The tally after ONE (1) day of voting: With results in from just 5 precincts, 3DOR should be discussed while we all remember it. The polls have not closed. ;-)

If you seriously want to discuss 3DoR and haven't read the play yet, just e-mail me and I can e-mail the entire script to you

I vote for 3 DOR...before I forget parts of it too. And Karen...let's invite the Springfolks to join us since a lot of them attended the 2nd weekend. **** BTW Karen the MLSF page is terrific....I am looking forward to seeing it...even though the book was insipid.But to see this man in any period film is a treat. He wears clothes so well...

Please take advantage of KJ's offer and you'll be able to join in (that is, IF we discuss 3DOR). You can ask questions, like "how did Colin do such and such?" (Evelyn) But to see this man in any period film is a treat. Or: But to see this man in any film is a treat. Period!! He wears clothes so well... Or: He wears no clothes so well... ;-)

I�ve suggested this once before and I�m doing it again: why don�t we send a NEW list of questions to Colin, about 3DOR and maybe his other "recent" projects, SiL for instance. He didn�t answer the previous question list but I don�t see why we couldn�t try again! I remember the questions in the other list were pretty personal ones, now we should stick stricktly to professional things. The press hasn�t interviewed him about the making of 3DOR and how he and the play got together etc. but he COULD be willing to answer some good questions about it directly to his fans....especially after seeing what a big bunch of his fans found their way to Donmar because of the Internet. And if he won�t answer, we can send him another list about MLSF and later about Don Quick, and so on! Sooner of later he�ll react.(?)

Elena, I agree with you about the question idea. However, as I mentioned over on #118, I think questions would work better in an online chat, like the ones on chat.yahoo.com and AOL. And I don't think it's such a far-fetched idea that Colin would (will) agree to do such a chat this summer. He's got 2 movies coming out in the U.S. quite close to one another -- movies that *he* will be responsible for promoting, since (should be blare of trumpets here) *he* is the lead:-) And online chats are fairly painle s compared with other forms of promo -- heck, he could do it from the desktop PC in Will's bedroom;-)

(SusanMC).....Re;CF logging on....he could do it from the desktop PC in Will's bedroom;-) Or from his agent's office. ICM is hooked up to the Internet. That's where JE logs on to her website. (According to her agent's PA)

(Susan) And I don't think it's such a far-fetched idea that Colin would (will) agree to do such a chat this summer. The chat idea is great and what fun it would be Susan but somehow I find it hard to believe that Colin would do it! This is just my personal instinct and I hope to be proved wrong....and the chat possibility of course must be tried out. Even though he didn�t answer to the other question list I still feel that the traditional method is the best way to approach him (in just about everything)!!

Pre-Donmar, I wouldn't have given Colin's participation in an on-line chat a chance (due to my hunch that he's not into computers and, most especially, that infamous 'internet' comment). But post-Donmar...a big chunk of his fans in attendance were from spring, FoF or RoP. I would think the other groups told him, as did Gi and others from our group, about their involvement in the internet. Winter told him at the LA SiL premiere. He's got to know by now that's where alot of his fans are, so IMO it's re sonable to think he'd do it given the appropriate technical support (if they had someone typing for Nick Hornby, who surely knows his way around a keyboard, then this won't be a problem). But we need a publicist to contact--I can't recall our discussion from January. Does he have one or not?

Eileen, I agree -- I think the Donmar experience with his fans made Colin aware of the beneficial effects the Internet has on his career. He must know that but for the Internet, none of his fans outside the U.K. would have had a clue that he was doing 3DOR. I like the idea of contacting the publicist. At worst, he'll say no, and he just might say yes. If he's skittish, we could even promise that questions would be limited to 3DOR and his film projects (i.e. nothing personal).

we could even promise that questions would be limited to 3DOR and his film projects (i.e. nothing personal). But I still want to know his musical taste. What does he play on that guitar of his? I must know! You two have a v. good point. I do not think he would be adverse to the idea, if someone does type for him, and now that Yahoo list cf.com (thank you Renate!), he might even do it there. Heide, Karen, something to think about, and act upon. ;-)) I will be away for the summer, but I am willing to leave a few questions for you ladies to ask on my behalf. :-D

Great idea Ladies. Afterall he did take our flowers home with him, (Livia did), so he is not, as we well know, unaware of us. Looking forward to 3DOR discussion, that is if it has been agreed.

Moon) I do not think he would be adverse to the idea, if someone does type for him I volunteer my services!

(Lizza), Afterall he did take our flowers home with him, (Livia did), so he is not, as we well know, unaware of us. Lizza, how do you know this? Pray tell! And, what did you write on the card?

Lizza, how do you know this? Yes, Lizza, please. I�ve been waiting for you to tell us the rest of the story about the flowers. Or maybe you already did but I didn�t notice? (What flowers were they?)

Shall we start the discussion of Three Days of Rain tomorrow? Monday? Rather pointless to start tonight, as some of us will be watching either Horatio or Mr. Buns of Steel (thank goodness for VCRs)!! To get this rolling, what are your overall impressions of Walker? He starts the play, lying there on the bed, comtemplating the noises of a city in which he doesn't feel he belongs, telling us his views on the "World According to Walker."

If I�m interpreting this silence correctly, we really didn�t see a play but Colin in a play and that�s about it!? Actually I didn�t find 3DOR a very interesting play, not because I only had eyes for Colin in Donmar but because the play IS kind of trivial. When I read it before London I really wondered how a play like this could be made interesting. It was interesting enough because of two very good performances, Colin�s and DM�s but the text is boring. Why did Colin choose to be in that play? Maybe because there�s something in Walker�s character that�s close to Colin�s own personality. I could imagine the same sort of frustrated enthusiasm about some things.....and because Walker also had been hiding for too long in Tuscany:-)

(Elena) ....but the text is boring. LOL Elena....I thought the dialogue was brilliant. V. contemporary, sophisticated, poignant at times, yet humorous .I am from NY ...I have met people like Walker (the name conjures his personality!!) I think this was an excellent choice for Colin to make for his re-entry after five years to the Westend. For starters, it had never been done before...no comparisons; a mystery/comedy as I saw it. V. inventive story-line. I agree that he made the part...but then he makes all the parts he plays. As they say...�some actors come on stage and you have to spotlight them, some actors bring the spotlight with them�. He�s definitely the latter. When he first came on stage in that Darcy -stride (you�d know him anywhere.. even in the dark) and started the story- line, I was hooked. Of course I had read it many times (thanks to Karen). ****** (Karen)what are your overall impressions of Walker? Walker..is a troubled loner..hippie-like... a �trustaferian�( ran across that word recently and can�t find it in the dictionary)...a rich kid feigning poverty. You bet he�s a mis-fit and enjoys it...works at it. Irresponsible. Cruel to Pip...that relationship was not well developed, IMO. But one got to know Walker well. **** Question: Is the stage setting part of the script? I mean, does the individual company have options to alter their own settings? The room looked like a Soho loft in New York.That minimalist look that is so �in�.The stairway and balcony was brilliant. Although I held my breath every time Colin ran up!! Given his propensity to trip.He never did...but he did trash the faucet in the matinee...but recovered gracefully.

I've just read the script and defer to all you experts who've seen the play. But it seems to me that Walker's got some baggage. What causes him to flee at the drop of a hat, telling no one? IMO it had something to do with, at the ripe old age of eight, seeing his mother become catatonic then fly through the glass door. How on earth did you all *not* LOL when Nan asked Walker where he was for the past year and he responded "Italy?"

I am from New York too and found the dialog extremely funny often sarcastic and pretentious as well. Luckily, I did not have a problem with the many references, literary or architectural in nature. There was of course Trimalchian which my DH quickly explained. Overall, it was not for everyone, and that�s probably what attracted ODB to the role, it was for a selective audience (of course, the irony is that women will flock anywhere, and across oceans and mountains to see him, and, if he also happens to be on a bed and get wet, well�so much the better ;-)) He wants to shake off that Darcy image but that�s just what sold out the show. He met the fans, he knows. (Karen)what are your overall impressions of Walker? Walker has his �mad moments� like his mother. He is also jealous of his father. We see this in his opening description of his father�s accomplishments. He is also an architect and in Italy he states that he rented �quite a fine villa, to study it and learn the bones of the building�, (I did not think he was a rich kid feigning poverty), and remember he travels with lots of traveler�s checks. He ends up in that apt. because it�s available after his long journey home. He wants his father�s house because he is trying to make peace with him, it is harder to be jealous of a dead man. (Think Ned and Theo). *Something to do with fenestration, he sees clearly through it now that his father is dead.** (Sorry, couldn�t resist, blame Greenberg) :-)

I think the play translates pretty well beyond American borders but it is still essentially an American play so I can see non-Americans questioning what the heck this is all about. There's a caffeine-induced (or in this case sleep-deprived) edginess bordering on neurotic that is very familiar in American characters today. I don't really want to use Woody Allen to guide you here because this goes beyond that - there's humor but it's sarcastic and caustic. To me it's reflective of an American generation t at has everything materially but still can't find happiness. (Evelyn) When he first came on stage in that Darcy -stride (you�d know him anywhere.. even in the dark) I'm getting shivers as I remember this. You'll have to forgive us sometimes for bringing up personal observances every now and then. It's still what's most clear in my mind...not necessarily the play itself, just moments. I remember clutching my friend Debbie's arm when he first walked on the stage in the dark. .The stairway and balcony was brilliant. Although I held my breath every time Colin ran up!! And when he ran down. There was one moment when he came pounding down the stairs in those big heavy boots. Made a hell of a noise. (Eileen) What causes him to flee at the drop of a hat, telling no one? IMO it had something to do with, at the ripe old age of eight, seeing his mother become catatonic then fly through the glass door. Probably central to his character. It seems also that he's been told that he's like his mother. He probably thinks he's a bit nuts himself so he must act the part. How on earth did you all *not* LOL when Nan asked Walker where he was for the past year and he responded "Italy?" Probably because we all had our fists in our mouth to keep from sighing too loudly. ;-) I think there was a slight rustling in the seats though when he did say "Italy". (Moon) He wants his father�s house because he is trying to make peace with him, it is harder to be jealous of a dead man. (Think Ned and Theo). I think that's an interesting observation and I'd like to search through more of the play to see if there are examples where Walker may be trying to make peace with Ned. I'd answer your questions, Karen, but I still have to study.

(Eileen)...defer to all you experts who've seen the play. We're not experts....you must understand that some of us were catatonic ourselves. i.e. I saw the whole matinee through my binoculors...does that make me an expert.? No. That makes me a Peeping Tom :-). So anyone who read it is on an even keel. (Moon)He wants his father�s house because he is trying to make peace with him, it is harder to be jealous of a dead man. (Think Ned and Theo). *Something to do with fenestration, he sees clearly. Interesting concept. Worth pondering. I can see where fenestration comes in with this idea. Hmmmmmmm

(Moon)Overall, it was not for everyone I guess I�m one of everyone then:-) It�s a nice play but pretty unsignificant IMO. Still it was very interesting to see, I haven�t seen that sort of stuff live in a theater before. It�s subtle and sophisticated enough to work well in tv, and only in a very small theater like Donmar. (Heide)non-Americans questioning what the heck this is all about Yes, there really is a cultural difference what comes to theater and I believe you have no idea how big it really is. 3DOR is a play that wouldn�t sell in Finland for an instant. And tell you what, it didn�t really make me laugh, just as little as American sitcom does, and just as little as Finnish humour would probably entertain Americans!

(Elena) And tell you what, it didn�t really make me laugh, just as little as American sitcom does,... Oh Elena...please don't judge our sense of humor based on American sitcoms...they are mostly dreadful ,IMO. On the same par as some of the talk shows.When I was in UK, I saw the worst of each of these genres... I was mortified I have never had the oportunity to see a Finnish film, I would like to v. much.

(Elena)Actually I didn�t find 3DOR a very interesting play...When I read it before London I really wondered how a play like this could be made interesting Indeed, I wondered so too. I thought the plot was rather transparent at times, to the point of clich�. Antonio even asked whether I really wanted to go, after I told him the story. But seeing it on stage was great. To see what good actors can do with a screenplay, and what very good actors can... (Evelyn)I have met people like Walker (the name conjures his personality!!) Walker..is a troubled loner..hippie-like... a rich kid feigning poverty. You bet he�s a mis-fit and enjoys it...works at it. Irresponsible. Cruel to Pip... (Moon Dreams)Walker has his �mad moments� like his mother.He is also jealous of his father... He is also an architect...He wants his father�s house because he is trying to make peace with him... (Heide)It seems also that he's been told that he's like his mother. He probably thinks he's a bit nuts himself so he must act the part. Oh, I think he is terrified of becoming mad like his mother. He is a very lonely person, has always been, more sensitive and more intelligent than the others around him, or regarded as such and regarding himself as such, which comes to the same thing. He follows this road as though it were his destiny. He longs to belong, though, and I think he wants the house because he needs roots. He cannot make peace with his father, whom he completely misunderstands, and is terribly jealous and hurt at his discovery f his father's closeness to Pip. We in the end find out that he is what is father would want to be "if he were stronger", but poor Walker doesn't know this. And I don't think he is very strong, though possibly a survivor. I wonder did his father recognize this, I don't think so. (Eileen)How on earth did you all *not* LOL when Nan asked Walker where he was for the past year and he responded "Italy?" I'm sure I chuckled :-)

Offer still open to send manuscript of play via e-mail to anyone who wants it--just send me your e-mail address!

(Gi) Oh, I think he is terrified of becoming mad like his mother. I agree. Seems to me that's why he kept running away, not telling anyone where he was--escaping, if you will. (Evelyn) We're not experts....you must understand that some of us were catatonic ourselves But most of you did see it twice (catatonic or not!) and read it as well. Reading only the script is so one dimensional, particularly one that includes such minimal stage direction. (Heide) You'll have to forgive us sometimes for bringing up personal observances Feel free. It helps me to put the script in context. For example: when did Walker and Nan run up and down the steps? When did Ned douse himself with water (famously pulling the tap off in the matinee)? I thought there were a few quips relative to NYC that outsiders wouldn't get (for example, there was a joke about the IRT) but there were far more references to other things that were beyond me. (Moon) There was of course Trimalchian which my DH quickly explained Please share! Speaking of Walker, did anyone else sense the irony of this passage? NED: I haven't g-got the strength of character. But it's what I would w-wish...for someone better than I am. I think it would be the best thing! To be this...vagabond prince. Do you know? A wanderer through the city. A walker. Hmmmmm...

(Eileen)..A wanderer through the city. A walker. I alluded to that in my opener.... a flandeur (I think that is what I am....always thinking of the next best place to go!!)

(Eileen)Speaking of Walker, did anyone else sense the irony of this passage? NED: I haven't g-got the strength of character. But it's what I would w-wish...for someone better than I am. I think it would be the best thing! To be this...vagabond prince. Do you know? A wanderer through the city. A walker. Didn't I?

(Elena) the play IS kind of trivial...the text is boring. I thought the text was its best aspect. The dialogue was smart, sharp and biting. In some reviews, his dialogue is compared to Noel Coward's Everytime he mentions a person or thing (from Trimalchian to the World of Suzy Wong), it means something--very clever how they all link so well. I did put together a Cliff's Notes to the play if anyone is interested (I can email it). It does elaborate on all the references, which are exceedingly clever. It might also provide some clues as to what the play is about on another level. BTW, after consulting assorted reference materials, I couldn't find Trimalchian. Guido came through. (Elena) Why did Colin choose to be in that play? My guess is the opportunity to play two different characters in the same play. This would be so challenging for him and would showcase his abilities to the max. A tour de force for him, especially since both were such bizarre characters. (Evelyn) Is the stage setting part of the script? I mean, does the individual company have options to alter their own settings? The playwright provides as much or as little information as to the set as he/she wants, but it's really up to the director and set designer. They do what they think works best for them, based on the director's vision/interpretation and budget!! (Eileen) But it seems to me that Walker's got some baggage. Absolutely, everybody has baggage, most of it in the form of his/her parents. When each of the present-day characters does his/her monologue to the audience, what do they talk about? Their parents, not themselves. As some have written, the play is also about a legacy, an inheritance, but the inheritance is more than just a house, it is genetic as well. What causes him to flee at the drop of a hat, telling no one? IMO it had something to do with, at the ripe old age of eight, seeing his mother become catatonic then fly through the glass door. Very interesting, Eileen, please go on. (Eileen) How on earth did you all *not* LOL when Nan asked Walker where he was for the past year and he responded "Italy?" As others have said, it was difficult. But there was another line that Pip says about his mother that gave me a case of the inner chuckles: "I think she's looking for another park bench, and another wet guy." Another wet guy, indeed!! (Moon) it was for a selective audience (of course, the irony is that women will flock anywhere, and across oceans and mountains to see him, and, if he also happens to be on a bed and get wet, well�so much the better ;-)) I see our criteria are much the same. ;-) (Moon) and remember he travels with lots of traveler's checks Hilarious!! Walker with traveler's checks. So middle class, so normal that it becomes perverse. (Moon) He ends up in that apt. because it's available after his long journey home. His long day's journey into night. Sorry, I couldn't resist (you started it, Moon). ;-) (Moon) He wants his father's house because he is trying to make peace with him....*Something to do with fenestration, he sees clearly through it now that his father is dead.** Love the bit about the fenestration although am not sure about the jealous part. In Walker's mind, having the house would help him understand his father (the father who didn't act like a father). Remember his explanation to Nan about finding this apartment/office: "The place is so nothing. I couldn't imagine why he'd kept it. I paced the floor for two days, screaming at the walls: 'Speak! Speak!' It was infuriating." Shame he didn't realize that the walls were screaming back at him! ;-) (Eileen) What causes him to flee at the drop of a hat, telling no one? IMO it had something to do with, at the ripe old age of eight, seeing his mother become catatonic then fly through the glass door. (Gi) Oh, I think he is terrified of becoming mad like his mother. I definitely agree with you two. He must have been scared out of his mind that he would indeed end up like his mother. Escape. (Gi) He is a very lonely person, has always been, more sensitive and more intelligent than the others around him, or regarded as such and regarding himself as such, which comes to the same thing. Well said. (Gi) is terribly jealous and hurt at his discovery of his father's closeness to Pip. I love both Walker's and Nan's reactions to when Pip is trying to dig himself out of the hole, to lessen their suspicions about his relationship with Ned. "I was just somebody he found it easy to talk to." They are amazed, stunned, that the great silent one found it easy to talk to anybody! (Eileen) When did Ned douse himself with water (famously pulling the tap off in the matinee)? Second act after hyperventilating when Theo rides him hard about his own lack of talent. (Eileen) Speaking of Walker, did anyone else sense the irony of this passage?...a walker I've gotten accustomed to listening hard to the audience at this point for some sign of recognition. Actually, all the names mean something (uh oh, she's starting again...) but I don't know about Lina. Greenberg has confirmed this in an interview in case anyone needs authoritative references. ;-)

(Karen), I love both Walker's and Nan's reactions to when Pip is trying to dig himself out of the hole, to lessen their suspicions about his relationship with Ned. "I was just somebody he found it easy to talk to." They are amazed, stunned, that the great silent one found it easy to talk to anybody! Yes, and why did he find it so easy to converse with Pip? To Ned he was the closest thing to Theo. Ned and Theo�s relationship was cut short by Theo�s death. We know that Ned did not like or care for children, and Nan and Walker suffered from it. Lina and Theo�s relationship was also unresolved. Lina and Theo were a couple and then Theo runs off when he sees Ned and Lina only to go sit in the park and meet his future wife (Theo�s mother). What if Lina were in love with Theo and only considered Ned a trist? Theo meets someone else, Ned is willing to marry her and she needs that security. �The beginning of error.� She marries Ned but is resentful and unhappy which makes her slightly mad, not close to her children and�she takes a flight of fancy through some glass. (fenestration, the repetitive underlying theme). In Walker's mind, having the house would help him understand his father (the father who didn't act like a father). Remember his explanation to Nan about finding this apartment/office: "The place is so nothing. I couldn't imagine why he'd kept it. I paced the floor for two days, screaming at the walls: 'Speak! Speak!' It was infuriating." And when the journal spoke, in the end, he burned it. Apart from the Italy remark how did you manage when he brings up Jane Austen?

Apart from the Italy remark how did you manage when he brings up Jane Austen? About 40 women in the audience took deep breaths to stifle chuckles:-) Same with removal of wet sweater!!

Walker is reacting to a phrase in the journal that changes how he sees things; to the effect that "I (Ned) took everything from him (Theo)". What goes into that list of "everything" as Act II is written? Has it occurred to anyone that at the end of Act I, it is Pip who has "taken everything"...the house, Walker's father's acknowledgement, even approval, his sister's affection, all in that vague, unintentional way. Now Walker is in the position that Theo was.

--Karen-- I'd be very interested in seeing your "Cliff's notes" on this one. Please send them to me...

(KJArt), Walker is reacting to a phrase in the journal that changes how he sees things; to the effect that "I (Ned) took everything from him (Theo)". What goes into that list of "everything" as Act II is written? In Act II I believe Ned took everything when he ends up with Lina. The house and the fame came much later. Has it occurred to anyone that at the end of Act I, it is Pip who has "taken everything"...the house, Walker's father's acknowledgement, even approval, his sister's affection, all in that vague, unintentional way. Now Walker is in the position that Theo was. Please elaborate KJArt, in what way is Walker in the same position? Pip was just as surprised as W and N when he heard the house was left to him, why he even wants to give the house to Walker. Pip doesn't like the house. Ironically Pip and Nan might have left each other for fear of Ned's reaction to their relationship.

Eileen, you asked about Trimalchian earlier. This is the explanation Moon provided: The word is Trimalci�nico, it comes from Trimalcione, the character in Satyricon by Petronio. Trimalcione gives a huge banquet: grandiose, sumptuos, spectacular. The word is associated with banquets. It was just a salad!!

(KJArt), Walker is reacting to a phrase in the journal that changes how he sees things; to the effect that "I (Ned) took everything from him (Theo)". What goes into that list of "everything" as Act II is written? (Moon) In Act II I believe Ned took everything when he ends up with Lina. The house and the fame came much later. Indeed, Ned took Lina from Theo (BTW, was that pronounced Lee-na or Line-a?) but he also came up with the design for the house. Theo was supposed to be the genius. Theo went away with the specific purpose to develop an original idea; he returns to find his girlfriend has moved on and his partner has "scooped" him on a design. So in a way, Ned has taken Theo's genius. The world at large doesn't know which partner came up with the idea, but Ned and Theo (and Lina) know. (Moon) Ironically Pip and Nan might have left each other for fear of Ned's reaction to their relationship. They might have been more concerned about Walker's knowledge: PIP: -but I didn't do it. And Walker is great, I mean, don't get me wrong, Walker is great. He's great. Sometimes I question Walker's greatness, but he's great...and he's in so much pain-but to call me things like that in front of all the wood and the leather and the lawyer-it's really inexcusable, it's incorrigible. And you can't say anything to him. You can't scream at him, you can't disapprove of him, you can't even, you know, mildly remonstrate with him because he's in so much pain. NAN: Yes PIP: I mean, has there ever been a time when he wasn't in so much pain? NAN: No. PIP: No, I mean, I remember when we were ten, not doing things because he was in so much pain. I connected everything to it: "I better not eat that baloney sandwich, Walker is in so much pain." I mean, a ten-year-old boy shouldn't be so emotionally, whatever, fastidious about another ten-year-old boy's feelings, but, with him... NAN: I know. PIP: There comes a time, Nan, there just comes a point when you have to say: enough, I don't care that you're in so much pain, you cannot behave like this any longer. (Beat) But you can't because he's in so much pain. Walker needed help (the psychological kind) as a child and never received it. Now he's paying the price. He's scared s**tless and tries, unsuccessfully, to cover it up. (Moon) She marries Ned but is resentful and unhappy which makes her slightly mad IMO her madness goes way beyond this. She was probably always sick (schizophrenic?) and her condition eventually became acute. Now Walker is in the position that Theo was. Good point. Thanks for the info on Trimalchian, Karen.

Now Walker is in the position that Theo was. Good point. Please explain, Eileen, I do not see it.

Trimalchian Whoever said this play was pretentious (Elena?) was right. Or rather Walker was. **** I still like it....but it's hard work.

Trimalchian (Evelyn) Whoever said this play was pretentious was right. Or rather Walker was. Lina (pronounced line-a, Eileen) made the comment about the salad Ned prepared. But doesn't that tell you something about what Greenberg is doing? What kind of people they are and the world in which they live. As Lina says to Ned after the caterwauling scene: "Everybody I've met in this city is a genius. And the ones that aren't are connoisseurs." (huge laugh) What a brilliant putdown on the tony people of the town.

(KJArt) Now Walker is in the position that Theo was. (Eileen) Good point. (Moon) Please explain, Eileen, I do not see it. KJ's initial comment concerned the perception that Ned took everything from Theo (Lina, etc.). Now Walker believes Pip has taken everything from him (father's attention/?affection, the house, etc.). That's my interpretation of KJ's observation.

(Moon) Yes, and why did he find it so easy to converse with Pip? To Ned he was the closest thing to Theo. However, it could just be that Ned was able to converse easily with Pip because he was now an adult. Ned said, "I just...n-never know what to say to them." He's afraid of them because of their candor and ability to humiliate him and says (with all candor) that they are intensely boring. (More big laughs as most of the audience can definitely relate to the tedious examples.) Ned couldn't establish that kind of relationship with his own children because they were irreversibly harmed. (Moon) What if Lina were in love with Theo and only considered Ned a tryst? One of the bigger themes of this play is the role of destiny. Lina probably thought herself in love with Theo or was (past tense); however, she couldn't make herself in the kind of person Theo needed. He was an ambitious man, hell bent on fame and fortune and he was going to do it. He was capable of doing it. He was a follower of Nietzsche. At the very end Ned questions Lina about what Theo is going to do and she says, "He's a handsome young man in Manhattan, something will happen to him." It does. I particularly liked Ned's and Lina's comments about "running into each other" on that day. They were fated to hook up together. But fate doesn't always mean a happy ending, does it? See Oedipus. ;-) (Evelyn) About 40 women in the audience took deep breaths to stifle chuckles:-) Same with removal of wet sweater!! Re sweater: No, I think the sound was major disappointment! ;-) (KJArt) Has it occurred to anyone that at the end of Act I, it is Pip who has "taken everything"...in that vague, unintentional way. That's a very interesting observation, KJ, and I can see it. (Moon) In Act II I believe Ned took everything when he ends up with Lina. The house and the fame came much later. But Ned wrote that phrase in his journal just after Theo died. The world didn't know that Theo had lost his genius (did he ever have it?). That was strictly among Ned, Theo and Lina. (Eileen) So in a way, Ned has taken Theo's genius. Did he ever really have genius? What did you make of this then: "Theo's been a little st-stalled since school..." Makes me wonder what has really been going on. (Eileen) Walker needed help (the psychological kind) as a child and never received it. Now he's paying the price. He's scared s**tless and tries, unsuccessfully, to cover it up. Notice that he specifically mentions Walker as a 10 year old child (post-mother-through-the-plate-glass-window incident.) FYI, Eileen (and anyone else vaguely interested) this scene was incredibly funny (despite the serious content) and milked for maximum laughs by the Chicago actor. He had a cadence in his voice, so that by the last "he's in so much pain" the audience can't hold it in. This is Pip's biggest and best scene-stealing scene and the Chicago actor was far better than David Morrissey (he was adequate). (Eileen) IMO her madness goes way beyond this. She was probably always sick (schizophrenic?) and her condition eventually became acute. Didn't someone (Nan??) say it might have been mistaken for being southern? The cutsey view of southerners as being eccentric or mad promulgated by southern writers from Faulker to Tennessee Williams to Walker Percy to Carson McCullers ad nauseam.

(Karen) Did he ever really have genius? No, he didn't. He couldn't come up with an original thought. Apparently others believed he was (perhaps due to early success in school, looks, personality vs. Ned). When Ned comes up with the house idea (particularly in the wake of Theo's failure), it becomes glaringly obvious who the genius is. Both Ned and Theo have known all along. But this begs the question: Why were Ned's subsequent projects less successful? Guilt? (Sorry, we digress from the topic of Walker). Thanks for the info on how the "pain" scene was played. How were Walker's lines "Theo dying, Theo dying, Theo dead" and "you must publish?" (the latter in response to Pip's "do the f**king math" view of Oedipus) received?

( Karen), Re sweater: No, I think the sound was major disappointment! ;-) Why Karen? The cutsey view of southerners as being eccentric or mad promulgated by southern writers from Faulker to Tennessee Williams to Walker Percy to Carson McCullers ad nauseam. I love this! Very good point. Did he ever really have genius? What did you make of this then: "Theo's been a little st-stalled since school..." Makes me wonder what has really been going on. But Theo was being interviewed at the Plaza remember, he must have done something right. But doesn't that tell you something about what Greenberg is doing? What kind of people they are and the world in which they live. As Lina says to Ned after the caterwauling scene: "Everybody I've met in this city is a genius. And the ones that aren't are connoisseurs." (huge laugh) What a brilliant putdown on the tony people of the town. It�s a put down and a compliment at the same time, and it works very well. :-D Can you imagine Greenberg in company with plebeians? I suspect not.

Let's see now, "Theo dying, Theo dying, Theo dead" Colin reads them to Nan as if imparting words of major significance. He has to because he will build to his own crescendo during the paragraph starting with "Reconstruct along with me this moment." He is at his emotional peak for "April 3rd to April 5th: Three days of rain." A weather report. A fucking weather report! As the stage directions indicate, he quiets down after that. Colin did it so well. I loved when he got all worked up. "you must publish" One of my all-time favorites!! There is initial amazement at Pip's inane conclusion about doing the math (big laugh). Those lines are said dripping with sarcasm and amusement at his own ability to manipulate Pip so easily. He's egging him on. Right after that Pip realizes that he is being taunted ("I walked right into--"). What do others think?

(Eileen), Why were Ned's subsequent projects less successful? Maybe in his mind only because the house was such a hard project to conceive. There are many of his buildings around town and abroad. BTW, how many of you are waiting for the opportunity to use the word Trimalchian in conversation? (heehee)

Disappointment? Because that's all he took off! ;-)

(Moon Dreams)Lina and Theo�s relationship was also unresolved. Lina and Theo were a couple and then Theo runs off when he sees Ned and Lina only to go sit in the park and meet his future wife I don't think seeing Ned and Lina really registered on Theo. His only concern was that he'd "brought nothing back", that his genius had let him down. Lina didn't really mean much to him at that moment. (Moon Dreams)And when the journal spoke, in the end, he burned it. Ah, but again: he didn't understand the journal. At the end, I felt sorry for him, because "we" understood and "he" never would. (Karen)Ned said, "I just...n-never know what to say to them." He's afraid of them because of their candor and ability to humiliate him and says (with all candor) that they are intensely boring. Walker doesn't like children either. To him they are all alike (twins) (Evelyn) About 40 women in the audience took deep breaths to stifle chuckles:-) Same with removal of wet sweater!! (Karen)No, I think the sound was major disappointment! ;-)...Because that's all he took off! ;-) Yes! He wore the sweater over a white shirt (T-shirt? I don't remember)and the shirt stayed on. THe sweater was (un)buttoned in front, so there wasn't even the beautiful stretching movement of taking it off over his head :-( (Karen)...a cadence in his voice, so that by the last "he's in so much pain" the audience can't hold it in. This is Pip's biggest and best scene-stealing scene Shakesperean, I thought: "For Brutus is an honourable man" (Eileen)obvious who the genius is. Both Ned and Theo have known all along. No, I don't think so. At least not Theo, to him it came as a terrible surprise. Ned might have known, but been too shy to aknowledge it (even to himself?) (Eileen)But this begs the question: Why were Ned's subsequent projects less successful? Guilt? Perhaps no special reason? Most people who make a masterpiece never can math it again. (Moon Dreams)But Theo was being interviewed at the Plaza remember, he must have done something right. They were partners. "They" had done something right, but Theo would be the natural interviewee. (Karen)"you must publish" One of my all-time favorites!! There is initial amazement at Pip's inane conclusion about doing the math (big laugh). Why inane? I can see his point. Most tragedies don't make sense. I know, we do not love them for their content's sense but for their form's beauty. I do too, of course. But I can look at them dispassionately as well as passionately, and and Pip is a very pragmatical guy. Not an antiques collector, you may be sure! (Moon Dreams)BTW, how many of you are waiting for the opportunity to use the word Trimalchian in conversation? (heehee) Trimalchion (Greek name) was also a nouveau riche type, as opposed to Lucullus, also known for his lavish banquets but who was a (real) Roman aristocrat.;-P

(Gi) Ah, but again: he didn't understand the journal. At the end, I felt sorry for him, because "we" understood and "he" never would. I can't feel too sorry for him because, when Nan questions his conclusions, he says "I want it to be." Not that its correct, but it's the only conclusion that makes any sense to him. One can't get at the truth when one's ego is in the way. ;-) (Gi) Why inane? I can see his point. Most tragedies don't make sense. Only from the standpoint that Pip oversimplifies a very complex story as if life were that simple. Agreed, he is a very pragmatic guy, but he doesn't think anything is complex. It doesn't always work out that way.

Yes, luculliano, a Lucullan banquet (a sumptuous dinner). (Just the thing I'm planning for your bridal shower Gi):-D

Lucullan is used more frequently than Trimalchian. But I'm sure Greenberg knew that.;-)

(KJArt) Has it occurred to anyone that at the end of Act I, it is Pip who has "taken everything"...in that vague, unintentional way. (Karen)That's a very interesting observation, KJ, and I can see it. I think that is a brilliant conclusion and one that Greenberg hid under the stairs.It all makes sense from that premise. ** Yes, Karen...the line "...you must publish" by Walker was terrific as deliver by Colin..he has great comedic timing.

What keeps nagging at me is the attempt to reconstruct the beginning of the Theo/Ned relationship. Remember, Theo kept accusing Ned of "running away" or "evasion", so Walker is being true to form. And yet, I believe the basis of this relationship is that Ned was trying to be very supportive of Theo's ambition ("he-he...wants things...I...I...n-never...much. Theo wants"), and VERY protective of his ego, of his confidence in the illusion of his own genius. This is probably out of gratitude for Theo's bef iending him and taking him out of his own horrible environment("I l-left home to get away from people...who have no g-grace, People who are r-randomly cruel...") which makes Theo feel the protective one ("You had no other friends, I took you in--"). Ned merely perpetuates this illusion, too. Walker believed the complete opposite of his father's background. He thought that the parents had commissioned the house "because, I guess, they loved him so much..." whereas Ned reveals that they did it "as a way of making up." Thus that arch of "guilt", I think. But Theo was a natural self-promoter, a PR man, and Ned just let him drift that way, hoping, I suppose, that EVENTUALLY Theo would come up with something that would, at last, manifest Theo's illusion of greatness. Only Theo himself finally realized it was an illusion, which shattered Ned. Ned felt he had failed to protect him, I think. Ned was too diffident to push his own ideas. Even when he had to finally produce something, he wanted to "hire someone" rather than be the one to show up Theo, shatter him further. But Lina insisted. I'm sure their whole life Ned did everything to push the appearance of an equal partnership, but even after Theo died, one can see why Ned felt he had taken "everything" away from Theo.

(KJArt), I'm sure their whole life Ned did everything to push the appearance of an equal partnership, but even after Theo died, one can see why Ned felt he had taken "everything" away from Theo. And therefore left the house to Pip as a way to give "something" back. Walker believed the complete opposite of his father's background. He thought that the parents had commissioned the house "because, I guess, they loved him so much..." whereas Ned reveals that they did it "as a way of making up." Thus that arch of "guilt", I think. And this tells us once again how little they really know of each other. The windows are opaque when they should be clear (fenestration strikes again). In fact, as Walker says, "All the glass, the house is a prism." We don't see clearly through a prism, and we don't see these characters clearly either.

Well, Walker believed that if he had the house it could at last "speak to" him of his father. He believed that because the house was beautiful, "it could only been designed by someone who was happy" (true, true), and he wanted a taste of that happiness. But as soon as he believed the house was Theo's, he didn't want it any more.

"All the glass, the house is a prism." We don't see clearly through a prism, and we don't see these characters clearly either. Are we slowly getting to realize that that house is a microcosm of their lives? Is this what the playwright wanted us to see? Does the Janeway House stand for something else besides an edifice that Ned and Theo designed? ***** And taking it further....is there a Janeway House in each of our lives? Maybe," I'm reaching for it....."

(KJArt)as soon as he believed the house was Theo's, he didn't want it any more. Hadn't thought of that one.Humm!

(KJArt) What keeps nagging at me is the attempt to reconstruct the beginning of the Theo/Ned relationship. They sound codependent to me. Ned needs Theo on a personal level for friendship and professionally because Theo's a "people person." Theo needs Ned's loyalty and dependence. (Eileen)obvious who the genius is. Both Ned and Theo have known all along. (Gi)No, I don't think so. At least not Theo, to him it came as a terrible surprise I see your point Gi, but stick with the belief that on some level Theo knew. IMO it's one of the reasons he's so dependent on Ned--to reinforce the illusion. (Moon) We don't see clearly through a prism, and we don't see these characters clearly either. Great point, Moon. And they certainly don't see eachother clearly! (Evelyn) Yes, Karen...the line "...you must publish" by Walker was terrific as deliver by Colin..he has great comedic timing. As soon as I read it, I thought this was the most overtly funny line in the play. I knew ODB would nail it!

( Evelyn), Are we slowly getting to realize that that house is a microcosm of their lives? Is this what the playwright wanted us to see? Does the Janeway House stand for something else besides an edifice that Ned and Theo designed? Yes! To all three questions, and, we are working our way through it rather nicely, don't you think?

Throughout most of Act I, we see Walker asking for the house, begging for the house, (when given to Pip) mourning for the house. Nan, remember, asked him directly "you hated him...why do you want his house?". Walker's reply showed the many things the house stood for, as far as he was concerned: He wanted a place of his own, he wanted to stop being what Ned had always wanted to be--a flaneur. He believed the house held for him security and safety...he was terrified of his mother's legacy; he didn't want to "end badly", he didn't want to be a "burden" on the ones he loved (BTW, who ARE the ones he loved??) and he wouldn't be that if he had that place of his own. Notice when he and Nan walked out how he wanted the family to come, to be there, to visit. But mostly I think he wanted the house to be his last chance to connect with a father who evidently rejected him (at least ignored him), who never spoke--he wanted the house to speak to him the way Ned couldn't (or didn't). And this father, at the last, denied him even this last chance to connect, to be sane, to have a center, to have his own place (to hide?), to have his fears soothed. This father gave the house to Pip instead. What a terrible loss!!--until he believed the house was not of Ned after all. What a wonderful relief!! Remember...he wanted the interpretation to be that way. Maybe he burned the book to make sure it stayed that way...his father hadn't rejected him after all.

(Evelyn) Yes, Karen...the line "...you must publish" by Walker was terrific as deliver by Colin..he has great comedic timing. (Eileen)As soon as I read it, I thought this was the most overtly funny line in the play. I knew ODB would nail it And did he ever... sitting on a stool and waving those gorgeous hands around. ( I don't think he is a vane actor....but I think he knows he has beautiful hands because he uses them so much..)

vain!, Evelyn, vain!

(KJArt) Remember...he wanted the interpretation to be that way. Maybe he burned the book to make sure it stayed that way...his father hadn't rejected him after all. Yes, that interpretation was the only one he could accept, but I don't think that's why he burned the book. He said he felt like Hedda Gabler at that moment. There was a devilish look in Colin's eyes as he said the line. He's striking back; he's destroying something that meant a great deal to his father. It's revenge, pure and simple. (KJArt) He wanted a place of his own, he wanted to stop being what Ned had always wanted to be--a flaneur. Doesn't it make you wonder why Ned, who hadn't the courage to be a flaneur himself, got married. His marriage was doomed because he admired a rootless life. It may not have been just Lina's madness. Ned may not have been suited to being married. (BTW, who ARE the ones he loved??) Nan is one, but yes...who are they? ;-) Great observations, KJ.

( Evelyn)Does the Janeway House stand for something else besides an edifice that Ned and Theo designed? I'm sure it is, but "a microcosm of their lives" is perhaps too much :-) ( Evelyn)I don't think he is a vane actor....but I think he knows he has beautiful hands because he uses them so much.. Not necessarily ;-)He just knows that real people use their hands, don't just stand there and throw words out of their mouths. Perhaps he became more conscious of it since he's been consorting with italians... BTW, one thing that nagged me was that EMcG kept her hands in her raincoat's pockets although evidently using them too. (Karen)Doesn't it make you wonder why Ned, who hadn't the courage to be a flaneur himself, got married. His marriage was doomed because he admired a rootless life. It may not have been just Lina's madness. Ned may not have been suited to being married. Why do you think the marriage was doomed? I didn't think it was, apart from the fact that Lina went insane, and that didn't necessarily have much to do with Ned. Who is Hedda Gabler?

(Gi) Who is Hedda Gabler? From my own little Cliffs Notes: Ibsen heroine who is selfish and willful, whose unbridled desire to dominate and destroy others brings death to herself. L�vborg, Hedda's castoff lover, is inspired by another woman (Thea) to write a book and becomes famous. He writes another manuscript with Thea's help and inspiration which Hedda ultimately burns. "I am burning your child."

( Evelyn)I don't think he is a vane actor....but I think he knows he has beautiful hands because he uses them so much.. (Gi),Not necessarily ;-)He just knows that real people use their hands, don't just stand there and throw words out of their mouths. Perhaps he became more conscious of it since he's been consorting with italians... I agree Gi, not a very British thing to do. :-D ( Evelyn)Does the Janeway House stand for something else besides an edifice that Ned and Theo designed? I'm sure it is, but "a microcosm of their lives" is perhaps too much :-) But Greenberg is too much himself. Do not put it past him. Ned loves Lina, that is why he marries her. We do not see other examples of his being a flaneur. It is just talk. Walker on the other hand is. His wanting the house meant a commitment to change. His burning the book ultimately keeps him as he was. His using the book as a memorial at the end was in contrast to his lighting the candle at his father s grave in the beginning when the candle would not light because of the rain. (beat) I enjoyed your observations too KJArt.

(KJArt)...vain!, Evelyn, vain! Thank you, KJArt:-) I thought it looked odd!! ***** Rain, rain, rain,.....rain at the cemetery,rain at the house.... What's with all this rain, anyway!! And did the candle not light at the cemetery because of the rain...or the father's ultimate rejection of poor Walker. Thank you KJArt for bringing the discussion of the play to another level.

What's with all this rain, anyway!! 1. The title. 2. Can not see clearly through it (fenestration once again). 3. Susie Wong. The candle did not light at the cemetary because of the rain. The memorial was not to happen until the end when he burns the journal and finally cuts off any connection left to his father.

( Evelyn) Are we slowly getting to realize that that house is a microcosm of their lives? I don't know if it's a microcosm--perhaps symbol is a better word? (Forgive me, it's been a looong time since my last Lit class). (KJArt) Maybe he burned the book to make sure it stayed that way...his father hadn't rejected him after all. (Karen) He's striking back; he's destroying something that meant a great deal to his father. It's revenge, pure and simple. Each of these observations make sense. Can't it be both? Walker seeks revenge since anger is easier to deal with than rejection, but both rejection and anger motivate the behavior. (Karen) Doesn't it make you wonder why Ned, who hadn't the courage to be a flaneur himself, got married? ...And named his only son, his heir, his legacy--Walker. "Flaneur Janeway" just doesn't have a ring to it! By the time baby Walker came along, Ned made peace with the fact he wasn't going to be the flaneur of his dreams and passed the wish onto his son. I agree with Gi: I think Lina's madness (and how they didn't deal with it) pushed this family from dysfunctional to seriously dysfunctional. Thanks for the Cliffs Notes, Karen. I missed much more than I thought (I blew that 'IRT' joke, for sure! Had nothing whatsoever to do with NYC as I hang my head in embarassment).

Evelyn, from where did you acquire the knowledge that ODB "has a propensity to trip?" His own observation in an interview, perhaps? Or someone else's on a set? I like the way he can add this little catch in motion for comedic purposes...(Ex: Valmont), but I wasn't aware he had this weakness in real life.

Oh, and it is NOT a Darcy-stride as you and others often describe (with appropriate delighted reactions appended to the notation...) It is a Firthian-stride which he has made an attribute of the Darcy character as well as with several other characters (including Walker). Colin does not walk like Darcy--Darcy walks like Colin!! (So does Walker...Strange coincidence, what?!)

Eileen, you once asked a question way back when which I believe was not satisfactorily covered. To wit: Why were Ned's subsequent projects less successful? Even Walker (I think)(or was it Pip?) remarks that in the later years he just coasted. I don't think this was a conscious attempt by Ned to preserve Theo's "legend" by not overshadowing him. Theo was the one who "wanted things", i.e. was ambitious for fame and success. Ned didn't. I think with Theo around to impel him, he pushed his own creativity (and probably Theo's as well), but once the goad that was Theo was removed, I think Ned just slipped back into living life the way he wanted...he let his young proteges do the sweating after fame and fortune (but never as well as he had...)

(Moon) And therefore left the house to Pip as a way to give "something" back. Like his reputation? If Walker believed that Theo was the creative genius behind Janeway House, it is likely others would as well and, in that way, Ned gave Theo the fame he desired. (KJArt) Walker believed that if he had the house it could at last "speak to" him of his father...But as soon as he believed the house was Theo's, he didn't want it any more. Right, why would he want it? It wasn't his father's; it served no purpose for him. (Evelyn) Are we slowly getting to realize that that house is a microcosm of their lives? I'd agree that it is a symbol of something. The aspect of fenestration and prisms is quite apt, but what about the other characteristics mentioned by Nan and Walker? The alternating use of solids and voids. Then the mention of light. Rooms that change like liquid. What do these all mean? I'm clueless. :( Could the house be Ned? or people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones? (couldn't resist) ;-D (Gi) Why do you think the marriage was doomed? I didn't think it was, apart from the fact that Lina went insane, and that didn't necessarily have much to do with Ned. Maybe her insanity was hastened by the realization that she shouldn't have married Ned when she really loved Theo? (Gasp! How could anyone prefer David Morrissey to Colin?) That hadn't occurred to me until I saw it in the London reviews. I'm not sure it can be substantiated by the text either, but I thought I'd mention it. ;-) Lina and Theo had a symbiotic relationship, like Theo and Ned. Could two codependents (codependent on a third party) be happy together, compounded by the fact that one wished e could be free to roam the world? You didn't think it odd that neither of the children could see any traces of a loving marriage? Lina's hospitalization occurred when Nan was 10. At that age, she should have some recollection of earlier, happier, more normal days. Lina wasn't always catatonic and rocking soundlessly before throwing herself through plate-glass windows (glass again??). Remember she said she was a nonstop talker. Why didn't she tell her "future" drinking partner about herself and her dad? Lina is a big missing piece in my puzzle. I really feel that, if we knew what she represented, we'd understand what happened. Lina, Carolina, southern state, what??? It's killing me! (Moon) 3. Susie Wong. Don't you just love it? The boy cloud and the girl cloud. I cannot believe how it all just works so beautifully. (Eileen) I missed much more than I thought Don't be embarrassed. I didn't just jot these down.. It took a lot of work. I had to turn into Sherlock Holmes Do you think "The World of Suzie Wong" can be found at Blockbusters?! All those writers and philosophers had to mean something. And I think they do. Much more on this later.

(KJArt)Evelyn, from where did you acquire the knowledge that ODB "has a propensity to trip?" "I read somewhere"... "Honestly"...that he tripped up the stairs in Valmont and in P&P going up the stairs in Rosings. I don't know about this propensity personally...(Do you think he would purposely trip in a movie scene?) He does have big feet though. (KJArt)Oh, and it is NOT a Darcy-stride as you and others often describe..... It is a Firthian-stride which he has made an attribute of the Darcy character as well as with several other characters (including Walker). I know that. Hey, I even recognized that stride on Earlham Street on a dark rainy night...across the street from the theatre!! The reason I call it a Darcy -stride is because P&P is the first film I ever saw him in. Actually, if one wishes to be totally accurate ...one could call it "St. Louis swagger"!!!:-)

(Karen) Lina is a big missing piece in my puzzle. So true, so true. I, too, wondered why Nan is pretty much ignorant of how her Dad and Mom got together...both children refer to the marriage as something that was "settled" on when all other options expired... Even Lina maybe felt that way, but I don't think because of affection. She thought it was "tragic" when Ned revealed that there was no "secret" to the city, but she ultimately responds: "Still...I want something...I suppose I'll marry Theo and that will be something--" and when Ned asks (sharply) "is that happening?", she replies, "Nobody ever says anything, but...what else?" She doesn't sound terribly enthused about it...I think she was "settling" for Theo, until she realized how mitten Ned was for her. Therefore I don't believe she was really ever in love with Theo, and never really sounded like she was suffering for his loss. The breakup of the marriage with Ned came, I think simply because after Walker is born: "my father became spectacularly successful, and his partner died shockingly young and my mother became increasingly mad..." My guess is that by the time the children were old enough to talk to, Lina was already beyond the pale, sanity-wise. Her glaringly insane behavior in the hallway was being seemingly ignored by the rest of the family--how long had it been going on and how intensely? Schizophrenia is of en a progressive condition which can have remissions and relapses. What kind of model did these children have of what normality was supposed to be? Unless there is intersession by, say grandparents or professional caretakers (which were not mentioned), it is a wonder that either of them could grow up into an even remote copy of normal adulthood ( and I think Walker obviously didn't...). But through all of this, I don't the destruction of the marriage had anything to do with Theo. His death may have tr ggered even further withdrawal behavior in Lina, but can't be said to have "caused" it. The divorce was simply a response to Lina's complete separation from reality and became necessary. I have to admit that when she and Theo were still going together, she had come to know him very well...and never suffered the guilt pangs Ned did when she shifted allegiances...

(KJArt).... intersession intercession, Karen J, intercession..... '-)

I'm way behind this discussion and will never catch up. It's been asked how we in the audience felt when Jane Austen and Italy were mentioned. What gave me a thrill was hearing Colin as Walker says to Nan, "Would youplease, please, please just... hug me." Shades of Paul Ashworth. See, KJ, we don't see Darcy in everything. ;-) I don't think Walker hated his father as he seems to do and as his sister says he did. I think he was desperate to understand him. He obviously has studied architecture, perhaps as a key to understand Ned? I agree with others who've said by reading the passage in the journal that Ned has taken everything from Theo, that he thinks he now understands his father. This is what "I want it to be". It's an agreeable revelation to him. He doesn't want to know more. He burns the book then ..."a selfish and ilfull act" as Karen says. IMO it's not out of revenge, though. There's no need for revenge anymore...he found (he thinks) what he needed to know and there is (mis)understanding and forgiveness. Ironic that it is Nan who at first wants to know nothing of what is in the journal but when Walker starts to burn it, wails "Now we'll never know anything." There are signs of Lina's problems in the play. She wakes to a "brown study". She's gloomy sometimes and opaque. (Fenestration again, Moon?). I doubt the children ever knew a mother who could pass for normal. I feel sorriest for Lina. She's so bright and witty. She's responsible for Ned's success. Her scene where she charts Ned's "flight path" is loving and poignant. But you see the desperation and yearning. Was she ever happy? I like Gi's (?) take on Theo as the PR man. Karen said he was hell bent on fame and fortune. He found it but not in the way he expected though only he, Ned and Lina knew it. His wife had an idealized vision of him...doubt she ever knew what the true roles in the firm really were. I like Greenberg's joke on us in the Pip monologue - his mother liked to get caught up in a play where you could never remember the plot of where the girl got caught in the rain and had to put on the man's bathrobe and they sort of did a little dance around each other and fell in love. Then in Act 2, Lina's coquettish line to Ned when she goes to put on a robe after getting caught in the rain, I've seen this scene before. The little dance Lina and Ned did around each other then was superb.

I have so enjoyed your discussions here and wish I had the time to join in regularly at the moment. You have brought it all back for me, I can see, hear and smell it all over again. I wish I could add "touch " to that list!!!

Moon, tried to email you about 3DOR last week, but it was returned several times.

Lizza, my DH does not know about my alter-ego. I have emailed you and hopefully will receive that most desired 3DOR info. Thanks. :-)

(Evelyn) Are we slowly getting to realize that that house is a microcosm of their lives? ( Karen), I'd agree that it is a symbol of something. The aspect of fenestration and prisms is quite apt, but what about the other characteristics mentioned by Nan and Walker? The alternating use of solids and voids. Then the mention of light. Rooms that change like liquid. What do these all mean? I'm clueless. :( One can�t see through solids. Voids in one�s life can block the understanding of oneself. They are metaphors for thecharacters themselves. We need the missing pieces (all the solids), to fully understand the whole(structure). Rooms that change like liquid are never quite the same, or never what they seem. Ned, Lina and Theo are never quite what they seem. Lina and Theo had a symbiotic relationship, like Theo and Ned. Could two codependents (codependent on a third party) be happy together, compounded by the fact that one wished e could be free to roam the world? Codependents in a building is a solid, free to roam the world is a liquid. Lina is a big missing piece in my puzzle. I really feel that, if we knew what she represented, we'd understand what happened. It may be Greenberg is using her as a Deus-Ex-Machina. In that case, we really wouldn�t need to know. :-) Lina, Carolina, southern state, what??? I like the Carolina idea, especially since we know it was pronounced. All those writers and philosophers had to mean something. And I think they do. They make us understand the characters. Hegel and Heidiger are very �heavy�. Ibsen, I think he admires. Heide, you and Paul A. can�t get him out of your mind? :-) Evelyn, I love his stride too, it matches his horsemanship. (sigh*)

Lizza, your email came back. How can I contact you?

(KJArt) [Lina] thought it was "tragic" when Ned revealed that there was no "secret" to the city Speaking of which...what to you all make of Walker's aversion to the city? Is it that no city dweller can really have roots? (KJArt) The breakup of the marriage with Ned came, I think simply because after Walker is born: "my father became spectacularly successful, and his partner died shockingly young and my mother became increasingly mad..." Let's not forget that Lina loved to drink and Ned may have withdrawn even more with some feelings of guilt at Theo's death. (Heide) "Would you please, please, please ... That line should be required for every part Colin plays! ;-D (Heide) Ironic that it is Nan who at first wants to know nothing of what is in the journal but when Walker starts to burn it, wails "Now we'll never know anything." I too found it very strange that Nan was so adamant about not reading journal. Having personally gone through lots of family papers, I can't understand this at all. Irrational. What is she afraid of finding out? (Heide) I like Greenberg's joke on us in the Pip monologue - his mother liked to get caught up in a play where you could never remember the plot of where the girl got caught in the rain and had to put on the man's bathrobe and they sort of did a little dance around each other and fell in love. Then in Act 2, Lina's coquettish line to Ned when she goes to put on a robe after getting caught in the rain, I've seen this scene before. The little dance Lina and Ned did around each other then was super . I loved that foreshadowing as well. (Lizza) You have brought it all back for me, I can see, hear and smell it all over again. I wish I could add "touch " to that list!!! Tell us your favorite parts then. Fighting the urge to reach out and touch him a mere inches away took every fiber of my being. Besides, I didn't fancy getting hauled off to jail and embarrassing all of you!! ;-) (Karen) All those writers and philosophers had to mean something. And I think they do. (Moon) They make us understand the characters. Actually, they helped me understand what the play was about. The search for truth. Each developed his own form of logic (or structure/architecture) for getting at the truth and for understanding relationships. Their individual methods and conclusions matter not, but I think it ties everything together. The one exception: La Rochefoucauld. His writings go right to the heart of this play.

Thanks Karen!!!!

(Karen) what to you all make of Walker's aversion to the city Perhaps another rejection of his father? His father (we assume) saddled him with the name Walker taken from flaneur..a wanderer through the city. And when I say "saddled", I mean that many of the connotations we find in this name are negative in the play. The saddest of all is one of the definitions of flaneur Ned gives Lina: "His life has no pattern...just traffic...and no hope-" Is it that no city dweller can really have roots? Even a weed growing through the cracks of a city sidewalk has strong roots.

Ladies, such incredible insights, I'm really enjoying this discussion, and Karen, please pass on the cliff notes, there are so many literary references in the play... (Heide) The saddest of all is one of the definitions of flaneur Ned gives Lina: "His life has no pattern...just traffic...and no hope-" But at the same time, it is what Ned would wish for someone better than himself. "I think it would be the best thing! To be this...vegabond prince..." By naming his son Walker, it's Ned's wish that his son would have the strength of character he lacks, a wanderer is never loney. So I would assume that Ned is rather loney. I do have one question, during the first act, all three characters mention food, and how hungry they are, and ask each other, "Did you ever eat?"...but somehow they never manage to eat (except when Nan munched on something from her purse), is Greenberg communicating a deeper sense of hunger here?

(Karen) what to you all make of Walker's aversion to the city WALKER: It had become-the filth of it-the chaos of it-it just happened. So I left. He's not averted to the city, but to his life. He flees. I think he actually likes big cities, flanuer that he is: WALKER: What could ever possibly happen to you on a street in Boston? You might, what, run into a cleric and repent something? Boston is only a city if you're a swan boat. I also enjoyed the running joke about the restaurant/art gallery/cigar store across the street. (Karen) You didn't think it odd that neither of the children could see any traces of a loving marriage? Both Walker and Nan are quite blase about why their parents married: WALKER: They married because by 1960 they had reached a certain age and they were the last ones left in the room. NAN: My parents married because it was 1960 and one had to and they were there. And I don't think that's a contemptible thing-for people who have reached a certain age and never found anything better. These passages come from different places in the play yet they're almost identical. (KJArt) both children refer to the marriage as something that was "settled" on ...IMO as a rationalization of why they didn't see traces of a loving marriage. (Emma) is Greenberg communicating a deeper sense of hunger here? Good point. Definitely a metaphor.

Walker: "I love the city, but it's dangerous to me. It's let me...become nothing." Even after he gives up the idea of having the house he says he'll stay in the barren apt. until he finds somethin in the country...

City, country...I don't think it makes a difference with Walker. He just keeps on running away from life. After they took Lina to the hospital post running throught the glass, he hid in the laundry room for hours. He's still trying to hide.

(Karen) ...It is Nan who at first wants to know nothing of what is in the journal. IMO I had the feeling that Nan didn't so much not want to hear what was in the journal as she was trying to get Walker to stop reading it...remember he is in a very shaky state already...no sleep for 2 nights, no food...and I really think she is worried about the effect it has/will have on Walker. Notice when he reads out some entry to her, followed by his reaction, she always addresses herself to his reaction. Walker: It was incredible. Nan: It's always incredible.. She just wanted to put off his reading it. And she was right. Note what his very last (over)reaction to its content was....

(evelyn) "Intercession, Karen J, Intercession" Touche!! (I knew it was wrong, I hoped you'd catch it!!

I might be going off on a tangent...but...here is a thought.... Act I WALKER: ...Something happens somewhere, makes a noise, the noise travels, charts the distance: The Story of a Moment... Act II (p.289)LINA :..isn�t that moment thrilling, right before it starts, and everything turns purple, and the swnings shake and the buildings ignite from the inside ?. I love that part. NED (p.294) I slept...late.....and when I woke up, it was...already raining a little. (and then comes that part about the 2 women in trench coats and the African violet plant spilling on her shoes....v. obscure) NED (p.297) The ..preposterous instinct that we are...wholly re-responsible for events...completely out of our control. (moments?) END of PLAY: LINA: Begin. NED: What? LINA: The house. Begin the house. NED: NO. LINA: I know you see it. I know you see the whole thing. Don�t you? NED: Yes. I know every moment Drawing a house with moments??? Somehow I think if we can crack the correlation between ..Rain...Moments...House... We�ll know what Greenberg is trying to allegorically tell us. Does the house symbolize Ned�s life? Made up of events beyond his control? Anyone have a clue?

(Heide) The saddest of all is one of the definitions of flaneur Ned gives Lina: "His life has no pattern...just traffic...and no hope--" But as Ned goes on to say, "Because he has no need of hope! The only thing he wants from life is...the day at hand." While that lifestyle is solitary, it is never lonely. Maybe Walker hasn't learned to appreciate what the city has to offer or maybe Ned's ideal is warped. ;-) (Heide) Even a weed growing through the cracks of a city sidewalk has strong roots. Was that meant to remind me of what needs to be done outside?? BTW, I'm putting out a contract on one of the trees in the parkway. ;-) (Emma) during the first act, all three characters mention food, and how hungry they are, and ask each other, "Did you ever eat?"...but somehow they never manage to eat (except when Nan munched on something from her purse), is Greenberg communicating a deeper sense of hunger here? Oh my!! What an interesting set of circumstances. They are constantly putting off eating by some other action. Didn't you just love Walker, who hadn't eaten in days, but had tried to order a hamburger and was intimidated by the waiter; Pip, who really wanted to get something but Walker's return and the return of guilt interrupted, and Nan who turned down the squid-tiramisu thing. Can't get much more nourishing than Pip's star fruit! (hee hee) When did Nan munch on something? (KJArt) Walker: "I love the city, but it's dangerous to me. It's let me...become nothing." In the city, he's a flaneur and he is not comfortable with it. He doesn't seem to share Ned's ideals because it makes him unhappy. I think as someone said earlier, he wants to be normal, set down roots, and have people over to his place. When he was in Tuscany, he rented a villa and he stayed put for nearly a year. (KJArt) She just wanted to put off his reading it. And she was right. Note what his very last (over)reaction to its content was.... No, I don't think so. Remember, the house for the journal - that was her offer. She didn't want him to read it at all and she didn't want to hear it. But why she put it back under the mattress. Silly woman. Walker and only Walker was meant to read it - the Princess and the Pea! ;-) (Evelyn) Does the house symbolize Ned's life? Made up of events beyond his control? I am thoroughly convinced that Greenberg is making a statement about the will of the individual and shaping one's destiny. He comes out firmly on the side of destiny (and one's genetic makeup). Poor Theo tries to make himself into something noteworthy and what happens? He dies at a very young age. Everybody else just goes with the flow and lets life happen to them. Lina: "I didn't even realize I was here! I didn't even realize I'd come to the neighborhood. It was not my intention." Ned: "It was the same as you...I...d-didn't come home right away. I walked out of my way because it was all so...pleasant, the day. I felt like a...flaneur." Maureen, initially tried to make something of herself. "she arrived with a carefully though-out plan to be amazing at something." But as fate would have it, nothing happened until she had given up on the plan and sat on a park bench in Washington Square Park, where she ran into an identical individual. The happiest and most normal person in the entire play is Pip. He has no great aspirations. He just lets life happen to him and he enjoys it. "Life is good."

Great and glorious summing-up, Karen!! Your clarity awes me!! (Really...I'm not pulling a "Walker", here!) Fantastic. Since we can no longer address the ultimate meaning of the entire piece, I guess we'll have to go back to nit-picking details... Building the house with moments...(Ned): I know every moment But didn't Ned earlier see with "astonishing clarity" that "the whole thing will blow up in our faces..." Initially, Lina's "Genius" fate had seemed to win out over Ned's "Guilt" fate. His envisionment of collapse, poverty, abandonment--this was not his (or Lina's) immediate fate. So how can he see "every moment" of the house? Evelyn: why "St. Louis??" AND do you think he would purposely trip in a movie scene? YES!!!

(KJArt) (Really...I'm not pulling a "Walker", here!) Then, should I "publish"?? (hee hee) (KJArt) Since we can no longer address the ultimate meaning of the entire piece Why? There's more. We can talk about the "legacy" from one's parents. (KJArt) I guess we'll have to go back to nit-picking details... I'm not averse to that; have degree in nit-pickology. ;-D Need to get back to thinking about the "house built with moments" and the "guilt/genius" views on life.

Evelyn: why "St. Louis??" "I read somewhere"...in an interview that he learned that swagger when he attended an inner city (sounded like) grade school in st. Louis...to mask the fear he had of some tough boys. AND do you think he would purposely trip in a movie scene? YES!!! Hardly cool.

(KJArt) Since we can no longer address the ultimate meaning of the entire piece Why? Giving Up? I'm not.I 'm not always right...but we seem to build on each other's ideas...makes for spirited discussion,which I like:-)

KJ, couldn't let you have all the epiphanies! Sorry, just doing a Joycean riff here. ;-p Haven't felt like researching the Reynolds comment. What did he have to say about "talent being divided into genius and taste." I know he set the standard for what was tasteful, but like everything, Greenberg must mean more. Is it ironic in some way? Was the division of work meaningless because talent should not be bound by taste??

KJArt, don't abandon us now, we still have lots to do. We should also dwell on La Rochefoucauld, and the trio of Act I and Act II. At some point, we should invite Greenberg to join us. He should receive the whole discussion and then fill in the blanks (if we will leave any;-) How difficult could it be to reach him? Karen? Is it still running in Chicago? Perhaps the manager there can help with a contact in NY (I assume he leaves in NY). Evelyn, I can't believe his strut is something he copied(say he what he will), he was born with it.

(I assume he leaves in NY). That should be lives, unless, Jung is trying to tell us something. Greenberg the flaneur. :-D