Yes, he was Blethyn's brother--the photographer.

I could identify Lyndon Baines last night in "Our Mutual Friend"... he looked 50, Heide. But I read on RoP that Colonel Fitzwilliam was in this Dickens production too but I couldn't find him. Anyone have any luck...there's tonight and Tuesday.

Timothy Spall has been recently recovering from leukemia.

I found Colonel Fitzwilliam in "Our Mutual Friend".Anthony Calf in the credits. He is Alfred Lamle....the bankrupt sleaze-ball who's about to rip-off the Ruperts(sp?) Didn't recognize him though with a floor-brush mustache and mop-style hair.Once again....definitely more attractive at Rosings. These guys don't seem to get any better than they were in P&P:-)

Timothy Spall has been recently recovering from leukemia. ] Oh, how terrible! He is a great actor, I hope he pulls through.

Timothy Spall has been recently recovering from leukemia. Oh no! I hope he pulls through, too. So talented-- he's hilarious in "Life is Sweet."

Has there been any decision made on our next film discussion? I always like to have time to read the book.

Hate to see a Colin topic go dormant. We must set up a new film to discuss. Anyone who's recently seen Dutch Girls or expects too soon can speak up anytime on any topic. I love to hear film comments when our DB is discussed. In honor of Valentine's Day, how about a love story? Oh God, does that mean Camille? Think of some of his films that might qualify that we haven't discussed yet. We can always stretch the criteria a bit.

(Heide)Oh God, does that mean Camille? Hey...watch it....I like"Camille".......mobetta than FP!! So, flame me.....

Camille...mobetta than FP?! Evelyn, this is war!!

Hey! These posts have not been showing up as new so perhaps that is why the topic has gone dormant. Have we discussed Tumbledown? (Evelyn)I always like to have time to read the book. Oh my, you all set such impossibly high standards. I bet Mel Gibson fans don't do that sort of thing.

(Allison) Have we discussed Tumbledown? No, we haven't. I'd like to do this one or Master of the Moor (I just finished reading the book!)

(Allison) I bet Mel Gibson fans don't do that sort of thing. Hey, we've got class...besides CF mobetta than MG!! ****** (Heide)Camille...mobetta than FP?! Evelyn, this is war! Knew that would get you.(As Laura would say...hee,hee)

Ah, Tumbledown... a love story between a man and his rifle. Or Master of the Moor...a love story between a man and his mother. Yes, yes, yes, you're right. None of his films are simple love stories. Camille doesn't count, Evelyn, except that it's simple. That's actually an instruction tape on bad acting (not Colin's, of course). Karen, what films haven't we done? I'm up for anything (except Camille) but if we don't get other suggestions, let's do Tumbledown February 1. If you don't have it and want it, contact me or Karen at nomdedrool@yahoo.com

And one more time. I didn't mean to yell at you. Don't ever type in the words "big smiley face" in brackets.

Here's what we haven't done: Another Country Apartment Zero Camille Circle of Friends Deep Blue Sea Lost Empires Master of the Moor 1919 One Before the Last (radio play) Out of the Blue Tales from the Hollywood Hills Widowing of Mrs. Holroyd Tumbledown A Thousand Acres Wings of Fame Technically Femme Fatale was done, but no very in-depth. Apartment Zero might be a good one to do. Many people really like it and it is readily available.

(Allison) I bet Mel Gibson fans don't do that sort of thing. (Evelyn)Hey, we've got class...besides CF mobetta than MG!! (Heide)Camille...mobetta than FP?! Evelyn, this is war! CF mobetta than MG? Evelyn, take care! :-)

(Gi)CF mobetta than MG? Evelyn, take care! :-) AAA. I should have prefaced that with IMHO and added a :-) Will I ever learn?

No offence taken, Evelyn :-)

Evelyn, I plan on usurping AAA next time I offend someone. But let's not forget KMA, very effective though only to be used in case of emergency. Tumbledown....going once...

Heide, what's KMA?

Heide, what's KMA? IMO it's Kiss My A--. And Nan will kill you if you use it without a emoticon!!

Tumbledown...going twice...

And Tumbledown...gone. No other suggestions so it looks like this is the one to discuss starting February 1. Remember, if you want to join us and don't have the film, contact Karen and me at nomdedrool@yahoo.com A good source for background information on this film is Jane's Articles Page. You can access some articles on the film and the reaction in Britain to its airing. Just click here

Thanks for the Tumbledown link Heide, I'm sure it will help make our discussion more interesting.

Just to start the anticipatory juices, do check out Drool's main page....

Cannot wait to admire the Dear Boy in those fisherman sweaters. He does them justice, and then some!!! Now, if I can convince Ray to watch it with me....!!!

(Marcia) Now, if I can convince Ray to watch it with me....!!! Just make sure you send him out of the room for the scene when his mates come to pick him up and he says good-bye to Sophie. Might put a dent in his ego when you drool at that deep shoulder action!!

Karen, the Tumbledown cover on the main page is AWESOME! I was thinking of asking my husband to see it, but I'll have to wait until the Sophie scene to ask him, thanks for the warning (heehee). He might watch until he recognizes CF, then he'll walk out. I'm sure he's quite allergic to him. Thank heaven for my drool friends, otherwise I'd go mad.

Karen, that is a cool pic, where'd ya get it????? Oh no, I'm gonna have to look deep into my videos and try and find it;( It's taped off of Canadian TV!!! Can't wait to virt view w/ you guys!

(Moon Dreams)He might watch until he recognizes CF, then he'll walk out. I'm sure he's quite allergic to him. Thank heaven for my drool friends, otherwise I'd go mad. Spoken like a true Firthian. I think all of our husbands are allergic to him! Definitely, have husbands watch after Sophie's Scene!

Need to close that tag!! Hmmm, as for myself, I can't wait to rewatch that scene with his best-ever deep shoulder grind... ;-)

I guess I shall start the discussion. Tumbledown has one of the best performances I have ever seen from CF. I found it quite disturbing and at times hard to look at. The same feeling that Sophie felt when she saw him in the hospital. It was strange that even after he had decided and told his parents that going to war was not worth it, he would rather watch the war programs on TV than anything else. I guess he was having problems reconciling the fact that he, a Scots Guard career officer was having those thoughts. I did laugh at some of his remarks at the hospital especially with the doctors and nurses (but I attribute that to my mostly warped sense of humor), did anyone else laugh? They built the story very well and even incidents we had heard him tell became even more powerful when they were shown almost at the end of the film, i.e. His stabbing of the Argentine soldier and his tumbledown. On a lighter note: what a nice shape his head has! We certainly got lots of close ups of his neck, and not a bad backside either (but we�re familiar with that part thanks to the Advocate aren�t we?).

I thought it was a good performance but it is an interesting insight into his attitude to acting that he has said (I think)that he was disappointed when he first saw the final version of Tumbledown. Typical drama school fare. I can see that all the writhing, screaming, groaning is the sort of thing you learn in the first year of drama school but those are the sort of parts that get awards! I think he has also said that he was appalled that his portrayal of RL was just impersonation. His accent in this is a typical upper class drawl that you would expect from a guards officer. It also has a very nasal twang to it which I assume was the way RL actually spoke. Those of you who recently saw the film about the bayonet in which RL spoke; was Colin's portrayal just mimicry? Lots of other things I loved. When he is talking to Sophie on the night before he left for the Falklands, there is one of his "looks" which is so wonderful, when he says something on the lines of "been busy have you?" Arghhh! His eyes are wonderful.

I don't know if I can think of another performance that's more physical than this. I imagine it's his idea of what a man like Lawrence, someone who was probably going to be a career soldier like his daddy, someone who seemed to love the military, would act - brash, arrogant - not necessarily likeable. It's such a different performance, I love to watch it. Energy in every scene - kissing, drinking, soldiering, even his recovery is angry and loud. I love that scene you mention, Allison. For all his macho posturing he did seem to care for her. This is also one of my favorite drunk scenes he plays. (Favorite is Femme Fatale.) What remarks did you find funny, Moon? I would probably agree but none are coming to mind now. I found the scene on the hospital ship when he has a running dialogue going on while the doctors are picking pieces of dirt out of his brain very eerie. We could do a long discussion on how the medical profession is portrayed in this film. Anybody care to?

We could do a long discussion on how the medical profession is portrayed in this film. I read a comment by somebody(?) at the time Tumbledown came out that it was not a good idea to take the account of a man who has had half his brain blown off as an accurate account of what went on. His agressive attitude to doctors and nurses and the portrayal of the patronising attitudes of the chaplain was sometimes a bit too overdone IMHO. Having your brain blown apart does affect the personality. It would have been interesting to know to what extent his personality was changed by his injuries. Tha was not clear. I think we were meant to conclude that only his mobility was impaired.

You have a very good point Allison. I would think losing 40% of your brain would afect the personality. Maybe it was wrong to make think that only his mobility was impaired. His rehabilitation was very successful, watching him drive, walk and eat seemed quite normal. Heide, the lines that made me laugh were his sarcastic comments to doctors and nurses in the hospital, but once again, it's probably my warped sense of humor.

I should have read before posting. Excuse my spelling & etc.

(Allison) he was appalled that his portrayal of RL was just impersonation. Robt Lawrence's accent is upper class and sounds like he has marbles in his mouth. So, yes, Colin is definitely imitating his speech.

His agressive attitude to doctors and nurses and the portrayal of the patronising attitudes of the chaplain was sometimes a bit too overdone IMHO. I felt the same way when I started the film...but then I came to the conclusion that this was his way of dealing with this injury. I have not finished the film...but at the end of the book he is a more serene person. I have Robert Lawrence's book which he wrote with his father John. "When the Fighting is Over" TUMBLEDOWN. ,According to his brother Nick, Robert was always a "stroppy little sod". After reading the book...IMO I feel Colin underplayed the real Robert. This guy was always a rebel, impetuous, alienated people etc. Wrong profession for that personality. But a v. brave man who is lucky to be alive. Not many people survive head injuries from a bullet wound originating from a rifle.

I too had a hard time believing the hospitals would have treated Lawrence so callously. The exceptions were few and far between. I believe the point the film was trying to show was how unprepared the hospitals were to treat such injuries as if they didn't expect the soldiers to come home so ravaged. IMO the point was exaggerated but not false. How do you feel Sophie was portrayed? I wouldn't have wanted to be his real ex-girlfriend.

I wouldn't have wanted to be his real ex-girlfriend. I understand one of the controversies surrounding the film and a reason why it has not been shown again were the objections raised by the mother of that girlfriend who understandably objected to the portrayal of her daughter. Robert was always a "stroppy little sod". That is interesting. That would account for Sophie's possible love/hate feelings about Robert. CF portrayed him as rather a sweet man under it all which is what, IMO, made his attitudes in hospital rather hard to fully understand. The film makers maybe baulked at showing RL in his true light. There had to be some sympathy for his plight.

You're right about the hospitals not being prepared for such injuries, and it is surprising. Not all doctors or nurses treated him badly, they were just not capable to handle him psychologically. They should have had more compassion towards him, but since Robert was usually in a bad mood and quite angry, they rather kept their distance. He was told and knew that if he would behave himself they would treat him better. His military attitude did not abandon him in the hospital bed.

that would account for Sophie's possible love/hate feelings about Robert. I really feel it was all over between S & RL before he went away. She was just being dutiful going to see him and... ahem...letting him relieve his sexual tensions with her. In the screen play she says: One can't get away from the fact , you are a different person. I mean, not just your injury, but that of course...I mean, it terrifies me to think of living with you. We weren't , after all going to marry or anything, were we? We hadn't seen each other for weeks before you went down there. Robert: Yes, all right. Look, I've made a mess in the bed...Hope you don't expect me to apologize. It happens. The British doctors are world renowned for treating head injuries. They're probably not a bunch of "Patch Adams"...but are v. serious in their treatment.I despised the nurses who were discussing their sex lives and were rude to him.But the doctors worst failings IMO were talking about him as if he was an inanimate object. But as RL said about his incontinence....It happens.

In the Jane's Articles page on Tumbledown, the real Sophie's mother questions Lawrence's motives for making this film - that it was solely for his financial benefit and he shouldn't have made public their intimate moments. Granted, the woman is defending her cub and I wouldn't expect less from a mother but nowhere does she deny any of these moments took place. How can the story of his injury and recovery be complete without Sophie's role? I don't particularly like Robert Lawrence in this film. I don't think we're supposed to like him. Maybe it takes someone with his kind of abrasive, arrogant attitude to make it through something this catastrophic. Then again, it doesn't hurt to have Daddy be so influential. I'd be curious to know about his friend Hugh's feelings about his portrayal. Do you think he was jealous of Lawrence as Robert insists in the film?

Sophie and Robert's relationship didn't seem to be that close. She was still his friend and visited him in the hospital. It was a v. kind and noble jesture on her part to have him over from the hospital. Her mother should be proud of the jesture too. Afterall, they were no longer together and she had someone else, remember the phone rang and I assume it was her current beau, didn't you? I did not think that Lawrence was jealous of Robert, he said so, but we didn't really see it (I didn't).

Wow, what an actor. I received a copy of Tumbledown this morning from a very kind Firthfan, and have just finished watching it. Colin never ceases to amaze me, in every part he disappears into that role, I was moved to tears, he just becomes Robert, as someone else has said a chameleon among actors. If I thought he deserved a Bafta for P&P then he should certainly have won one for this role. He did everything so well, he was arrogant, he cried, he was so convincing as a cripple and his torment and anquis just showed through, he really should be pround of this performance. I am so glad I have seen this, is there no end to this man's talents. Just as a point of interest did anyone else notice Mark Williams as Lumpy, he was in SIL and was the tailor who narrated R&J and had a stutter.

And Lady Catherine de Bourgh was Robert's mother. He was nominated for a Best Actor BAFTA for Tumbledown, I believe in 1989 and lost. However, TUMBLEDOWN, did win a BAFTA for Best Drama. After Heide commented on them...I went to the articles on T. on Jane's article page. I got there via colinfirth.com and click on links. After reading about all the controversy I was surprised it won a BAFTA. Everyone got into the act... I did not consider T. an anti-war movie...or a political one.Or even anti-army Anti-bureaucratic, yes. Was the Falklands War unpopular in UK? Some of the articles referred to it as "Mrs. Thatcher's war"

Women are treated rather unflattering in this film. Except for Robert's mother who I think is great...I'd like to talk more about her later. We see Sophie portrayed as a spoiled child who can't deal with Robert's injuries (though I agree, Moon, that she was generous having Robert over). The nurses are awful, Mrs. Stubbs looks like she can't wait for Robert and Hugh to get out of her house. Hugh's girlfriend treats him terribly. Is this Robert's view of women or is this an example of how people who have never been in a war situation, can't understand what has happened to these men. Thanks, Evelyn, for reminding us who played Mrs. Lawrence. By the way, I believe Robert Lawrence married later and had a child.

The actress who played Mrs. Stubbs�s daughter is Emma Thompson�s sister. How many films are there that portray women as they should? Why even �You�ve Got Mail�, does a detestable job, and it�s supposed to be so acceptable. Yuk! Why would Mrs. Stubbs be so affected by him? He was quite presentable, albeit, a bit nervous (all that smoking), but she had kept her daughter upstairs in her room during their visit, and the daughter did not seem to complain. Is that an anti-war statement, is beauty not supposed to see the beast? In contrast, Mr. Stubbs was very curious to know all and talk to Robert. Yes, the male vs. female point of view is certainly a part of this film.

Do you think the film was drawing a parallel between the way the Stubbs's, Sophie and the Army were all at a loss to know how to deal with these damaged and shocked men?

Although Colin missed out on BAFTA in 1988 (he seems to be unlucky with them!), he received a Royal Television Society award for Best Actor for TD.

The actress who played Mrs. Stubbs�s daughter is Emma Thompson�s sister. Sophie Thompson...who played Miss Bates (giggled all the time) in "Emma". Women are depicted as unable to cope with the aftermath atrocities of war. But what I really want to know is.... Who are the Stubbs?...Helen and George and daughter Louise.They are not in the book...only the screenplay. Are they relatives? Friends? Or are they symbolic ?.... The public at large? George seems curious and talks to Robert...Grace prefers to get away and talk to Hugh.And Louise...she just stays up in her room. Yet Hugh inquires after her. I wonder if a scene or two were edited out.(But they're not in the screenplay).

Do you think the film was drawing a parallel between the way the Stubbs's, Sophie and the Army were all at a loss to know how to deal with these damaged and shocked men? Yes, I'd agree. A similar statement is also made in A Month in the Country, I believe, though we know dear Birkin was able to find solace and healing in Oxgodby. Don't know how or if Lawrence ever found his peace. Who are the Stubbs?. They seem like just a device (or convention as DB puts it ;-)) to allow Robert to tell his story. Stubbs' daughter is Hugh's girlfriend but she doesn't seem to have any affection for him. One of my favorite scenes in this film is the long shot of Lawrence's partents coming out of the hospital after first seeing him wounded. They're both in a state of shock. The father is obviously affected but talks about how proud he is of Robert, presumably for his bravery. "God,he's done well. Hasn't he?", he says. But the mother is mostly silent. As if all she can think of is how grievously wounded her son is...as good an Army wife as I'm sure she is, I think she could care less how he was w unded, only that he was. I think this difference is reflected several times in the film and I love her for it. Barbara Leigh-Hunt is great in this film.

I see also that is was directed by Richard Eyre, isn't he Sue B's husband, people do seem to like to work with people they have worked with before, and,of course, BL-H was memorable as Lady C.D-B in P&P. Arami, do you happen to know who won the BAFTA in 1988 for best actor, actually I have just thought I might be able to look it up, I have the BAFTA Wwards book for 1996.

I assumed the Stubbs daughter was Hugh's girlfriend. Hugh is an engaging character but I have to say, as played by Paul Rhys, an unlikely army officer. Don't get me wrong I really like PR as an actor. Did any of you see him as Stringer in "Dance to the Music of Time"? He is a welshman and I cannot resist welshmen! I thought, though, that Hugh was just too effete to be a realistic soldier. I cannot believe that he was like that in real life. What does the book have to say on that?

Ann, if you go to Jane's Article Page (if it's still up...I heard after the recent interview, she might take it down!)there is an article on the '88 BAFTAs. (Heide) Don't know how or if Lawrence ever found his peace. Yes, at the end of the book he does. Marries a girl he met after being wounded who accepted him as he was...Tina, they had a son, Conrad. John Lawrence says: His main problem is the British weather and I think it quite likely that they will eventually emigrate to Australia where ttthe climate should help to make Robert's life a lot more physically comfortable. Later, I'll tell you about the nice letter he had from the US Army Attache. The poor guy craved recognition.The same could have been written about our Viet-Nam veterans. Always happens after a controversial war.

Test

re: Sophie It's some weeks now that I saw T'down last, but I do not remember that Sophie did anything particularly blameworthy. As I see it Sophie and Robert split up before he left for the Falklands - the last night before his departure didn't change anything on that matter in my eyes. So you can't say she left him because of his injury. What I don't see clearly is how it happened that Robert spent the night at her place during his recovery, why she did it. Was it meant as a generous gesture? Did she simply not know how to say "No."? Was it pity? Sympathie? That question and the phone call at an inconvenient moment are certainly questions one may judge differently - I do not know how to judge them myself. Though she may not have chosen the best way for her final "Adieu" I can't really blame her - she was very young, how would she have kno n how to handle such a situation, how to cope with what has happened to Robert - how would anyone know. And I'm sure she meant well - and she didn't love him anymore, they split up before he has been wounded, so what would have been the use of a relationship out of simple sympathie or pity?

I agree, I don't really think Sophie is that unsympathetic either though I didn't take it that they had broken up before he left...merely that they hadn't seen each other for awhile. It isn't clear. She did return to visit him in the hospital which frankly was a generous gesture in itself if she wanted to break up with him. I don't see Sophie's actions as contradictory but I think the screenplay may have been a bit harsh on her. Robert's mother seemed to understand her. The real Sophie's mother seemed to object mostly about her daughter being portrayed as a "sex kitten". Well, it's not like she was sleeping with the whole regiment...or was that part cut out? ;-) After all, "we all saw Sophie". Is there any facet of Robert Lawrence's character that is likeable to you? Cid you like him before his injury? during his recovery? after his recovery?

Is there any facet of Robert Lawrence's character that is likeable to you? id Did you like him before his injury? during his recovery? after his recovery? When I read the book, I didn't like RL...I thought..."What did he think he was joining ...the Boys Scouts?"Soldiering is not a glamourous profession, one can get killed...or maimed. He always was looking for the negative side of things. I think Charles Wood's screenplay softened him up some...Colin smiled...I don't think RL did in real life. However, this man had unsurpassed courage...in battle and more so in recovery. I have great admiration for him.And yes I liked him for his determination.

That s a good question Heide. I admit I did not feel much for Robert, I was mostly studying Colin s portrayal of him. Oddly, I did like Valmont and found him sympathetic. I was not sympathetic to him in Wings of Fame either.

(Moon) ... told his parents that going to war was not worth it He said, "It wasn't worth it!" He's upset because he thinks all his men are dead. When he is assured that is not the case, he calmed down. Robert is proud of being a soldier and of what he did in the Falklands. That underlies everything. He sought recognition. (Allison) I can see that all the writhing, screaming, groaning is the sort of thing you learn in the first year of drama school but those are the sort of parts that get awards! So who beat him out for the BAFTA that year? Anyone? (Heide) how the medical profession is portrayed in this film I think we're given all sides. Not all medical personnel were unfeeling toward the patients and it is common to talk about patients as if they were not there (especially in teaching hospitals) and then refer to them by their medical ailment and not their name. Possibly the fact that these were military hospitals could account for the lack of bedside manner. However, there was the nice doctor who gave him the beer after he fell out of bed and talked to him. That, I think, was the issue. Communication. eople who were honest with Robert and talked to him were portrayed positively. (Evelyn) I feel Colin underplayed the real Robert. This guy was always a rebel, impetuous, alienated people etc. I think it's important to remember he was only 21 when this happened. The only rebelliousness and impetuousity I noticed were in the hospital scenes. His abrasive behavior was to make people treat him as a normal human being and not an invalid. He was a fighter and he was going to be in their face so they didn't forget and relegate him to some rest home for injured war veterans. Wrong profession for that personality. I saw him as a real career type who was in the wrong regiment. Robert wanted the prestige of being a Guards officer, but he also wanted to see action. The dichotomy of being in the pretty boy Guards, whose main function is to pose for tourists' pictures, while longing to be with the marines and paras getting down and dirty in the Falklands and their getting all the glory IHO. (Interesting little factoid, the Guards units were not supposed to have seen combat; they were to maintain already taken position .) Robert made it into the officer corps the hard way (not through daddy's connections or school) and sought out training assignments to make himself a better, more well-rounded soldier. At the same time, he drilled his platoon to be ready for action. Contrast that with Hugh's response to his commanders about an emphasis on boots and "looking good." Robert was acknowledged for his leadership skills and highly respected and liked by his men. He was out there on Tumbledown with his troops, leading the charge. He questioned why he was the only officer of his unit to be injured. (Heide) How do you feel Sophie was portrayed? I wouldn't have wanted to be his real ex-girlfriend. I wonder if the controversy about the real ex-girlfriend led to some changes in his book. She doesn't come off as bad as in the film. The father mentions her (Mitty) showing up at the airfield at Brize Norton and going to the hospital: "Jean straightened up and let Mitty in to kiss him gently on the lips. She was only nineteen, but very brave as she fought back the tears." Later Robert gives a brief mention of his field trip to her flat. "It all ended between us that night. I spent an awful night sleeping on a mattress on her floor, knowing that something was wrong, that she had found someone else. And I had a sense that relationships were going to be a lot more worrying in future, and not necessarily in the physical sense....The problem was going to be finding someone who could understand, and cope with, the demands of my disability." (Evelyn) I really feel it was all over between S & RL before he went away. That is certainly the way it looked. As Kirsten also points out, Robert says that he hasn't seen Sophie for a couple weeks before he shipped out. (Heide) I don't particularly like Robert Lawrence in this film. I don't think we're supposed to like him. But the screenwriter Charles Wood did like him. I think we're supposed to admire him and sympathize with his frustrations with the bureaucracy, mistreatment by his regiment, and the alienation from the public. (Heide) I'd be curious to know about his friend Hugh's feelings about his portrayal. Do you think he was jealous of Lawrence as Robert insists in the film? Just like the Stubbs family, there is no "Hugh." Maybe he's been put into the film to represent a typical Guards officer, whose brush with the reality and horrors of combat have taken their toll. He's conflicted and not as strong as Robert. Instead of jealousy, do you think what he feels is guilt over not being able to finish him off per their drunken pact? (Ann W) did anyone else notice Mark Williams as Lumpy Thanks for pointing that out. I watched it again last night and there he is large as life! (Evelyn) After reading about all the controversy...I did not consider T. an anti-war movie...or a political one. Anti-bureaucratic, yes. Like you, Evelyn, I was surprised about how controversial the film was and did a lot of reading after seeing it for the first time. Unfortunately, most of the books available to me were written by journalists covering the war. They had not-so-hidden agendas and major gripes against the government for its control of information during wartime. Lawrence's message was that the government (including the military establishment) couldn't deal with the aftermath. He was a hero and he wanted to be recognized as such (and then taken care for the rest of his life!) (Heide) Women are treated rather unflattering in this film. Except for Robert's mother who I think is great....Is this Robert's view of women or is this an example of how people who have never been in a war situation, can't understand what has happened to these men. Mum is a military wife. Didn't you think she was questioning her own maternal instincts the night Robert calls to tell them he is coming home? She can't understand why John's father claims to have heard Robert cry that night because she didn't. Even the dog instinctively knew something was wrong. Not all women are portrayed unflatteringly. There were some good, capable nurses that Robert admired even though he may not have liked the restrictions they put on him. (Evelyn) Who are the Stubbs? I think they must be a cross-section of the public. George has a morbid curiosity. He collects all sorts of military things, but is anti-war. "Oh, I collect, but I don't do. Bit like the rest of the country." Grace puts on her best manners and tolerates having the "killers" in her house, but is too polite to say or do anything. Louise apparently was initially fascinated by Hugh, but his dashing image has worn off and now she is just sick and tired of him, so she hides like a little coward, unable to confront him or help him. (Allison) I thought, though, that Hugh was just too effete to be a realistic soldier. But isn't that supposed to be the case? Remember the nurse at the beginning who was surprised Robert didn't attend Eton. She thought all Guards officers did. The SG were not a real fighting regiment. They mostly had public duties as a Household Division. Sorry about the long post. Tried to catchup. I really do think Colin did a fantastic job. You always get a sense of Lawrence's arrogance, both when he's fit and when he's injured. How else could one explain that car? Loved him running in those tight jeans with the Walkman. Better than all those baggy outfits he seems to wear in other films! Speaking of running, doesn't it make your mouth water when he's running around the barracks with his platoon, wearing a t-shirt and singing. My oh my, he looks very fit! "Am I right or am I wrong?" ;-D (I have no problem with his running or singing in this one.)

As the cousin of a couple of guards officers, I must defend the regiments (or at least theirs, the Blues and Royals). Pretty they may be, and paras they are not, but they spent most of their time on the Falls Road and one went to the Falklands.

Ben...why was the war so contoversial.... Or is that Robert Lawrence's perception? Of course, the screenplay was written by Charles Wood, an avowed pacifist. So, even before the film was released...people probably had an opinion. RL was distressed with the treatment he received from his regiment post war. Felt they did not support him or assist him in any way. Like the rest of the population, his own regiment felt RL was an embarassment.

(Ben) Pretty they may be, and paras they are not, but they spent most of their time on the Falls Road and one went to the Falklands. And...? I never felt warmly for the character of Robert Lawrence though I'd agree, Evelyn, that his determination was something to be admired. I guess it's easy for me to say what a stupid shit I think he is while I'm sitting back on my comfy sofa with the remote in hand, knowing what happens to Robert as he screams about how fun it all is. But I loved Colin's portrayal and want to know too who won the BAFTA that year. (Karen) Speaking of running, doesn't it make your mouth water when he's running around the barracks with his platoon, wearing a t-shirt and singing. My oh my, he looks very fit! Amen, sister.

Karen, apparently according to my LLoyds Bank 1996 Lloyds Bank BAFTA Awards book, Ray McAnally, won the BAFTA for the best actor, the name rings a bell but perhaps Allison or Bethan may know him. I'M afraid I don't know the name of the series/serial in which he appeared as it only has the names of the directors,producers, writers etc., but having watch TD for a second time I would say he was robbed, nobody could have done better.

sorry, hadn't read your post Heide, but that answer is to you also.

Karen, apparently according to my LLoyds Bank 1996 Lloyds Bank BAFTA Awards book, Ray McAnally, won the BAFTA for the best actor, the name rings a bell but perhaps Allison or Bethan may know him. I'M afraid I don't know the name of the series/serial in which he appeared as it only has the names of the directors,producers, writers etc., but having watch TD for a second time I would say he was robbed, nobody could have done better.

McAnally, won the BAFTA for the best actor, the name rings a bell but perhaps I cannot remember the name of the play but I think he played a politician. How we miss the FAQ, I am sure it was in there. (Ben)I must defend the regiments I would agree with Ben. All the Guards regiments have a reputation for military efficiency and bravery in battle, they really should not be judged by how they appear on ceremonial duty. That is why still maintain that Hugh is too effete. Most Guards officers may be grand and well connected but they are also tough nad look as if they could make a good show in battle. IMHO Paul Rhys looks as if a puff of wind would blow him over.

I agree the Guards are a highly respected regiment. Isn't there a lovely retirement home (more like a palace), in London for the Guards?

There are several guards regiments - Blues and Royals, Grenadier Guards, Scots, Irish, Welsh, Coldstream, Life....blah, blah. Check out and look up the various regiments. I don't know which has a base on Birdcage Walk (running alongside St James Park), which is perhaps what you're thinking of, Moon. There is a general retirement home for old soldiers at Chelsea Hospital on the Kings Rd. Evelyn - the war was controversial because there were suspicions that Thatcher had (domestic) political motives for going ahead. The was a big outcry about the sinking of the Belgrano, for example, and a row with the church about the nature of the service in St Paul's in the summer of 1982. I'm sure there was at least a little of the political in Thatcher's decision, but she also believed in defending invaded territory to the hilt, a principal that commanded popular support. The Task Force did not have to go in the teeth of public opposition. In fact, there was the usual loutish jingoism from the tabloids - The Sun's famous headline after the Belgrano was sunk: "Gotcha!". (I liked Private Eye's mock Sun front page at the time, which included the starred ad. in the top corner, "Kill an Argie nd win a Metro! See page 10."] You can imagine how this went down with the educated, and generally liberal and tolerant, bourgoisie (the "chattering classes") in Britain.

(Ben) I must defend the regiments (or at least theirs, the Blues and Royals). Sorry if you took my words to mean that a bunch of toy soldiers or the equivalent of the Pope's Swiss Guards were sent off to lead the assault on Stanley for that is not what I intended. Lawrence's Guards unit was part of 5 Infantry Brigade that sailed from Southampton aboard the QE2 on 12 May. (Have seen references to the Blues and Royals participating in Operation Sutton, the amphibious landing on San Carlos Bay on 21 May, so your cousin was not in RL's unit.) To compensate for transferred units, 5 Brigade received 1st Battalion Welsh Guards and 2nd Scots Guards on 22 April for two weeks of training. From Hastings and Jenkins' Battle for the Falklands,: "From the beginning, it never seemed that the Ministry of Defence took the prospect of 5 Brigade going to war very seriously." [They had difficulty obtaining supplies.] ...on 12 May, the clothing deficiencies had been solved only by the unofficial intervention of a Guards officer's father in the House of Lords....Senior officers of the brigade were convinced that the Ministry of Defence simply did not expect them to have to fight. "They sailed amidst emotional scenes at the dockside, to enjoy two weeks of magnificent food and wine aboard QE2....Even the war cabinet found something faintly bizarre about dispatching men to war on the greatest luxury liner in the world. "There were also officers who asked in bewilderment, 'What possessed the Ministry of Defence to send two public-duties battalions to the South Atlantic?' Both Guards battalions joined 5 Brigade from prolonged tours of ceremonial duties, during which their infantry training was obviously less intensive than that of a marine or parachute battalion. The Welsh Guards had completed an exercise in Kenya the previous winter. Like all Guards units, these two could be accounted among the finest in the army. But however, enthusiastic and efficient their officers and men, they could scarcely be as mentally and physically attuned to a campaign in the Falklands as 3 Commando Brigade. They were trained to fight from armoured personnel carriers. 'We are not bergen soldiers,' as one of their officers said. In the firm opinion of many of 5 Brigade, the Ministry of Defence sent the Guards because they were expecting them to serve as a garrison, not to have to fight. A very senior officer at the Ministry of Defence co firmed after the war that, when they were dispatched from Britain, 5 Brigade was considered a reserve for 3 Commando Brigade, not a force of matching capabilities." The image of the Guards units, particularly the Welsh Guards, was not enhanced by their failure to complete a "modest yomp" to Goose Green. Of course, they lacked adequate supplies and snow-type vehicles. "They walked for twelve hours before 5 Brigade agreed with their CO that the exercise should be abandoned. The Guardsmen were far too heavily laden. Their handful of Sno-tracs were breaking down every few miles....'We have got to wait for 5 Brigade to get its act together,' they were told." The decis on was made to send them to Fitzroy by sea. This is where it gets really bad. Despite horrible weather and under constant shelling, the SGs made their landing on the beach at Bluff Cove. They were exhausted after spending seven hours at sea and there were numerous cases of exposure. The WG's landing was a disaster, literally, in terms of loss of life. They were put aboard the Galahad, which was hit by an Argentinian air attack. Many died. The WG's image suffered because of poor communications nd judgment; they failed to understand the necessity of disembarking quickly. I've also found this: "The first troops into action on 13 June were thirty men of the headquarters company of the Scots Guards, commanded by Major Hon. Richard Bethell...Bethell, supported by a troop of the Blues and Royals, was to conduct a diversionary attack on Argentine positions south-east of Mount Harriet." So are the "Blues and Royals" Scots Guards? Looked to me as if they were an armored division? In War in the Falklands: The Full Story, by the Sunday Times of London's Insight Team, there is a similar account of 5 Brigade's part in the war. Major General Moore made the decision that they would join battle instead of relieving 40 Commando, which was holding San Carlos; the Lt. Col. was furious: "his marines were trained for the kind of battles that were to come..." Frankly, Hunt also thought the Guards were not up to it. Earlier he had watched a Welsh Guardsmen come ashore at San Carlos wit a full pack on his back, walk 400 yards from the jetty, and then sit down in the road in tears, saying he could not go on. And the crew of the Canberra had been deeply uncomplimentary about the guardsmen, saying that on the voyage from South Georgia they had done no physical exercise, but "sat around all day." They had grumbled at the need to share cabins, and they had complained when lunch was late. (To be fair to the Guards, the weather on that voyage had not been exactly conducive to running around t e decks.) The Guards fought valiantly on Tumbledown; saw nothing to detract from their performance. What or where is Falls Road? Should I know this? (Ann W) Ray McAnally, won the BAFTA for the best actor "A Very British Coup," Alan Plater's story of a Labour Prime Minister's successful fight for control against Whitehall mandarin (there's that word again!) opposition. [From The Times, 20/3/89] Sorry to bore you all with this. Evelyn wanted to know what Lawrence said on the bayonet show on the History Channel. I will have that for you tomorrow. It's bound to be shorter! ;-) Back to our movie.... Could there be another interpretation to the ending line "Isn't this fun?" With Lawrence participating in making this movie, he couldn't have condoned that image's implication that they were having the time of their lives sticking Argentine soliders? Could he?

Karen, that's fascinating. (BTW, I meant to include a link, which didn't work. I am hopelessly HTML-illiterate. How do I do it? This will tell you more about the Blues and Royals). I never meant to claim that the Guards were as tough or as well-trained as the Commandos, the Paras - who were examplary in the Falklands - or the real nuts in the SAS. Simply that they aren't a bunch of wimpy toffs. (The Falls Road is in West Belfast, by the way.) Having said that, I must confess that my cousin always thought of his biggest moment (he had a three-year commission) was presenting colours to the Queen on her birthday. He is a v. good-looking man anyway, and wearing his red tunic and pranci g around on a horse seemed to do wonders for his love life. There was considerable sympathy for RL at the time, I remember (Tumbledown first came out in 87/88?, which is when I saw it), although he was also thought to be a bit of a plonker. I don't remember the message as anti-war, necessarily. More anti-politician. What I found rather chilling was the training that allows men to run screaming into a hail of bullets, and the exhiliration that RL professed to feeling at the top of Tubmledown.

Karen...thanks for your exhaustive research. I only have RL's book and his perspective. He also mentions that not only were they not prepared , but they ran out of ammunition which is why they had to use bayonnets. Could there be another interpretation to the ending line "Isn't this fun?" In the book RL tells this to his second Guardsman in Command as they are approaching Stanley, the city on the other side of the mountain..... ...the lights of Stanley below us and thinking how strange that it hadn't been blacked out. This was supposed to be a war. I turned to Mc Entaggart as we went along and for some inexplicable reason, suddenly cried out, "Isn't this fun?" Seconds later, it happened. I felt a blast in the back of my head and felt more as if I'd been hit by a train than a bullet. It seems to me that RL exhausted, sees the end of the battle ...mission accomplished...sadly an Argie sniper got him.

Ben, for a link, just make sure you put the http:// before the address and you will have a working link. No need to get all fancy. He is a v. good-looking man anyway, and wearing his red tunic and prancing around on a horse seemed to do wonders for his love life. So there must be lots of Mrs. Bennet's around... ;-) Lawrence's book does mention the *social* aspects of being a Guards officer. One does tend to get invited to all the right places. Those two Guards units just happened to have come off long ceremonial stints. They were good, bad timing. And the Gurhka Rifle unit just came from Nepal. I don't remember the message as anti-war, necessarily. More anti-politician. And he got one of the biggest payouts from the South Atlantic Fund (donations from the public).

Robert Lawrence on "Decisive Weapons: The Bayonet": [On training to use bayonets] It's the nearest thing that you get to what you might call battle inoculation. And it was not unknown for our staff to get from the local butchers the gizzards and innards of animals that the butchers would save and put them in plastic bags in these dummies just to get a feel of what would be the real thing. That was the first time that you could expect to start looking at these bayonets or real and it was only eventually when I led my platoon on a right flanking attack against some machine gun posts at the end of Tumbledown that we really took on the classic bayonet charge of the movies as it were. [Music - Scene from Tumbledown of CF charging.] Obviously, this was happening with a great deal of ammunition being used as well. So the bayonet at that point is more of a symbol of your intention than it is som thing you are actually using. They were, of course, used. They were used when we closed with the enemy. (um) And in fact proved themselves to be invaluable pieces of equipment. By the time you use it, you've been firing at each other with modern weapons, often under artillery fire. Grenades are being used, antitank rockets are being used, machine guns. So by the time you close with the enemy, the blood lust is certainly up and the use of the bayonet, ya know, this isn't a precise business at that point of the war. (um) You just use it and you kill him any way you can. Anyone who has ever taken part in close quarter combat, where you are fighting hand to hand with bayonets, I think that can only ever just stay with people who have done it because, by its nature alone, it means you are within feet of this man. You can hear him. You can see him. You can smell him and ultimately with a bayonet you're only ever killing him at a maximum of three feet, let's say. With a small arm or pistol or whatever, yes, they are close range weapons, but there is a detachment. You must also remember that, when you stab someone with a bayonet, you are holding on to one end of something that is stuck into him at the other. You are actually physically joined at that point. You are not standing ten feet away and emptying a magazine from a pistol into him. So it's a very memorable, different event which is the true nature of warfare. Much, much different to pressing a button that releases bombs.

You are actually physically joined at that point. And you hear him beg for his life. One must really be cold blooded to be able to carry on with life after such an experience. The Vietnam veterans had a hard time with it as we've seen in all those films. Everyone says we're supposed to learn from history, I guess they're not referring to war. War seems to be an ungoing tragedy.

and now for something completely different... Real troops enroute to Falklands...had to cut Colin out of picture because of all the controversy!!

Before Jane's Articles' Webpage went into oblivion...I copied these quotes from Colin. Remember, this was not a documentary....this was a drama... and this is how CF depicted RL. "8His girl leaves him, his best friend can't understand him. He survives and triumphs over his disabilities only by adopting a black, bitter outlook. The film's steady refrain is: "It wasn�t worth it. It wasn't worth it." Said Firth: "It's about the creation of a chocolate soldier, a man made to impress tourists outside Buckingharn Palace, who turns into a psychotic beast during wartime, as any man must if he doesn't run away. "It's not about the suffering war victim; it�s about a man who was the perpetrator of his own misfortune, he said. "He comes back furious and inglorious, minus 43 percent of his brain, dribbling and incontinent. Instead of being lauded he's relegated to the back of the church during the memorial service, finally given a medal and told to shut up. ****** And you hear him beg for his life. One must really be cold blooded to be able to carry on with life after such an experience. In re: to this RL says in the book "But had I left him he could have ended up shooting me in the back. " At this point...it's kill or be killed.IMO I don't think it's a matter of being cold blooded.

My grandfather was killed just after D-Day, and my grandmother then married another soldier who had just spent three years in various Japanese PoW camps, which wasn't much fun. Before that, he had fought against the Japanese in Singapore. Much later, shortly before he died (which was three years ago), he told me about a recurring nightmare he'd had for some years after the war. While fighting in Singapore, his battalion had attacked a Japanese machine-gun post which had killed several men. He ended up ju ping into this post, bayonetting a Japanese soldier in the neck and waiting the few minutes, which passed like hours, it took this man to die. His nightmare involved seeing this young Japanese soldier's face, imploring for help, and he had it night after night well into the 1950s. But he'd never told anyone, and seemed to recall it completely dispassionately when he eventually told me. My (step) grandfather was a tough SoB and, in many ways, he was cold-blooded. But no-one is unaffected by the ghastliness of war, and after his experiences he often seemed to prefer the company of his dogs to that of other people. Thank GOD we have none of us had to suffer it directly.

Karen, I'm truly impressed by your extensive knowledge of related topics to Tumbledown. I feel like a kindergartner wandering into honors History. I've been badgered into posting (you know who you are) so I will give my views on this film. I have watched Tumbledown twice and have not read anything else on the subject so everyone is much more knowledgeable than I. I found RL v. sympathetic. CF might have softened the character a bit in the name of drama, but regardless this is about a man who lives his life in the protection of British interests. Whatever Robert's motivation to be a soldier, he and men like him deserve our respect and compassion. It is easy to judge them while the rest of us are living our comfortable lives. RL must be an extremely strong individual to be able not only to survive his injuries, but to perservere over them. I loved the part where the doctor is talking about him and acting like he's not even in the room. RL gets mad and tells the doctor to go stick it up his (sounded like fluffy but prob was another word) ass. I think that illustrated the level of frustration with which RL was dealing. I can't conceive of going through the same experience and coming out of it sane. I consider this to be CF's finest role. Mr. Darcy is dearest to my heart, but RL enabled CF to use the full force of his acting talent. I can't believe the performance that won the BAFTA is better than this one (not that I am totally objective).

Thanks Sue....well put. and RL felt that people not only criticized him but as an injured soldier he was an embarassment. Re: "It wasn't worth it".... He says at the end of the book: "I still believe that what I did in the Falklands War was worth doing . I still believe that what I did had to be done. When thousands of fighting troops suddenly march into your house to tell you, with the barrel of a gun stuck up your nose, that you must no longer speak English, but Spanish, you have a right to be defended by any civilized nation". IMO this indicates that he is finally at peace with himself and his country.

Ben - amen, man, AMEN! CF mentioned several times that for about three years after filming TD, he had suffered heavily from nightmares brought about by his attempts to penetrate the mind of a soldier in mortal combat. He has been trained as a method actor: acting for him involves not so much impersonating, as actually immersing oneself in a character and situations. Tumbledown is unquestionably his greatest acting triumph.

Tumbledown is unquestionably his greatest acting triumph. Apt.0 would be my choice.

I'm sorry the scenes on the QE2 that are in the screenplay were not shown in the final film. There is a lot of background information shared here that was illuminating but not necessarily portrayed in the film. The scenes of them training on the decks outside the Beauty Parlor and the Perfume Boutique might have shown more how incongruous it was that these elite troops, apparently used to a pretty cushy life (at least for the army) were sailing off into war on such a luxury ship. One telling line from the film shows perhaps how the Ministry of Defence never really expected these units to have to fight. Doesn't Lawrence at one point, say the Argies were supposed to run at the sight of them...but they didn't. I too think this is one of his best performances though it's a showy role and one bound to get more notice than his more subtle portrayals. I'm starting to get more fond of Apt. 0 myself. Don't you think the first soldier in the Union Jack shorts is FAT!!!

Rereading my first paragraph above, I realized I wanted to change it. It's not incongruous at all that these elite troops are sailing off to war on such an elegant ship. Rather fitting, actually.

I just want to say one thing: Not everyone who goes off to war comes back a psycho or a drug-addict.That war is a life-altering experience that should never happen ...there is no doubt. But most men return...move on to lead productive lives in an ordinary way...without any fanfare. ******* Tumbledown is unquestionably his greatest acting triumph. Apt.0 would be my choice. Have to go with Tumbledown.

Evelyn, I quite agree. And there was certainly much less fanfare, as you put it, from the generation that returned from the second world war than from those who returned from Vietnam. (I think this says something about the two generations.) The tale I told about by grandfather is a case in point - he related the experience as one might a day in the office, in an oddly detached way. Most of what I know about his experiences I discovered from others. But some experiences are worse than others. And the original point was that killing a man with a bayonet was more disturbing, after the event, than dropping a smart bomb from a great height.

This movie really gets to me. I have to watch it in halves. Maybe because my son took part in Desert Storm. More than likely it is because of the performance given by C.F. He really got into the character. The way the goverment treated the men who participated in that war remined me of the way the men who returned from Vietnam were treated. I always think that I wish the one doctor could have to go through what RL was going through. The man who played his father was very good too, I could feel his frustration. Didn't he go to South Africa?

(Ben) My grandfather was killed just after D-Day Your grandfather? Boy, do I feel old! (Sue) I feel like a kindergartner wandering into honors History. I didn't want anybody to feel somehow inadequate, but this stuff interests me (guess that's why I have a degree in history). Anyway, after I saw this movie, I wondered what all the controversy was all about. I didn't see the film as being anti-war. Britain didn't lose the war as the US did in Vietnam, so there couldn't be any national humiliation at being defeated by some two-bit tyrant like Galtieri, so there had to be more... The Vietnam vets I remember from college tried to hide it. They were ashamed of having been there (both from the standpoint of embarassment at not having gotten out of the draft and at what went on there). Robert Lawrence was proud of what he did for Queen and country. As his brother said, he was a real soldier and that's all he ever wanted to be. I don't think he ever became disillusioned and you can tell from his commentary on the history channel. BTW, the words sound worse in print. They don't sou d half so bad when he is speaking. Even if the Lawerence role is viewed as typical of acting school exercises, I think Colin does a fabulous job showing the fighter inherent in Lawrence's character. From the moment he's hit, he is still in charge (giving commands) and this continues all through. Under no circumstances, does he want to be viewed as a cripple, physically or mentally.

(Evelyn)Not everyone who goes off to war comes back a psycho or a drug-addict.That war is a life-altering experience that should never happen ...there is no doubt. But most men return...move on to lead productive lives in an ordinary way...without any fanfare. I think this has to do with not only what a soldier experiences during the war but his psyche. Dare I say some men are more sensitive than others. RL was a very strong individual with keen insight to who and what he was. Somehow if what happened to Robert happened to Hugh instead, I think the outcome would have been different. Not everyone could go through what Robert endured and come out a complete, functioning person. (Karen)The Vietnam vets I remember from college tried to hide it. They were ashamed of having been there (both from the standpoint of embarassment at not having gotten out of the draft and at what went on there). Robert Lawrence was proud of what he did for Queen and country. I grew up during the Vietnam War and while I was quite young during it, I still remember following the war with fascination and horror. There was no glory or a sense of pride for those veterans. The American public considered the war and them an embarrassment. The Vietnam vets that I know are quite bitter over the experience. At least, RL could be proud of his efforts

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(Ben), And there was certainly much less fanfare, as you put it, from the generation that returned from the second world war than from those who returned from Vietnam. (I think this says something about the two generations.) I agree Ben. There is a tremendous generation gap between the Second World War and that of the Vietnam War generation. Just think of all the social changes taking place in the US, and, the flower power/make love not war, the fashion:the mini skirt, rock music and drugs. The 2nd WW made more sense because you went to defend the �old country�, your roots. Not so with Vietnam, it was not so convincing, it was a vicious, just kill, kill, kill war. Only by then, the collective conscience was growing and it was anti-war. The Eighties were the Thatcher, Reagan decade. The MBA generation in full greed force. (I don�t consider you one of them, you have culture) Do you think Blair would have gone all out for las Maldivas, which IMO should be part of Argentina? You can guess how I feel about Northern Ireland or should I say Eire? Karen, thank you for all the above information, all quite interesting. Did you really cut CF out of that pix? LOL!

It has just been announced that Sophie Thompson (sister of Emma T. and Louise Stubbs in Tumbledown)has won the Best Actress Olivier Award for the musical "Into the Woods". Maybe next year.....!!!