Yeah!! Moon is ready. I'm hoping Cheryl and anyone else who ordered has their copy now too. How about November 22? We can start with 5 reasons why this video cover grossly (and I do mean the Americanized "gross") misrepresents the film. Porky's Goes to Amsterdam indeed.

The guy who designed that cover didn't see the film, for sure. I think maybe with used vids they do that . My Apartment Zero cover goes on and on about "starring Colin Firth (The English Patient)" Never mind that AZ was filmed eight years before TEP.

I'm here and OK. My RSI is flaring up and I have to ration my typing. Let's go! There have been so many funny things I've wanted to respond to but couldn't that day--work has to come first. Definitely looking forward to AZ as well; that one I have.

Cheryl and Kirsten - Have your copies arrived? Perhaps we should snap Riette to join us? A little Vincent Van Gogh tie-in? ;-)

(Karen)Cheryl and Kirsten - Have your copies arrived? No, not yet. But please don't wait for me. It may take weeks and weeks before I get it. Up to ten weeks from US to Europe, they mentioned at Reel, it has never taken such long time in the past, but who knows. And reading your comments before watching the film will only increase my anticipation. So, go on, please:-)

Not yet but any second. Please begin!

A snippet of *thigh* *sigh*

A glimpse of *thigh* *sigh*

How about starting our discussion on Monday?

Sure!!! seeing that I now HAVE the movie!

Mmm, can't wait. This will give me an excuse to re-watch DG over the Thanksgiving long weekend to look for tidbits to comment on. DG is definitely something to be thankful for :-)

Got the tape in the meantime and saw it several times since. And my first (amd last) thought was how terrible and embarrassing it must be to be a boy at that age. All those tortured, desperate souls. But Colin is gorgeous as Neil, so innocent and shy ... *sigh*

I know everyone is waiting on the edge of their seats for the answers to the questions but, since we're just starting Dutch Girls, could you (Arami or Renate) post those lovely and rare publicity pictures from your Treasure Trove?

I'm in exile because my pc crashed, so I cannot check anything - have to dig into my memory for the adresses of the still unlinked pics: Ok, I'll try:

Hope your pc gets well!

He looks great with the scarf wrapped around. Thanks Renate! Will be posting thoughts of DG's at a later date, too much going on right now on Topic 97. I am totally distracted!

Phew! It worked - to my greatest surprise. I watched DUTCH GIRLS again last night, and though my opinion of this film raises every time, I find it painful to watch in some passages, and I am not talking about the disgusting scenes (ick!). All the awkwardness of youth, the disappointments... it's a comedy, but with some painful truth. Something different: Some of you perhaps waiting for replies from me - please be patient. Though I have net access in exile while my pc is down, it is pretty inconvenient and never undisturbed to write from here. Got a nasty cold into the bargain, and have to go home now. *sniff*

Thanks for posting the pictures, Renate. They are gorgeous! (Renate) All the awkwardness of youth, the disappointments...it's a comedy, but with some painful truth. Definitely. Have just read the screenplay and the introductory essay by William Boyd about life in a boarding school. The awkwardness of youth is compounded by the *unreal* aspects of a monosexual existence. Won't dwell on the serious right now, but will start jotting down my favorite scenes, lines, etc. (Moon) I am totally distracted! Aren't we all. I need to rewatch DG and take some notes.

Thank you Renate....What a sensational Debut for our Dutch Girls discussion.(Hope you recover soon from your cold :-( Isn't that Wickham's shoulder that Colin is resting his head on?? (Grammarians pl. ignore sentence ending in preposition...am excited about doings on #97...cannot think straight....)

We're back up!! And I'll bet some of you didn't even know we were down. Adorable photos - even the close-ups turned out terrific. Those pink uniforms! Reminds me of Wickham's line to an uncomprehending Neil, "What girl's going to look at us in this get-up, you daft prat?". I still have to re-view the movie but forge ahead.

What,was there a Wickham too?

Not a Wickham - the Wickham! Adrian Lukis played one of the schoolboys.

the Wickham! Adrian Lukis played one of the schoolboys. Murray is his name. Is featured about four or five times times. Best line: when they're in the clubhouse disco ..and M. says "Get a load of that one in red" Simon: "Don't go a bundle on her face" M. "Who's looking at faces?" Have to watch DG again. Gets better every time.

I overheard friends discussing SIL on Tuesday--they had attended screening recently. They were quite surprised by my interest. Gentle readers...well, it's supposed to be pretty.

Oh, and I couldn't post till now. Sorry.

I mean, because we were down.

(Renate) All the awkwardness of youth, the disappointments... it's a comedy, but with some painful truth. That's exactly what I feel, watching Dutch Girls. There are a number of moments, which are quite familiar, remembering one's own teenage / school days: those school trips, where everybody is in utter excitement because boys and girls are spending all day together and the nights under the same roof - carefully housed in different wings [things are much easier in a �mixed school" ;-)). And the only interest is, how to escape without alarming the teacher in charge and rumours are flowering like flowers in th spring: who with whom?. The teachers eagerly trying to give the kids an minimum understanding of culture while their faces are glazed with boredom and the fatigue of the latest nuit blanche; the teachers trying to do a decent job, driven to despair by a load of teenagers behaving like silly toddlers. Or the awkward feeling when someone you're interested in is finally addressing you and you have not the slightest clue what to say or to do - let alone the guts to do it (a feeling not necessarily linked onl to teenage days;-/) So, it's not too difficult to sympathise with Neil - and the other lot, if you feel like it. That's all for today, later more, favourite moments etc.

Regardless of the fact that all the actors were too old to play at most 17-year-old school boys (Colin was 24 at the time of filming), I love watching Colin playing the awkward and naive Neil Truelove who lacks confidence in his own abilities in both sports as well as girls. He is just so good being shy around Romelia. You just want to oooh and aaah and put your arms around him and say poor baby. What a cutie, especially in his little shorts. In the opening sequence we get a closeup of Colin's eyes. I don't think we've ever seen them so big and so brown. Wow! Speaking of eyes, you shouldn't blink in the opening credits, otherwise you might miss the full monty. I know I did first time around. Another miss (I'm embarrassed to admit) was spotting Adrian Lukis initially. Now when I watch it, I wonder how could I have missed him in the headmaster's office as they receive their lecture on going to Amsterdam, but the first time it wasn't until t e disco scene when he orders the Bacardi and Cokes that I recognized him. He's a few inches taller than Colin, isn't he? From P&P, I had the impression they were the same height, but they don't exactly have too many scenes together there, do there? All of his scenes with Romelia are my favorites. In the first meeting, he is called over to the tree by the Sirens (love the vocalist in background) the light is streaming through the branches creating a magical effect. Then you have the backlighting on Romelia and Neil, illuminating their hair and faces. She smiles and stares at him unabashedly and he casts his eyes downward, hardly able to look at her, but he smiles totally embarrassed at each exchange of glances. He can't believe she is inviting hi to the disco. "Who? Me?" "Yes, you...and your friends, of course." Always the gentleman. "Yes, please." The first of his "yes pleases" as if someone had asked if he wanted another helping at the dinner table. Then there's that look of annoyance when Cone and Roote interrupt. I'm annoyed too! I don't want the camera to leave his adorable face. At the disco, Neil's watching of Romelia from the sidelines, shades of the Netherfield Ball's Darcycam. He can't get up the nerve to ask her to dance and his inaction allows Dundine to move in. (As Dundine tells Neil, "You've got to make your own chances" or "You can't just sit back and wait. Think someone will come along and say, 'Hey, I like you. Let's make the earth move, baby.'") One of my favorite sequences within this scene is when he's at the bar with Fforde (why two Fs anyone??) and is watchin Romelia dance with Dundine. Neil is lighting up a cigarette and she turns around and looks at him and gives him a superobvious wink. Then he exhales in the most *longing* gesture I've ever seen. Argh! Another choice sequence is Colin dancing with Romelia. Love his fast dancing; it's perfectly stiff and lacking in any rhythm. True to character. But the best is watching him react to Romelia, when she lassoes him with her arms to make sure he doesn't get away for the slow dance. He looks so uneasy. e's not sure what to do with his hands. There's a look of relief when she snuggles in against his shoulder. Finally, all's well with the world. **Love how Romelia keeps looking up at Neil as Dundine tries to whisk Neil away to go home. Looks like she's (1) disgusted with Dundine's interference and (2) trying to decide if she needs to do anything to ensure she will get to take him home with her!! At Romelia's house, now there's a scene for the books. She's tempting him again--siren music. When she takes off her sweater, could he be more stunned? Where are his eyes? Has a sweat broken out on his forehead? This is way more than he can process. More temptation: the lure of those so-called biscuits as she stretches up (braless) to reach the tin! R: "You want a biscuit?" Hungry?" N: "No thanks. R: "I am...You sure?" Sure, she's offering him a cookie. I dearly wanted to push him at her. Go for it Neil! What do you need an engraved invitation? At the bus when the team is leaving, I think Neil goes over to Romelia just to be polite because Neil is a polite kind of guy. When she tells him there was no *student friend* the look of anguish on Neil's face is palpable. His friend has betrayed him and he lost his chance with Romelia. Love how she puts her hand on his chest over his heart (wonder how fast it was beating?) and then he covers it with his own. Again, I just wanted to scream: "Kiss her Neil!" The longing, the pain, the anguish, the betr yal, the hatred. Colin's face shows it all. His body language as he strides past Dundine on the bus and slumps down by himself, looking dejected, but thinking all the while what to make of this experience. Actually, I blame it all on Mrs. Van Der Merwe. She should have sat down and had a little chat with Neil, taken him under her wing like a good mom. Did anyone think she was a dead ringer for Marion Ross (Mrs. Cunningham on Happy Days) in both appearance and her voice? Who buttons their pajamas all the way up to the top? Funniest Line: "Examine your footwear." (Kirsten) There are a number of moments, which are quite familiar...where everybody is in utter excitement because boys and girls are spending all day together and the nights under the same roof--carefully housed in different wings [things are much easier in a "mixed school"] I wonder though how much is lost on younger people today. I'm of the same age as the screenwriter but do not have the single-sex boarding school experience. And from what I remember, they weren't much easier even in mixed schools at that time (late 60s-early 70s).

The scenes Karen mentions between Romelia and Neil are my favorites too. He can't work up the nerve to do anything and if Dundine is in the picture, Neil just assumes he is the one Romelia would want anyway. Love the part when Dundine asks Romelia for a lift but she says, "Sorry, I am taking Neil." Then Neil mutters that Dundine can go but D. lets it go. 'Course then he says later that he hadn't expected much to have happened. Poor repressed boy. Neil in his buttoned-up pajamas, Neil all wrapped up in his bathrobe, Neil snug in his little twin bed with the covers pulled tightly under his chin. The other boys are looking at girlie magazines on the bus but not Neil. ANyone know what book he's reading? What part, if any, do you think Dundine played in Neil's weighted hockey stick? It's alluded to once in the film when D. says, "But he didn't have the magic stick, did he?" when talking about Neil's rival for the team. I wouldn't think Neil would do that on his own and he's so heavily influenced by Dundine. So then are we to gather that his flinging the hockey stick into the air at the end of the film not only signifies his rebellion against his rigid world but the end of his friendship, or at least his reliance, on Dundine? (Karen) Did anyone think she (Mrs. vd Merwe) was a dead ringer for Marion Ross (Mrs. Cunningham on Happy Days) in both appearance and her voice? LOL!! And what a gracious hostess.

Have you all noticed, that the producer is Sue B. (P&P and BBC). Apart from Wickham, there was a v. funny Bill Patterson (Yes, Minister series and The Witches: a film by my fav. Director Nicolas Roeg). It was v. well cast counting on our suspension of disbelief when it came to their ages. Neil Truelove, what a cool name! He did seem more like �puppylove� the sad eyes, his shyness, afterall, that�s all they talked about right: getting girls? Here was Romelia quite taken with him and what does he do? Nothing! Is it believable? When they are in her kitchen, no sweater, reaching for cookies, what holds him back? I�m baffled. Like you Karen, I wanted to push him to react. I did love the way he grabbed her hand when they were saying goodbye, it said so much. Funny how in the end, I felt he had more in common with his roomate than the other guys. Neil was disgusted by his behaviour but probably appreciated tha fact that he really acted on his word. He wanted the girl, he got the girl. BTW, he also had my fav. line �classique artist de pisoir�! Fav. look: the scarf. Can someone scan a pix, he looks so good! I was looking forward to his dancing but...not the disco type, and to that I add THANK HEAVENS! Loved the little sister, funny, smart and wicked.

This is one cute movie. And I wonder why the Disney Channel hasn�t picked it up ...it must be PG.(Well maybe Lyndon trying to shag Greetje...) Filmed in 1985, it must have been a poplular TV movie if it made the cover of TV Times. They guys might not look 17, but they act it...what a horny bunch . Poor Neil...a victim of the public school institutional mentality for ten years. Who could not express himself outside of his environment. Home life didn�t help: �I don�t hate it (school) because I�m far away from home....� Cheats to get on the hockey team. (BTW does anyone else think Dundine knew about the stick ...maybe even put him up to it?) Neil:�I thought Bucknell would get picked� Dundine:�Ah yes, but he didn�t have the magic stick , did he..� Dundine has a hold over him....his best friend. The team tour..only way to get away from school ? Sports prowess certainly helped in gaining popularity among peers. Agree that the close ups of the eyes are wonderful; they say so much. I can see why Sue Birdwistle was inspired to cast him as Mr. Darcy nine years later. Lots of Darcy looks...at the disco yearning to dance with Romelia... later at her house (lustful Darcy), meeting little Anna, the mischievous look he gives Lyndon, reminds me of the look as he approached Lizzie playing the piano at Rosings.And then there�s that scarf tied twice around his neck. Cast is excellent. Lyndon a little over the top at times (the houseguest from hell!) Mole is outstanding.But would someone pl translate the expression:�Milk it� The scene when Neil sees the girls is wonderful...almost dreamlike...misty...he can�t believe it. And at Romelia�s house when she offers him a biscuit, takes a bite herself...close-up of Neil watching her mouth reminded me of Mrs. Keach biting the apple. Favorite scene: when Romelia drops him off...he draws close to her...almost kisses her... loses his courage

(Heide) The other boys are looking at girlie magazines on the bus but not Neil. Anyone know what book he's reading? Author's name might be: Anthony ***ewell. Fill in the blanks. Means nothing to me. (Heide) What part, if any, do you think Dundine played in Neil's weighted hockey stick?I wouldn't think Neil would do that on his own. It hadn't occurred to me that Dundine told him to do it, although it's certainly possible. As his "best" friend, he would be aware of it. Are we to believe that Neil is that innocent, that pure? Don't know. He does share many of the normal vices, i.e., smoking, drinking, swearing. The stick represented (1) a way to meet girls and (2) being one of those guys on the team. Neil had to cheat because he lacks assurance in his own abilities to get on the team. (Heide) flinging the hockey stick...not only signifies his rebellion against his rigid world but the end of his friendship, or at least his reliance, on Dundine? He is going his own way, just as Lyndon advised. Neil is going to be his own man, an individual. He doesn't want to be like *them.* I take it as a given that their friendship is over. (Moon) When they are in her kitchen...what holds him back? I=m baffled. So is Neil. Remember how he asks Lyndon if he has discussions about girls/sex with his dad. He looks envious of their relationship. "The only thing my father ever told me was that 'women are a lifetime's study'...What if he's right? Because if he is, I've got off to a bloody slow start." Neil knows nothing and his father didn't help at all. (Moon) I did love the way he grabbed her hand when they were saying goodbye, it said so much. Do you think that she slipped her address in his breast pocket? Or is Neil going to address his letters to her in care of Kees or to Romelia, 20 miles outside of Amsterdam? (Moon) to that I add THANK HEAVENS! And for the fact that he never wears one of those beanies! On the subject of clothing, while I thought they all looked adorable in their pink sweaters or jumpers at hockey practice, is pink a representative school color in England or Scotland? Wouldn't be here. The pink blazers were a little difficult to take. (Evelyn) They guys might not look 17, but they act it...what a horny bunch. In other words, you found it realistic! ;-D (Evelyn) meeting little Anna, the mischievous look he gives Lyndon Yes, that was so cute. Lyndon was so hot to meet the *sister* and good old Neil wants to rub it in. (Moon) Loved the little sister, funny, smart and wicked. Loved what Lyndon said about her after that first dinner: "She's a right bitch, though...That little sprog Anna. I just hope that all Dutch girls won't be like her." (Evelyn) Lyndon a little over the top at times (the houseguest from hell!) Reminds me of another great line. When Dundine comes over to tell them the game has been canceled due to rain. He asks Lyndon, "What happened there?" To which Lyndon replies, "Oh...Winter." During that scene, Dundine did an excellent Eddie Haskell. (My mind must be in a time warp of old sitcoms.) "What a beautiful house you have...Very, very...tasteful. Very...Are you an interior designer by chance?" After those remarks, how else could Lyndon characterize Dundine to Neil at the outdoor cafe but as an oily bastard, a classic artiste du pissoir? (Evelyn) when Romelia drops him off...he draws close to her...almost kisses her...loses his courage. Wasn't that little move toward her subtle? Could barely tell that he was going to try. (Evelyn) Gets better every time. Agreed! ;-D

(Evelyn) Gets better every time. Agreed! ;-D YUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree that the business with the sister Anna is hysterical. I re-watched the first half again today and was reminded of one of my favorite lines. "Why don't you sit next to Anna, Lyndon Baines?" in that wicked voice. I also love the part where Neil is hanging around the disco trying to get courage to ask Romelia to dance. It reminds me of Darcy at the Netherfield Ball. All those intense looks. Mmmmm, in my best Lydia voice. (Evelyn) Gets better every time. (Karen) Agreed! ;-D Ditto! I'm enjoying it much more the second time around.

The only thing good about this movie is Giles' descent into madness! and that he is really cute! But overall, nah, I'll give you Anna, she's cute and my daughter thought she was very funny. The pink is way too jarring! I like James Wilby (Maurice is excellent!) Adrian Lukis is too nerdish. Sorry cannot be swayed on this one. I think Playmaker is better!

The only thing good about this movie is Giles' descent into madness! and that he is really cute! Thank you for quoting me, Laura. She is referring to *my* favorite thing about the whole movie, as anyone (Ann) can attest to. Watch for Giles in the background of various scenes, with the sunglasses, being carried out of the disco, taking a swig from a bottle, checking out the mags, etc. Loved when the other team's sponsor said that he knew his brother Mungo and asked how he was. Giles responds: "I'm afraid, he's in a sort of clinic..." By the end of the trip, poor Giles is hosting parties, having decided that hisd responsibility to become an example is too much and definitely not fair.

Add me to the list, Giles, is it! (Laura), I think Playmaker is better!. Now, you're ready to join Giles's brother in that clinic! I hope he's as cute as Giles. (heehee)

(Jana)my favorite lines. "Why don't you sit next to Anna, Lyndon Baines?" in that wicked voice. And the same mischievous smile that he gives Lizzy at the Netherfield Ball when her partner, Mr. Collins,goes the wrong way bumping into people. Giles "loses it" alright, Big Time. I wonder why Mole had the obsession with Van Gogh...obviously why he scheduled the tournament in Amsterdam. BTW, great shots of Amsterdam. Love it when they go into b/w cinematography. I've been down that "red light" district of Amsterdam....just like the movie.Only the girls aren't as attractive.The sit in the storefront windows.....polishing their nails, "scratching"...they didn't look fetching to me.

Cigarettes, swearing, drinking--just normal boyhood passges. Don't think cheating is so I continue to say Phil talked Neil into the weighted hockey stick. I'm sure Neil wants to get laid as badly as the other boys but being less "wordly" than suave-o Phil, would tend to follow his advice. What's with this reputation Dutch girls have anyway? Favorite secondary characters are Giles and Anna. Love when she screams at the top of the steps when Neil returns from Romelia's. Was it Moon who said she's "wicked"? I agree, she's a wicked imp.

(Heide), What's with this reputation Dutch girls have anyway? Not just Dutch girls but Scandinavian girls: I believe it has to do with having all that darkness: the night! They also drink heavily. Men of course love it.

Why is his name Lyndon Baines Jellicho? LBJ???? I asked Karen about it, and we couldn't figure out why he would be named after a US President?

Why is his name Lyndon Baines Jellicho? LBJ???? I asked Karen about it, and we couldn't figure out why he would be named after a US President? Maybe William Boyd is a Republican.

His name is Lyndon Baines Jellicoe. His parents are nouveaux riches with all the ostentation of elevated bumpkins and naming the kid after a US president was one example of it.

It's the noveaux riches obliges!

Please check 97 and tell me what to do!

Neil and his hockey stick, let's not let that theme go away. We can compare how his actions might have been influenced by Dundine and his stick to the point of his disgust for both. He then rids himself of both and is free. But, will he go back to Romelia? Probably yes.

I finally had time to re-watch the second half of DG. I loved the part at the disco when Neil finally got up the nerve to dance with Romelia. Boy our Neil just can't take a hint, can he? Poor Romey did just about everything but disrobe and still he didn't kiss her. I had also forgotten how hysterical the scene was when that hideous teacher of theirs lost some of the boys in the red light district. He was running back and forth trying to catch the strays and yelling at the rest of the boys to "look down, just look at your footwear" to avoid seeing anything suggestive. Too funny.

(Evelyn) I've been down that "red light" district of Amsterdam....just like the movie. Only the girls aren't as attractive. Isn't that the way it alway is? ;-) I only have vague memories of Amsterdam; it was so many years ago, but I did have to take a look at the red-light district! What did you think of the one and only prostitute who caught Mole's fancy? What do you think that tells us about his character? ;-) BTW, Evelyn, she would be considered 'zahftig' plus! (Laura) Why is his name Lyndon Baines Jellicho? LBJ? (Evelyn) Maybe William Boyd is a Republican. You're a riot, Evelyn!! (Arami) His parents are nouveaux riches with all the ostentation of elevated bumpkins and naming the kid after a US president was one example of it. Thank you, Arami, and thank goodness such trends don't exist to my knowledge in the US. Boyd certainly tossed in a number of LBJisms (toilet antics, does that ring a bell, Evelyn?) and stereotypical Texan stuff (cowboy boots, yi-haa) but what is interesting to me is that Lyndon becomes a sympathetic character despite his crude and crass behavior. You can see that he likes Neil and tries to help him. (BTW, Heide, he has new-found admiration for Neil when he discovers the doctored hockey stick!) At the cafe, he tries to get Neil to put the "Romelia-Phantom Boyfriend" thing into perspective. "Nasty one...But why don't you just come along anyway?" Then, "Forget the girl, forget the student. Just come along." By far the best thing is Lyndon's expression when he dances past Dundine and Romelia later. Wow, what a look! He knows he had him pegged. (Moon) his actions might have been influenced by Dundine and his stick to the point of his disgust for both. He then rids himself of both and is free. Very nice way to put it. They are both so related. The stick represented belonging to that so-called elite group, but I think it was also a means to an end--as Heide so succinctly put it--to get laid. As Mole is yelling to him: "Don't you dare, boy. Don't you dare...I'm warning you, Truelove. My word is law! My word is LAW!" Is this our Rebel With a Cause now? ;-) BTW, I'd give him a 10.0 on his hammer-throwing technique, but then again I'm a little biased, no different from an Olympics judge! (Jana) Poor Romey did just about everything but disrobe and still he didn't kiss her. Don't you wonder why she didn't kiss him? I don't think Romelia was too forward, but girls (especially at that age) are more mature than boys of any age! Maybe she would have on their second date had Dundine not interfered.

The Lyndon thing could also be a critique of the US. The British have always had had a love/hate relationship with the US. In fact at first, we are disgusted by Lyndon, later, he's the one that sticks by Neil, so we soften towards him. Wouldn't you agree?

Did I say sticks?

(Moon) sticks? Pun intended? Interesting point, Karen. How is our Neil going to be when he returns to school? I like the image of him as rebel. Hanging out with Lyndon, scoffing at the whole scene. His new found independence will be very attractive to the ladies, should he meet one, and maybe, just maybe, he'll recognize a come-on when he sees one. Interesting that Mole looks just like the little furry, blind creature. And hilarious when he tries to find a connection with his name to Van Gogh's name. Mole is "grockle" in Scottish dialect. "Now you say that quickly....Gogh: grockle..See what I'm driving at?" No mention yet of delectible Neil in jeans and his blue sweater in the bedroom scene? What a loss for Romelia. Yes, Karen, she must have put her address in Neil's pocket. She's not going to let that boy slip away. I shall be romantic too, Moon, and agree that he will see her again.

Very perceptive of Karen to bring out all of LBJ's characteristics in Lyndon. In fact at first, we are disgusted by Lyndon... Yeah, then at the end, after we realize the guy has lots of "streets smarts", and befriends Neil ...he doesn't seem so disgusting. But I still don't want him in my house:-) How about Romelia....is she a prototype of Dutch Girls? All girls? She sure sends out strong signals...but he's not connecting.

Why was I under the impression that when he got back to Scotland, he would leave school?

(Moon) But, will he go back to Romelia? Probably yes. (Heide) Yes, Karen, she must have put her address in Neil's pocket. She's not going to let that boy slip away. I shall be romantic too, Moon, and agree that he will see her again. I do not want to disturb your romantic feelings, but I don't see that. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to keep a relationship going through such a distance -let alone develop a relationship after such a short acquaintance- and at that age, and remember, he is living in a boarding school, how will he manage to see her? Or she him? She may have given him her address and they may write letters, but if they really meet again, not before years later. Sorry, girls, I'm not always so non-romantic - quite the contrary :-) (Jana) I had also forgotten how hysterical the scene was when that hideous teacher of theirs lost some of the boys in the red light district. He was running back and forth trying to catch the strays and yelling at the rest of the boys to "look down, just look at your footwear" to avoid seeing anything suggestive. Too funny. that's one of my favourite non-Colin scenes, when he says: �Keep calm! Eyes front! Don't panic! Stick together!" I really wonder, whom he wants to calm, to protect, who is panicking. Another one of my non-Colin favourites is Lyndon saying �Winter!" as if he would say, �What a question to ask, it's obvious, isn't it, leaves are falling." (Karen) Is this our Rebel With a Cause now? ;-) (Heide) Interesting point, Karen. How is our Neil going to be when he returns to school? I like the image of him as rebel. Hanging out with Lyndon, scoffing at the whole scene. His new found independence will be very attractive to the ladies, should he meet one, and maybe, just maybe, he'll recognize a come-on when he sees one. Hasn't he been a rebel before, but in secret? After all, he has been cheating with his hockey stick to get into the Amsterdam team. But, yes, I can well see him hanging out with Lyndon, ready for open rebellion, going his own way, like Lyndon put it. But all the same, I hope he will not adapt too much of his behaviour. (Heide) No mention yet of delectible Neil in jeans and his blue sweater in the bedroom scene? What a loss for Romelia Yes, isn't he gorgeous there, and that smile of him, so smashing ... *sigh*

Kirsten, at that age, it is so easy to travel, especially within Europe. Everyone I know did it in their youth, and it is a lot easier to travel when you actually know someone in the country. Sorry, but I stick (here I go again!), to what I said.

Way, way back someone asked what book Neil was reading in the coach. It must be a novel by Anthony Powell (who wrote the "Dance to the Music of Time" saga). Serious stuff! Neil really does look sweet seventeen! DG is one of my favourites....especially like the disco scene, and the "by the trees bathed in light" scene.

I'm sorry to disagree with you all....but aside from breaking with Dundine and the crowd (including "Wickham"), I don't think Neil will change much.Cheating with the hockey stick was instigated by Dundine, so they could go to Amsterdam on the tour. He came from a family thatdid not interact and did not show emotions (DNA), then he's been at schoolthat promoted regimentation for ten years. IMO This is part of his persona. He will always be shy, intimidated by women, and exceedingly polite.This doesn't nece sarily make Neill a loser.

(Moon) Kirsten, at that age, it is so easy to travel, especially within Europe. You're right, Moon, it's only that I imagine life in an English boarding school to be very restricted with not much time and freedom to travel around the world and the holidays I suppose are to be passed with the family, but I have to admit, that my image may be that of a very, very, very traditional one, and that I tend to forget that even in English boarding schools life may have changed. Sorry, my fault ;-) Besides, with my remark about the age I had not the possibilities of travelling in mind. Neil's only 17 and dreaming about �first love", longing for any opportunity to meet girls and to make his first experiences (my impression was that the guys were so excited about the trip because of the possibility to meet girls, not only Dutch girls - because of their reputation - but any girl). Do you think he feels like having his girlfriend miles and miles away, only able to see her every couple of weeks for a sho t weekend? I have another question related to that �will they meet again" one: Do you all think Neil is seriously fallen in love with Romelia? He is surely taken by her, she is nice, she is charming, she is kind and she makes his mouth water, and Neil is really depressed about the lost date with her. But isn't it possible that he is so sad about the �disaster" because of the lost opportunity, considering his remark about his slow start? Don't flame me, it's just a question, something that came into my mind - in my h art I do prefer the romantic version. (Evelyn) I'm sorry to disagree with you all.... Oh, I think I have to put things right, I mean try to make clear what I wanted to say: I'm with you, Evelyn. I didn't want say that Neil will turn out to be a second Lyndon. He will always be the well-mannered, charming 'boy'. With saying he is �ready for open rebellion" I carried things perhaps a bit too far. But I do imagine him hanging around more likely with Lyndon than with the rest of the crowd, respecting his (Lyndon's) readiness to confront people with �his own way" and appreciating that Lyndon is more honest and more a friend than his �supposed to be best one". Neil surely will nev r offend other people in a way Lyndon does at the van der Merve's but he now is certainly willing to go for some length for his �own way" - his, not Lyndon's. And of course, he's not a loser! (Wonder whether this is really any clearer than before, I'm always mixing up my thoughts, sorry) BTW, I'm not so sure whether it was really Dundine's suggestion with the hockey stick. Neil may have �confessed" it later to him as his �best friend", but if it was Dundine's idea, why wasn't he with him preparing it, and why didn't he try it himself, was he so convinced to be in the team with no doubt? Could see that film again and again, Colin's so cute.

(Kirsten) Don't flame me, it's just a question, something that came into my mind - First of all...let's get something straight....NO ONE flames anyone around here for voicing her opinion.And if anyone does...I'm the first to "defend her to the barricades", believe me. This is why I like this board...people are polite and cililized. Anyway, Kirsten, I know what you mean't to say...and I agree with you about the post-hurling-the stick-Neil. He will be different. As to falling in love...I think he had a crush on her...who wouldn't?...she gorgeous! And she approached him first.(Don't you love the scene when she calls out to him on the field and he looks around to see if she is calling someone else?) On the other hand one never knows where a crush can lead to.....:-)

that should be"people are polite and civilized". (Obviously yours truly should learn to proofread better...shocking!)

Just a couple of comments for now. Neil's 17. Isn't that about it for his boarding school experience. He'll be going to university soon. He may not be up in the northernmost reaches of Scotland then. Besides, if there's good road (short Hovercraft ride), he will later consider it *an easy distance* ;-) (Bethan) it must be a novel by Anthony Powell (who wrote the "Dance to the Music of Time" saga). Damn!! What eyesight you have!! If Bethan says she sees something (even behind a glass-block wall), we shouldn't doubt her. It's there!

Bethan) it must be a novel by Anthony Powell (who wrote the "Dance to the Music of Time" saga). (Karen)Damn!! What eyesight you have!! If Bethan says she sees something (even behind a glass-block wall), we shouldn't doubt her. It's there! New Title: Eagle- Eye- Bethan

I saw what I saw what I saw!! And I'll tell you one thing (forget about paperbacks).....he'll never ever do a shower scene again, EVER!!

Why not?

(Moon) But, will he go back to Romelia? Probably yes. I agree that Neil is likely to try to pick up again with her. He's so shy that it would be far easier to go along this path than to try to meet a *new* girl. Romelia has already indicated that he wouldn't be rejected and, hopefully, he's understood this. In my scenario, I'm not talking a "heavy-duty, looking-to-get-married" kind of relationship. This is just a 17-year-old boy who might correspond with her and see her during his holidays and who might invite her to go with him to special parties. What s the equivalent of prom? (Heide) How is our Neil going to be when he returns to school? I like the image of him as rebel. Hanging out with Lyndon, scoffing at the whole scene. I think he'll be somewhat of a loner as he tries to find himself. His friendship with Dundine is over, but he won't openly snub him. Neil won't try fitting in with those boys anymore; he has seen them for what they really are. You can see him questioning their values right after the confrontation with Dundine, as they are siding with Dundine or at least trying to convince him to forget about it. (Heide) Interesting that Mole looks just like the little furry, blind creature. LOL! Does he? And they're blind? Can you post a picture of one? (Heide) No mention yet of delectible Neil in jeans and his blue sweater in the bedroom scene? He looked scrumptious in that scene, staring out of the window and smoking his contraband cigarette. (Evelyn) the guy [Lyndon] has lots of "streets smarts" Precisely the old LBJ. The consummate good ol boy. Apparently Boyd didn't realize that similarity with his public school boys. (Kirsten) But all the same, I hope he will not adopt too much of his behaviour. I don't think he will stop being the nice, well-mannered Neil. He just won't allow people to walk all over him and he won't be so trusting and therefore so gullible. Take heart, he knows what the little thingie on the side of the bog is for! ;-) (Evelyn) He came from a family that did not interact and did not show emotions (DNA), then he's been at school that promoted regimentation for ten years...He will always be shy, intimidated by women, and exceedingly polite. Maybe this is the difference between what the movie is trying to show and reality. As Neil is hurling his hockey stick into the deep blue sea, while Mole is ordering him to stop, saying his word is LAW, aren't they trying to make us believe that Neil is rejecting those perverted ideals and the regimentation? I agree he will probably remain shy, etc. (Kirsten) Do you all think Neil is seriously fallen in love with Romelia? (Evelyn) As to falling in love...I think he had a crush on her. Crush or as Moon said earlier, puppy love, just about sums it up for me. (Kirsten) But isn't it possible that he is so sad about the "disaster" because of the lost opportunity, considering his remark about his slow start? Oh yes, he's sad about having lost out, but he's also in turmoil because his "best friend" betrayed him. I like the description in the book of what Neil sees at the bus that wasn't really shown in the movie.Romelia: What student? What are you talking about? (Truelove's face. Suspicion dawns. He looks around, sees Dundine laughing in a group containing Cone and Roote. Dundine doesn't meet Truelove's eye. (Kirsten) but if it was Dundine's idea, why wasn't he with him preparing it, and why didn't he try it himself, was he so convinced to be in the team with no doubt? Dundine's a jerk alright, but I would imagine he's smart enough not to take the unnecessary risk of getting caught. Apparently, Dundine must have been a good enough player to not need the doctored stick. At most schools, cheating would likely be cause for getting kicked out or "sent down." Besides, those kind of guys are usually spineless chicken-sh*ts! ;-)

Moon) But, will he go back to Romelia? Probably yes. (Karen)I agree that Neil is likely to try to pick up again with her. A far more likely scenario IMO is that Romelia will pick up with Neil. This is a determined lady...hey, she's got a plan

In the preface to School Ties, the book that has the screenplay to Dutch Girls as well as another television film called Good and Bad at Games, Boyd has the following quotation from W.H. Auden's "The Old School":Everyone knows that the only emotion that is fully developed in a boy of fourteen is the emotion of loyalty and honour. For that very reason it is so dangerous. By appealing to it, you can do almost anything you choose; you can suppress the expression of all those emoti ns--particularly the sexual--which are still undeveloped; like a modern dictator you can defeat almost any opposition from other parts of the psyche. But if you do, if you deny these other emotions their expression and development...they will not only never grow up, but they will go backward, for human nature can never stand still. They will, like other things that are shut up, go bad on you.How do you think this relates to the boys at the Strathdonald School?

Everyone knows that the only emotion that is fully developed in a boy of fourteen is the emotion of loyalty and honour. And probably lasts for several years in an all boys school where conformity is the key to surviving (Tommy Judd notwithstanding). like a modern dictator you can defeat almost any opposition from other parts of the psyche. Dundine understood this quite well. While not a ringleader, he still seemed able to pull Neil around by the ring in his nose. Perhaps because the actors playing the boys were so mature looking, they didnt' come across to me as emotionally backward. Actually, they seemed quite ready to break free. They showed no respect for authority at their school - the headmaster and Mole in particular were openly ridiculed. If anyone would have a problem I'd say it would be Giles - so confused and conflicted. Karen, I can count on you to bring something cerebral into our discussion. Now, can you tell me how to get rid of this indent?

But if you do, if you deny these other emotions their expression and development...they will not only never grow up, but they will go backward, for human nature can never stand still. They will, like other things that are shut up, go bad on you. And that is what probably happened to Giles's brother. That is why Giles is so tense, in his mind he knows he doesn't want to end up like his brother, he fears it. There is v. little liberty in boarding school, your life is commanded by rules, and you get v. little sympathy from others. My cousin's best friend committed suicide while they where students at Winchester College. My cousin has never gotten over it. In that competitive atmosphere you can easily withdraw into yourself when you should be asking for help or talking to friends. Neil saved himself when he threw his stick overboard. That was his release, his loyalty and honour was suddenly for himself alone.

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You left the center on,Heide..

I am always a little suspicious of generalizations...... Surely, individual strengths and weak tendencies must come into play in the public school environment. Frankly, I would like to hear of the positive experiences of the boarding shool in England. If theses schools were so devastating to the human psyche surely someone would have corrected them by now.

Frankly, I would like to hear of the positive experiences of the boarding shool in England. Thank you Evelyn. There are some! I have been reading these posts but did not really want to get into a discussion of the pros and cons of the British Public School. It is worth bearing in mind that the only way the institution has survived for so many centuries is that it has always adapted to the climate of opinion of its day. Generalisations are aften based on an outdated idea of what these schools are really like but I don't want to get into a discussion on it. It's not the place and it is such a complicated and contentious subject.

(someone above) Not just Dutch girls but Scandinavian girls: I believe it has to do with having all that darkness: the night! They also drink heavily. Men of course love it. whaaaat??? Dutch girls too? well, well...that would be a new one.

Frankly, I would like to hear of the positive experiences of the boarding shool in England. (Allison)Generalisations are aften based on an outdated idea of what these schools are really like but I don't want to get into a discussion on it. It's not the place and it is such a complicated and contentious subject Of course it's your option on whether or not you wish to voice the Pro-side of the Public School. I think someone should. William Boyd obviously viewed them with abhorrence. Yet, I have friends who have enjoyed the experience. And there's Ben who attended Winchester College. And there is always the view that perhaps Neil was a better man for having had a "life-altering experience" early in life; a lesson in life. .

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Of course it's your option on whether or not you wish to voice the Pro-side of the Public School. I have only just received a tape of Dutch girls and therefore cannot comment on closely on the system as exposed by William Boyd.. I got the impression from your discussions, that poor Neil had been at boarding school since the age of 7 or so. I could not defend that. I do not understand how any parent could bear to send such a young child away from home. I have a number of friends who have done that, however, and their children do not seem particularly damaged. It does however seem to make for more onformity amongst those who have been away most of their lives and sets them apart from the rest of society. Though it is hard to distinguish between nature and nurture! The Public School is a school which caters for pupils from 13 to 18 and I think there are definitely arguments to be made in favour of that, particularly for boys. For one thing, in a good school, they tend to work harder when surrounded day and night by their peers without too many distractions. They also do make such strong friendships which last all their lives (BTW homosexuality does not seem to be any more a part of life there than at day schools!). They also have the opportunity to do every sort f extra curricular sport and activity. There are obviously, as with everything, disadvantages, the main ones being the cost and the fact that those who do not go think that such an education buys you privilege. Sadly, the season of goodwill is upon us and I don't want to provoke an acrimonious debate! Paticulaarly as I know somebody who, I think, would be very strongly in the anti camp. Are he and Livia home from LA by the way?

Thanks Allison, for you views of the Public Schools. In Neil's situation, I think one can be betrayed by a friend in a public or state school. And I bet young Master Firth goes to a Private School in LA :-)

And I bet young Master Firth goes to a Private School in LA :-) I have often wondered about that!! I hope so for his sake!

(Heide) they didn't come across to me as emotionally backward...They showed no respect for authority at their school - the headmaster and Mole in particular were openly ridiculed. I agree that the boys acted like typical (normal) teenagers on a class trip, except for tossing the TP out of the train windows perhaps. (Heide)If anyone would have a problem I'd say it would be Giles - so confused and conflicted. (Moon) And that is what probably happened to Giles's brother. Yes, he appears to be the only one who takes the headmaster's and Mole's words seriously about honor and representing the school. (Evelyn) I am always a little suspicious of generalizations. But we mustn't forget this story is one man's experience and his views. It shouldn't be viewed as a White Paper, Green Paper or Purple Paper on the public school system as commissioned by a think tank or governmental body. (Evelyn) If these schools were so devastating to the human psyche surely someone would have corrected them by now. I would imagine that they've evolved over the years and I'm reminded of the fraternity/sorority systems here. During my time at school, they had fallen out of favor and their tradition-bound, rules orientation was relaxed considerably for those who belonged. However, there is a tendency for people who have gone through such ordeals to NOT want them to change, merely because of the belief that if they had to do it, then why shouldn't someone else. (Fraternity hazing: "If I crawled across the room naked through peanut butter and jelly, while balancing a six-pack of beer on my head, so will you.") On ER a week ago, Dr. Corday (Alex Kingston) gives an impassioned speech about doing away with the practice of having interns on 36-hour shifts. She compared it wi h air traffic controllers who work no longer than four-hour shifts because lives depend on them. She accused the hospital doctors of not changing this archaic practice, which contributes to mistakes, because of the attitude that they had to do it. Wasn't it in Another Country (?) where someone is complaining that their fathers couldn't know what went on at these schools and another who counters that they do know precisely what went on because they themselves had been subjected to it. (Allison) it is such a complicated and contentious subject If we limit our discussion to what the author/film are trying to portray, then it doesn't have to be contentious. Does it? What the author believes is just that, a belief. It's his, not necessarily mine and frankly I have no opinion on the subject. (Evelyn) And there is always the view that perhaps Neil was a better man for having had a "life-altering experience" early in life; a lesson in life. Good point.

(Evelyn) I am always a little suspicious of generalizations. (Karen)But we mustn't forget this story is one man's experience and his views..... My comment referred to your quote by Auden re: public schools not Willam Boyd's in DG.

A bit of a dry spell and I'm afraid I don't have a lot to add. I thank you, ladies, for trying to spice things up with a discussion of British public schools but we seem to have hit a snag. After the holidays, let's try a new discussion. There's been a groundswell of support building for 1000 Acres. A possibility? I know there are also some votes out there for The One Before the Last. Other suggestions? In the meantime, Dutch Girls still rules.

Heide, we haven't heard from everyone who owns this tape. Allison just received it. And how is Cheryle coming along? If ATA is difficult to rent in UK , maybe we should wait a while. I hope we do Master of the Moor in '99 too.

Allison just received it. Yes! I only manged a furtive glimpse as I am surrounded by inquisitive sons at the moment. Can't wait for a moment to watch it properly. I don't want to bore the rest of you so do go ahead with whatever you wish. I have not tried to rent ATA yet though after Bethan's experience I am not sure I dare! If I feel an overwhelming need to discuss DGs, I shall just have to interrupt your ATA deliberations!

Can we discuss Thorton's face? Could they have added one more pimple, cold sore and/or blemish? And the taped-together glasses... What kind of stereotype was he supposed to be? Another noncontroversial subject...dancing styles. Which boy knew how to dance? Was it Lyndon, who got down? Dundine, who had "attitude"? Lamb (the kid who was pointing)? Or Neil? Another great scene at the disco are the wallflower boys sitting there putting Lyndon's tart down as well as the entire place because no one will have them. As they leave, Roote does his best Bette Davis, "What a dump." Loved that bit as well as Giles being helped out at that moment.

(KarenR)On ER a week ago, Dr. Corday (Alex Kingston) gives an impassioned speech about doing away with the practice of having interns on 36-hour shifts. She compared it wi h air traffic controllers who work no longer than four-hour shifts because lives depend on them. She accused the hospital doctors of not changing this archaic practice, which contributes to mistakes, because of the attitude that they had to do it. My dear Karen I'm very thankful to you for having posted this, and to ER for having broached the subject. I'm a doctor and am totally against long shifts in the Emergency Room. With us it's 24 hours. We all do it, interns, residents and attendings, as long as we're under 50 years old (after that, untill you're 55 you may work only 12 hrs shifts, no nights, if you ask, and after 55 you may be excused from all emergency work, again if you ask). I hadn't thought of the analogy with the airline pilots, but that's a great one.

Sorry, it was air traffic controllers. But airline pilots also have time limitation rules.

(Gi) I hadn't thought of the analogy with the airline pilots, but that's a great one. See, you never know when you'll pick up something worthwhile here. ;-)

(Karen) Another noncontroversial subject...dancing styles. Which boy knew how to dance? Was it Lyndon, who got down? Dundine, who had "attitude"? Lamb (the kid who was pointing)? Or Neil? Okay, I'll bite. Who was that boy who was dancing alone - the one still wearing his little beanie? Was that Lamb? Karen, you're a wonder. He was enjoying himself. I'll bet it was hard to drag him off the dancefloor. I'll take sweetie Neil's dancing (of course). That's slow dancing. I'm trying to remember the placement of his hands. One was lightly touching her shoulder but where was the second one? Did he actually have it around her waist? The boys were dancing in the beginning. I imagine they just burst into the disco and right out onto the dancefloor. The girls weren't really dancing with them. When they didn't immediately live up to their Dutch Girl reputations, I suppose, the boys got disillusioned real fast.

This is only tenuously related to DG, but I just read in the paper today that our pal, Lyndon Baines Jellicoe (Timothy Spall) will be in the Masterpiece Theatre presentation of Dickens' "Our Mutual Friend" on Sunday night. They even had a picture of him in the paper. My, he hasn't aged awfully well. He's playing a nasty, garbage-picking type of character so maybe I should chock it up to make-up. Come to think of it, he didn't look all that well in DG, did he?

That's interesting, Jana, thanks. I'll check him out. Let's see, he was about 35 in DG so he must be close to 50 now! ;-)

Timothy Spall was also the main character in SECRETS AND LIES.

(Heide)Re:Timothy Spall.... Let's see, he was about 35 in DG so he must be close to 50 now! ;-) Was he really 35 in DG? I thought he would have been Colin's age.I'll look for him in "Our Mutual Friend". It got rave reviews when it was shown last spring in UK.

I'm just teasing, Evelyn. I'm sorry. But he looked like he was about 35!

Timothy Spall was about 27 at the time of DG.

Nan, how right you are... ;-)

(Passionata) Timothy Spall was also the main character in SECRETS AND LIES. Was he really? I saw DG after Secrets and Lies but now cannot place Timothy Spall at all in that film. Was he Brenda Blethyn's brother? That's the only main character man I can think of from that film other than the daughter's boyfriend.