate in whichever one receives the most interest.

This was a great week for me Firthwise. I saw three new (to me) films. The downside of this is, of course, that I shall soon be reduced to your situation of having to wait on pins and needles for CF's one or two films a year...not a pretty thought. Thanks to Heide, I have just viewed Tumbledown and Master of the Moor. A few thoughts on these... Both were excellent. DB should surely have received the BAFTA for Tumbledown, as his performance IMO was what made the movie so effective (and the reason it won the BAFTA). One couldn't say Colin is an actor who is vain about his looks. He was so moving in the scene with his parents (among many others), crying about the loss of his men. RL may have seemed arrogant with the Stubbs, but that attitude is probabl what saved him. I found him for the most part admirable; he really cared for his men and they for him. I didn't like Mrs. Stubbs' assessment of RL and Hugh as killers, not heroes. Yes, war should not be necessary, but sometimes it is, and often these young soldiers are, indeed, heroes in terrible situations not of their own making. BTW, can anyone tell me what "yomping" is? As for Master of the Moor, it was gripping start to end and very, very sad. Excellent performances all around, along with a great script and cinematography. Had me in tears at the end when CF was crying in his Dad's arms (I also liked the scene when he told his dad he loved him).The interrogation scene was masterful - the inspector was terrifying and Stephen's hands, posture, eyes and inarticulateness so eloquent .Colin does vulnerable far better than any actor I have seen. But, I must wonder why he is so concerned about typecasting when he plays so many victims. I really, really hope that he doesn't play any more corpses, along with cads and neurotics. The perfect antidote to MOTM is Fever Pitch, which I just loved. It might have been low-budget, but then, Paul's world is low-budget.I didn't care for the kid, as he didn't seem at all like the adult Paul in either looks or personality; he had no charm and that is an inherent trait, not a learned one (the boy in MOTM was very effective, on the other hand). Adored the restaurant scene, which conveyed brilliantly and succintly both Paul's charms and his weaknesses in just a few minutes. Paul must be reasona ly intelligent, even if he isn't steeped in D. H. Lawrence, since his apartment is filled with books. As for his teaching abilities, never underestimate the value of enthusiasm, energy and the ability to relate well to children to inspire them to learn. Paul is the best kind of teacher for the ordinary students (and their parents) who mostly fill classrooms. Beyond all of this, Colin is CUTE, ADORABLE, DELICIOUS in this film. My vote for the film discussion goes to either FF or MOTM.

Evelyn, if Camille was more widely available, I would vote for it, also. I love his Young Darcy look with the wildly curly locks and the emotive eyes. However it is out of the question for now, I imagine, so whatever the majority chooses I will watch and probe and analyze and drool.

Yomping is hiking/marching cross country with backpack. if Camille was more widely available than what? The other widely available Colin films? ;-) You know we have a can-do attitude for those who pledge to participate. Where there's a will there's a way...and priority mail.

This is true, but I have a copy of TA and cannot manage to copy it for the several who requested it. The local guys want more to copy mine than Reel.com did when I bought it there. (I am alone too much here and it is sunday and the new car sits idle while R does good things for his own glory elsewhere. I will go read something...)

(Marcia) if Camille was more widely available, I would vote for it, also I thought it was available from reel.com.It is a lousey tape however.Starts off like a second.

True,it is a poor tape, but is he not the most gorgeous Darcy in the making you have seen in any of his early movies? I am Trying to encourage everyone interested in a young and droolworthy Firth to go straight away to Reel.com and grab one. It should be in your hands and your hearts by the end of the week...get to it!!!

For those of you who want to see more of Camille, the Roles Pages feature Camille among others. Go to the FOF (Meluchie ) Page or Murph's Page and scroll down.

I vote for FF. Karen (as all good succubi would) Heehee! Have you got a lovely tattoo also? ;-)

For those of you who would like a copy of 3 DOR** in book form The Drama Bookshop will send one to you. Only $5.25 plus postage... 1-800 322-0595 723 seventh Ave. New York, NY 10019 FAX 212-730-8739. ** 3 DOR by Richard Greenberg ISBN 0-8222-1679-0 KJArt email me...I have yours.

I got my copy of Camille by getting it from my public library and making a copy (when I still had 2 nicely-working VCR's, that is). You might want to check out this resource...it's how I got my copy of Apartment Zero as well.

Watch for the pirating police. This is a public board.

Is that all? Thanks, ladies, who gave your votes. I'd like others to send out their votes too. Remember, not all discussions have to be on the same level as the recent Three Days of Rain. Not everyone has the time to do more than list your favorite Colin (character) Looks, Walk, Lines, etc. and frankly, I love those discussions as much as the highly literate and researched discourse we've enjoyed in the past. And I can think of quite a few favorite looks for FF but sorry, Evelyn and Marcia, can't think of any for Camille. Still, if Camille gets the most votes, I bow to you.

You're probably right. He was too young to give meaningful looks and gestures in Camille, but I think it worth the effort, sometime. Even if it is just to get the movie into wider circulation. I have a whole bunch of wav files from FF including "come back to bed" and "you have to marry me" (they *are* from FF, are they not?)

I have a whole bunch of wav files from FF including "come back to bed" and "you have to marry me" (they *are* from FF, are they not?) Oh yeah!! I get freezer burn when I hear that last one. ;-)

I don't recall "come back to bed" but that last one, *sigh*. (Heide) Remember, not all discussions have to be on the same level as the recent Three Days of Rain Goody. I'm afraid the 3DOR discussion got so far over my head it was up there with the satellites. It's time for something light and fluffy! Vote for FF! Vote for FF!

FF...FF...FF....FF..."Light and Fluffy"...."Light and Fluffy".

(Eileen) I'm afraid the 3DOR discussion got so far over my head it was up there with the satellites. Unless you lay down with head on curb, doubt this will happen with FF! ;-D

Yup! FF it is from Hilo but the way he got walloped at that tree, it was not all sweetness and light. I hurt right along with him, or am I confused again?!

Besides, it is the only one of his movies in which he mentions MY Island!

Femme Fatale it is! Light and fluffy sounds good. Since the weekend will probably be slow, how about we start Tuesday, July 6? Does anyone remember while watching this film the very first time, if they suspected Elijah, even for a second, of being in on Cynthia's disappearance? We can discuss Tuesday along with those favorite looks, outfit, line, grin, carnal moment, etc.

July 6th it is! Fav carnal moment - other than the vertical shag which Arami has claimed?! Keepsake and fav scene list opening for use any time now!

Does everyone have this film? We haven't had much of a response. Vacations?

dont have the movie, but will swing by BlockBuster this weekend and see if i can rent a copy. Btw- what's it rated? Will have a 13 yr old staying with me this weekend, should i watch it after she goes to bed?

Are you suggesting we wait until more people respond before beginning a new film discussion? Don't hold your breath, Karen. SB, a couple of bed scenes, one sex scene, no nudity (oops, forgot the topless model), very little profanity (total sucking fuccubus). Hope you find it!

Heide ...take a head count....so far: Heide, Karen, evelyn, Marcia ,esbee, Eileen... Anybody else? Speak -up!! KJArt...how about you?

(Karen) Unless you lay down with head on curb, doubt this will happen with FF! ;-D LOL! Ideal summertime fare! Unless of course we decide to debate the existential symbolism of the scene in which the bad guy pulls the lollipop off his butt in the minivan... :-D I don't know if you'll have success at Blockbuster's, SB. Look in the bargain bin! I taped the movie from the Lifetime channel. It's been edited for TV and is full of commercials, but most of the good parts are there. If you can't find it, I'm sure our hostesses will accomodate you. I'm off today so I'll rev up the VCR. Haven't watched FF in awhile. Hang on Joe, here I come! See you all next week. To my fellow Americans, happy 4th!

What are we counting? Participants? OK by me if time allows.

I have FF and will try and re-watch this weekend so I can participate. But be forewarned that none of my comments are likely to be of the highbrow nature - not that this film warrants them :-). As Eileen said, a perfect film for my lazy, summer mood.

I must wonder why he is so concerned about typecasting when he plays so many victims. I really, really hope that he doesn't play any more corpses, along with cads and neurotics. He has said that he finds playing screwed up characters most interesting and challenging. it is the only one of his movies in which he mentions MY Island! He has never mentioned anything of mine in his movies so far... :-( [FF]very little profanity I believe the European cut has more "f...s" in the scene when he gets drunk. Even I was shocked the firth time I watched it!

It's 7/6...I've done my homework...I have an excuse for using the computer because cable TV is out (blasted heatwave)...so I guess I'll start (unless someone beats me to it while I'm pounding this out). FF (or Fatal Woman, if you will) is my favorite Firth film looks-wise. Joe is quite the hunk, IMO. I like the way his hair is cut and the clothes he wears (excepting the baseball-style cap, which was too far back on his head). He's all broad shoulders and dimples, dimples, dimples! *Sigh* Joe is so sweet and innocent, you just want to hug him. The storyline ranks somewhere between 'P' and SiL (much closer to P!). The drug theft subplot is totally superfluous; it would have been a better movie without those stupid amatuer (on purpose, I know) crooks and that ridiculous ending: "$50,000? No problem" and they all go home! The script might just as well have said right out "the movie's almost over and the writers are way off on this tangent. Let's just wrap it up now, OK?" There was enough going on with the psychiatric issues to keep the story going. Favorite scenes: 1. Can't beat that shopping/proposal scene. The first kiss (after "who are you calling a tart?" "There are people watching" "They're just jealous") is one of his sexiest. Definitely a rewind moment! And as we've mentioned on the other boards, the look on his face after the cat comment and her line "you come when I call" is precious. 2. Going through the box of Cynthia's stuff with Elijah--v. funny banter between them. Favorite lines: "Still can't draw faces?" Talking Cynthia to sleep "Is this your old navy days?" "Talk to me..." "I married a succubus" "Wagner? All that passion" (with smile as he waves the paintbrush) "OK, so you were lovers, and, um, drug dealers. What else can you tell me about her?" "Well, I always wanted to meet her friends..." "How many of you are there?" "Not even one." Favorite looks: Kissing Cynthia's neck from behind at the wedding Laying in bed when she's trying to convince him to paint again When Joe realizes it's Cynthia in the tape (stabbing the fork--yecchh). He's got such horror and revulsion in his eyes Chewing the limp celery stalk Watching the video of Cynthia with Dr. Beaumont At the end, sleeping with his arms up around his head My questions for discussion (take 'em in context, this script was no prize winner): Is Joe independently wealthy? Considering Dom Perignon at the wedding, honeymoon in Hawaii (Marcia's house?), he takes unlimited leave from work to search for Cynthia, etc. all on a park ranger's salary. At the art gallery, how about that live sculpture mummified in toilet paper? Was that ODB? It sure looked like him. What was the meaning of that? And was that Cynthia-as-Maura popping up on Elijah's TV as he's surfing through the channels? Again, it sure looked like her. At the end, when Joe finds Elizabeth in the wheelchair in her father's home, she moves her feet when he approaches her. Could she move them all along? Was Cynthia, a super-ego personality, faking Elizabeth's paralysis? Or at this point, was she faking Elizabeth all together as a means to hide from Dino and his clumsy jerk--oops, accomplises? It's been 20 years since I had psych in nursing school (not my favorite subject) and I can't recall if the personalities in MPD usually manifest themselves on a predictable, perhaps stress-induced basis. Does anyone know? Cynthia/Elizabeth sure showed up at the right time (likely just another plot flaw). Lasly, what's the deal with that ending? "I'm here" I take it that means "I haven't run off again" but it could also mean "I'm here and for once the rest of me is here as well" ???? Looking forward to a (heehee) lively discussion!

Excellent start, Eileen. Unfortunately, the dog ate my homework. ;-D

(Eileen) Favorite lines: "I married a succubus" Line is much funnier in FF. FW suffered from bleeping disorder. I'm sure it will surface on Heide's list of favs! She also has a soft spot for Colin's drunken bits. ;-D (Eileen) Favorite looks: Chewing the limp celery stalk Will definitely have to study this one in greater detail. hee hee

On this subject I am not by any manner or means an expert, but I did have a very close friend who had MPD. She got progressively worse and there was less and less of the lady I knew and more and more different personalities. I never quite knew who I was going to have lunch with. I served as her ground point to what she considered normalcy. Finally, the Mental Health Association called me one day and asked for help with her. By then, her "real" self had completely disappeared and she was someone no one kn w. She was institutionalized shortly thereafter in Pennsylvania where her Mother lived. I have no idea what has happened to her, but this idea of Joe making Cynthia well again was too painfully unreal for me and infused the whole movie with an air of unreality.

(Karen) FW suffered from bleeping disorder They did leave in most of that line (I believe just the word "sucking" was omitted). There were alot of missing words (or bad voiceovers--v. funny). Most of the lovemaking scene was likely edited out as well (but they did leave in the infamous sliver of blue! Shows you where I'm looking). (Marcia) but this idea of Joe making Cynthia well again was too painfully unreal for me and infused the whole movie with an air of unreality. Lynda has an interesting angle on this. I chalk it up to a less-than-stellar script. The writers weren't going for realism, they were going for "drama."

(Marcia) this idea of Joe making Cynthia well again was too painfully unreal for me and infused the whole movie with an air of unreality. I am repeating myself here, but IMO the movie is not saying that Joe is going to cure Cynthia, only that he is planning to try to help her, firstly by giving her his love, loyalty and some more objective stability than her guilt-ridden father can do. His reaction to her not being in bed and the expression on her face in the final shot does not indicate a fairy tale ending. Ambivalent ending, at best. In the TV Guide review (rated 3 stars out of 5) for this movie, the writer says that "the only real flaw n (FF) is Joe's misguided assumption that he...can help someone who is obviously severely disturbed ". Joe is young, passionately in love and idealistic, so this naivete is, to me, a flaw in Joe's character, (one shared by many, many people, therefore, believable), not a flaw in the screenplay. On a much lighter note, Colin as Joe is lovely to look at in this film; he is heroic, not nuerotic; he doesn't die (and had he abandonned Cynthia, would he not have been a cad); and best of all, he is in every scene. I also love the talking Cynthia to sleep scene; Joe can tell me bedtime stories whenever he wants, although it's highly unlikely that I would fall asleep. Colin does have a wonderful voice and in this scene uses it most effectively. Thanks for the great start, Eileen; I'll be back later with my favorite parts of FF.

I haven't done my homework either but since FF is one of my favorite films, Firth look-wise (and yes, those are the ones I watch the most), I won't have to do too much review. But great start... Don't you love the relationship between Joe and Elijah? There are some great lines between them ("Still can't draw faces" one of my faves too). At first I thought maybe their friendship was too good to be true and Elijah was in on this somehow. He did know just where to take Joe to get some clues. But I was glad they didn't try to complicate the plot by weaving something sinister in there. I give the film points for that and points for the model. I enjoyed her mothering of Joe. She had some cute li es too. "You're from England, aren't you." Duhh. I also give the film points for the bad guys. I know the ending sounds trite and Eileen gave it a good summation when she said "the movie's almost over and the writers are way off on this tangent. Let's just wrap it up now, OK?" But I'm generous here and saying this was something unexpected which I appreciated in this otherwise very predictable film. The name of the place where Joe first sees the Maura video escapes me now but what was with that waifish blonde guy who keeps staring at Joe? You see him furtively looking at Joe as he is looking at the "exhibits" and then you see him again when they're outside the men's room. And the shoes! Poor Joe buys his shoes at a department store. Tres outre'. (Eileen) I like the way his hair is cut and the clothes he wear.. Yes, yes..yummm. I love his clothes - the kind of ratty light blue shirt he wears when he's painting is one of my particular favorites. And how about the black sleeveless T? Was he with Meg during the filming of this? Lucky girl. how could she let him get away? (Eileen) Is Joe independently wealthy? Considering Dom Perignon at the wedding, honeymoon in Hawaii (Marcia's house?), he takes unlimited leave from work to search for Cynthia, etc. all on a park ranger's salary. LOL, my thoughts too though I never thought to express them. He just comes and goes at will...no boss to report to? Oh, I know he was supposed to be on his honeymoon anyway but how long do you think he was gone? And was that Cynthia-as-Maura popping up on Elijah's TV as he's surfing through the channels? I always thought Elijah was continuously watching the Maura videos. He seemed to have some kind of fascination for her lifestyle...I mean he really dug the cut-out black leather bra. (Karen) soft spot for Colin's drunken bits. You know me. Colin does drunk very well. It's "sucking fuccubus" he says that was altered on the TV version. (Marcia) have no idea what has happened to her, but this idea of Joe making Cynthia well again was too painfully unreal for me and infused the whole movie with an air of unreality. I won't make light of your friend's plight though I was tempted to mention the Pennsylvania connection. Lynda's summary at least can give us some grasp at plausibility. Joe thinks he can help Cynthia, no matter what we think, and that's the most important thing. (Lynda) On a much lighter note, Colin as Joe is lovely to look at in this film; he is heroic, not nuerotic; he doesn't die (and had he abandonned Cynthia, would he not have been a cad); and best of all, he is in every scene. Oh yes, don't we all want a Joe Prince of our own? He is truly a prince among men. Think that's deliberate, Karen? ;-) More later. Let's not stop.

Thank you Eileen and Lynda for getting us started on FF. After P&P this is my fave Colin role ( I see it�s Murph�s too from her Guest Book). But...I have a love/hate relationship with the film. On the one hand I love Joe Prince as a character...and the tender, sweet way Colin plays him.(maybe a lot of the real Colin in him??) A nature-nerd ( love the park ranger outfit and who else would stop to pick off a moth cocoon off a tree right after he�s spent the night in a cemetery getting beaten up) But I hate to see him in this low-class B- film ( a Bomb..as one critic called it) with such a lousy cast and script. The Zane sibs lack talent Big Time. They�re awful. Billed as a psycho-thriller...the only psychos were the script writers. The story line wasn�t all that bad. Agree with Eileen the drug sub-plot was terrible. The opening scene ..where he tenderly kisses bride Cynthia on the neck and then casually looks away..�who me?�... is a favorite. Agree about when he recites his... �trick for falling asleep�.... �You know there�s a trick I use...I listen...concentrate on the closest sound ...I disappear and try to become that sound ...the refrigerator...and the next sound farther away...the water...the stream...further ...and... further.� The timbre of his voice...the timing... He gives ordinary words a dimension.... rhythm...almost pentameter-like. I�d go anywhere to hear this guy read a cookbook!! Hate my Lifetime tape.....have ordered a real one from reel. com. They have it in stock.Should be here in a few days. Will ask psychologist son about MPD....but he usually de-bunks such stuff

Agree with what has been said about Joe and his aching need to cure her. I know all about that, too. I hung in there with what became a stranger for a year or more hoping I would see a tiny sliver of her former self and grasp it before it disappeared again. Favorite quote was about the Honeymoon in Hawaii where the Volcano is erupting (hey, did you not see the email address I put down for him on my Birthday list?!) Favorite look - any time I can see him is my favorite one =)

The only good thing I saw in this movie was Colin. Was the woman who played Cynthia billy Zane's sister? She is about the worst actress I have ever seen. The rest of the cast wasn't much better and as was said before the script was a bummmer.