(Kirsten) But, as we all said before, we know none of his motives and what was explained to him about Jamie IMO Michael's motives were five thousand bucks....and Lust...... Not a bad combo when you think about it. :-)

(Kirsten) ...so it's all pure speculation and I'd rather put an end to it now, for my part. I don't want to harp on that That's fine, Kirsten. Please don't feel like you have to continue defending a point if you don't want to. Since I hadn't been on for a day or so, I had to throw in my two cents. If you don't buy it, you're in the majority!! ;-D

Hi everybody. Boy have I been gone too long? Thanks for the emain Evelyn. I have started school and so have the kids. So schedules have to be worked out, etc. I also have a new man in my life and you know how much space they can take up in your head.I would probably have been better off just sticking to drool than venturing out into the reality of dating in the 90's. I just can't believe how much discussion there's been here on PM. I guess it's time to watch it again, holding on to the remote to FF through the really s**ty parts. I think the movie really sucks but you all did give me food for thought..I think. I mean, to be perfectly honest the movie simply had no impact on me whatsoever. Except for totally turning me off to glass block! SO MUCH DISTORTION! I think (and I hope I can be perfectly honest with all of you and not be condemned as a total pervert) but the ock scene does have some redeaming qualities...LOL! But enough about my own personal lurid fantasies. Congratulations on a very in depth evaluation of a totally bad movie. We'll just go to any lenths for that man! Evelyn, you mentioned in your email that Valmont will be next? I'll be here, ready and willing to give it my best shot. I find it a WHOLE lot easier to watch than PM. It's good to be back among my fellow CF obsessives.

(Sofie) Evelyn, you mentioned in your email that Valmont will be next? I hope this will be the consensus....any other suggestions out there? We're so lucky to have Cheryle (if she can tear herself away from Fitzwilliam Films on #85) to give us the peripheral details of Valmont.

(Karen)If a different actor were playing the part, NO, I wouldn't even consider for a moment that the scene was embarrassing to do. Rather, I'd be embarrassed for myself that I was wasting my time watching this movie!! Exactly my thoughts. I think I would be more embarrassed to be watching it. Which makes me wonder if we haven't spent enough time on this. Though I will be checking out those shower blocks. Valmont seems to be picking up steam, Karen. What do you'all think? Does everyone who wants to participate have a copy? Speak now. Welcome back, Sofie. Glad there's still room in your head for our boy. Hope your new man is the understanding type.

I agree that we have really dissected this film. And most of us would have pressed the rewind button except for the star!! There was no salvation for this film...but CF did his best.

The best thing I can add about this film( and I use the term losely) is that no matter what we chose to discuss next....IT'S GONNA BE BETTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OK by me. Should we start around Oct. 1?

I hope Yapp accepts this posting....I upgraded to Explorer 4.and could not post Pox on Bill Gates..... Cheryle, pl. give us a rough guideline for Valmont. Similar to the one that you did for PM. It really helped in our discussion.We can then take it by increments. (BTW do you realize we had over 100 postings on PM???)A whole wad on the shower scenes!!!

(Evelyn) A whole wad on the shower scenes!!! Help me, help me!! My mind is going to those bad places again. Quick, let's move on to Valmont. October 1 sounds ideal. Karen, any symbolism we should look for as we watch? (You know I love you.)

(Evelyn)pl. give us a rough guideline for Valmont. Similar to the one that you did for PM. It really helped in our discussion.We can then take it by increments. (BTW do you realize we had over 100 postings on PM???)A whole wad on the shower scenes!!! I'm glad it was helpful and not too nutty (as in "nuts and boltsy".):-) But ya'll know this stuff so well...Who would have thought 100 on PM? And I appreciate the job he did even more now than I did before. I call that time well spent. ;-) I was thinking about how to go about V. It might be clearer to talk about the movie just as it is, how it might have been done, etc. and then we can talk about what we know of Milos' and C's intentions, etc. To do them both at the same time might get messy. Opinions?

(Heide) Help me, help me!! My mind is going to those bad places again. You're at Drool, so how can it be going to *wrong* places? ;-) any symbolism we should look for as we watch? (You know I love you.) Hey, I don't do it on purpose!! It just pops out at me. hee hee I have no problem with a free-form Valmont. I've just gotten into the book and have read over the relevant sections from Forman's memoirs. Does anyone have that picture of Colin in bed with Meg and Milos and other sundry crew up on the a website somewhere? The book is a riot so far....

(Cheryl) It might be clearer to talk about the movie just as it is, how it might have been done, etc. and then we can talk about what we know of Milos' and C's intentions, etc. Perhaps that's best to encourage as many people to post as possible because everybody's opinion is valid. Hear that, everyone? I don't want the esoteric stuff we talk about make it seem as if we're an insulated cliquish group of nuts. Though I wouldn't want you or Karen (or anyone else who's done their homework) to keep your perspectives to yourself. Not that I think either of you are more nuts than the rest of us! ;-D

I love Valmont! This certainly has great possibilities with dear Cheryl's insights. Duals both physical, mental and musical are very big here. I look forward to a lively discussion. `a bientot!

My spelling goes out the window when I get excited. Of course I mean duel!

(Karen) Does anyone have that picture of Colin in bed with Meg and Milos and other sundry crew up on the a website somewhere? Try this web site for a whole series of Valmont press photos. Trust me, it's well worth the trip!. I'm sorry I don't know how to insert a link so will just have to type the web reference. http://www.grin.net/~meluchie/vpk01.html . Click on the "next" at the bottom of the page because there are seven or eight pages of photos. The particular picture you referred to Karen, is on the sixth page in the series at the following url: http://www.grin.net/~meluchie/studio1.html although my particular favorit is at http://www.grin.net/~meluchie/studio4.html ;-). Can you tell I had this one book marked? Enjoy!

Well look at that! This clever software made all those links for me. How accomodating...

Thanks Jana for the links. Will check it out and read up on how to do those image things (v.technical jargon) Just for you, Heide: As Valmont emerges from the pond, his hair takes on the appearance of an octopus. Does this indicate he is trying to reach out? ;-D

Congratulations to Karen and to Heidi, the new drool hostesses! We'll be getting you enabled soon. And thanks to Evelyn for helping with the transition!

WOO HOO!! CONGRATULATIONS Heide and Karen. And Karen on such a milestone:)

Thank you ...Heide and Karen...for being our new DROOL HOSTS. We appreciate your willingness to take us on. Promise to behave :-) And thanks to Evelyn for helping with the transition! All I did was call Terry...I live in Oklahoma and feel I can open the window and shout out to Terry down-the-road-a-piece in Austin, Texas!! I spent the weekend grappling with my upgraded browser Explorer 4.which Yapp would not accept. Called Nan (who else?)who suggested I download Netscape and now all is well:-)

Thank you Heide, Karen, Evelyn......and once again, Nan and Terry! I tend to assume that Drool will always be here without thinking of all the hard work necessary to maintain it. Look forward to Valmont! You can still buy (I think) Christopher Hampton's play (as performed in the theatre) "Les Liaisons Dangereuses" Published by Faber. ISBN 0-571-13724-5. �5.99

Thank you Heide and Karen. Yippee! We are no longer hostless :-)

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

It is indeed most kind of you. What a terrific duo! Thank you.

(Terry) We'll be getting you enabled soon. Wonder what *that* means!! ;-) [Have I been disabled all along? Hmmm] And thanks to Evelyn for helping with the transition! You guys have no idea what this woman did! She pushed both of us into this! I think Evelyn should run for President. She's the only person I know who could shake that town up and get something done. *big round of applause* :-) OK: Housekeeping The book that Evelyn mention, while out of print, is available via used book dealers. There are two sites that show copies available for minimal cost. This is a paperback. They do not reference by ISBN number, so go by publisher, date and translator if given (this edition is by P.K. somebody or other)--you will see. If you need additional info email me. The sites are: www.abebooks.com www.bibliofind.com I have seen the Hampton screenplay for the Frears movie and in the prologue he mentions the run to get it on the screen because of the Forman film. But not much else. Also, there is an PB edition of Lost Empires with Colin's picture on the back. The book was issued in conjunction with the Mobil Masterpiece Theater presentation of the miniseries. Again, it is available via used book dealers or shops. I found it that way. The edition of Lost Empires is by Vintage. I can can provide more info later. Thank you all for your good wishes. Hope we are up to the task of stepping into Nan's shoes.

Additional Book Info: Valmont, Penguin edition, translated by P.W.K. Stone. Must be published 1989. Lost Empires, Vintage edition (NY) 1987 or later. Since the ordering with these websites is done completely by regular email, you might want to verify the details with the bookseller before ordering. Happy hunting! :-)

Ooops, Valmont is listed under Dangerous Liaisons--its real name.

Hey, I got back from my vacation in Toronto to find a lot's been happening here! Congratulations, and a thousand thanks, to our new hosts, and best wishes for your work. :-)))

I'm jumping the gun a little bit. By posting VALMONT comments on the 29th, but I'll be away tomorrow. Someone posted this on RoP Virtual Views after I invited anyone who wanted to join our discussion to come over. I think it's pretty funny...and would seve aas an okay guideline... "Are you guys doing a discussion of the film, as in film-book comparison, film-play comparison,film-film comparison, bits-they left-out-of-the-translations comparisons,was-the-director-nuts stuff,why-did-they-mess-up-the-ending stuff,logistics-of- shooting-arrows-into-hot-turkeys stuff,whether-powder-blue-had- been-invented stuff, history-of-punting stuff? Or is this going to be pure Colin Adoration?" My answer to her is that "...we're goin' to do all of the above"... I hope the person does join us. And I hope people feel comfortable posting their comments.

cont'd I have only viewed half of the film this time around..IMO I found the cinematography brilliant. I am not familiar with photography,butI thought this was shot in a muted color- "ochre".Lent itself to the unpredictable undercurrent running through the plot . Cheryle would youpl. tell us of this photographic technique...if there was one? The music was memorable (Can Sir Neville Marriner do wrong? He also did Amadeus).The settings in France breathtaking. Costumes that rated the Oscar nomination which it received. This was a $35.M production ten years ago...no telling what it would be in 98$$$.

cont'd In Milos Forman's Memoirs he writes that he offered the role of M. de Merteuil to Michelle Pheiffer..she turned him down, and later signed up to play M. de Tourvel in the film Dangerous Liaison. The he cast Annette Bening in the role. He found it harder to cast Valmont...auditioned many American actors but the "accents didn't go with the gold embroidered waistcoats...and V. ingrained ine manners." He finally decided to cast an Englishman and chose CF. My question to him would be :why did he feel that an accent was necessary for the lead male and not for the others? Did anyone feel that M. de Mertueil sing-song inflections were distracting. The script too vernacular for the period.? More later on plot development... Memorable Colin scenes... ....was Andrew Davies inspired by the lake scene replete with wet shirt, bathtub scene, and fencing scene for P&P?

Wow!! A place to drool over Colin Firth. Amazing! I am a fairly new Colin Firth Obsessive. I must say it started with my first viewing of "Pride and Prejudice". I mean was that man Mr. Darcy or what! Rides a fine horse too! I haven't seen many of his movies, but did enjoy the discussion of the "Playstar" that you were discussing. I understand that he is a newlywed? Lucky guy, I guess. I have checked out the colinfirth.com page. Lots of information. And on one guy! I hope to be able to join in when I get up to speed with his movies. Tonight I will watch "Circle of Friends" and possibly tomorrow will be spent hopefully with "Valmont"! That is what you are going to currently discuss, no? Well I hope this is a long and lasting obsession, wouldn't want this to turn into a Hugh Grant thingy. (Yes, I used to adore him, but not anymore; please don't hold it against me)

One question that I hope we will answer is : Does Valmont love the Marquise? This of course should happen much later on, since his declaration comes at the end of the film. Which brings me to quote the Marquise, �More, I want more!�. It is certainly Annette�s movie as well and she is wonderful. How could Milos have possibly considered Michelle P. for the role? The casting of DL was horrendous IMO. My only casting question in V is Meg Tilly. And to think that Milos had wanted her to play Mozart�s wife in Amadeus baffles me as well. Amadeus was perfectly cast. Colin and the old matron who played his aunt were absolutely charming and quite funny too. I loved her lines. Cheryle was that a full wig he wore? When he is all wet I say yes, otherwise it seems that it could just be the pony tail. Valmont and C�cile were like two children. Valmont�s game was to seduce. C�cile�s to play the vestal virgin. In the end a switch takes place. C�cile is seduced and Valmont is ready to abandon seduction and proposes marriage to the Marquise. He loses then, as he lost in the dueling game he played with C�cile at his aunt�s estate. More later.

(Moon) The casting of DL was horrendous IMO. Did you think so , Moon? It's portrayed so differently. Glen Close is vicious .(nominated for Oscar for role,,,so was DLas a film)..I looked at it yesterday.Uma Thurman was Cecile, and Keanu Reeves Darceny!!It's an entirely different film, IMO My only casting question in V is Meg Tilly. Again IMO I thought MT was v. good in the part...prudish,plain.Michelle Pheiffer in DL plays it with more glamor...not as naive as MT.

Welcome, Audrey. Remember to check all the CF discussion boards, there are several, some with straight, some with oblique references ;-)

Welcome Audrey. Always nice to have new people join us. Great comments, Moon. I agree, let's wait to discuss the big question about who Valmont loves? Is it the M de M or is it M de Tourvel? Need to refresh my memory on Valmont so any comments (fav scenes, dialogue, etc.) will have to wait for a couple of days. Then I'm sure we'll be rolling along.

There's so much to discuss in this film (Colin? Colin who?) and Evelyn and Moon have gotten the ball rolling. I join in welcoming you Annette and hope you'll stay awhile. Beware though, the more you get involved here, the harder it is to break away. First stab - I will just take my impressions from simply the film for now - no extraneous information yet garnered from the book, Milos's book, Cheryl's information or even Dangerous Liaisons. I have some observations and questions which might help provoke discussion. Cast is terrific except for Annette Bening. We differ here, Moon. I had no problem with the American accents and actually prefer that they all didn't put on unnatural, posh accents. Still, Annette's breathy and as Evelyn says "sing song" voice is terribly annoying. She had a tough role and perhaps would have been stronger if she could have made the audience feel some understanding or sympathy for her character. Or is that going completely against Laclos's intention? Does Valmont have intentions of seducing Madame de Tourvel before Madame de Merteuil comes into the picture? From the lake scene, one sees he is being very playful, enjoying teasing her. Would he be willing to leave it at that if MM had not pushed him into the bet? Yes, we know he is a snake and perhaps would be satisified seducing her without an audience. Then again, in a later scene when MT is being mocked at the dinner table by the more worldly guests, he takes up her defense or at least deflects t e attention from her. Is he defending her or is this just a ploy in his quest to seduce her? MM wants all of Paris to laugh at Gercourt after he finds out Cecile is not pure. How would all of Paris know this? Would Gercourt admit this to anyone? In dinner scene at Madame de Rosamunde's, what the heck is MM nibbling on from her fork? Very suggestive. Does Madame de Volanges mistrust MM? We see glimmers of it: when Cecile is missing when MV unexpectedly returns from the opera, she returns to confront MM; she looks less than confident at the wedding of her daughter. MT has heard from "a friend" about Valmont's reputation. Is that friend MM? I believe Valmont suspects that. He looks non too pleased (and very good throughout the movie when he must wear that pout). Even after scenes when I assume he does love MT, he is very cruel to her. If you agree, why is he thus? After his first night with MT, he asks her when her husband comes home. I thought that was rather cruel to remind her of her infidelity. In his letter to her he urges her to find another lover as if she has now joined the ranks of women who casually take lovers. Does anyone know what Valmont says to his aunt before he leaves for Paris? He is whispering to her and MM is annoyed she doesn't know what he's saying and Aunt pretends to be deaf. Am I correct in making out the last words as "Trust me."? When MT returns to Valmont and they make love, her wedding ring is very prominently shown on her finger. Intentional? We know she planned on leaving him, giving him a taste of his own medicine. Is the ring meant to show she has no plans of leaving her husband which is the only way she would accept Valmont for a lover. Is Valmont a better human being than MM? A resounding "YES!" Why? Because he can apologize. MM tells Danceny apologizing is not her style. Valmont, very dejected at being thrown over by MT tries to make up with MM. He sounds truly contrite when he apologizes for sending D. to challenge her. Agree with Evelyn whole heartedly about the cinematography, sets and costumes. Very opulent production. (Moon) Valmont and C�cile were like two children Agree, Moon. Almost like brother and sister. I think of their dueling game and their very lively dance. C�cile is seduced and Valmont is ready to abandon seduction and proposes marriage to the Marquise. I think he performed his obligation and moved on to more worthy opponents. I'll save my comments on love and MM and love and MT after others have a chance to comment. Next?

MM wants all of Paris to laugh at Gercourt after he finds out Cecile is not pure. How would all ofParis know this? Would Gercourt admit this to anyone? I have not gotten my book yet, but in the film Valmont gives Dalceny all of MM letters when he is dying and tells D . to circulate them around Paris. In the closing scene MM goes to the opera and the audience looks up at her and boos! Her punishment. Heide, it was me, not Moon that objected to the vernacular American accents, and script using 20th Century vocabulary. But that is IMO.

Sorry, I mean't to say that in the film ,Dangerous Liaisons, when Valmont is dying he gives the blood-stained letters to Dalceny..... Welcome Audrey. View the film and pl give us your comments. And welcome back Gi...we have missed you. And have a good trip Kirsten...perhaps I'll run into you in London, I shall be there after the 10th for three weeks :-))

Oops, sorry Audrey. Guess I have Annette on the brain. (Evelyn) Heide, it was me, not Moon that objected to the vernacular American accents, and script using 20th Century vocabulary. Actually, what I meant to say in my rather stilted paragraph is where I differ with Moon is in our opinion of Annette Bening. But I think I may be prejudiced against her because of the thorougly unlikeable character she plays - in which case she does an excellent job of making you hate her. We will miss two highly vocal, thoughtful posters when Evelyn and Kirsten are travelling. Have a wonderful time!

Welcome, Audrey! (Heide) Still, Annette's breathy and as Evelyn says "sing song" voice is terribly annoying. You take the words out of my mouth. I find her way of speaking so distracting that I rather watch the German dubbed version. But I think I may be prejudiced against her because of the thorougly unlikeable character she plays - in which case she does an excellent job of making you hate her. But we are not supposed to hate her for her speaking manners, are we?! :-p Which she uses, if I remember right, mainly when trying to be seducing: to Cecile and to Valmont. ??? I may be wrong - have to see it again. It's just too obvious and unnatural, IMO, she could also wear a tag "Look what a great seductress I am". I prefer the "less is more - acting school". Though, I am looking forward to the discussion. Just a thought: This Valmont seems to be a big boy, not very passionate, but to whom making love is as natural as drinking and eating or any kind of sportive activity.

( Heide), Cast is terrific except for Annette Bening. We differ here, Moon. I had no problem with the American accents and actually prefer that they all didn't put on unnatural, posh accents. Still, Annette's breathy and as Evelyn says "sing song" voice is terribly annoying. She had a tough role and perhaps would have been stronger if she could have made the audience feel some understanding or sympathy for her character. Or is that going completely against Laclos's intention? I still preferred it GC�s. Annette was coquettish and very feminine (flirty eyes and all). I could understand why V would be v. taken by her, even after his many conquests. Meg T. I would have replaced by Sophie Marceau. Does Valmont have intentions of seducing Madame de Tourvel before Madame de Merteuil comes into the picture? YES! He is the seducer, it is a game to him. And at the dinner table the game continues. To charm is to seduce, with or without an audience. MM wants all of Paris to laugh at Gercourt after he finds out Cecile is not pure. How would all of Paris know this? Would Gercourt admit this to anyone? He wouldn�t need to, MM would take care of informing their Aristocratic acquaintances. In dinner scene at Madame de Rosamunde's, what the heck is MM nibbling on from her fork? Very suggestive. What a tease! I thought it to be a slice of a pear. Does Madame de Volanges mistrust MM? We see glimmers of it: when Cecile is missing when MV unexpectedly returns from the opera, she returns to confront MM; she looks less than confident at the wedding of her daughter. Bien sur! MT has heard from "a friend" about Valmont's reputation. Is that friend MM? I believe Valmont suspects that. He looks non too pleased (and very good throughout the movie when he must wear that pout). I think that to be a safe bet. V always looks good. What about those smiles? Even after scenes when I assume he does love MT, he is very cruel to her. If you agree, why is he thus? After his first night with MT, he asks her when her husband comes home. I thought that was rather cruel to remind her of her infidelity. In his letter to her he urges her to find another lover as if she has now joined the ranks of women who casually take lovers. He is taken by her, but I don�t believe he really loves her. He shows no remorse. She may eventually accept him as a lover because that seems to be the thing to do. Showing the wedding ring was one way of letting us know. She had written a letter to her husband but then we see him still at home. There is no explanation for this. Does anyone know what Valmont says to his aunt before he leaves for Paris?Ma ch�re tante, excusez-moi, mais je dois all� � la salle de bain�� Paris. Is Valmont a better human being than MM? A resounding "YES!" Absolutely. We are led to believe that there was something between the two of them in the past when she says � still love you, you know.� I believe that he loves her. At this point, he realizes that the game of seduction has gone too far, he wants to end it perhaps with the only woman that might have left him first? That would be the perfect end. MM of course challenges him instead when she shows him the Chevalier in her bed. Why would he strike her if he didn�t love her. C�cile was no longer innocent, why should the Chevalier be? The irony is that V is challenged to a duel for 1. C�cile�s seduction and 2. His slapping MM. Since MM started the whole bloody business to begin with. It is she alone who is responsible for V�s death. Little did she know V�s will to live had died in her house at that moment. More later.

This is cool!!

Hmm spoke too soon, apparently. :-(

One more time (fingers crossed, which makes typing difficult.)

Yo Ho! Lovely job, Karen!!! And welcome back, thought you disappeared there for a while!!! I love the movie Valmont, I especially love the costumes and the music!!! Old Auntie was very funny. But everytime CF is on that screen my heart would just melt!!! Oh at the Opera when he meets Cecile for the first time. I could be putty in those deep chocolate brown eyes! And the grin, beatific yes, but oh what a smile!!!

Hmmm... Thanks for the welcomes!!! Okay, saw circle of friends. He was okay. I mean I don't htnk i liked the mustache. tonight is valmont!! will be able to post I htink on monday. you guys get so into it and i don't think i'd add antyhing insightful at all. i like him because i find him to be acreidt and ccredible actor. I wish I could type better!

(Moon)V always looks good. What about those smiles? (Laura) And the grin, beatific yes, but oh what a smile!!! You know, that's why I like this film. He smiles throughout...big wide happy smiles. (Almost worth putting up with AB.) Karen...so proud of you. Does help in a discussion to get an image occasionally. Any smiley ones around?

Yum, I think I can really sink my teeth into this discussion. Great insights and great photos! Karen, you sly thing. Lovely! Any other delectible photos out there for others to share? (Renate) This Valmont seems to be a big boy, not very passionate, but to whom making love is as natural as drinking and eating or any kind of sportive activity. Yes, I agree he is a big boy in this film and comparing making love to sport is quite accurate, IMO. If you think that Valmont is not passionate, would you say that he is incapable of love? Which brings us to the interesting debate of love for MM or love for MT or both or none. Anyone ready to tackle that yet? (Moon on MT) He is taken by her, but I don�t believe he really loves her. He shows no remorse. (Moon on MM) I believe that he loves her. Moon's put her toe first in the water here. This should be an interesting debate. (Moon) She had written a letter to her husband but then we see him still at home. There is no explanation for this. Agreed, at least not from the film. I would guess, without looking at other sources, that he has either returned home despite the letter or she has asked him to return him, probably throwing herself at his feet. No MM she. Thanks, Moon, for letting us know what Valmont has whispered to his aunt. How do you know this and will you provide a translation? I can only make out the first phrase. Frankly, I'm disappointed. I was hoping he was giving his aunt an inkling of MM's treachery. (Moon) The irony is that V is challenged to a duel for 1. C�cile�s seduction and 2. His slapping MM. Very good example. Drove me nuts. The real instigator of all this unhappiness gets away scot free, almost. Of course MM's comeuppance is more visually realized in DL. Here it appears that MM's punishment is just her realization that she has lost the only man worthy of her. (Moon) It is she alone who is responsible for V�s death. Little did she know V�s will to live had died in her house at that moment. Did it here? My impression is that he lost his will when he found MT had returned to her husband. He wasn't ready to admit this yet and instead went to MM thinking that he could reclaim happiness by collecting on his bet. I think this is an important point that was brought up by Moon about Valmont losing his "will to live". Do you think the DL film conveys this better or do you prefer the subtlety of Valmont? In the duel scene, Valmont looks relieved (and very, very enticing - I love him in this scene) as if now he can finally pay for the hurt he's caused. (Laura) And the grin, beatific yes, but oh what a smile!!! (Moon) I think that to be a safe bet. V always looks good. What about those smiles? (Evelyn) You know, that's why I like this film. He smiles throughout...big wide happy smiles. Sounds unanimous. Frankly, though, I was a bit put off the very first time I saw this which was (I think) the first film of Colin's I watched after P&P. I guess it was because he never smiled in P&P. Those teeth were all I could focus on but now I love that smile very much.

Oh, but he did smile in P&P - once. How could you miss it?

(Heide)Which brings us to the interesting debate of love for MM or love for MT or both or none. Anyone ready to tackle that yet? The foreword to my book has a Harry Levin from Harvard saying: "The real game is between these two accomplices , and their complicity turns in a mutually destructive campaign in the perennial battle of the sexes. He is much the simpler character: a dandy, a Don Juan, cold-blooded enough about women but head-over-heels in love with himself, aach amorous success on the scoreboard of male vanity. She is less a coquette than a femme fatale ....a self-professed Delilah , with a vengence of hate to wreak on the opposite sex" We don't have to accept this perspective, but I thought it interesting. I saw her really hating men as a genre...enjoyed injuring them...even Valmont.Obviously, she only loved herself too.

Arami Re: smiles " Oh, but he did smile in P&P - once. How could you miss it?" Yup, my favorite P&P pic. It's my desktop wallpaper and each time I log on I see the both of them...smiling, happy.. and she has that precious little hand on his thigh...(sigh) (sigh)

Jana had mentioned that was her *favorite* ;-)

Karen, lovely pictures, *sigh*. (Renate) This Valmont seems to be a big boy, not very passionate, but to whom making love is as natural as drinking and eating or any kind of sportive activity. Seduction is a game that he plays very well. (Heide), Thanks, Moon, for letting us know what Valmont has whispered to his aunt. How do you know this and will you provide a translation? My dear aunt, please excuse me but I must go to the bathroom�in Paris. (heehee) (Heide), My impression is that he lost his will when he found MT had returned to her husband. V was perhaps hurt at the thought that if MT was back with her husband, well then, he hadn�t done such a good job of seducing her (by making her fall completely in love with him). (Heide), He wasn't ready to admit this yet and instead went to MM thinking that he could reclaim happiness by collecting on his bet. He went to MM to brag about his success with MT. They did have a bet after all. He won the bet�he won the game. (Heide), Do you think the DL film conveys this better or do you prefer the subtlety of Valmont? Valmont without a doubt. DL is a disaster, too Hollywood. The Academy Awards are a big popularity contest. Cheryle, where are you?

During the film when the above seduction is taking place, did you notice the film gets very grainy on that close up? I wonder if Milos filmed it as a wider shot but then changed his mind and had to zoom in and re-film directly from the film. Cheryle, can you answer this?

Hi folks, just got back. I sprained my ankle and am only now returning to the world. Lots to catch up on both here and at work, so I'll be back on the air asap. Good to see your start :-)

(Karen) Jana had mentioned that was her *favorite* ;-) Karen, how can I ever thank you? And it's so big, too ;-)! (Moon) During the film when the above seduction is taking place, did you notice the film gets very grainy on that close up? Interesting observation. I'll check that out on my next viewing. I watched this film on the Bravo channel a little while ago (I have it on tape but get a cheap thrill watching CF in real time). Bravo doesn't show anything R rated, but they also don't cut films. So in this scene they just zoomed in really tight on Colin's face until his huge blurry head filled up the screen and you couldn't see the rest of the ahem, action. Very odd! Next time I stick to watching my tape :-) Welcome Audrey. Glad you came to play

A fun fact I learned about a month ago: did you know that PAL tapes run almost 5% faster than NTSC tapes and the films themselves? Recently I read an article in the Director's Guild Magazine by an editor who discovered this. After preparing, shooting, editing, and promoting a film, most directors leave it to their editors to check the film transfers to tape (if they worry about it at all. I'm sure it wasn't a concern on PM ;-).) Usually they're checking to see that the colors are ok. The NTSCs are r n before the PALs over here, so editors and directors assume that once a transfer is done, it's done. Au contraire! This guy happened to see a PAL version of his film, and nearly cried. It was a drama and it was almost comical. All the editing seemed a little off. He then looked at a ton of other PALs, and found the sad truth. The feeling was very different. Our PALs are seeing a slightly different film than the rest of us.

Our PALs are seeing a slightly different film than the rest of us. And that would be the whole world except North America. :-) I wonder what happens to PAL films when they are converted to NTSC? But, I wonder, did he really watch them on a PAL system? I once watched an NTSC version of Apartment Zero on my PAL vcr, and it, erhm, worked somehow. Only it was bw and the voices were a bit darker. But I have seen a lot of films which were originally NTSC, and they were not likewise mutilated. So there must be a way to make a proper translation. I have recently got an NTSC enabled PAL vcr, so I can check both versions. Will let you know what I find out. Just curious: has any of you guys ever put a PAL tape into your NTSC-only recorder? If I remember correctly, the main difference is that PAL has 24 frames per second, and NTSC 25.

I have a PAL/ NTSC VCR and view both without a problem. I'm afraid I can't answer your question. Jana, I taped V from Bravo too. Let me know what you think. I hope you are feeling better now Cheryle. Look forward to your many observations.

Hope you're feeling better, Cheryle....we've missed you. Glad you're back :-)) (Renate) Just a thought: This Valmont seems to be a big boy, not very passionate, but to whom making love is as natural as drinking and eating or any kind of sportive activity. It was interesting to see this interpretation by Milos Forman.For CF plays Valmont as a "bonhomie with a big libido" rather than a despicable predator.My question to Cheryle (when you have time) : Did you get any knowledge of how CF personally interpreted the character of Valmont.? Did he and MF see "eye -to -eye ? MMy question

I seemed to me that so much happened at once that V lost his will to live his plot to bring Cecile and Chevalier together failed, then he found Chevalier in MM's bed. MT went back to her husband. I think he really loved MM but when she took such delight in showing him that she had seduced Chev. he really saw how corrupt she was. In the end when Chev was in the balcony laughing with the girls, the look MM gave him made me think that she is going to make him pay dearly for killing V. I liked Valmont much better than DL. He wasn't so blatently evil and cruel as JM was in DL, he was more like a big spoiled boy playing the game of seduction I got the impression at the cemetary that MT might be carrying his child too, did anyone else think this.

I'm going to try to catch up here without being repetitious, and BTW I do have the book cover scanned but need our Spring Administrators to give me access to load it. Sorry. (Evelyn) My question to him would be: why did he feel that an accent was necessary for the lead male and not for the others? Very true, Evelyn. He didn't feel the same way in casting other period films like Amadeus. Perhaps there was something in the character of Valmont that he didn't feel would be believable with an American accent. Not that any of us aren't glad he did cast CF, although if he hadn't then don't you wonder what might have happened with his career, i.e., the major disappointment of V, his years in exile with MT, etc., but that probably belongs on another topic!! Maybe it was just the "voice." A voice like that could seduce anyone. Did anyone feel that M. de Mertueil sing-song inflections were distracting. Maybe I just like AB too much in this and her other roles, but I didn't find her voice to be distracting. That's just how she is. ....was Andrew Davies inspired by the lake scene replete with wet shirt, bathtub scene, and fencing scene for P&P? Also, musn't forget the pinkie ring twirling. ;-) (Moon) It is certainly Annette�s movie as well and she is wonderful. Totally agreed here. My only casting question in V is Meg Tilly. I liked Meg Tilly in the role and can see why she was cast. (Wasn't Agnes of God before this?) She has that look of piety and innocence that are required for MTourvel. In his first letter to MM in the book, Valmont describes her as : "you know her piety, her conjugal devotion, her austere principles." They argue over the "inexpressiveness" of her face, which V defends as being due to purity of heart, i.e., nothing as yet has touched it. the old matron who played his aunt were absolutely charming and quite funny too. Took me a while to place her. Wasn't she also Mabel Leighton in the Jewel in the Crown? Valmont�s game was to seduce. C�cile�s to play the vestal virgin. Well, C�cile was a virgin until..., but she's more than interested in finding out all there is to know about love, marriage, sex, etc., and believes herself in love with Danceny. She's very excited to be getting married initially (pre-Danceny). Do you mean that she's to play that part for Gercourt? When I think of Valmont, I find I cannot help but think of the film Ridicule, as another excellent illustration of society at that time. These titled, upper class people were idle. They had nothing to do but play games. If not seduction and affairs, then it was wordplay. Valmont and MM had roles in society. Both of them were notorious for their sexual escapades, although it is apparent from Madame de Volanges' trust of MM that MM was better able to conceal her true nature or maybe that MM (as a relat on) was better able to convince her otherwise. He loses then, as he lost in the dueling game he played with C�cile at his aunt�s estate. Ooooh!! My kind of foreshadowing. Brilliant observation, Moon, of the final duel. (Evelyn) Glen Close is vicious. (Heide) [AB] had a tough role and perhaps would have been stronger if she could have made the audience feel some understanding or sympathy for her character. The character of MM is vicious from page 1. She instigates the whole thing. Her motives are nothing but vengeful. We don't see AB's full-blown demasking until V's proposal scene near the end, which I think is good. We're not sure up to this point of her true character, just as we haven't been entirely sure of Valmont. Both come out then. (Heide) Does Valmont have intentions of seducing Madame de Tourvel before Madame de Merteuil comes into the picture? Yes, he's been working on her for some time. She represents a major challenge for him. The ultimate in the unattainable. He's also feeling a little old/bored at this point (mid-life crisis, perhaps), in a rut, same-old same-old, and she's his little red Porsche. ;-) Would he be willing to leave it at that if MM had not pushed him into the bet? Doubt it. I think it all depends on how many people knew. He had told her about his latest seduction target or love (depending on how you view it). If he gave up, what would it do to his reputation? All these people did was gossip about one another. Which brings me back to M de Vol. How could she trust MM? Was MM so discreet that no rumor about her exploits and her affair with Gercourt ever reached the ears of M de Vol? in a later scene when MT is being mocked at the dinner table by the more worldly guests, he takes up her defense or at least deflects the attention from her. Is he defending her or is this just a ploy in his quest to seduce her? Definitely ploy. Total act. He's been trying to show MT that he isn't anything like the reputation he has throughout Paris, and she's halfway believing him. Naive little simp. MM wants all of Paris to laugh at Gercourt after he finds out Cecile is not pure. How would all of Paris know this? Would Gercourt admit this to anyone? MM would make sure everyone knew. She would probably have started spreading the rumor at the wedding ceremony itself had not the other events transpired. Does Madame de Volanges mistrust MM?...she looks less than confident at the wedding of her daughter. I don't think so, which I find rather hard to accept. M de Vol is well-aware of Valmont's reputation and she corresponds with MT (in the book) and tells her unequivocally what he is. But at the same time, she doesn't appear to believe the same of her own cousin, MM. Was all her information on Valmont from MM? That might explain the one-sidedness. However, by the end, she knows (remember the scene in Cecile's bedroom) that her daughter has been with Valmont and that a duel was fought over that point o honor. MT has heard from "a friend" about Valmont's reputation. Is that friend MM? I believe Valmont suspects that. He looks none too pleased In the book, it is M de Vol who keeps warning her. Also, he is more interested in finding out who has been maligning him than anything else, including refuting the information. Even after scenes when I assume he does love MT, he is very cruel to her. If you agree, why is he thus? I do believe that he found himself really in love with MT. First it was an attraction that became the most tempting challenge he had had for some time. He could see there was far more within her than anyone else could see. (a smoldering passionate fire, perhaps, that was wasted on her husband) Anyway, Valmont like many men are uncomfortable when feelings of real love confront them. Being cruel, running away, driving off that person who has or can have power over you is their first reaction. Denial, ure and simple. It also would better his reputation - that he tossed her aside like an old rag. How would it look for the great lover Valmont to have fallen hopelessly in love? People might laugh at him. Is Valmont a better human being than MM?...He sounds truly contrite when he apologizes for sending D. to challenge her. Well, I don't know about better....;-) but he is definitely not as cruel as she is. MM looks very contrite at V's funeral and at Cecile's wedding. She looks totally broken. Is it heart-felt? Is she sorry she drove Valmont over the edge with that little scene in her salon? Who knows. However, I didn't see Colin's Valmont as being cruelly sadistic as AB's MM was. It was a game for him and her only way of life. Valmont had experienced true love. MM wasn't capable of it maybe. (Moon) Valmont and C�cile were like two children (Heide) I think of their dueling game and their very lively dance. That parlor dance. Look at the expressions on MT's face. Is she interested or what? (Renate) This Valmont seems to be a big boy, not very passionate, but to whom making love is as natural as drinking and eating or any kind of sportive activity. Interesting observation. Seducers come in all flavors. There are your suave debonair types and your cute as a button puppy dog types. Colin's Valmont is smooth alright, but he's a cutie with dogged persistence and humor. (Moon) I still preferred it GC�s. Annette was coquettish and very feminine (flirty eyes and all). I could understand why V would be v. taken by her, even after his many conquests. But is he taken with her or has he resigned himself to hooking up with her because of their true natures. Two of a kind. It wouldn't be right to pursue MT seriously when he was a scoundrel at heart. He wouldn't have to be or try to be anything other than himself with MM. Who better than your best friend and confidante? Keep thinking about the lawyer-shark jokes: professional courtesy! He is taken by her [MT], but I don�t believe he really loves her. He shows no remorse. I still think he's in denial that he actually has those feelings. I think he's positively crushed when she leaves him that night. He sits there drinking wine and thinking about what has happened and what he should do. Just the way their love-making is photographed, all that whirling around and tenderness (her tears) I think is Forman's way of showing us that it is for real on both their parts. Real emotions are on display. She had written a letter to her husband but then we see him still at home. There is no explanation for this. Good catch, Moon. Hole in script. (and we thought only PM had them) We are led to believe that there was something between the two of them in the past when she says � still love you, you know.� At the beginning of the book, MM solicits Valmont's help with the Cecile seduction because he too has something against Gercourt. Apparently, Valmont was a having an affair with another woman, while MM was having hers with Gercourt. Then Gercourt dumped MM and took up with the woman Valmont was seeing. It was at that point that MM and Valmont had their affair, but I haven't gotten to the point where they break up and why. (Laura) Oh at the Opera when he meets Cecile for the first time. I could be putty in those deep chocolate brown eyes! And the grin, beatific yes, but oh what a smile!!! Yes, yes, yes. He gives such great looks when he's around Cecile. There's also the one when MM and Cecile arrive in the carriage and MM says, "Look who I've brought with me." Roll those eyes!! (Heide) My impression is that he lost his will when he found MT had returned to her husband. Yes, I think it occured then. He had put her up on a pedestal and really did not think her capable of being another one of those society ladies who kept lovers. When she came to him, he would have thought that she was desperately in love with him and had already left her husband (the letter she had written after the first time) and would take whatever crumbs he would throw her way. He wasn't ready to admit this yet and instead went to MM thinking that he could reclaim happiness by collecting on his bet. I think we're talking about two different scenes. Isn't Moon referring to the second night with MT? He goes to MM's and proposes to her mainly out of resignation to his own fate that birds of a feather should flock together. Her cruelty to him at that point is just the capper. (Evelyn) I saw her really hating men as a genre...enjoyed injuring them When she played games, she definitely wanted to be on top! Seriously, though, I did sense a sadistic quality in her nature. She said she had been married and was a widow. (Evelyn, do you want to speculate on that?) Perhaps, her husband cheated on her and now she was going to take it out on all men. How else to account for the level of vengefulness we see in her. She has to be in control at all times. For CF plays Valmont as a "bonhomie with a big libido" rather than a despicable predator. And that's why we sympathize with him and come out so virulently against MM. She's cruel and despicable. He's a cuddly guy who is v.good with women. Can he help it that he didn't have to work for a living and spent all his time seducing women? (OK, now I'm turning into a Valmont apologist in addition to being a Darcy apologist.) My only quibble on casting is Sian Phillips as Cecile's mother. She could be playing MM's mother more credibly. Will watch DL tonight. Wish I were further along in the book to be able to determine who is being more true to it. Although Forman acknowledged in his book:"I was intrigued enough to reread the book, but when I did so, I discovered a strange thing: Hampton had been as faithful to the original as you can be when you condense a long novel into a play. He had gotten all the facts right and had captured the spirit of the book. It was my memory that had been playing tricks on me."No ice though he said "as faithful...as you can be." ;-) So there is still room for discussion, especially when one takes a play and another director (Frears) does his own interpretative thing.

(Evelyn) I saw her really hating men as a genre... Perhaps, her husband cheated on her and now she was going to take it out on all men. . She has to be in control at all time I don't know whether her husband cheated on her...but she was livid when Gercourt cut out on her for Cecile. And at one point she tells Valmont: "Want to know why I never remarried...because I didn't want to take orders". Vindictive and in absolute control..all the time. I would have liked to have seen a more sensuous actress take this role ....Sharon Stone, Demi Moore (except she can't act ) I am intrigued with whoever said that M. Torvel looked as if she was carrying Valmont's child...that was not mentioned in the book. But Milos Forman took a lot of liberties.

Geez, Karen, you could've written your own novel with that lengthy discussion on Valmont. I think THIS movie shoulda won the oscar not Playmaker:)

I can't disparage Dangerous Liaisons because I think it was a fine film, excellently cast (for the most part) and beautifully filmed. My favorite scene is when Valmont keeps saying, "It is beyond my control" to MM as she pleads for him to take her back. Curious to see if that is in the book. I do quibble with DL's intensely vicious portrayal of MM. Isn't she supposed to be likeable to the unaware? Bening's portrayal is the complete opposite - so candy sweet, she's as obviously evil as GC. Now CF's Valm nt. Well.... Ladies, by whom would you rather be seduced? Oops, sorry, trying to show the proper decorum. (Karen) My only quibble on casting is Sian Phillips as Cecile's mother. She could be playing MM's mother more credibly. LOL!! Though I'd have to say she beats Swoosie Kurtz by a mile. (And I like SK.) (MT's possible mistrust of MM) However, by the end, she knows (remember the scene in Cecile's bedroom) that her daughter has been with Valmont and that a duel was fought over that point of honor. You bring up an interesting point unrelated to the above - the whole town would surely know of the duel (illegal as they may have been at the time). How do you think the purpose was explained and if Cecile was supposed to be the cause, wouldn't Gercourt start to wonder if his little honey was still pure and unadulterated? Perhaps the book will tell. Comparing Valmont to MM: how about Valmont had a conscience, MM did not. (Evelyn) And at one point she tells Valmont: "Want to know why I never remarried...because I didn't want to take orders". Sums her up pretty well. Perhaps her husband cheated, surely she cheated on him. She tells Valmont he sounds like a husband. About the worst thing she could call him?

Just to say that I am very impressed, as always, with the perceptive and interesting discussions which CF's movies stimulate! Your comments are much appreciated and enjoyed. I'm a reader, rather than a contributor at the moment.

(Karen), Well, C�cile was a virgin until..., but she's more than interested in finding out all there is to know about love, marriage, sex, etc., and believes herself in love with Danceny. She's very excited to be getting married initially (pre-Danceny). Do you mean that she's to play that part for Gercourt? Not play the part, she would have been a virgin on her wedding night had it not been for MM inciting V to play his seduction game with her. We don't see AB's full-blown demasking until V's proposal scene near the end, which I think is good. We're not sure up to this point of her true character, just as we haven't been entirely sure of Valmont. Both come out then. Yes, and wasn�t that brilliant! Which brings me back to M de Vol. How could she trust MM? Was MM so discreet that no rumor about her exploits and her affair with Gercourt ever reached the ears of M de Vol? Yes, otherwise, MdV would not have let MM be so close to C�cile. M de Vol is well-aware of Valmont's reputation and she corresponds with MT (in the book) and tells her unequivocally what he is. MT�s house in Paris is small servants lacking etc. which makes me think her social position is much lower than MdV. Why would she constantly correspond with her? In the movie we are led to believe that it is MM who warns MT of his reputation. It�s a much stronger scene this way. How MT ended up visiting with V�s aunt is something that might be said in the book, Karen? However, by the end, she knows (remember the scene in Cecile's bedroom) that her daughter has been with Valmont and that a duel was fought over that point of honor. Not exactly. Let�s not forget the other reason for the duel , which one may dare say the reason: V hit MM. Paris society would accept this as a reason and C�cile would still be the innocent virgin for G. I don�t think G would have married her otherwise. Valmont like many men are uncomfortable when feelings of real love confront them. Being cruel, running away, driving off that person who has or can have power over you is their first reaction. Denial, pure and simple. Of course MT made it easy for him by staying with her husband. But, if V loved her, why leave the flowers at all. Wouldn�t he be angry with her? Or is he so vindictive as to want her to see the flowers and think that he loves her and she blew it? How would it look for the great lover Valmont to have fallen hopelessly in love? People might laugh at him. Well, he did propose to MM, and, she did laugh at him! Is it heart-felt? Is she sorry she drove Valmont over the edge with that little scene in her salon? Is it heart-felt? Is she sorry she drove Valmont over the edge with that little scene in her salon? Probably, they were two of a kind. He had gone to her in all earnest. Had they married, they both might have become better persons. Just a thought. Valmont had experienced true love. MM wasn't capable of it maybe. What does the book say Karen? Just the way their love-making is photographed, all that whirling around and tenderness (her tears) I think is Forman's way of showing us that it is for real on both their parts. Real emotions are on display. The streets outside are a big mess and quite confusing to get around. Just like V�s relationship with MT. It was at that point that MM and Valmont had their affair, but I haven't gotten to the point where they break up and why. Let us know. Isn't Moon referring to the second night with MT? Yes, I was. I did sense a sadistic quality in her nature. But not as much as Glenn C. Perhaps, her husband cheated on her and now she was going to take it out on all men. How else to account for the level of vengefulness we see in her. She has to be in control at all times. Perhaps, she was very happy with her husband and after his death she was seduced by someone who turned out to be a real jerk. That could have been her turning point, that would explain the reason for her need to be in control at all times and not controlled by anyone.

Interesting that in Valmont the film, there seems to be no connection between MT and MV at all. I see from the book (and I'm just in the beginning) that MV apparently had a hand in arranging MT's marriage. Which explains why, as Karen mentioned earlier, it is MV who writes to MT to warn her of of his character. I believe though that the film wants us to think it is MM who is writing to MT, hence no thread shown between MT and MV in the film. Another ploy Forman used to show MM's devious nature? I agre with Moon that it is a stronger scene using MM as the device. (Moon) Of course MT made it easy for him by staying with her husband. But, if V loved her, why leave the flowers at all. Wouldn�t he be angry with her? Or is he so vindictive as to want her to see the flowers and think that he loves her and she blew it? He has no reason to be angry with her. She did to him what he has done to countless others. To me, leaving the flowers is a sign of surrender and of love. He knows he's lost her. He's telling her she's won. She's not the kind of woman though who would have considered this as a victory. (Karen) I think we're talking about two different scenes No, actually I was referring to the last scene of Valmont with MM. He thinks he is finally going to collect on his bet as she leads him toward the bedroom only to fling the doors open to reveal poor, clumsy Danceny.

(Heide),To me, leaving the flowers is a sign of surrender and of love. He knows he's lost her. He's telling her she's won. She's not the kind of woman though who would have considered this as a victory. OK, I'll buy that. But Heide, V comes to collect on his bet when MM is taking a bath, remember? She gets on the bed with legs open and he can't bare to do anything.

(Moon) Not play the part, she would have been a virgin on her wedding night had it not been for MM inciting V to play his seduction game with her. I saw Cecile as being very eager. She may have gotten Danceny to do more than just leave her notes in the harp with or without MM's intervention. How MT ended up visiting with V�s aunt is something that might be said in the book, Karen? I'll take another look toward the beginning, but I don't think it says anything. Well, he did propose to MM, and, she did laugh at him! But that was private. The other type was all of society laughing at him. Ridicule. Perhaps, she was very happy with her husband and after his death she was seduced by someone who turned out to be a real jerk. That could have been her turning point, that would explain the reason for her need to be in control at all times and not controlled by anyone. That issue of *control* makes me think MM married young and since we all know she's an extremely intelligent woman, couldn't stand an inferior husband telling her what to do and with whom. I'd say total disillusionment with marriage. (Heide),To me, leaving the flowers is a sign of surrender and of love. He knows he's lost her. He's telling her she's won. She's not the kind of woman though who would have considered this as a victory. Another thought. I just saw something (TV or movie, can't remember) where a woman berated her boyfriend/fiance for not coming after her. Valmont left the flowers to show her that he came after her. That he had changed and he really wanted her. Not just as a lover, but perhaps more.

(Moon) But Heide, V comes to collect on his bet when MM is taking a bath, remember? Yes and I'm sorry for not explaining myself very well. I know the bath scene is when he comes to collect his bet. The second scene that I'm referring to, it appears to Valmont that he is going to bed MM, therefore collecting on his bet. I think we mentioned this scene in reference to when V. loses his will and I had said he had come to MM to reclaim his happiness by collecting on his bet. Poor description by me since V. has already resigned himself to not collecitng on it. But it appears he is trying to get back in MM's good graces, tryin to blot out MT's rejection of him. Don't wish to draw the condescension of others (oh, why the hell not) but: Favorite Colin look: drunk, disheveled, and unshaven after getting off his horse to meet D. for the duel. Even with the shadows under his eyes, he looks delectible to me. It's the mixture of relief at being punished for the misery he has caused and affront for being challenged by this silly boy when the real schemer is sitting smugly at home.

(Moon) Let�s not forget the other reason for the duel , which one may dare say the reason: V hit MM. Paris society would accept this as a reason and C�cile would still be the innocent virgin for G. I don�t think G would have married her otherwise. Bad me!! Skipped ahead to the end of the book and Danceny's note to Valmont is provided. Apparently, Danceny felt that Valmont had abused him, used him. No mention of MM or Cecile. Best little insight: MV is still an idiot even at the end. She writes a letter to M de Rosamunde, bewailing the fact that MM's reputation is being sullied by Danceny's showing people MM's letters to V. She refuses to believe that MM could be so manipulative, cruel, etc. Question: In the Cecile seduction scene, does anyone remember their impressions the very first time they saw it. I remember thinking it was cute, but when he stood up and started removing his coat, I felt a little repulsed. Of course, I no longer feel that way, but anyone?????

One last item: Why do you think he changed his mind? Was it the rejection by MT or did he find those feet flailing in the air irresistible? He had not wanted any part of MM's little intrigue...it was beneath him. So why did he change his mind?

It's hard to put aside my feelings for the actor when figuring out my felings during his seduction of Cecile. I think I was nervous that it would be a "rape" scene and was relieved that the scene was manipulated to make us think that Cecile was not repelled. I know that's a very fine line to tread. Forman dare not let us believe for a moment that he thinks raped women really want it. And I know this scene does turn some women off though I think the DL scene is more dangerous. Does Forman "reassure" u by having Cecile agree with MM that Valmont is indeed a very fine writer and her saying that there were times when she felt like she loved him? Would Valmont have stopped if she had fought him? Was she too terrified to fight him? Another good question, Karen, is why he changed his mind in the first place about seducing her. I think he is disturbed by MT's pleading with him to leave. He's failed for the moment. Probably figured, oh what the hell. After all, he is still a cad. Bedding fifteen year olds I'm sure was not that uncommon. And she is a sweet little thing. I'm sure those flailing feet were irresistable.

(heide)I'm sure those flailing feet were irresistable. Filmmakers and their feet. Does anybody remember Scorcese's contribution to "New York Stories"? Master painter and groupie/young painter; always these zooms in to her feet. Boy, folks, I don�t know where to begin! But I�m glad you did. I tried to start responding on a comment-by-comment basis, but it got very confusing for me. So I thought I�d just say how I looked at it as a film then and now, excluding everything else for now. I didn�t like V when it came out, for a few reasons. I had already read the V script (and didn�t like parts), read the DL script, and seen DL. Then I got ten years older (learning more about life and movies,) and I didn�t see it in the interim. I still haven�t read the book, but did have more interactions with Milos & Co. after seeing the film. Taking the film as a film, as much as I can: it seems to me the sequences go something like this: 1. MM finds she needs revenge on G, and chooses V as the weapon, but 2. V wants MT. 3. MM changes to CD for as tool for revenge, then 4. MM refocuses on V. 5. V opposes MM, which becomes 6. V crushed by (societal) forces he�s set off So it�s MM�s film, really, but it�s called Valmont, so that�s confusing. Then, the film opens and closes with Cecile�MM is in both scenes, but the first scene focuses on C, � I messed up who said what in all the processing of words. Please correct me if it matters, so others can follow your lines of discussion, and accept my profound apologies. I can�t do better today. (In addition to the sprain, I have Mouse Disease, caused by years of mousing. I am treating it with Chinese herbs, and am learning to mouse with my left hand. So it�s kind of like dueling when you�re drunk, this mousing.) (Moon on MT) He is taken by her, but I don�t believe he really loves her. He shows no remorse. (Moon on MM) I believe that he loves her. Moon's put her toe first in the water here. This should be an interesting debate. I think he loves them both in different ways. (Moon) She had written a letter to her husband but then we see him still at home. There is no explanation for this. Agreed, at least not from the film. I would guess, without looking at other sources, that he has either returned home despite the letter or she has asked him to return him, probably throwing herself at his feet. No MM she. I thought he came home from his trial�it�s house, where else would he go? It was interesting that he was old and bald on top, and the juxtaposition of the husband (Arami or someone, what would MT�s husband�s initials be? Since he�s a judge, wouldn�t his first initial be different, and thus we could use it to distinguish the two of them?) Evelyn (Heide)Which brings us to the interesting debate of love for MM or love for MT or both or none. Anyone ready to tackle that yet? The foreword to my book has a Harry Levin from Harvard saying: than a femme fatale ....a self-professed Delilah , with a vengence of hate to wreak on the opposite sex" We don't have to accept this perspective, but I thought it interesting. I saw her really hating men as a genre...enjoyed injuring them...even Valmont. Obviously, she only loved herself too. Did I see somewhere that Harry said this in the 60s, or did I dream it? Men always think they�re simpler and less harmful. From the movie, MM seemed self-destructive. I�ll think this through later. Moon Dreams (Moon) During the film when the above seduction is taking place, did you notice the film gets very grainy on that close up? I wonder if Milos filmed it as a wider shot but then changed his mind and had to zoom in and re-film directly from the film. Cheryle, can you answer this? Will be talking to someone in the know in the next couple of weeks. (CherylE) A fun fact I learned about a month ago: did you know that PAL tapes run almost 5% faster than NTSC tapes� I put links about this on 97 (Evelyn) My question to Cheryle (when you have time) : Did you get any knowledge of how CF personally interpreted the character of Valmont.? Did he and MF see "eye -to -eye ? This is for later ;-0 Lucie (alyeska) I seemed to me that so much happened at once that V lost his will to live his plot to bring Cecile and Chevalier together failed, then he found Chevalier in MM's bed. MT went back to her husband. I think he really loved MM but when she took such delight in showing him that she had seduced Chev. he really saw how corrupt she was. In the end when Chev was in the balcony laughing with the girls, the look MM gave him made me think that she is going to make him pay dearly for killing V. Karen (Evelyn) My question to him would be: why did he feel that an accent was necessary for the lead male and not for the others? Very true, Evelyn. He didn't feel the same way in casting other period films like Amadeus. Perhaps there was something in the character of Valmont that he didn't feel would be believable with an American accent. I have a theory I�ll run by you later.

go away italics!

Whew! (Moon) It is certainly Annette�s movie as well and she is wonderful. Totally agreed here. I now agree as well. I hated her in the old days, and even now there are things I don�t like, but I think she does the job very well. �in a later scene when MT is being mocked at the dinner table by the more worldly guests, he takes up her defense or at least deflects the attention from her. Is he defending her or is this just a ploy in his quest to seduce her? Definitely ploy. Total act. He's been trying to show MT that he isn't anything like the reputation he has throughout Paris, and she's halfway believing him. Naive little simp. I�m halfway believing him. I love the way it�s not clear! I love the way we don�t know what he�s really up to! MM wants all of Paris to laugh at Gercourt after he finds out Cecile is not pure. How would all of Paris know this? Would Gercourt admit this to anyone? MM would make sure everyone knew. She would probably have started spreading the rumor at the wedding ceremony itself had not the other events transpired. Absolutely. And everyone would want to believe it, such delicious gossip. Is Valmont a better human being than MM?...He sounds truly contrite when he apologizes for sending D. to challenge her. Well, I don't know about better....;-) but he is definitely not as cruel as she is. MM looks very contrite at V's funeral and at Cecile's wedding. She looks totally broken. Is it heart-felt? Is she sorry she drove Valmont over the edge with that little scene in her salon? Who knows. However, I didn't see Colin's Valmont as being cruelly sadistic as AB's MM was. It was a game for him and her only way of life. Valmont had experienced true love. MM wasn't capable of it maybe. I don�t know about "true", but otherwise I ditto everything. This is part of my thinking on how she�s self-destructive. She�s so busy trying not to be controlled that she�s at the mercy of consequences of actions she herself began. (is that English?!) That parlor dance. Look at the expressions on MT's face. Is she interested or what? I thought that was one of the most brilliant scenes I�ve ever seen in movies. Works in the movie, and on a universal level, blah, blah. I loved it, in addition to its beauty, its elegance as a film scene, and its marvelous execution. (Renate) This Valmont seems to be a big boy, not very passionate, but to whom making love is as natural as drinking and eating or any kind of sportive activity. Interesting observation. Seducers come in all flavors. There are your suave debonair types and your cute as a button puppy dog types. Colin's Valmont is smooth alright, but he's a cutie with dogged persistence and humor. (Moon) I still preferred it GC�s. Annette was coquettish and very feminine (flirty eyes and all). I could understand why V would be v. taken by her, even after his many conquests. But is he taken with her or has he resigned himself to hooking up with her because of their true natures. Two of a kind. It wouldn't be right to pursue MT seriously when he was a scoundrel at heart. He wouldn't have to be or try to be anything other than himself with MM. Who better than your best friend and confidante? Keep thi king about the lawyer-shark jokes: professional courtesy! Agree. He is taken by her [MT], but I don�t believe he really loves her. He shows no remorse. I still think he's in denial that he actually has those feelings. I think he's positively crushed when she leaves him that night. He sits there drinking wine and thinking about what has happened and what he should do. Just the way their love-making is photographed, all that whirling around and tenderness (her tears) I think is Forman's way of showing us that it is for real on both their parts. Real emotions are on display. It�s gotta be confusing to a guy, just as it was confusing to MM to see him taken with her. They�re actually having a life, changing with experience, and that threatens your denial like crazy. What if MM found herself wanting V desperately? It cannot be! We are led to believe that there was something between the two of them in the past when she says � still love you, you know." It�s true, and it�s also manipulative. At the beginning of the book, MM solicits Valmont's help with the Cecile seduction because he too has something against Gercourt. That makes tons of sense to me. (Heide) My impression is that he lost his will when he found MT had returned to her husband. Yes, I think it occured then. He had put her up on a pedestal and really did not think her capable of being another one of those society ladies who kept lovers. When she came to him, he would have thought that she was desperately in love with him and had already left her husband (the letter she had written after the first time) and would take whatever crumbs he would throw her way. But had she in fact returned to him? I thought she had just disappeared. He disappeared first. Now it�s shockingly done to him, and he finds it matters. Again, I just take it as confusion. (Evelyn) And at one point she tells Valmont: "Want to know why I never remarried...because I didn't want to take orders". Sums her up pretty well. Perhaps her husband cheated, surely she cheated on him. She tells Valmont he sounds like a husband. About the worst thing she could call him? Sounds right to me. Heide? Valmont like many men are uncomfortable when feelings of real love confront them. Being cruel, running away, driving off that person who has or can have power over you is their first reaction. Denial, pure and simple. How about, many people? MM is a fine example of that, when V comes to her at the end. And, the best way I know of to stay out of a relationship I know is to be in one with problems (well yes he/she is married but; well yes she/he IS not really good enough for me but I�ll stay until x; well everyone has affairs; so what if he/she/we/I is/are/am a drug addict/alcoholic/gambler/workaholic/allergic to children/incapable of spending time by themselves/whatever. How would it look for the great lover Valmont to have fallen hopelessly in love? People might laugh at him. Well, he did propose to MM, and, she did laugh at him! And it�s always cool to be cynical, even if it�s miserable Isn�t it odd that we always think being pessimistic is the smart move? Valmont had experienced true love. MM wasn't capable of it maybe. And she�s jealous. They�re both jealous when it seems someone else might come between them, in their twisted relationship. (Karen) I think we're talking about two different scenes No, actually I was referring to the last scene of Valmont with MM. He thinks he is finally going to collect on his bet as she leads him toward the bedroom only to fling the doors open to reveal poor, clumsy Danceny. I didn�t think it had to do with the bet. I thought he was so glad to be on intimate terms again with someone, someone who could accept him as was, and then she stabbed him and twisted the knife�no, I care nothing for our connection, and furthermore, here�s what I�ve done with your little lovebird. This is how "love" turns out. (Karen )Perhaps, she was very happy with her husband and after his death she was seduced by someone who turned out to be a real jerk. That could have been her turning point, that would explain the reason for her need to be in control at all times and not controlled by anyone. That issue of *control* makes me think MM married young and since we all know she's an extremely intelligent woman, couldn't stand an inferior husband telling her what to do and with whom. I'd say total disillusionment with marriage. In addition, I often sing praises to the Universe that I am a woman today and not in the past. I hate how hampered I am now by people�s prejudices about women, and I know I could never comprehend how bad it was even 50 years ago. I have all the compassion in the world for almost every woman born before 1970, and maybe almost all of us period. Question: In the Cecile seduction scene, does anyone remember their impressions the very first time they saw it. I remember thinking it was cute, but when he stood up and started removing his coat, I felt a little repulsed. Of course, I no longer feel that way, but anyone????? I was pissed and would have called the Child Protection Agency, except they wouldn�t get there quick enough. I don�t care if it was a movie. (KarenR) One last item: Why do you think he changed his mind? Was it the rejection by MT or did he find those feet flailing in the air irresistible? He had not wanted any part of MM's little intrigue...it was beneath him. So why did he change his mind? He was heated and hopeful from MT. His dictation of the letter was to her; his lovemaking was to her.

(Cheryle),He was heated and hopeful from MT. His dictation of the letter was to her; his lovemaking was to her. I like this Cheryle. That would change our P.O.V. of Cecile's seduction scene. He does not seduce a child but a woman. More later.

I like your explanation too, Cheryl. I've wondered if he was really writing to MT but then thought it too simplistic. But why let it get too complicated? You've sold me. (Cheryl) So it�s MM�s film, really, but it�s called Valmont, so that�s confusing. Agree it's confusing. Any idea on why the title Valmont was chosen? (Cheryl on MM) This is part of my thinking on how she�s self-destructive. She�s so busy trying not to be controlled that she�s at the mercy of consequences of actions she herself began. (is that English?!) It certainly is English. Couldn't have said it better myself and rarely have. The dance scene was mentioned again and it is my favorite scene in the entire movie. Valmont may be a rascal but he sure knows how to make the ladies happy. Look at how his aunt adoringly looks at her handsome nephew. Love watching the faces of the onlookers while he partners another lady. Love how he blatently looks at MT while dancing with MM, succeeding quite well in annoying MM.

Oh, oh! Thank you all for your good wishes re my absence. I did miss you...I'm buying a computer next week for home, so I won't be as constrained in the future as to when I can read and post. (Moon Dreams)I like this Cheryle. That would change our P.O.V. of Cecile's seduction scene. He does not seduce a child but a woman. Maybe. But to my sensibility, absentmindedly prying apart the legs of a child while hot for someone else is one of the world's many wrongs. I don't always think of a 15 year old as a child, but given V's age and position, she's an infant. (heide)I like your explanation too, Cheryl. I've wondered if he was really writing to MT but then thought it too simplistic. But why let it get too complicated? You've sold me. V whole dictation keeps "breaking character", not really from C to D. (Cheryl) So it�s MM�s film, really, but it�s called Valmont, so that�s confusing. Agree it's confusing. Any idea on why the title Valmont was chosen? Yup, and I think it's been touched on above, but I'll say my piece when we're ready to include outside influences ;-) The dance scene was mentioned again and it is my favorite scene in the entire movie.... And it's such a great snapshot of V with 4 stages in a woman's life. Oh, so carefree and harmless (heh,heh,heh.) (I really do have major attitude about Milos and the film, I'll try to be good till later . . .) As Nan would say, BWWWAAAHHHAAAHHHAAAHHHAAA!!!!

(Heide) Bedding fifteen year olds I'm sure was not that uncommon. (Cheryl)I was pissed and would have called the Child Protection Agency. (Moon Dreams) He does not seduce a child but a woman. LOL, Cheryl! I have read in another boring history book that the age of consent for females in England was actually 12 until early 19th century! I imagine France would not have been different. (However, general views and practice had been evidently changing during Jane Austen's times: e.g., she didn't imply that Lizzy was an old spinster at 21, and both Lydia and Georgiana are described as mentally immature for a sexual relationship at 15. I believe these were quite progressive ideas then!) (Cheryl)(Arami or someone, what would MT�s husband�s initials be? For myself, I don't remember off hand if MT's husband had a first name, but why not just call him JT? But perhaps that other someone will have a better suggestion? :-) Perhaps there was something in the character of Valmont that he didn't feel would be believable with an American accent. I have a theory I�ll run by you later. Cheryl, you so tantalizingly defer so many replies! :-) Can't wait for your own computer... Any idea on why the title Valmont was chosen? Maybe simply because he was a more sympathetic character, more complex and capable of reform, and she was ultimately just a scheming bitch? ;-)

(Moon Dreams)I like this Cheryle. That would change our P.O.V. of Cecile's seduction scene. He does not seduce a child but a woman. (Cheryl) I don't always think of a 15 year old as a child, but given V's age and position, she's an infant. Let us not forget that Cecile is going to marry Gercourt shortly, so 15 is marriageable. Given the bedroom antics that were going on, they couldn't keep them virginal much past that time. ;-) (Heide) Any idea on why the title Valmont was chosen? Who said we can't bring in any outside references yet? In Forman's Memoirs, he does allude to it. He admits to not sticking religiously to the book and instead intended to concentrate on the character of Valmont. I do believe that DL is much more MM's movie than is Valmont. In DL, it begins and closes with MM looking at herself in a mirror. She looks young and vibrant, fresh in the morning in the opening scene, but at the end she is removing that hideous white face powder that makes her look like dea h warmed over.

(Arami)(Cheryl)(Arami or someone, what would MT�s husband�s initials be?) For myself, I don't remember off hand if MT's husband had a first name, but why not just call him JT? But perhaps that other someone will have a better suggestion? :-) I didn't think he had a first name, but I figured that if he's a judge, he had a title, and you always know that sort of thing---what judges in late 18c Paris were called. JT for Judge Tourvel is fine by me. Perhaps there was something in the character of Valmont that he didn't feel would be believable with an American accent. I have a theory I�ll run by you later. Cheryl, you so tantalizingly defer so many replies! :-) Can't wait for your own computer... (Karen)Who said we can't bring in any outside references yet? In Forman's Memoirs, he does allude to it. He admits to not sticking religiously to the book and instead intended to concentrate on the character of Valmont. Gosh. Ok. If our co-host has fired the gun, then I'm off to the races. As it's a marathon, and I do have my Mouse Disease, I'll take it piece by piece. I get all mixed up if I don't start at the beginning with the first sequence, because I forget who's said what about this or that. Or maybe it's the storyteller in me--beginning, middle, and end. Anyway. No complex theories. Valmont is Milos, and he thinks he's a great guy. He thinks most men are great guys. He thinks men simply cannot cause as m ch harm to women as women can to men. And that's the problem with the script, and that's the problem Colin had with the part, IMHO. Passive characters don't work. If you're writing about yourself, the main character is usually passive, since we perceive things as happening to us. And I don't think he saw it as passive, and it was not cool when I brought it up with someone. I'll defend my thesis, as well as others, as I go through. It's the most common thing in the world. If I had a dollar for every time I sat in a class and heard, "You're not treating your character badly enough." "Your character is too good." Etc., etc. It's a given with me that it was a good choice to have V a charming, light seducer. But at the end, when MM says, "you're a very bad man," I didn't get it. Gotta go but I look forward, etc. (Karen)Let us not forget that Cecile is going to marry Gercourt shortly, so 15 is marriageable. Given the bedroom antics that were going on, they couldn't keep them virginal much past that time. ;-) I buy that. I think my perspective is twisted, since I haven't read the book and I haven't spent time with that character. I'm reacting from my own prejudices. (Karen)I do believe that DL is much more MM's movie than is Valmont. In DL, it begins and closes with MM looking at herself in a mirror. She looks young and vibrant, fresh in the morning in the opening scene, but at the end she is removing that hideous white face powder that makes her look like death warmed over. I haven't seen DL in all these years, but I do remember that powder. I'll watch it again. At the time, I was immersed in V.

Ladies, I have been lurking, the discussions are both insightful and provocative, I have but little to add, so with Heidi's encouragement, here goes: 1. Valmont -- it's success, or lack of it. We agree that Valmont was well done, just not well received. There were so many things that worked against it. a. Amadaues -- unless Forman's next movie was an even bigger success , it will be considered a failure. b. Such a young cast -- in 1989, MT was probably the only name known to American audience. (I didn't hear about AB until she started to date Warren Batey. c. Timing -- in this case, second was last place. 2. V's most seductive seduction scene. a. My vote goes to the dance scene. He is charming 4 women, all different ages, each in their own way comes under his spell. 3. V's most disgusting action. a. "something about your husband's nose." This was a turnoff for me, it shows how indiscriminate V is with women, anyone will do, it's just another conquest. 4. Was MM in love with Gercourt? I hardly think so, she only wanted him for his wealth and position. (Jeffery Jones seems to be another Forman favorite, he was the emperor in Amadaues.) 5. When did MT fall for V? Little by little, but the deciding moment was when they were dancing, she was completely under his spell. The way they looked at each other, the dancing and the acting were both superb. 6. V's most tender moment. In MT's room, when she asked him to go away, his eyes seem to be full of tears. "And this is what you want?" He knows that success soon be his. 7. Re: the Cecileseduction scene. I too think it's cute. V is so playful, and so easily distracted by a pair of pretty legs. I don't think it was premeditated. I agree with Cherly that he was thinking of MT all the while. BTW, no one has mentioned the "butt" double in this scene, wonder if she was listed in the credits, imagine having that job ;-)) Re: (Cheryl) Valmont is Milos... Are we talking Titanic "King of the World" ? This is turning into quite an educational board! Actually, I enjoy "bad" characters, they seem to have all the fun. And is it true that many actors like to play the badie, because the characters are much more complex and demanding to play?

Oh, Emma, glad you've come to play. I think you've brought up three very significant reasons for Valmont's "failure" with c being perhaps the most important, in my mind. Your point with lack of well known names is well taken too though I guess I'd have to say that Amadeus prospered without well known names. Still, I too remember only having heard of Meg Tilly when it first came out. And she was never a draw for me. Oh, if only I had known what I was missing! (Emma) no one has mentioned the "butt" double in this scene, wonder if she was listed in the credits, imagine having that job ;-)) Come on, Cheryl, 'fess up.

Would that it were so. I mean, to look like that. It's really not easy to be exposed to the other actors and crew. But then I guess you'd have to be an exhibitionist to sign up for that job. I do know someone who was Val Kilmer's subject while he learned to be a masseuse for some role recently. Rendezvous at his hotel suite, 20 times, an hour each; he was an enthusiastic student. Now that's an assignment..............sorry, forgot what I was doing..........

(Heide) Comparing Valmont to MM: how about Valmont had a conscience, MM did not. (Karen) Valmont had experienced true love. MM wasn't capable of it maybe. (Moon) What does the book say Karen? The book (MM herself!!) exposes her character through one particular letter (No. 81) to Valmont. It is v.long, so I will do only bits of it. She is a self-made woman. She created herself and left out those feelings which would be considered weak and typical of her sex. To achieve her objective, MM could not be helplessly in love nor could she have a conscience. In a way, she made herself over to be a typical man, without conscience in his conquest of women and in control over the course of the affair when it begins and ends).(MM on her life)...you have seen me controlling events and opinions; turning the formidable male into the plaything of my whims and fancies; depriving some of their will, others of the power to hurt me....I have kept my reputation untarnished...that I, who was born to revenge my sex and master yours... When have you known me to break the rules I have laid down for myself or to betray my principles? I say 'my principles' intentionally. They are not, like those of other women... I have created them: I might say that I have created myself. At my entrance into society I was still a girl, condemned by my status to silence and inaction, and I made the most of my opportunities to observe and reflect....I paid little attention, in fact, to what everyone was anxious to tell me, but was careful to ponder what they attempted to hide. This useful curiosity...taught me to dissemble....I tried...to control the different expressions on my face. When I felt annoyed I practised looking serene, even cheerful ...I went so far as to suffer pain voluntarily so as to achieve a simultaneous expression of pleasure. I labored with the same care...to repress symptoms of unexpected joy. In this way I was able to acquire the power over my features at which I have sometimes seen you so astonished. (MM on love/pleasure)I proceeded a virgin into the arms of Monsieur de Merteuil...I awaited the moments of enlightenment with confidence, and had to remind myself to show embarrassment and fear...I took exact account of pains and pleasures, regarding the various sensations simply as facts to be collected and meditated upon...My studies soon became a delight. But faithful to my principles...I decided, for the very reason that I had become susceptible to pleasure, to appear in his eyes as impassive. This apparent frigidity proved later to be the unshakeable foundation of his blind trust in me...never did he think me more of a child than when I was most flagrantly deceiving him. [Note: She did not have other affairs.] It was here...that I confirmed the truth that love, which we cry up as the source of our pleasures, is nothing more than an excuse for them. [emphasis added] (MM on Valmont)...when you first favoured me with your attentions. No homage ever flattered me more. I desired you before I had seen you. Your reputation so impressed me that it seemed that only you could bring me glory. I longed to measure swords with you. This is the only one of my desires that has ever for a moment gained sway over me...It is true that I have since surrendered all my secrets to you: but you are aware of the interests that unite us... Sorry for this lengthy quot tion. Wish I could have summarized it, but her words are so fascinating. (Moon) But Heide, V comes to collect on his bet when MM is taking a bath, remember? She gets on the bed with legs open and he can't bare to do anything. Moon, you mentioned this earlier. Doesn't this scene clearly show the difference between V and MM. It seems to me that, if they were exactly the same, he would have *collected* on his bet regardless of her attitude of disinterest. She's mercenary enough. (Heide) Don't wish to draw the condescension of others (oh, why the hell not) but: Favorite Colin look So difficult to narrow down. I love the scene at the opera when he is introduced to Cecile. I also love when he gallops up to MT, sweeps her up into the saddle to shoot the arrow (OK, into the roast turkey) and then gallops off to the picnic in the clearing. Then, finally, the whirling and twirling heady love scene when MT comes to him. Argh, pure pain to watch. ;-D (Karen) He's been trying to show MT that he isn't anything like the reputation he has throughout Paris, and she's halfway believing him. (Cheryl) I�m halfway believing him. I love the way it�s not clear! I love the way we don�t know what he�s really up to! Yes, I'm really seeing the ambiguity in the book. His letters to MT. You don't know what is real and what he is making up just to get on her good side. Many were shown in DL. Forman must want to show that his Valmont's attentions to MT were truer, even though he may not have understood/known it himself. (Cheryl) And she�s [MM] jealous. They�re both jealous when it seems someone else might come between them, in their twisted relationship. Yes, MM is also jealous and she accuses V of the same in a letter before her Declaration of War. But I think she says this again to manipulate him�not that it's true. For V to be jealous, he would have to have deep feelings of love for her. He does not. She knows that he *loves* MT and his desire to return to her (MM) put her in second place, something she could not tolerate. (Heide) she leads him toward the bedroom only to fling the doors open to reveal poor, clumsy Danceny (Cheryl) I thought he was so glad to be on intimate terms again with someone, someone who could accept him as was Maybe not glad, but resigned to the fact that that was the best he could expect. A predictable life, with someone he understood and who did not have the capacity to touch his soul. (Cheryl) what would MT�s husband�s initials be? (Arami) why not just call him JT? But perhaps that other someone will have a better suggestion? :-) The only other info the book gives on the husband is that his position or title is Pr�sident, the presiding magistrate of a court of justice. His wife is the Pr�sidente. Still no way of differentiating. We could call her PT? ;-) (Cheryl) Valmont is Milos, and he thinks he's a great guy. Quite a bit of credence in what you say Forman did. From his memoirs: "the relationship between Valmont and Merteuil is like the strange flirtation that often develops between a director and his leading lady. At least that's what has always happened to me." (Cheryl) He thinks most men are great guys. He thinks men simply cannot cause as much harm to women as women can to men. With the exception of a Loreena Bobbit, I don't agree at all with that last statement. B-b-but, in Forman's defense, DL was also written by a man. ;-) (Cheryl) And that's the problem with the script, and that's the problem Colin had with the part, IMHO. Passive characters don't work...It's a given with me that it was a good choice to have V a charming, light seducer. But at the end, when MM says, "you're a very bad man," I didn't get it. I'm not sure it's the passivity that's the problem, but that Forman left so much out. The statement is so ironic because MM believes all men are bad. She simultaneously condemns/envies V because he subjugates women so easily via his looks, manners, position in society. It's in his nature as a man. BTW, wouldn't you say Frank Capra made characters who were essentially passive until the end (like V) interesting? It's a Wonderful Life, Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, Mr. Deeds Goes to Town, Meet John Doe. As you are rewatching DL, check out the use of letters at the beginning and end. Title sequence, opening the letter to show the name of the movie. Richness of the letter gives appearance of civility of manners. Ending letters pulled from Valmont's shirt after the duel: blood-stained. Nice touch! (Emma) V's most tender moment. In MT's room, when she asked him to go away, his eyes seem to be full of tears. "And this is what you want?" He knows that success soon be his. Does he know this? Or is his conscience kicking in? Anyone else have an opinion here?

Thanks for the book excerpts. The description begs the question whatever happened in her life to make her become such an expert at deception? That she is an extremely intelligent woman impatient and unaccepting of her sex's fate doesn't explain why she can not love. As long as she receives her pleasures she has no need for love. The letter is an interesting insight into her character. (Cheryl) And she�s [MM] jealous. They�re both jealous when it seems someone else might come between them, in their twisted relationship. (Karen) Yes, MM is also jealous and she accuses V of the same in a letter before her Declaration of War. And Valmont is certainly trying hard to arouse her jealousy. My favorite example of this when he dares to give his attention to MT even while dancing with MM. (Cheryl) I thought he was so glad to be on intimate terms again with someone, someone who could accept him as was (Karen)Maybe not glad, but resigned to the fact that that was the best he could expect. They've enjoyed playing their games for years. They enjoy one-upping each other. They're worthy competitors but I would gather from Forman's version that Valmont does not always play the game at MM's level - no one can be he comes closest. I'm not sure what's meant by Valmont being described as a passive character. I think of passive characters having things done to them rather than acting themselves. Valmont is a pawn but I think he acts with MT. Can you explain why you would consider Valmont as being passive?

(Cheryl) I do know someone who was Val Kilmer's subject while he learned to be a masseuse for some role recently. Rendezvous at his hotel suite, 20 times, an hour each; he was an enthusiastic student. Now that's an assignment..............sorry, forgot what I was doing.......... Hmmm, so where do we sign up? Karen, thanks for the fascinating passage from the book, shows MM's superior intelligence and level of self control. The symbolism in DL, when Glen Close powdered her face, she was in effect donning a mask to conceal her true nature. (sorry if someone has mentioned this already) ....I have kept my reputation untarnished...that I, who was born to revenge my sex and master yours... She would've made quite a wife for Henry VIII (I know, wrong country, wrong century, but MM would've "mastered" Old Henry.) I longed to measure swords with you. This is the only one of my desires that has ever for a moment gained sway over me...It is true that I have since surrendered all my secrets to you: but you are aware of the interests that unite us... (Heide) They've enjoyed playing their games for years. They enjoy one-upping each other. They're worthy competitors but I would gather from Forman's version that Valmont does not always play the game at MM's level - no one can be he comes closest. MM was interested in V because of his reputation, it became a challenge to beat V at his own game. Yes, I agree, in the end, the victories seem hollow if she cannot share her success with someone. Anyone care to comment -- MM was one for equal opportunities, an early feminist gone wrong.

(Heide) That she is an extremely intelligent woman impatient and unaccepting of her sex's fate doesn't explain why she can not love. It seems to me that she must just be afraid of the consequences. You know someone having that much influence over her. In whatever limited capacity she has for love, she did love Valmont but caused it to end. Or maybe it's like some kind of kinky sex thing like asphyxiation!! ;-) To each his own. (Emma) MM was one for equal opportunities, an early feminist gone wrong. Oooh!! What an idea!! Excellent observation, Emma. There are plenty of women like her in the workplace today. Unfortunately, they give the rest of us a bad name, which I wouldn't use here on a public board. ;-)

Thank you Karen for the insightful quotations. (the book): I might say that I have created myself. I paid little attention, in fact, to what everyone was anxious to tell me, but was careful to ponder what they attempted to hide. I tried...to control the different expressions on my face. When I felt annoyed I practised looking serene, even cheerful ...I went so far as to suffer pain voluntarily so as to achieve a simultaneous expression of pleasure. I labored with the same care...to repress symptoms of unexpected joy. In this way I was able to acquire the power over my features at which I have sometimes seen you so astonished. One can see how skillful AB was in her portrayal of MM. Her facial features where quite expressive even in concealing emotions. The last scene with V comes to mind. Certainly less of a charicature than GC in DL. But faithful to my principles...I decided, for the very reason that I had become susceptible to pleasure, to appear in his eyes as impassive.This apparent frigidity proved later to be the unshakeable foundation of his blind trust in me...never did he think me more of a child than when I was most flagrantly deceiving him. [Note: She did not have other affairs.] In the book she did not have other affairs??? What about V and G? See below: (MM on Valmont)...when you first favoured me with your attentions. No homage ever flattered me more. I desired you before I had seen you. Your reputation so impressed me that it seemed that only you could bring me glory. I longed to measure swords with you. This is the only one of my desires that has ever for a moment gained sway over me...It is true that I have since surrendered all my secrets to you: but you are aware of the interests that unite us... Was V her only affair in the book? (Karen ), It seems to me that, if they were exactly the same, he would have *collected* on his bet regardless of her attitude of disinterest. She's mercenary enough. This always puzzled me too. Why wouldn�t he collect on his bet right there, that�s what he came for. What else did he expect from her? Did his true feelings for her get in the way? Love? Favorite Colin look: I have a weakness for Colin on horseback and dancing. Just show me a smile! I'm really seeing the ambiguity in the book. His letters to MT. You don't know what is real and what he is making up just to get on her good side. Exactly! I still believe that she might have been his most hard earned conquest, but not true love. For V to be jealous, he would have to have deep feelings of love for her. He does not. She knows that he *loves* MT and his desire to return to her (MM) put her in second place, something she could not tolerate. I need proof. This is not clear to me. (Heide) she leads him toward the bedroom only to fling the doors open to reveal poor, clumsy Danceny (Cheryl) I thought he was so glad to be on intimate terms again with someone, someone who could accept him as was (Karen),Maybe not glad, but resigned to the fact that that was the best he could expect. A predictable life, with someone he understood and who did not have the capacity to touch his soul. But she did touch his soul. They were two of a kind. DL was also written by a man. A very vindictive man. Ouch! (Cheryl) And that's the problem with the script, and that's the problem Colin had with the part, IMHO. Passive characters don't work...It's a given with me that it was a good choice to have V a charming, light seducer. But I agree with Heide�s definition of a passive character. V is not a passive character. Many things happen because of him, he doesn�t just react, he acts. But at the end, when MM says, "you're a very bad man," I didn't get it. You�re a very bad man because you should have wanted me sooner and not have let me go. You have made me become like you. You have made me hate you. ( Karen), BTW, wouldn't you say Frank Capra made characters who were essentially passive until the end (like V) interesting? It's a Wonderful Life, Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, Mr. Deeds Goes to Town, Meet John Doe. If the JS characters were so passive, I wouldn�t feel so passionate about these films. Those are strong characters Karen. (Emma) V's most tender moment. In MT's room, when she asked him to go away, his eyes seem to be full of tears. "And this is what you want?" He knows that success soon be his. ( Karen), Does he know this? Or is his conscience kicking in? Anyone else have an opinion here? His conscience might be at work here, but, the next day she leaves and he follows her to her house and success is indeed his. If he were so conscientious, he would have accepted her departure and not kept insisting.

(Moon) In the book she did not have other affairs??? What about V and G? Sorry, if I was not clear. She did not have other affairs while she was married. She had plenty of other affairs once she came out of mourning. You couldn't believe how she plotted and planned her reentry into society and how she made sure that the right guys knew she was available (her mother wanted her to go into a convent!!) (Moon) This always puzzled me too. Why wouldn�t he collect on his bet right there, that�s what he came for. What else did he expect from her? Did his true feelings for her get in the way? Love? To me it just shows that they fundamentally are different animals. Also, she's dishonorable. I think this also shows her lack of class. Doesn't a gentleman always honor his bets? This lady was no gentleman. (Moon) I still believe that she might have been his most hard earned conquest, but not true love. I need proof. This is not clear to me. OK, let me get my book out later (I'll post this weekend). He writes many letters to MT, but there are two done in quick succession--one that he allows MM to read *before* he sends it because she will get a chuckle out of it and a second, which he doesn't let her review. The second contains some v.interesting comments about how MT reaches his soul. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear you cry. A bunch of hooey!! But I took it as perhaps his true feelings because he wouldn't share it with MM. (Moon) You�re a very bad man because you should have wanted me sooner and not have let me go. You have made me become like you. You have made me hate you. But MM did this all to herself. Valmont had nothing really to do with her choice of careers. She chose it herself and trained herself. I also get the feeling that she pushed him away to end their affair, although in the movie, didn't AB say something about "who would betray who first, this time" when V comes to see her and sort-of proposes they go back together. (Moon) Those are strong characters Karen. They're naive and idealist characters until the end when they get passionate and break out of their passivity. BTW, I don't believe Valmont is a passive character either. Both MM and V are actively manipulating people and each other throughout. It's just that MM doesn't play by M of Queensbury rules. ;-)

Some thoughts: Don't like MdM at all, but she seems to be a surprisingly modern woman for her times, when women, like MdT, were completely dependent on their husbands, and only gained a certain amount of personal freedom as rich widows or high class courtesans. So I understand her quite well when she defends her freedom fiercely. Sometimes I wonder what I would [like to] be if I lived in Choderlos de Lenclos' (or Austens) time, and I would rather be a MdM than MdT. (Colin let aside, that is. :-) ) And where are we now? I am not dependent on a husband or a lover, but I am dependent on my job. Speak about progress... :-p After all they won't throw me out of my bathtub. BTW: German TV is very good to us - VALMONT on Wednesday, Oct. 21 (VOX, 22.05h), and the day before, CIRCLE OF FRIENDS (Pro7, 20.15h). Good reviews for both.

Oh, you lucky thing! Except that... aren't those films dubbed? Shame... ;-)

V's most tender moment. In MT's room ( Karen), Does he know this? Or is his conscience kicking in? (moon)...If he were so conscientious, he would have accepted her departure and not kept insisting. Don't forget about that bet with MM, V would've had to be a "little Monk" had he lost. Why he did not collect on his bet: He must be more romantic at heart than he admits, the look of disgust on Colin's face was priceless...he was not about to make love to a women who didn't want him, the man does have his pride. V went through quite a few emotions in this scene, triumph, disgust, anger...how well CF plays these emotions.