Check out the main Drool page. Ya like??? ;-D Finally, thanks to Ann, it's up!! http://www.spring.net/yapp-bin/restricted/browse/drool/all/new

Unbelieveably cool. Deep bows, curtseys, and thanks to you all.

Great stuff! Just out of curiosity, who is the woman in the picture? And what movie is this from?

Tell you what, Terry, I'll give you the answers if set up my account!! ;-) (Meg Tilly and Valmont

Sure, what username will it be under?

Hi everybody, It's good to be back again. I'm a bit late, but nonetheless: Welcome, Audrey! Good to see another newbie. Don't worry for your typos, we won't mind and you'll improve your typing by posting your comments constantly, and as you'll see my English isn't very good but I keep posting stubbornly only hoping that it is at least more or less understandable. Whow! you all have been quite hard working during my absence, it won't be easy to catch up, but I'll try and hope that I won't be too repetitive:-) Which one is more faithful to the book, DL or V? After reading the book there is no doubt for me, it's DL, the Frears's version, in terms of the plot. The Hampton script is very close to the original. It is not only that he has adopted the facts that C loses her baby and MT dies in the end, but there are also many details in the book which you can find again in the movie and which were neglected in Forman's adaptation. On the other side Forman not only "invented" some nice things as the horse and arrow scenes, but took the freedom to change the end. But as I see, by doing this Forman made his characters more realistic. As much as I like the Frears's version, I always found it a bit exaggerated, especially in the end: All the evil characters got their punishment and the good is triumphant: V dies in the duel, MM is despised, sneezed at, thrown out of the good society (in the book she even loses all her money, suffers from smallpox and her face is even completely disfigured by them). MT was not really evil, but someone who has been a "saint" before can't c ntinue her life as a "normal" human being with all his weaknesses and failings, so she must die too, but out of a broken heart, which is a very appropriate kind of dying for a good character. It is not clearly said what happened to C afterwards in the Frears's version, so I thing she is going to lead a "normal" life (but in the book a remorseful C with shattered illusions and unsuitable for life, decides to live in the convent - as MT she is not really evil but only an innocent victim, who has done immora things, but she can't continue life in the good society and possibly be married to a decent husband after such failings, so she has to become a nun, voluntarily of course, because she genuinely is a good girl) Sorry for that digression, but what I'm driving at is, that the DL (Book and movie) in the end seen to be a bit theatrical, overdone and unnatural, a concession to the demands of the 18th century audience suggesting they want the bad chaps to be punished. So Forman's changes render the plot more re listic: they all have learnt their lesson but are (almost) all still alive. As the book is narrated in form of letters, it's a bit difficult to judge the characters, because all the descriptions are prejudiced by the writers and not made by an independent narrator. But I have some difficulties to see MV, C, MT and the others in the Frears's version trusting V resp. MM (except MV who warns MT about V), who are so obviously mean and nasty in their appearance as alleged nice and trustworthy characters. Whereas MM and V in Forman's adaptation - as I see it - are more convincing as th apparently nice and caring characters - nice and caring on the outside only, of course, but evil, nasty and malevolent in their true hidden natures -. I daresay CF conveys the pretended kindness much better than JM(who therefor is the better monster IMO) CF's V is very convincing as Mr. Nice. So if you didn't know of the bet and his true intentions but only saw what is obvious to the other characters, you would believe him, wouldn't you? OK, admittedly, MT and C are doomed to blindness: MT by her goodnes , C by her innocence and both are - as well as Danceny - very naive, but that's it, people are credulous, gullible, naive and innocent in reality. And V plays his role to perfection, he is Mr. Right to everyone (reminds me of Jack in AZ): the nice and friendly nephew to Mme. de Rosemonde; the supporting friend to Danceny; to C the playful companion and confidant on the one side and on the other the strict teacher - not only to improve her writing skills -; the unscrupulous 'playmate' to MM and the reckles master of seduction for his own sakes. CECILE... C clearly is a focus of Forman's version. Although in the Frears's version the sexual relation between V and C is more elaborated as part of the plan to humiliate Gercourt [BTW does anybody know, why they changed his name in DL into M. de Bastide???] whereas Forman's V restricted himself to take her virginity. UT's C seems to be more grown up .. but they didn't gave her too much in the script ... To my mind FB plays her C to perfection: the naive-lecherous curiosity of the virgin C, who as a result of her convent upbringing has no power to resist the quick and effective action of her seducer who lets the seduction take place as the most natural thing in the world - only a small incident in the fringe of the letter writing. The expression on her face during all this is priceless: The way FB shows us C as half-girl, half-woman is very convincing to me. On the one side she is going to be married, liv ng through her first love and her first sexual experiences (and all this involving three different men and at the age of 15) and on the other side she is acting like a child (despite her protest), completely innocent, playing with V, her childish joy about Gercourt's wedding present and about the news of her wedding taken place in the royal chapel with the King him self in attendance - a little girl's dream coming true. Mme de TOURVEL / VALMONT In Frears's DL the story of MT and V is much more elaborated, more precisely and subsequently more coherent and more convincing concerning the inner distress and struggles of MT. Whereas Forman's MT is less 'saint', not as naive (innocent but not as naive) as Frears's MT. She seems to have more inner power and only struggling with the 'normal' scruples of a married woman falling in love with someone else and not with her whole conception of the world. Nevertheless, they both succumb to her susceptibility o a dashing daredevil who uses every little chance given. Still it's difficult to see for me, why MP's MT is falling for JM's V, but easy to see (not only because I'm a CF admirer) why MT's MT is smitten by CF's V. He is so charming, that you really have to force yourself not to forget, that his behaviour, his intentions are actually rather nasty, though CF's V is not so obviously/convincingly malevolent as JM's. Does V love MT? He is certainly taken by her, but I don't think he loves her - at least not in terms of 'real', selfless love. First it's only the challenge for someone, who is out to make conquests, to capture this bastion of faith, purity and moral principles, a thrill he - used to all kinds of strong stimuli and grown weary of them - wants to enjoy. Later on he is taken by her care, her selfless love for him. She loves him as probably no one else has loved him before, most likely not even his mother. She is the first one who cares more for him than for herself. But his sadness after MT has gone back to her husband is a result of the discovery, that he has lost that only person who really loved him and that he has lost the power over her - in the end it was her decision to split up, not his. he wanted her to surrender, but it has only been a temporary success. He couldn't manage to break her. She is still able to stand up again. she gets into power the moment V accepted to let her in and spent the night with her, after he had first abandoned her. V doesn't realis it, but that's the moment he loses the game, the power. She's not come out of love (not in the first place) but to regain her self-respect, to know that despite her passion for him she is able to resist and to leave him. She has learned her lesson, that it was an arrogant presumption to believe that she never could be tempted. It is desperate for her to see that she could, but it is salutary that after all her struggling and stumbling she is able to stand up straight and to stay with her husband (somethi g we actually only suppose, they don't really tell us, do they?). [Apropos stumbling: there is a lot of stumbling around in V: V jumping into the water, V running up the stairs to see MT, C on her way to collect her letter to Danceny to show it to MM (first she's only stumbling but later she's even falling sown), D collecting his harp and stuff and falling over it after being confronted by MV, D leaving MM's bed to go after V; even V's horse is stumbling crossing the water on his way to Paris to see MT.] If I did only know V and had neither seen DL, the movie, nor read DL, the book, I daresay I would think that V might be in love with MT. CF/V plays that part very convincingly despite some inconsistencies. But as I know them I don't think he really loves her. Reading/seeing DL I was almost in a rage about his letters/behaviour to MT. How easily he always put her on the wrong side, never considering/accepting her wishes, her arguments, always saying one thing and doing the other, always justifying his doin with his 'love' for her. I always felt as if he were saying: "Yes, I do you wrong, I'm behaving badly, but it's only because I love you, so you have to take it as a good thing." And poor MT may say whatever she wants, she is helpless against his ignorance, so how could she not give in. And in V: his irritation shown when MT tells him that she has send a letter to her husband explaining everything. As I see it, that is clearly a sign, that he has no interest in a serious relationship and all the trouble t is would cause, and he seems to bee a bit nauseated by what she is saying to him how she wants to serve him etc. ... so no real love on his side. Mme de MERTEUIL / VALMONT The evil as such is shown in their characters, the pure will to hurt, the utter lack of kindness, sympathy and concern, a self-destructive will to destroy all the goodness of the nearest, the pure, the helpless. They are two of a kind, sort of soul-mates, but ... Does V love MM? I don't think so. Whatever it has been in their previous liaison, now it's not love, but more a question of power. When he proposes marriage it's not out of love, but in the hope of impressing her, in the hope of regaining the power over her after she rejected him. He only want's to win the great game, can't bear the thought of losing the power. And when she tells him, that she still loves him, it's out of the same reason. She wants to heighten his mood only to let him fall the deeper by 'sharing her latest secret' with him. In the end it's always the question of power as in all human relationships, it all boils down to an undisguised struggle of power: the strong, reckless, the unscrupulous gets the upper hand, and the weak, conscientious is helpless and defeated. DL/V shows the everlasting game, repeated ever after: The wolf eats the lamb. Woe betide anyone who leaves the security of the stable or who grants the voracious admission to it. Everyone has to cope with his own failings; the one survives, the other does not, depending on whether one is strong or weak. At what moment does V lose his will to live on? As I see it it's neither when he is abandoned by MT nor when he discovers D in MM's bed, because after that he still tries to win the game by planing C's elopement, but only at the very end, facing MM's betrayal of his acting against C and D. Who is the better one, MM or V? I'd rather ask, who is the less evil. To my mind MM is a real unscrupulous monster, with a frozen soul, a medical case. But I daresay there might have been some hope for V had he not been bound to die. On the razor's edge the hedonist, the reckless libertine, changes, in the end he showed a painful sympathising heart behind his cynical exterior. pfffff ..... enough.

Oh no!!! what's going on there??? What have I done?? (Have I done anything?)arrgh ... All that stupid, much too long stuff, and four times, I'm terrible sorry. Is there any possibility to skip the repetitions????

Welcome back, Kirsten. Tell us about your trip on 97, if you like. Your message was so full of little goodies, that posting it four times seems reasonable. ;-) Since we've had a bad experience "retiring" a topic, I'm afraid to "kill" your extra responses but perhaps Karen can work that out yet. Kirsten, you call Forman's version more realistic than Frears. I would agree and also call it more subtle. You mention the malevolence in the characters of MM and V in DL. Almost black/white. There are more grays in Forman's Valmont thought JM's portrayal in the end also shows V. as questioning his original intention. MM's punishment is also more subtle in Valmont. One would never know she was being punished but for her tears for Valmont (genuine tears but whether for Valmont or for herself, who kno s?) and her being alone at the wedding. How gratifying ;-) to know how she will fare later. We're having quite a discussion on whether Valmont truly loved MT. I think in discussing the film, Valmont, we have to discount what the book tells us and go by what Forman wants us to believe and decide for ourselves if he brings it across. I'm in the camp who thinks Forman wants us to believe V. did love MT. Frankly, I think JM's Valmont also ends up loving MT. In effect, both Valmont's end up committing suicide - both have lost their will. Have their eyes been opened by MT to what true love really s, know they'll never experience it and only by killing themselves be able to repent? Or have they finally experienced that love themselves and now having lost it, feel they can never regain it, thus making their lives worthless? Ouch, way too deep. I think Valmont fights his love for MT and doesn't recognize it until the very end. His sole purpose is winning that bet. He's cruel to MT - reminding her of her infidelity by bringing her husband up after their first night together,, his irritation at her for sending her husband the letter. The game is still the most important thing to him. Even after he realizes he has lost MT, he is still playing the game with MM though now it is a battle. Only after his final failure (bringing about Cecile's escape) does he realize he's lost. Which brings up a new thought for me - just something else to debate. Does he allow his death because he's lost the only love he's ever felt as I said above. Or is it the only way he can finally beat MM? (Emma) Don't forget about that bet with MM, V would've had to be a "little Monk" had he lost. Which makes me wonder - would he have honored the bet if he had lost? Methinks not. Lovely cover page, Karen and Ann. I never realized Meg could look so pretty. I had no such reservations about our DB.

Well Heide, I was going to say that I didn't think V truly loved MT, but you present a convincing argument and food for thought. I think he was moved that she loved him in a true fashion that he may never have felt before. And that by being moved by her love he allowed himself to care and realize what a horrid thing he had done to her. I suspect remorse was a somewhat new feeling for him. But did he love her? Maybe a little, but I think he would have gotten bored with her in a week if he'd tried a re ationship with her. (Kirsten) And V plays his role to perfection, he is Mr. Right to everyone (reminds me of Jack in AZ): Very interesting point. V is somewhat like Jack Carney (except not quite as nuts!) Karen and Ann, I second Heide's comment. Thanks for the beautiful cover page. Much drooling potential over that photo, I assure you :-)

(Kristen) there is a lot of stumbling around in V: V jumping into the water, V running up the stairs to see MT... even V's horse is stumbling crossing the water on his way to Paris to see MT. Thank you for the visuals, I think that's part of V's charms, his boyish energy. (Heide) would he have honored the bet if he had lost? Methinks not. And I thought he was a gentleman. But V was so sure of winning. (Heide) Lovely cover page, Karen and Ann. I never realized Meg could look so pretty. I had no such reservations about our DB. Yes, just lovely, so this is the Meg DB fell for... (Jana)But did he love her? Maybe a little, but I think he would have gotten bored with her in a week if he'd tried a reationship with her. I agree, V seem to be only interested in fun and games, and the prusuit of women, relationships do not interest him.

I've really enjoyed reading this dicussion, even though I haven't contributed to it! Many thanks! And now a dumbo question.....what were Valmont's motives when he tried to persuade Cecile to run away with him and told her that Daunceny was waiting in the country for her. I was never able to work this one out. What was he planning to do? Best scene for me, by the way, is the magnificent dance sequence with the four women in his life!

(Bethan) what were Valmont's motives when he tried to persuade Cecile to run away with him and told her that Daunceny was waiting in the country for her. I was never able to work this one out. What was he planning to do? I'm just guessing, but if V spirited Cecile away, the wedding would never take place. Cecile's reputation would become known and Gercourt wouldn't marry her and MM's big revenge (having G marry a nonvirgin) would never happen. Kristen, so many interesting points that you made in comparing and contrasting the book and the two movies. I have some comments but haven't had the time. BTW, there are no dumbo questions. Just as there are no details too small or insignificant concerning CF that we can't discuss. Isn't that right, ladies? I want to hear it all and talk about it all. ;-)

(Emma) Thank you for the visuals Ah yes, the visuals. Something we haven't talked of too much yet. Where shall I begin? Those sidelong glances at Cecile when he is first introduced to her? Not really interested but she is female and he enjoys making her uncomfortable. Okay Karen, I know his hair looks like octopus tentacles in this one but doesn't he look a bit sexy all soaking wet (again) when he enters his room to change and finds MM there? Shirt soaked through...starts to change. Too bad he didn't finish. Didn't y'all get a little thrill when he hoists Meg (I mean MT) up on the horse with him. So strong, so effortless...okay, he grunted a bit. There, I've said it, it's the "basics" of these films I really enjoy. ANd I'm not even sheepish about it. Baaaaa!

(Heide) Didn't y'all get a little thrill when he hoists Meg (I mean MT) up on the horse with him. So strong, so effortless... ...V and MT on the horse...the dancing that follows is quite charming, too bad she had to spoil it by reading that letter. Loved his walk, those long strides. (cheap thrill :-)

(Heide) Didn't y'all get a little thrill when he hoists Meg (I mean MT) up on the horse with him. So strong, so effortless...okay, he grunted a bit. That particular move I have replayed and replayed and still can't figure out how they did it. (MT's in a harness and there's a little man on the other side of the horse with crane.) What grunt??? Will I have to watch it again???

Overall (Karen) The book that Evelyn mention, while out of print, is available via used book �additional Book Info: Valmont, Penguin edition, translated by P.W.K. Stone. Must be published 1989. I found this one at Amazon.com, if anybody still needs it. But all my comments are just about V the film for now. Movies and books have different requirements for their stories. I can�t remember if we talked about his, but my favorite example is always "The Firm". Completely different in many ways. I�m going to read Laclos after I catch up, see how they compare, then see DL. (Evelyn)...photography, but I thought this was shot in a muted color- "ochre".Lent itself to the unpredictable undercurrent running through the plot . Cheryl would you pl. tell us of this photographic technique...if there was one? How observant! I have been waiting to be in touch with a cameraman who was on the set. I think he�s in NY soon. This, and other plans I had, I didn�t want to mention because if they didn�t work out I�d be bummed. (Moon)�was that a full wig he wore? When he is all wet I say yes, otherwise it seems that it could just be the pony tail. Whatever was needed. Hair grows over several weeks, and most of the interiors were shot at the end in Paris. (Moon)Agree with Evelyn wholeheartedly about the cinematography, sets and costumes. Very opulent production. Me too. And I�m always impressed by something different. A stunning amount of work, a stunning result. (Moon)During the film when the above seduction is taking place, did you notice the film gets very grainy on that close up? I wonder if Milos filmed it as a wider shot but then changed his mind and had to zoom in and re-film directly from the film. Cheryl, can you answer this? Will put this on my list of questions for the cameraman. Some things are etched in my mind (the people things), and some things I find I�m really wrong about when I check back with people or documents. (Cheryl) And that's the problem with the script, and that's the problem Colin had with the part, IMHO. Passive characters don't work... (Emma)I'm not sure it's the passivity that's the problem, but that Forman left so much out.. I finally put this notion of mine at the end, to think about in a "Conclusions" or "Summaries" section. It�s just there, to me, in the film, even after all these years. To start with, I rethought the sequences in the film. Now they look something like this to me: 1. MM discovers her lover is marrying Cecile 2. MM chooses V for revenge, but he�s pursuing MT 3. MM changes to CD for revenge, but MV discovers the liason 4. MM brings C to V, but MT confesses her attraction to V 5. V deflowers C and opposes C�s marriage, then pursues MT 6. V leaves MT, urges C�s marriage to D 7. MM and V challenge each other; V returns to MT 8. V returns to MM, but MM revenges herself on him So if I look at who instigated things, it really was MM. If she hadn�t wanted C to be deflowered (such an odd term), she�d never have made the bet with V. There wouldn�t have been any C or CD, no duel, and all we�d have is that maybe she�d be jealous of MT�s place in V�s heart. Or whatever. It also makes sense to talk about Milos� intentions and influences for the film separately from the sequences, since there were so many comments on them. Basically, my reasons are many, and it�s too confusing for me to jump around. But I tried to copy in relevant posts into my sections.

Milos My question to him would be :why did he feel that an accent was necessary for the lead male and not for the others? �The script too vernacular for the period.? V had to have as much class as could be bestowed on him in a modern film and still be watchable by medium-brow audiences. M likes accessible films, so he likes them in accessible language. English is his second language (or more, if you count Russian and whatever else he had to learn before left Czechoslovakia), and although he�s fluent and appreciates a well-written sentence (Salieri on Mozart�s music), he�s not going to choose sentence structures or words that are arcane. It wouldn�t serve him, or th goal of having a film watched by as many people as possible. He�s proud of bringing Mozart to the masses and that sort of thing. And to have made the language in V more aristocratic would have not only put some of the audience off, but would have distanced them from us; we could say, these people play these games, but we do not. Most of the problems are more universal in the film than in the book (I gather)--MT's problem is that of every married woman's. (Moon Dreams) Annette�s movie as well and she is wonderful. How could Milos have possibly considered Michelle P. for the role? She would have been, to his eye, as classy as Colin. We would have had more of a sense of their equality, desirability and complicity. My only casting question in V is Meg Tilly. And to think that Milos had wanted her to play Mozart�s wife in Amadeus baffles me as well. Amadeus was perfectly cast. I thought so too. There�s always the cost/benefit analysis. But you can�t argue with anybody who�s smitten. Colin and the old matron who played his aunt were absolutely charming and quite funny too. I loved her lines. That�s one of the many things I love about M's films--Bringing a wide variety of characters to the screen, as do many European and Asian directors. American movies would have you think the world is populated with 2 to 30 year olds, along with Harrison Ford, Jack Nicholson, and the usual male suspects. There was an old Star Trek (the original series) episode about a society where everybody dies at 30� (Renate) But we are not supposed to hate her for her speaking manners, are we?! :-p Which she uses, if I remember right, mainly when trying to be seducing: to Cecile and to Valmont. ???�It's just too obvious and unnatural, IMO, she could also wear a tag "Look what a great seductress I am". I prefer the "less is more - acting school". I've said that too, and usually that�s M�s strength, why I treasure my time with him so. But when it comes to women, subtlety is not always a virtue with him. Maybe because he grew up backstage. And he is of a certain age, and a certain place. (heide) (Cheryl) So it�s MM�s film, really, but it�s called Valmont, so that�s confusing. Agree it's confusing. Any idea on why the title Valmont was chosen? arami)Maybe simply because he was a more sympathetic character, more complex and capable of reform, and she was ultimately just a scheming bitch? ;-) According to M. He really thinks men, all of them, really don�t cause that much harm, unless of course they�re Nazis or Communists. Political oppression is a bad thing, but there�s no such thing as sexual oppression or even annoyance. He wonders if they can change, and in the film, he's open to the possiblity, but MM tells him no, they can't. With friends like that... (Evelyn)(Renate) Just a thought: This Valmont seems to be a big boy, not very passionate, but to whom making love is as natural as drinking and eating or any kind of sportive activity. Passion means you care, and who wants to do that? It was interesting to see this interpretation by Milos Forman. For CF plays Valmont as a "bonhomie with a big libido" rather than a despicable predator. My question to Cheryl (when you have time) : Did you get any knowledge of how CF personally interpreted the character of Valmont.? Did he and MF see "eye -to -eye ? Even if you�re sleeping with an actor (if he/she knows what they're doing), you don�t know how they prepare their roles, or even what they think about their characters. You see the actions. So I know only what I observed on set, but I had been watching M direct for months prior to this and hearing his critiques of us directing and actors acting. A number of films have "soft" endings (AMITC, for one,) this one didn�t make as much sense as it could have. The end was based on an experience M had, and that makes it difficult for the actor playing an alter ego. The writer/director really thinks something is in the story, but it�s not, to a strangers' eyes and ears. An example of something which was food for thought was the tavern scene, as I mentioned months ago. All the extras from MT�s exterior market scene are there, an interesting lot. It was �t clear what M wanted from CF, and CF was frustrated. In this sequence, he�s pretty much decided to kill himself�suicide by duel. There�s the power we see when he charges Danceny. When people decide to kill themselves, usually they�re calm, because everything will be ok soon. But there�s also generally an upswing; friends think the person is strong and in charge of their lives again. From the time V slaps MM and the duel papers are served on him, the story just unravels. M is usually excruciatingly clear to actors, but this time it didn�t hang together. V didn�t have to be more despicable or more the predator, just sharper. And that�s what I saw bubbling up in a great many takes (different shots, different scenes.) Only a few people in a production can judge how well something's going by what they see on the set�-famously, if the crew laughs while you�re making a comedy, you�re in trouble. Many things come together to make a sequence work. But how to play the ending was in debate. I'd like to hink about that when I get there I (seq. 8) (Karen)(Cheryl) He thinks most men are great guys. He thinks men simply cannot cause as much harm to women as women can to men. With the exception of a Loreena Bobbit, I don't agree at all with that last statement. B-b-but, in Forman's defense, DL was also written by a man. ;-) You don�t think men can�t cause as much harm, or you don�t think Milos thinks that?

away, italics!

away, italics! Something I always wanted to ask: Why is it called "italics"? Why not, lets say, "greeks", or "germans" or "frenchies"... ?

Re: The significance of Valmont's accent in casting of the role: Let me ask again: Could someone please at last quote what Milos Forman himself wrote about it, instead of repeating what one or another thinks he meant?

BTW, Renate: they're called italics, because they were introduced to printing by an Italian. One Aldo Manuzio from Venice.

(Bethan) Best scene for me, by the way, is the magnificent dance sequence with the four women in his life! I love this scene also. Favorite moment - at the end of the dance with MTwhen he turns her into him and his arms are around her with their cheeks almost touching. V. romantic indeed. (Heide) Didn't y'all get a little thrill when he hoists Meg (I mean MT) up on the horse with him. So strong, so effortless...okay, he grunted a bit. Hon, don't you know it? I can't think of anything intellectual to add to this discussion but will second your motion as to the delights of this particular scene :-).

1. MM discovers her lover is marrying Cecile (Heide)She had a tough role and perhaps would have been stronger if she could have made the audience feel some understanding or sympathy for her character. Or is that going completely against Laclos's intention? One of my favorite scenes (ending that sequence) is when MM discovers who C will marry. Cecile begs MM to find out who her husband is to be. MM says she'll try. It�s amazing to me what she goes through in this sequence. She faces a lover who tells her maybe she should get another lover; he doesn�t know when he will see her again. She finds that her lover is marrying Cecile, and that she is the one who is known to MV and perhaps others as "a mistress who�s hard to get rid of and a little �" I liked th look on AB�s face when Gercourt turns around, and the interchange between JJ and AB. I don�t know what sort of person she is yet, but what a raw deal. I can't remember if I felt sympathy the first time I saw this scene, but I did when I saw it again recently.

2. MM chooses V for revenge, but he�s pursuing MT (Moon Dreams) Does Valmont have intentions of seducing Madame de Tourvel before Madame de Merteuil comes into the picture Seems like a lark to me.

3. MM changes to CD for revenge, but MV discovers the liason (Moon)Not play the part, she would have been a virgin on her wedding night had it not been for MM inciting V to play his seduction game with her. (Karen)I saw Cecile as being very eager. She may have gotten Danceny to do more than just leave her notes in the harp with or without MM's intervention. True, but hard to know what from the movie. I agree with comments that FB was the perfect child/woman, shifting back and forth between budding womanhood and awkward teenager. She was also fresh from the convent. Had she not been, she would have been so much more skilled in her relations with men and Danceny, had D even been interesting to her at that point. I loved the way they swapped letters in the hideaway and just stood there, reading them. And him correcting her playing, even there. And his twelve verses. The clumsiness, C slipping as she comes back with the note from the harp and D dropping his sword, his harp, etc. D�s exit went on a little too long for me, but the agony of the situation is that of a boy/man. The exit sets up such a contrast with later. I have this clumsy-exit image in the back of my mind, and then I see him fight Gercourt. Then I see him try to give V a way out of the duel, but from his outing with Gercourt I know that he�s not one to be pushed around. Pushing him around is the onl possibility in V's besotted state, and however much I want there to be another way out, it�s inevitable that the clumsy harp-dropper will kill V quickly. D�s accent bothered me�too American, jarring.

4. MM brings C to V, but MT confesses attraction to V (Heide)Does anyone know what Valmont says to his aunt before he leaves for Paris?� Am I correct in making out the last words as "Trust me."? Great touch ;-) The seduction sequence. What an awfully long way V, MT, and MM go. By the end, MM realizes V feels something for MT which is new to her, and she�s jealous of MT. MT breaks down and actually tells V she�s his for the taking. I�m not sure what V�s up to in the last scene, and that�s great, but I do, like MM, believe he cares for her. That doesn�t mean he will leave MT alone, but he isn�t going to crush her, either. Kindness from a predator has an overwhelming effect. After his dance with MT�oh my. Had I there that evening, I�d have been annoyed. Since I wasn�t, I can imagine such a pas de deux in my future. Someone mentioned the archery scene. It seemed flat to me, and I wish it didn�t. However, when CF says, walking away, "I don�t know," it�s the first time I think there may be something interesting in this guy. I still think it�s all a scheme, but there�s a niggle of a thought that it might be more interesting than that.

5. V deflowers C, opposes C�s marriage, and pursues MT I still would have done the letter-writing scene differently, but CF was perfect. It�s fun to see V taunting MM (and incidentally; sewing the seeds of his future destruction by outraging MV) by championing marriages of love. Not everyone looks good on a horse. Heartstopping scene: when MT takes off her scarlet hood and V steps into the room. Even though we saw him racing off, it was a magnificent surprise. Another "oh my." I love the twist in the breakfast scene�V has done what MM wants, but he could still deny her her victory if Cecile doesn�t marry Gercourt. A lively scene. "Where is everybody?" ;-)

D�s accent bothered me�too American, jarring. Not important enough a character to attach too much significance to it, apparently. According to MF.

He also frolicked w/ ET. How could we take him seriously?

(Laura) He also frolicked w/ET. How could we take him seriously? I knew there was something that bothered me about him. Touche, Laura. (Cheryl)4. MM brings C to V, but MT confesses attraction to V...when CF says, walking away, "I don�t know," it�s the first time I think there may be something interesting in this guy. I still think it�s all a scheme, but there�s a niggle of a thought that it might be more interesting than that. One of my favorite scenes for precisely that reason. We don't know if it's part of his game or if he's let his mask drop. MT-"Why do you keep trying?" V-"I don't even know"... and walks away. (Cheryl) Heartstopping scene: when MT takes off her scarlet hood and V steps into the room. Even though we saw him racing off, it was a magnificent surprise. Another "oh my." Oh my, I do agree. I love a man on a mission. Reminds me of Darcy, the avenging angel.

Re: The significance of Valmont's accent in casting of the role: Let me ask again: Could someone please at last quote what Milos Forman himself wrote about it, instead of repeating what one or another thinks he meant? This is from MF's book. The only mention of casting CF.(On Casting) "I found it much harder to cast Valmont. I auditioned many American actors and several of them had the combination of raw virility, awareness, and quick-thinking charm that I associated with the role, but their accents just didn't go with the gold-embroidered waistcoats, the filigreed swords, Valmont's ingrained fine manners. I saw the man as an aristocrat who was absolutely secure in his bloodlines and class; American voices undermined that impression to my immigrant ear. I finally reconciled myself t the fact that I'd only accept an Englishman in the role and concentrated my casting efforts on the Eastern shores of the Atlantic, where I finally chose Colin Firth, a young Englishman who had played a variety of roles in British films." [p.285] "Madame de Tournvel was easy to cast. I immediately saw Meg Tilly as the virtuous wife whom Valmont seduces on a dare and for whom he falls hard." [p.285] Other tidbits:"Before I can direct a scene, I have to tie it somehow to my own frame of reference. I need to test the authenticity of the characters and their behavior against something I myself have felt or experienced. Understanding the character of Valmont in Les Liaisons Dangereuses wasn't difficult. All my life, I've had relationships with women-some long, some brief. I have spent a lot of time in pursuit of the intoxication and grace that occurs when the whole world falls awa from you and your lover. This state, by necessity, never lasts, but while it does, it is like nothing else." [p.283] "In my version of the story, Valmont searches for this very feeling. He is a womanizer, a libertine with a long history of conquests, but only because he is seeking a deeper relationship. When he finds it, ironically with Madame de Tourvel, the prudish wife of a judge, it scares him so much that he drives her away and throws himself into a suicidal duel." [p.283] "Valmont's longest-lasting relationship in the book, however, is with his female counterpart, Madame de Merteuil. She has wit, charm, and as much experience with the opposite sex as he. She is his equal in all things. He boasts, competes, and confides in her, but the real nature of their relationship in the book remains enigmatic: the relationship between Valmont and Merteuil is like the strange flirtation that often develops between a director and his leading lady. At least that's what has always hap ened to me." [p.284]

Thank you, Karen - I auditioned many American actors and several of them had the combination of raw virility, awareness, and quick-thinking charm that I associated with the role, but their accents just didn't go with the gold-embroidered waistcoats,... Ah, so he found an actor who had not only the required accent but also the required combination...virility, awareness, and quick-thinking charm. What a find. I hope Evelyn returns before this discussion winds down to a crawl. Not that I don't appreciate the wit, wisdom, and lust that has already been expressed but I miss her comments as well as a few others who haven't posted. I'm not naming names.

Thanks Karen, v. interesting. I have not reafd the book and appreciate these insights. "Valmont's longest-lasting relationship in the book, however, is with his female counterpart, Madame de Merteuil. She has wit, charm, and as much experience with the opposite sex as he. She is his equal in all things. He boasts, competes, and confides in her, but the real nature of their relationship in the book remains enigmatic: the relationship between Valmont and Merteuil is like the strange flirtation that often develops between a director and his leading lady. At least that's what has always happened to me." So even MF says that V loves MM. Just like the director falling for his leading lady. "Madame de Tournvel was easy to cast. I immediately saw Meg Tilly as the virtuous wife whom Valmont seduces on a dare and for whom he falls hard." We can thank MF for getting them together.

(Moon) So even MF says that V loves MM. Just like the director falling for his leading lady. No, he calls it a "strange flirtation." This part--from the MT quote--sounds more like love to me: "he is seeking a deeper relationship. When he finds it, ironically with Madame de Tourvel...it scares him so much that he drives her away and throws himself into a suicidal duel." As Kirsten discussed many a post ago, the book and the film Valmont are different. I was watching the American Masters program on Forman and it is interesting how he discusses how he remembered the book so differently. It did become a different story. Since there are questions about his casting of ET's little buddy as CD, I will type those up for you. Maybe tomorrow. Also, I owe you, Moon, that evidence from the book. I haven't forgotten. Where are you Evelyn? Aren't you back? Catching up with this great discussion?

(Karen), This part--from the MT quote--sounds more like love to me: "he is seeking a deeper relationship. When he finds it, ironically with Madame de Tourvel...it scares him so much that he drives her away and throws himself into a suicidal duel." V seems to be v. happy with the way he is. Why would he seek a deeper relantionship? I did not get this from the film. Also his suicidal duel is not solely driven by by MT, MM has her part in it too.

From the sidelines again.... Heide, don't be disheartened by the lack of contributors! The standard of this discussion is so high that I'm just sitting back and enjoying it! Keep up the good work!

(Karen), This part--from the MT quote--sounds more like love to me: "he is seeking a deeper relationship. When he finds it, ironically with Madame de Tourvel...it scares him so much that he drives her away and throws himself into a suicidal duel." (Moon Dreams)V seems to be v. happy with the way he is. Why would he seek a deeper relantionship? I did not get this from the film. Also his suicidal duel is not solely driven by by MT, MM has her part in it too. That's my feeling too, Moon Dreams. This is the split I see, between what MF intends (intended) to do, what he thought he did, and how it seems to the viewer. I don't believe MF is telling the truth, and as we've discussed re CF, why should he? I rarely believe what any experienced public figure says, and when they do, I'm extremely appreciative, even if I don't like what they say. MF knows most people wouldn't want a main character who was a libertine and not interested in changing. Didn't someone sa in Laclos' book that V had his own revenge motive for getting involved in MM's scheme? Not a desire for a better character, not a desire for any kind of relationship at all (transcendent, kinky, or otherwise). So, the "seeking a deeper relationship" part I think is absurd, unless it's the kind of deeper relationship you can have with a Playboy Bunny. Which is not to be dismissed, as long as the context is clear. What he says he did and what I see are far apart, further apart than with any other of his films. For V to feel for MT I did see, and that it bothered him was pretty clear. Evelyn!! She's the one who wanted to do V next!! I hope she returns!! I miss you Evelyn!!

I hope it's OK to jump in here. I've been enjoying the Valmont discussion v. much. It's one of my favorite period dramas. For some reason I really hated DL. I think I never accepted that hundreds of women slept with JM. He is entirely too creepy. My favorite scene in Valmont was the letter writing scene. That voice was so sexy that I was completely ready to be seduced. Valmont could give Darcy a few pointers on writing letters. Just a note on the casting of Valmont-earlier this year or last year, I read in the people section of the newspaper that David Duchovny lost the role of Valmont to Colin Firth. When I read this I remember thinking that losing this role must have really bothered DD because he was mentioning it so many years later. I'm grateful that he did because I don't think DD has the emotional range in his acting that CF does.

Of course, you may jump in Sue--especially when you have *delicious* little tidbits like this one. David Duchovny!? You're so right, he would have failed miserably. He has *no* range to speak of. I feel the same way about JM--physically, but maybe he had extra special talents that the ladies gossiped about. Such skills could overcome a rather unattractive countenance. ;-) Re Casting: The part about casting Cecile and Danceny wasn't worth retyping. All he wanted to do was keep the ages true to the book. "That two teenagers receive their sentimental education in the beds of the principals, and I was resolved to keep the age of the actors as low as it was in the novel because of real innocence--the curiosity, the excitability, the bluffing and the sexual clumsiness--is very hard to recapture once it has gone." Re: Love (of the Valmont type) This is from Letter No. 52--V to MT, which he does not send first to MM to preview as he did with Letter No. 47 and then invites her to have a good laugh at what he has written to MT: "What after all, was I guilty of but a failure to struggle against the whirlpool into which I had been cast? I came into society young and inexperienced; I was passed, so to speak, from hand to hand by a series of women all of whom, in their readiness to succumb, seemed in a hurry to anticipate what they felt would inevitably be an unfavourable opinion of themselves. Was it for me to set an example of resistance, when no resistance was offered me? Should I have punished myself for momentary aberrations to which very often I had been encouraged, by promising fidelity which would certainly have been unnecessary, and could only have been regarded as ridiculous? Pah! What else but breaking it off immediately can excuse a shameful connexion? "Yet I think I may say that this disorder of the senses--perhaps, too, it was inflamed vanity--never touched my heart. My heart was made for love: intrigue might serve for distraction, it was never my whole concern. I was surrounded by seductive but contemptible creatures; none of them could reach my soul. I was offered pleasure: I sought virtue. At length, because I happened to be fastidious and sensitive, I began to think myself inconstant. "When I met you my eyes were opened: I soon realized that love depends for its charms on qualities of the soul: only they can provoke it to an excess which only they can excuse. And finally I found that it was as impossible for me to keep from loving you as it would be to love anyone but you. "You see, Madame, to what sort of heart you are afraid to yield, the heart whose fate it is for you to determine. Whatever the destiny you hold in store for it, you will never alter the feelings by which it is bound to you. They are as unchanging as the virtues that gave them being." ******** Yes, he's a great letter writer!! Maybe I'm just too much of a softie and am reading way too much into these words.

Since I've taken the plunge on this board, I will relate one other Valmont related item. In this month's Movieline magazine there was an article on Annette Bening and the author went on about how fantastic she was as MM. In the same issue there was a little article on Fairuza Balk and listed some of her credits but no mention of Valmont. Article says she is 24,but the picture of her looks pretty scary and she looks about 10 years older. Two Valmont actors in one issue. Wow! Too bad it wasn't CF.

David Duchovny lost the role of Valmont to Colin Firth And so did Richard E. Grant (and quite a bunch of others) - if anyone wants to know.

I like Richard E. Grant. he's wonderful!!!

Since Valmont is on its last legs, how about a new film November 15? Some of us have used up too many precious brain cells on Valmont so, as Karen suggests, how about some Colin-lite? Any suggestions?

Lighter than Fever Pitch?

Hmmm how about Circle of Friends?

Re: next film discussion....(Laura) Hmmm how about Circle of Friends? That's not Colin-lite....all that Catholic stuff!! Let's decide soon though...so some of us can read the corresponding book. Actually, this guy hasn't done anything humorous except for FP. Camille is short...but talk about a "downer". Anyway, I picked Valmont so I'll go along with the crowd. ..

(Bethan)The standard of this discussion is so high that I'm just sitting back and enjoying it! You said it in a nutshell, Bethan. (No pun intended). I have just finished reading the 70 postings that you all made while I was gone...really, the discussion got better and better. I have nothing to add. I am awed.

How about Dutch Girls?

Sounds good to me :-) When do we start?

I HATED Dutch Girls!!!! Well, was extremely hung over when watched and I DON'T own it. Karen, dear, you know how much I respect you:)

(Laura) I HATED Dutch Girls!!!! Sometimes after a film discussion I change my mind.... I hated Fever Pitch...(don't kill me)... at first. And while it is not among my CF faves...I learned to appreciate the nuances of the film . (Though I still think it's a football film) :-) Let's go for it,Ahuntie Laura. Be a sweet sport.

Where will I get Dutch Girls??? Suggestions? I guess I'll just follow everyone's thought on this one.

(Evelyn)Let's go for it,Ahuntie Laura. Be a sweet sport. *Big Whine* But I don't own it:( Karen, dear;) hee hee.

I don't have it either, so I'll hum along as well. HOTP is kinda funny; did ya'll ever do that? Maybe next or next?

Well, sports fans, DG is available, used VHS, for $6.99 at Reel.com. Availability 2-3 days.

A help to make up your mind:

"I give to you and you give to me"....Neil, honey!! How about one in his cute shorts?

(Karen)How about one in his cute shorts? His thighs are thinner in this film.....they really beefed up those thighs in P&P. Thanks Cheryle for sleuthing DG copies.

Thighs? In shorts? Where?! :-p,,, I have to watch DG - ooops - Dutch Girls - soon. Karen, I'm afraid I have no such pics, but add some others soon to the archives. Oh, if only Nan would find time to start her Snappy machine and capture my favourite looks, i.e. his look and turning of the head before Lyndon Baines says "I'm off to the bog...". One of the greatest understated comedy moments, accentuated by the immediately following most disgusting comedy moment ever.... Meanwhile, and for some more warming up, here's a wealth of other Snappies on Sharon's page

Sorry I meant to take you to the Dutch Girls Killerlooks directly, but apparently this highly commercial page host doesn't work that way. You have to click "Killerlooks" and, what else, "Dutch Girls" to get there.

This is it, hopefully.

(Renate) Thighs? In shorts? Where?! :-p Remember, the game they play against the Dutch hockey club, when all the boys are only interested in going to the disco that night? They lose horribly as a result and are berated in the locker room afterward. Anyway, Colin (and the team) are wearing short shorts. yum yum If is not up at a site, then I fear someone needs to lock Nan in her apartment and get her to Snappify this and other *adorable* looks in DG and there are many. Angelic and other. ;-)

Sorry to cut in here Karen, but, what has happened to Swept Away? Lately, I've been thinking maybe a re-male of my Truffaut favorite: Jules et Jim. Colin and Jonathan might be well matched together, and, that would make Laura v.v. happy I'm sure. Just think of the lucky actress!!!

I could be that actress, Moon:) I'm cute, blonde, could fake a great Italian accent (okay total lie here:))

Thanks Renate for alerting us to the DG pics. Love the way he casually wears that scarf in the film.Do you think Sharon would mind if we used the pics during our discussion? FYI reel.com says they have Dutch Girls. Amazon says they can get the screenplay . I ordered it and also Apartment Zero and Circle of Friends. Talked to Nan tonight. She says hi to everybody. Busy, Busy. Lotsa' work and projects that have to be completed.Poor baby.

Was wondering if Moon and Cheryl have been successful at getting Dutch Girls. We can hold off the discussion until you (and others) do and have a real chance to capture the sweetness and innocence that is Neil Truelove. ;-) Does anyone need any help getting this film? If so, e-mail Karen and me at nomdedrool@yahoo.com

Didn't mean to leave you out, Laura, dear. But I think your hinting may have worked already?

Dutch Girls sounds like a good idea!

Dutch Girls would be great. I haven't seen it but I'd like to hear about it all the same. Tried to order it at Reel -thanks to Cheryl- and hope for the best. So I may be able to catch up later on.

From the Austen list: Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:58:43 -0500 From: Linda Veronika Troost Subject: My new book! Dear list, I am delighted to report that my book JANE AUSTEN IN HOLLYWOOD, edited with my husband, is now available (University Press of Kentucky, 1998). It's a collection of essays on the film and television versions of 1995-96. In general, the films come off pretty well so don't fear academic savaging of them. In fact, it's not aimed at academics alone, despite the University Press imprint. It's a book for lovers of Austen. Most bookstores both on- and off-line should be able to get it for you. Hope you enjoy it! My husband and I certainly loved working on it (and know you see why I have been so silent on the list lately--exhaustion!). Yours, Linda Troost (editor with Sayre Greenfield) PS. If you are in the Northern New Jersey area, Sayre and I will be on a channel 12 show "Jersey's Talking" on Friday the 13th of November at 8 pm. The topic will be the Austen movies. That's all I know. Ordered Dutch Girls, so go right ahead and I'll catch up.

Where's the fire? We can hold off on the Dutch Girls discussion until everyone who has ordered it from reel.com has it. (Kirsten)Tried to order it at Reel -thanks to Cheryl- and hope for the best. Was there a problem? If you didn't get an immediate confirmation from them, don't worry. They've slowed down ever since they got so big and started gobbling up other enterprises. Anyway, unless there's been a deluge of orders of DGs (as a result of the posting) and demand has outstripped supply, you should get a confirmation w/in a 2-3 days. Chin up.

Before we start on DG, I finally got this and didn't want all my effort to be *entirely* wasted!

Is that Cheryle talking with Milos? (heehee) Great pix--look at him smile! I plan to order my copy of DG, thanks for the info.

From Karen...the scanner .....congrats. We can hold off on the Dutch Girls discussion until everyone who has ordered from reel.com has it. I'm for that...let's wait. More funner when everyone joins in. "sides, I'm trying to get the book and....you got it....it's out of print.

(Moon) Is that Cheryle talking with Milos? (heehee) Is it? ;-)

If it is, I don't know how she resisted jumping in bed herself! Maybe with a long hat pin to stick Meg with. (Calma i bollenti spiriti)

Moon, very mean indeed, :)

Laura, I checked myself right away : (Calma i bollenti spiriti) see.

(Moon) Calma i bollenti spiriti) Translation, please. The Italian is really flying around today. Over on #97 Bethan is speaking Italian...I swear. (Hitting the Chardonnay, Beth?) I received Apartment Zero from reel.com today. Order if you don't have it. They must have them in stock. I got a used one..cheap...And a $5. phone card included.Have we ever discussed AZ on Drool?

(Evelyn) I received Apartment Zero from reel.com today. Order if you don't have it. Wow, that was fast. Haven't gotten my bona fide copy of DG (with scannable video jacket yet) :( They must have them in stock. Reel.com bought one of the video chains (Hollywood or West Coat Video, I forget, and they're even advertising on TV. Must have access to lots of old CF videos now. Have we ever discussed AZ on Drool? No, but I'm sure we will! ;-)

(Karen)Was there a problem? No, just thought there might be because it's a used version and if all droolers tried ... but received my shipping statement two days ago. So if the parcel won't get lost on it's way (as my HOTP tape first does) ... I'm optimistic to have it soon it my VCR:-) (Evelyne)Have we ever discussed AZ on Drool? I just saw again yesterday and the same question occurred to me. I think there's quite a lot to talk about. (Karen)No, but I'm sure we will! ;-) Glad to hear this, I'm looking forward to it.

I just paid $140 to the Internic to register these two names, firth.com and colinfirth.com. Time to crank up the pledge drive again! List of Domains Count Domain Name Invoice Number Amount Due 1 firth.com 2193175 70.00 2 colinfirth.com 2234835 70.00 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you for using the On-Line Payment System. If you wish to pay for another domain, click on the Start button. If you have completed your transactions, click on Quit to exit the system and visit the Network Solutions Home Page. So now they should kick back in. Sorry folks!

I just paid $140 to the Internic to register these two names, firth.com and colinfirth.com. Time to crank up the pledge drive again! This is a terrific website and the editors have employed a lot of effort. I congratulate them all. BUT Terry...Nan....Renate....Arami.... Pl. enlighten me. I was firmly told that firth.com didnot belong to Drool. That it is a separate entity. Why do they now need funds? Why come to Drool?

(Kirsten)Glad to hear this, I'm looking forward to it. There might be others ahead of it, though. Know there is a vocal contingent out there wanting to discuss MOTM...;-) Speak up now or forever hold your piece. Maybe not. ;-)

firth.com and colinfirth.com belong to the Spring. And they are keep alive by voluteer efforts and funding. Should we fund them by getting an advertiser? If so, who would be interested in putting ads on this site? A movie company?

(Karen)There might be others ahead of it, though. Know there is a vocal contingent out there wanting to discuss MOTM...;-) Speak up now or forever hold your piece. Maybe not. ;-) Well, in that case, I feel tempted to second the crowd voting for MOTM. I haven't seen it yet but wouldn't mind a discussion about a film I haven't seen. I read the book some months ago and was somehow intrigued by Stephen's character, so I'm very interested to hear about Colin's performance in that movie. Sorry, Karen, hope you won't stop playing with me now;-)

(Kirsten) Sorry, Karen, hope you won't stop playing with me now;-) I'm an EOP (equal opportunity player)! I'm for MOTM and for Tumbledown. They are both on my *want to* lists. (Suggest you check with Renate about MOTM.)

(Evelyn), Calma i bollenti spiriti) Translation, please. It's a more formal way of saying: Chill Out. I'm happy we're doing DG, don't have my copy yet, though. I did not like MOTM much.

(Moon) I did not like MOTM much. Them's fightin' words round here (for some people, that is)! ;-) But, hey, I didn't like A0. But let's not start that up again, just yet.... ;-P

Hey last night while chatting with Karen (in between coughs and blowing of nose) I happen to see in my local TV Guide that Ruth Rendell Mysteries were on. And Lo and behold, CF is on my screen!!! Made my daughter real happy, I can tell ya. MOTM was on Providence Public TV!!!! hmmm... wonder if they'll rebroadcast?

(Karen), But, hey, I didn't like A0. I really liked AO! It was a truly challenging film for an actor. The script was v. weird (especially the end:YUK!) But its different enough for my cinematic taste. My problem with MOTM is with the story, I don't care much for RR. But,I always look forward to seeing CF.

(Laura), Made my daughter real happy Have you hooked your daughter on CF? (Heehee) How does she feel about JF?

She thinks Mr Darcy is cuter:)

Maybe she says that to humour her mummy :)

Right, she really prefers Mr. Collins;p

Sneak Peek Shall we set a date to start?

I received my copy today! Where is Cheryle? She was so kind to alert us all for the purchase of the tape. Ready when you are!